The Kirtland Temple

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here with the formidable Ian Wilkes. How are you, sir?

I am feeling formidable this evening.

Jim Bennett. Have I called you formidable before?

No, no, I've called you formidable and I was kind of jealous when I actually gave you the title. I was hoping that might be returned and tonight is the night.

Tonight is the night.

And I feel equally formidable.

This is lovely. This is lovely. I thought that word had been used but I wasn't sure when. So we've decided to jump on here because news has broken. We're a little bit slow to this. This happened I think 2 days days ago, uh, but, uh, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has negotiated a sale of a number of church historical sites and artifacts that are currently owned by the Community of Christ, which is formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The sale price was $192.5 million and includes the following historical sites and items: the Kirtland Temple, which is what everybody's talking about, but also the Smith family homestead in Nauvoo, the Mansion House in Nauvoo, the Red Brick Store in Nauvoo— that's where Joseph introduced the endowment for the first time, in the upper rooms of the Red Brick Store— manuscripts and the Bible used in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Holy Bible, personal letters and paintings of Joseph and Emma Smith, and a document labeled Caractors, C-A-R-A-C-T-O-R-S, which purports to contain a sample of inscriptions from the gold plates. And I think there are a few, a number of other things here, but that's the bulk of the sale. And members of the church are celebrating Members of the Community of Christ have a much more mixed reaction. I watched a video by Lachlan McKay, who's one of the apostles in the Community of Christ, and you can see the heartbreak in this because I don't think they wanted to sell these things. But the Community of Christ is significantly smaller than the Brighamite Church in Utah, and, and is in sort of dire financial straits. They have a paid ministry, unlike— well, we have a paid ministry in terms of our senior church leaders. I, I always kind of get frustrated when they say, well, we have no paid ministry. Well, no, in fact we do, but it only applies to the General Authorities, the upper echelons of the church. But a lot of this money is going to go toward a pension fund for the aging pastors of the Community of Christ, and it's going to put them on fairly firm financial footing for at least a decade or so. And a lot of these people in the Community of Christ have also felt like they haven't had the resources to maintain these these sites the way they probably ought to be maintained. And the Church certainly does have those resources and is going to employ all of those. And so I think there will be improvements made to them. But we've been promised that the Kirtland Temple is not going to be transformed into a working temple. It will remain a historical site, which is a good thing. But a lot of people are lamenting the fact that It's also going to become a missionary tool. You know, I've been to Kirtland and you've been to Kirtland. It's been 30 years. I only went there once. And I remember going to the Newell K. Whitney Store in Kirtland, which is owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that was very much a missionary experience. That was when the books The Work and the Glory were very popular. And I remember we mentioned that in the tour. The missionary said, you know, that's fiction, right? Because we've had people coming through who have been praying for Joshua Steed to get baptized. He was the black sheep of this, of the family, of the fictional family. But, uh, it— that was very much a missionary sort of presentation. We had a couple missionaries that walked us through, and it was very much, this is all in context of the Restoration. Then we went to the Kirtland Temple, and a guy in a long ponytail and sort of a t-shirt walked us through, and the, the vibe was very, very different. But he was very respectful and very focused on the history rather than focused on a proselyting message. And everything I'm seeing from people who've gone through is that that has been the focus of the Community of Christ in terms of leading people in tours through the Kirtland Temple. And they're lamenting the fact that that's likely to go away. And instead, we're going to get kind of a canned proselyting effort that's an awful lot like every other sort of historical site that the church manages. And so that's been kind of the downside to a lot of people. But, you know, tell me about your experience in Kirtland and also what you're hearing out there.

Yes. Yes. Thank you, Jim Bennett. We— when we used to go on holiday over the years when we were active, committed, devoted members, we almost always tried to incorporate a day or two to include the temple in the holiday sites that we've attended, like Europe, you know, the German— Germany Temple. When we come over to America, the States, coming over from England at the time, we'd go to the LA temple or the Seattle temple, or depending where we would try to take in the temple. And on two occasions, Jim, we did the, we did the, uh, upstate New York, uh, holiday vacation a couple of times. Went to Toronto, Buffalo, all upstate New York, the Finger Lakes, I think we call them, in upstate New York. We used to take New York in. And on two occasions, we drove east to northeastern Ohio because we always wanted to see the Kirtland Temple. One time I went with my family. The second time I actually went with more of us in the family, brother-in-law and other family members, etc. We all headed east and we have some wonderful experiences at that time at the Kirtland Temple. One time was, I remember, a beautiful spring, late spring evening, incredibly peaceful, very spiritual. Again, we were very active at the time. We attended the tour on that particular day, like we did the second time. And on that day we got us, we persuaded the tour guide to give us, we were very persuasive and with our accents, I think, and said that we, you know, we don't come here very often. We managed to persuade the tour guide to give us an extended unofficial tour and he took us to rooms that were not on the official tour, including right at the very top where he said that there'd been some other visitations historically, Holy of Holies section. And these stairs, these creaky stairs that we went to, we went right up to the top of like an attic type place. And then we went into the lower basement areas of the temple. And that was the, when the tour had finished and we kind of hung around and he said, just wait for a little bit and we'll take you on these other sites. We're able to see a much more extended tour of the temple. It was a very profound experience for us that evening. I remember there were fireflies, Jim, in the grounds of the Kirtland Temple. There was only us there at that particular time. The tour, the official tour, finished. People had gone home. It was dusk. Incredibly spiritual, a beautiful building. You could feel the history just, uh, just went through your, your body. There was an extraordinary atmosphere, feeling of history, and, uh, and actually felt, uh, some of the, uh, the tribulations. We were talking about some of the trials and tribulations that the members, including Joseph Smith, went through at that time. We did a lot of, you know, prior to going to the Kirtland Temple, did a lot of research on the history of the temple, but it was an extraordinary building that was built and constructed, dedicated in, in a very extraordinary period during the restoration of the church, as you well know. So we, we had two, uh, visits there. Uh, one was— both were profound, and the other one was a little bit more so because of that extended, uh, tour. But it always held a very special place in our hearts. It's a very historical site. You have the Curtin Historical Society. We met, uh, we actually went there and met some of those people. There's the graveyard not far away, and some of the, um, very well-known members that, uh, buried in the, uh, in the graveyard there. And, uh, just a, just an extraordinary, uh, experience. And since the announcement came out that the church has acquired the temple for the $194 million, I think it was, or $192, I think, where it was, uh, I've seen two different figures, uh, my, uh, uh, social media feeds have been abuzz with excitement, um, activity relating to this acquisition, from comments from, uh, the church has been pursuing this, this sacred historical structure for some time, and we know that it's— I do know that from speaking to different general authorities that it's been a, um, you know, the loss of that building in the history has been a difficult one for the, for the church to, uh, to accept. And so there's some, um, comments that I've seen that finally it's been returned to its rightful owner and steward, from comments to saying that this is a sign of the times, uh, with the what's going on in the world, that this is an indication that Christ's second coming is closer, that he will appear in the temple, in the Kirtland Temple, that it eventually will be restored to an active, fully operating, uh, temple, be rededicated. I've even heard comments like that, and I know the church has said that it won't be But the comments I'm reading that with people I know quite well, they're saying that this is a, you know, very significant sacred event and it will be restored and revelation will, will continue to become reestablished and, and will pour through that temple in the, in the last days. So I'm seeing all kinds of comments and another new audiences that have been lost that will be restored to the temple as well. And so, you know, we know that Elijah and Elias and Moses appeared, also Christ appeared in the temple. We know that the temple was dedicated by the Prophet Joseph Smith. And so it's a very extraordinary, significant historical, spiritual time, I think, in the church, the evolution of the church. And I'm seeing just many, many comments with excitement and a buzz with the meaning of this and the timing of this in the context of what's going on in the world and all the troubles that we're facing.

Yeah, it's really kind of strange to hear some of them, particularly the idea that this is going to be transformed into a working temple because there were no endowments ever given of the Kirtland Temple. The function of the Kirtland Temple was primarily as a meetinghouse. It was never the kind of temple that we have now. We do have assurances from the Church that it's not going to be transformed into that, but I'm seeing a lot of people saying, well, yeah, but the Church also said that they weren't going to gut the Salt Lake Temple, and they did. And they weren't going to gut the Manti Temple, and they almost did before the outcry stopped it. So the church's track record on this is, is not as trustworthy as we might have. But, but to sort of transform this temple into something that it was never intended to be, I think would be a huge mistake. And one of the reasons I don't think it's likely to happen is that I had an experience in 1993 my grandmother, who was the youngest child of Heber J. Grant, the last surviving child of Heber J. Grant, passed away. And the Grant family, the descendants of Heber J. Grant, have regular reunions even to this day, even though pretty much everybody who remembers firsthand Heber J. Grant has, has, has passed away. That generation has You know, that was my father's generation, and there, there's a precious few of them left. But at the time, the president of the temple was a descendant of Heber J. Grant, and he invited— as all of these family had sort of descended on Salt Lake for my grandmother's funeral, he said, let's hold a Grant family reunion in the upper rooms of the Salt Lake Temple. And so we all gathered in the upper rooms. All of us who had temple recommends at the time gathered in the upper room of the Salt Lake Temple. And I don't know if people realize this, but the upper half of the Salt Lake Temple— when I talk about the upper rooms, I mean, there are some meeting rooms for the Quorum of the Twelve, there's a sort of a little locker room where they change into their endowment clothes, uh, there's upper meeting rooms for the Seventy and all those kinds of things. There's also sort of a a canopy that's over the Holy of Holies, and you can see the stained glass, but you can't actually see into the Holy of Holies. But those are a tiny fraction of the square footage up there. Most of it is taken up with the huge assembly hall. Fully one half of the temple is a massive assembly hall on the top of the Salt Lake Temple. And what I was struck by— I mean, this was, this was right after we had visited Kirtland. And what I was struck by in the course of this— this is '94, not '93, sorry— was the fact that that assembly room is the Kirtland Temple. If the Kirtland Temple had been more ornately finished and had had more money and more resources to pour into it, it was laced with gold sort of, um, you know, trim and, and all kinds of things that I don't think the Saints could afford when the Kirtland Temple was built. But the layout is identical. You know, in the Kirtland Temple, you have these, these pulpits on either side. One side is a pulpit for the Aaronic Priesthood, and the other side is a pulpit for the Melchizedek Priesthood. And that's the pulpit where Jesus Christ ostensibly came You know, they can point you to exactly where Joseph and Oliver were standing when they had that vision. But it was remarkable to me that when Brigham Young arrived in the Salt Lake Valley and built the Salt Lake Temple, there was sort of this instinct that the Kirtland Temple was unfinished, or the Kirtland Temple was incomplete, and the Salt Lake Temple sort of completed it. And so the idea that they would transform the Kirtland Temple into an endowment house, essentially, is— I, I think would fly in the face of that kind of a legacy that the Salt Lake Temple has had to build on it. And I don't know that a lot of members, uh, have had the opportunity. I mean, you had the guy walking you up into the into these secret rooms. I mean, we got, we got to go to the room where James E. Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ and all this kind of stuff. And it was a really, really wonderful thing. But that sense of history and that, I mean, whether or not you're a believer, the history of Kirtland is just so compelling and there's so much that went on. When we took our tour, What was interesting to me was at one point the tour guide pointed to a section where he says, yeah, this was built and the construction workers— you don't think about this, but the construction workers were the high— the highest members of the church. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, all of these guys spent hours and hours pounding nails into the temple. You know, they didn't have any kind of extra construction crew. It was all of them. And he told the story, he says, sitting on this bench is where Emma Smith found Joseph Smith asleep with drool coming out the side of his mouth and saying, yep, that's what a prophet looks like. No, I thought, geez, those aren't the kinds of stories you hear from the missionaries, you know. And that's the kind of color that's— that I think is likely to be lost here. But the idea that this is, this is a precursor to the Second Coming and all of that, I just, I don't know how you get there from here. The one site that is not in the church's hands that does have the potential to be a precursor to the Second Coming is the Temple Lot site, which is in Independence, Missouri. And that's where apparently the temple is going to be built for the New Jerusalem, and that Jesus himself will come and visit it. And all of the members are waiting for the call to go back to Missouri. But that spot is not owned by the Community of Christ. At one point it was. The Community of Christ had it. Uh, they lost it in a lawsuit. Actually, they won the lawsuit, and then the lawsuit was overturned on appeal, and it is owned by a group that calls themselves Church of Christ Temple Lot. That's the name of their church. Their church has about 3,500 members worldwide, and essentially the entire church focuses on the fact that they are the caretakers of the sacred site where the temple will be built, where Jesus will come back to the New Jerusalem. And historically, they have despised the Utah-based church, and they have absolutely no interest in selling. And if they were to sell, they would essentially disband their church because the entire purpose of their church is to exist, is to be the caretaker of that site. So that site is no closer to falling into the hands of Salt Lake City. And that's the only site, I think, where I would start saying, huh, Okay, the church now has the Temple Lot, and maybe, maybe things are going to start happening here. But, you know, I, I mean, from your perspective, uh, how prevalent do you think the, the thinking about this being a Second Coming sort of thing is?

Not so much. I'm seeing it— well, I'm seeing it across my social media feed. What's interesting that the people, some of the people, some of the people posting are very established in the church, very smart people, bishops, coming from a bishop, counsel in the Stake Presidency. So there are people out there, members out there who see this as a precursor to the second coming of Christ. Seeing this as an important milestone, both in the evolution of the church and in respect to the second coming of Christ. But when we went on the, I think it was the second tour, Jim, when we went there, and that was the extended, included extended unofficial tour, that we had a conversation with the Community of Christ tour guide, and he was very patient, very generous actually with his time and allowing us to see more than probably what he was allowed to, and we asked questions about, um, the, the, the Utah, you know, the church and its relationship with the Community of Christ. I was with my brother-in-law at that time who was a historian, actually an amazing historian of the church, who knew much more about it than I did. But we're asking questions of the Community of Christ church guide and about if the church still— our church still remains interested in Kirtland Temple. And he— it was very clear that the church has been pursuing the Kirtland Temple time. There's been times where the church has tried to acquire it and was not successful. It's always been frustrated that the Kirtland Temple, which is a very significant part of the history, has always been on the outside of the church's ownership, and that the church had told the Community of Christ that eventually, hopefully, that it would come back into the fold. And the tour guide said that they will never sell, that it will always be part of the Community of Christ property. There's no plans to sell. And I've lost count how many times that I've heard that. I've got some interesting facts here, Jim, for our listeners that I think they'll find very interesting, which ties to quite a few of the points that you've made already. The announcement of the Kirtland Temple was made on the 27th of December, 1832. The year after, in June, in 1833, construction of the temple began. Almost 3 years later, in 1836, on the 27th of March, Joseph Smith personally dedicated the temple. The building is made of sandstone, stucco with plaster, about 15,000 square feet. It's on a bluff. The temple stands on a bluff in northeastern Ohio, 20, 30 miles east of Cleveland, in the Chagrin Valley. Um, its historic property has been open for free tours to members of all faiths. Uh, several sites, buildings, other sacred sites have been restored in historic Kirtland by the church, bringing to life the story and spirit of early Kirtland Saints. As you know, it's a very prolific history there, and events, tribulations, trials, persecution, and spiritual, uh, extraordinary revelations, um, angelic revelations. Temple was erect, it's the first temple erected in this dispensation. School of the Prophets for run-up to temple worship was established 3 years before the dedication of the temple. And that room is above the Kirtland Whitney Store. You and I've been there. I've actually been there. I think that's the place where the Word of Wisdom was introduced. I think that's when they were, I remember the tour there upstairs. It was a spittoon. Is that the right term?

Yep.

Is that right? And they would chew tobacco, I think. Tobacco. There you go. That's me with my North American accent there. Tobacco. Tobacco. There we go. You got the British and the North American version.

It's properly pronounced tabacky.

There we go. That's an improvement on mine.

If you're trying to be historically accurate, we'll never bite.

Tabacky. That's okay. We've got 3 different distinct versions there for our international audience. And so, uh, you know, they met in that new OK Witness Tower. Uh, early Saints, uh, refer to the temple as the Lord's House, as the, the term temple was not in general use at that time. Uh, log construction was proposed for the Kirtland Temple in early discussions in the design engineering of the project. You're right, the leaders were actually involved in the design engineering of the project, which is extraordinary. The design of the Kirtland Temple was received by revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, which is extraordinary. That's very significant in the field of engineering sciences and etc. A temple included a lower hall for worship and an upper hall for education. Both featured pulpits on either side. You mentioned that earlier with initials representing the priesthood offices. A during construction, Kirtland Temple was guarded at night. To protect the building from threatening mobs and vandals. We said earlier that it was built at a time of significant persecution by mobs, and the Saints had a very awful time. At the dedication of the temple, the Saints experienced an extraordinary— a number of extraordinary outpourings, heavenly manifestations, including visions, prophecies, gift of tongues, and the appearance of angels. About, about that day, Joseph Smith wrote Brother George Albert Smith arose and began to prophesy when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind which filled the temple, and all the congregation simultaneously rose, being moved upon by an invisible power. Many began to speak in tongues and prophesy. Others saw glorious visions, and I beheld the temple was filled with angels, which fact I declared to the congregation. End quote. The people of the neighborhood came running together, hearing an unusual sound within. And seeing a bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the temple, and were astonished at what was taking place. That's another little quote. On Easter Sunday, 1836, during the Jewish Passover, the Lord Jesus Christ himself appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple, accepting the house of the Lord. If you remember the Truman Madsen tapes talking about this, there's a Kirtland, uh, portion of the Truman Madsen tapes. And Joseph Smith was, was anxious, I think the word is, to learn if the Lord was going to accept the temple. I remember those words very clearly on the, on the Truman Madsen tapes, and the Lord did accept it. Also, priesthood keys were also restored through the three ancient prophets who personally visited the temple: Moses, who brought the keys to the gathering of Israel. Elias brought the keys for the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham, and Elijah, sealing keys, Jim Bennett. So, you know, the sealings that you and I participated in, in personally and within our family, and we've witnessed with others in the temple, they originated through revelation, through that visit from the sealing keys from Elijah Bennett. And just closing off here, the ordinances received in the Kirtland Temple were only a partial endowment. So the guy told us, because we asked him, it was designed to be a fully functioning temple. That was one of the plans. There were other plans, and it was designed to deliver a partial endowment. I'm not sure what that means. Does that mean Washington anointings? Does that mean baptisms and not the, the full endowment? But it says here the full endowment would not be received until the Saints settled in Nauvoo. And then 2 years after the dedication of the temple, the Saints had largely abandoned Kirtland. 'Cause a lot of the opposition persecution and the temple became a venue for private and public function, like a, in some ways a community building. Temple was later leased for many years as a public school. I've got a memory, Jim, where the temple was sold for a dollar. The church was in severe financial difficulty and to get out of the difficulty at the time, I think it was the Kirtland Bank, the temple was an asset, and I think the temple was sold to settle some debt for a very minuscule amount, if I'm not mistaken, in terms of my, you know, in regards to my memory. And then in 1880, the Community of Christ reestablished ownership of the Clinton Temple. The building was restored as closely as possible to its original condition, and the Community of Christ continued its ownership of the building until of course, uh, this week when ownership was transferred to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for agreed on amount, which you've referenced. So there's a few interesting, um, facts about the church. I think it's extremely significant, very special time and moment for members of the church, uh, but to your point, perhaps mixed for the Community of, uh, of Christ members who probably see it in a different light.

Well, you know, so those are all facts that I think, at least many of them, faithful members of the church would be familiar with. You know, we— I mean, the Kirtland Temple certainly captured my imagination, particularly from those Truman Madsen tapes. Incidentally, Truman Madsen is also a descendant of Heber J. Grant, spoke at that meeting when I saw the sort of Kirtland Temple replica on the top of the Salt Lake Temple. But there are Kirtland— the history of Kirtland is a lot more fraught and a lot more troubled than that. You know, the Kirtland period almost saw the total collapse of the church. Because Kirtland is where Joseph Smith set up the Kirtland Safety Society, which was a, which was a bank that failed and collapsed and, and shook everybody's faith because they thought, wait a minute, the prophet was telling us to invest in this, the prophet was telling us our money would be safe and that we would make money off of this, and we've lost everything. And You know, even now, you know, we talked to Hans Mattson. He— it was when Marlon Jensen went over to Hans Mattson for the Swedish rescue. He said, not since Kirtland have we seen the kind of apostasy that we're seeing today. I mean, Kirtland was a moment when the church almost crumbled. It's also interesting to me, one of the things as I've gotten deeper into church history, is that so the Kirtland Temple is dedicated in 1836, right before or right shortly after that, I guess it is, because it's Kirtland Temple dedication. The date— you have the date sitting there in front of you?

I do.

What was— what's the date that Kirtland Temple dedication was dedicated? Kirtland Temple?

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, we go with this, the dedication, 27th of March, 1836, by Joseph Okay, it's dedicated in March.

So in September of 1836, um, there's a family that leaves Kirtland, a family by the name of the Alger's, with a daughter by the name of Fanny Alger. And sometime prior to this, and, and likely prior to the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, Joseph Smith entered into a sexual relationship with Fanny Alger. Historians differ as to whether or not this was a plural marriage or whether or not this was an affair. And certainly Oliver Cowdery believed it was an affair, believed it was a dirty, nasty, ugly scrape is how he described it. And it was the catalyst for Oliver Cowdery leaving the church. So I'm looking at this and going, okay, So Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith in March of 1836 are having this glorious vision of Jesus and of all of these prophets. And Joseph, prior to this, has been having whatever kind of relationship with Fanny Alger and hasn't told Oliver about it. Oliver doesn't find out about it and doesn't leave the church until 1838. And I'm just thinking there are so many tensions that are bubbling up under the surface. And when we look back, we look back in history, the Kirtland Temple seems like this sort of foregone conclusion that the glory of the Restoration was just marching onward without a hitch. And this was an extraordinarily turbulent time. And the restoration was on a knife's edge. And, you know, for Joseph to be engaged in this relationship, even if it is a plural marriage and is sanctioned by God, it's certainly something that threatens to destroy his marriage to Emma. It threatens to destroy the confidence that Oliver has in him. And if the entire church were to know about it, I mean, Joseph didn't tell The— during his lifetime, he didn't tell the general body of the church that he was a polygamist. And had he done so, I don't think the church would have survived. So it's, it's really, you know, looking at this and looking at the history, I just think we, we would be so much stronger as a people if we were to do what I think the Community of Christ has did when they were talking about the temple, about the Kirtland Temple, when they're bringing it— they— the one thing that I was very impressed with, with the guy who led me on my tour, was that there was no attempt to hide anything. There was no attempt to sugarcoat anything. There was no attempt to frame anything in a way that would only be faith-building. You know, that's— and, and that's the approach that the church takes with all these other historical sites. And I really sort of lament the fact that that's going to be lost, that we're not going to have that kind of an approach to it. The other issue that I kind of want to raise here, and maybe this, this, this is a rabbit hole we could dive down that could get us into trouble, but you listed the prophets that appeared to Joseph Smith and the three that are listed are Moses, Elias, and Elijah. Now, historians now look at the original list of that and believe that to some degree that's a typo because Elias is the Greek form of the name Elijah. And so Joseph Smith wrote Elias and then wrote Elijah sort of under it. And we've had centuries now of scholars sort of trying to find this elusive third prophet that isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible and is very likely a duplicate name, that Elias and Elijah are the same guy, which calls into question the veracity of what was happening here. And I mean, we can dive down that rabbit hole. I, you know, I remember when I went to Kirtland, the one thing that the tour guide wasn't willing to do was sort of embrace all of those spiritual things. And somebody in our tour, I mean, the entire tour were Latter-day Saints. They weren't Community of Christ members. They weren't people off the street. I think the vast majority of people who went through the Kirtland Temple when the Community of Christ was managing it were, were people from the Salt Lake-based church. But somebody asked, well, where was it that Joseph Smith and Oliver saw Jesus? Tour guide's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I should show you that. And so he walked over, and there's still a curtain there. When you read the description of the experience, Joseph and Oliver drew a curtain and stood behind the curtain. And, and saw Jesus appear. Well, I sat there looking at it, and the curtain— that at least the curtain that was there was somewhat translucent. You know, you could see through it. You could see the shadow of the guy on the other side of it. And I thought, okay, if Jesus is physically appearing at this pulpit, a curtain like that isn't going to shield anything, you know, in the description in the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, his eyes were like a flame of fire, he was standing on a breastplate of gold, and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, okay, how is it that everybody in the room didn't see that? And my personal answer to that is that this was a vision, this wasn't a visitation. That Joseph and Oliver, I believe, had a spiritual experience and saw the Savior in vision. But the idea that the Savior physically showed up to Kirtland, I just think there are a lot of logistical problems for that to be the case. The other thing that, that I think is problematic in this is one of the things that I'm seeing not in my Facebook feed, but seeing on in my Twitter feed. Among more fundamentalist members of the church is a lot of dunking on the Community of Christ, a lot of, "Ahahaha, you finally had to sell this thing because your church is such a mess and you're just failing and you're just— you guys suck." And they're saying explicitly that the fact that our church has so much money is a testimony of the fact that it must be the true church. That this whole idea of the prosperity gospel, that the wealth of the church is a sign of the veracity of the church or the legitimacy of the church, and the unkindness, uh, does not speak well for us. I don't, I don't see any benefit to kicking the Community of Christ when they are clearly down. I mean, this is not something they ever wanted to do. This is not something they ever expected to do and now feel necessary to do it. And to see the lack of grace in some of these members, it just kind of breaks my heart. I remember years ago going to a— there's a group in Salt Lake City called the Cannon Hinckley Group. It's sort of a study group for old people. At least that's how I always saw it because my parents were members and everybody, they were kind of the young ones, you know, but they would get scholars to come. And I don't remember the name of the scholar or what his title was, but he came and spoke about his relationship with the Community of Christ. And this is about the time that the Community of Christ had just completed their temple. At the time, they were still the Reorganized Church. And, you know, they built this big temple right across from the Temple Lot, from the Church of Christ Temple Lot. The Community of Christ has this big sort of spacey-looking temple with this sort of jagged, crooked spire that, that's kind of a corkscrew pointing to the sky. A lot of people think it's ugly. I think it's actually kind of lovely and it's a really unique sort of construction. And this guy talked about that his role was kind of to be the liaison between the church and between the reorganized church. And he says— and he pointed out back then, he says, I was always struck by how casually rude some members would be. They told the experience of bringing a member of the Community of Christ to a temple in Utah. I think it was the Jordan River Temple. And he brought him and he said, we can go into the temple lobby. You can't go into the endowment rooms into most of the temple, but anybody can go into the temple lobby. So I would love to take you into the temple lobby and just show you that temple. And, and, and he brings him in and whoever's behind the desks comes to greet them. Hello and welcome to the temple. And, and do you want to come back? No, no, no. I'm here with this member of the Reorganized Church and I'm just showing him the temple lobby and the And the guy behind the desk says, "Oh, the Reorganized Church. You're the ones who have built that new temple and you don't have any idea what to do with it." And the scholar was like, "Why do we do that? What good does that do? How is that helpful?" And I just think, you know, I, I, I, I, I like to think that that's a minority, and I, and I, and I firmly believe it is. I don't believe most members of the church behave that way, and I'm not seeing a lot of that. And certainly from my personal acquaintances, I'm not seeing any of that. Most people are looking at this and they're being very gracious, and I'm seeing the Community of Christ being very gracious in return. And the church has arranged a contract with the Community of Christ that will allow them to continue to hold meetings in the Kirtland Temple. You know, the Community of Christ in many ways opened the temple to our church on many occasions at no cost. You know, I mean, they've been very gracious. They've been really, really responsible and gracious stewards of these properties. You know, the Tabernacle Choir has sung in the Kirtland Temple. A number of different things have happened there that the Church has done. And the Church is now saying, okay, we're going to extend that same grace to you guys. We want to share this with you. We will maintain it, but we are not, you know, kicking you out. You guys can still claim this as part of your heritage as well. But I just think this is an opportunity for us to show grace and to show kindness. And it really kind of frustrates me when we don't do that. Are you seeing any of that, or is that just something that I'm making up?

No, no. Well, I'm not seeing any of that.

I—

it's unfortunate that there's an element of the church that feel the need to disparage in some way, you know, the Community of Christ or ridicule or be disrespectful in that way. And I know that happens. It's usually with a small number in the church. The comments I'm seeing are excitement. This is significant. And again, in the evolution of the church and the history of the church and also precursor to the second coming of Christ, that it's an important milestone and excitement, etc. So I'm seeing positive comments, albeit perhaps a little bit, in my perspective, a little bit misguided. And not that our listeners need— most of our listeners who know us now will know that I'm on the— you're on the inside and I'm on the outside.

Yeah, but I'm the one that's saying, you know, Elias is made up.

Well, I want to respond to that. That's— I want to respond specifically to that. And, and, and I again remind listeners, I'm on the outside, right? So this is going to be— this is your response. Just want to— before I get into that response to Elias, um, being on the outside here, um, uh, I, I accept that the, the, the, the so-called facts that I shared earlier were facts through the prism of the narrative of the church. You're absolutely right. There's an extremely colorful, violent actually, and extraordinary period of time with all, with polygamy and extraordinary accusations and huge period of apostasy of members who were devout members for all the reasons and more that we've not even got into. We don't have time to get into right now. So I just want to— I would assist in that. I'm aware that what I read earlier is the facts according to the church. To your point about Elias, and this is reliable because this is what I taught and I've heard this from very reliable people. Elias is also— and correct me if I'm wrong here— is also means messenger. Messenger.

I don't know that.

I mean, okay, if any of our listeners— okay, well, if any of our listeners want to check me on this, that's fine. But I've been taught and read, or it's been shared with me, that Elias— and this was in seminary and going back over the years— wasn't Elijah. Who's actually Michael. Michael the Archangel is the Elias, which is an another word. And I might be completely wrong here, completely out to lunch, and I'm sure there's people, folks out there that will correct me, and that's fine. But Elias, I understand, means messenger. And that person was Michael, who is Adam, who appeared at that time. So I've understood from perhaps unreliable sources and maybe unreliable teaching that we had Moses, Elias, which means messenger, who is Michael the Archangel or Adam, and Elijah, who was the, the, the, who brought the keys of the power of sealing, which seals families, uh, over the generations. So there's me giving a faithful response to, uh, the outside, to you, Jim, who's on the inside, uh, giving what I think is, uh, 80%, uh, 70% trust and confidence from my perspective that Elias does, I think, mean messenger, but I'm sure our listeners will correct me. So yeah, that's what I always—

I was taught.

That's what I always believe.

This is the first I have heard the idea that an Elias is a messenger and that, like, for instance, John the Baptist.

Elias.

Yes. That. But as I do my research, which consists of me Googling furiously while you're talking, I can't find anything that supports that other than the only place, you know, I Google Elias messenger and I came up with a bunch of purses. You know, there's apparently there's an Elias messenger bag that comes up. But, but in terms of defining it, the, the things I'm seeing are Is Elias and Elijah the same person in the Bible?

Right.

And that's from the Encyclopedia Britannica, and they insist yes, it is. Elijah's name means Yahweh is my God and is spelled Elias in some versions of the Bible. The only thing I can see that talks about them as separate people is a link to the church's website and a link to fairlatterdaysaints.org and all these sorts of things.

I'm sure— go ahead. You can continue.

Well, I mean, I haven't done any research on this, right? This— this sounds like there has been centuries of apologetics around this when I'm wondering if it's possible that we just have misread a piece of paper and have created this whole mythology around it. Because I don't think, I don't even think that that negates the validity of Joseph's vision. If he's talking about Elijah, Elias, and Elijah giving these keys, that could all be one guy that gave not just the keys of the gathering of Israel, but also the keys of whatever else it was, you know, the seating power and everything else. I mean, I don't know.

I, yeah, I, I, I, again, I'm going on my vague memory here. Now listeners will, will help us in this, I'm sure. But my, I've always believed that, uh, Moses is individual, Elijah's an individual. The Lord wouldn't get too confused. Elias means messenger, and I, that was someone else, or, uh, Michael. Okay. The Michael might be a little bit the crazy bit. We'll see what our listeners say and see what research that we get. I'll be fascinated. But the, if you remember the Truman Manson tapes, the Kirtland, Truman Manson tapes, remember that tape? We used to listen to that. The stories around the Kirtland Temple about Satan showing up on the horses and that Satan's angels would show up and, and the, the, just before the temple was gonna be dedicated, that, that all this persecution, by the way, you remember the tapes, the mob, the persecution, the trials, the tribulation. Were all a testament of the divinity of the temple. That was a major milestone that Satan didn't want this to happen. And all hell was unleashed. Remember those tapes?

Yeah. Yes.

The horses showed up. This— I got this chill down my spine. It was like— it was like— like Lord of the Rings again. And it was— it was ghosts appeared and— and they're all there trying to destroy the temple. And through the power of the priesthood, they were all dispelled and vanquished by the power. And the temple, and they didn't stop the dedication of the temple because of the power of the priesthood. I listened to the tapes, Truman's amazing command of the language there, his oratory was extraordinary. I used to get chills. Wow. I used to think the Kirtland Temple, all that opposition, yet it was built and Amazing experience, again, through the lens of the church narrative. And of course, is that other side. And I think what happens, Jim, and we've heard this on our mission a lot, how many times did we hear a story on our missions that was extraordinary and gave us the chills and like, wow. And then at least half the time it was either made up or it was embellished or it was developed, or it wasn't founded on fact, but the stories were kind of ran through the mission and would share them and would perpetuate them. And we're like, wow, that's just amazing. The church is so true. And I remember listening to those stories. I remember sharing those stories. I'm sure some will come to mind in the future, but you know what I'm talking about, those extraordinary stories, modern day, certainly during the Restoration, And it gets filtered through across the membership. And, and those stories, you know, come into our discussions, come into our lessons. It might be false, they might be true, but it's part of the, you know, the extraordinary rich history of the church, which, you know, it is probably a lot of it's not based on facts and reality. And I accept that. It'll be interesting to see what response we get from this, uh, podcast.

It will be interesting. I mean, you, you referenced the tarring and the feathering.

Uh, I didn't, but you did. I didn't, but, uh, nope.

Oh, you're talking about the big opposition. I mean, in 1832, Joseph was, was, was tarred and feathered, and, uh, I was always taught that's because the vicious mobs hated him. Uh, but I've since found out that Fawn Brodie who was Joseph Smith's primary biographer before Richard Bushman finally wrote Rough Stone Rolling, which I think has become the more definitive biography. But Fawn Brodie referenced the tarring and feathering was an attempt to castrate Joseph Smith, because Eli Johnson believed that Joseph Smith had made advances on his teenage sister, Nancy Marinda Johnson. So, I mean, this is an early sort of response to Joseph Smith's sexual adventurism. You know, I mean, that's not something that has ever been taught in Sunday school. Although Richard Bushman insists that that's not the case. There are other accounts that say that Joseph Smith was trying to take away property for members of the community and sort of bring it into the church's property. And so this was a response to that. But I'd always thought that the tarring and feathering and the mobs and all these things, they were this sort of grotesque, violent force lurking outside the borders of Kirtland like monsters, uh, whereas the tarring and feathering was an inside job. These were Latter-day Saints who were mad at the Prophet Joseph Smith, either for making advances on a teenage girl or trying to take away their property or something else. But the unrest, the difficulty in Kirtland, by the time you get to Missouri, uh, it's very much an external force, uh, that is, I think, motivated by polygamy to some degree, but also motivated by the fact that Nauvoo is the second largest city in Illinois at the time. And Joseph Smith is, you know, essentially a dictator, a benevolent dictator of a large group of people that have a huge voting bloc. And I think that, that, that, you know, I think that accounts for a lot of that. But in Kirtland, you weren't seeing that. You weren't seeing the kind of external opposition. You were seeing internal turmoil. You were seeing a church that was trying desperately to find its footing. And I think the Kirtland Temple is what saved the church in that time, because the Kirtland Temple was the unifying effort. No matter where you were, with regard to Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger, or where you are with regard to the Kirtland Safety Society, or all these other controversies. These people were so united in building this temple in abject poverty. I mean, they did not have the money or the resources to do this, and they did it any way. That was almost miraculous in its own right, the fact that that temple was built. By impoverished people who had been, you know, just— they were dedicating, they were tithing their time. You know, people would— I think it was like one day a week was dedicated to going and working and building the temple. You know, right now we're all— we're asked to do is clean the toilets in the church every, every Saturday. And this was significantly more than that. But the temple was such a unifying effort. And the dedication of the temple, by all accounts, was an extraordinary spiritual experience. I mean, and again, to be cynical, there are some who say this must have been the result of Joseph Smith spiking the water with psychedelic mushrooms. I don't put a lot of stock in that. I just, I, I, Clearly, uh, whatever happened there was enough of a powerful manifestation that, that it sustained the faith of the core of the church leadership in a way that they were able to survive the later collapse that came after the Kirtland Safety Society. And the church is— I mean In terms of percentage, the church lost its greatest percentage of members in Kirtland beyond any other time. The one last thing I want to bring up, I saw one thing that really made me laugh and maybe shouldn't have because maybe it's unkind, but I saw a GIF on Twitter of Louise from Bob's Burgers. Do you ever watch Bob's Burgers? Oh, she's a young child. Anyway, it's a gift of her standing in front of flames and just cackling. Ah, and the caption was, Brigham Young in hell laughing about finally buying Emma Smith's temple. And I thought, you know, Emma and Brigham hated each other. They absolutely hated each other. And the Kirtland Temple stayed in Emma's hands, essentially. Emma didn't go west with the Saints. And it was Emma's son, Joseph Smith III, who became the first president of the Reorganized Church. And the Kirtland Temple was their centerpiece. So in many ways, the history of the Community of Christ with the Kirtland Temple is longer and richer because we share the common history of its dedication and all of that. But after the Saints go west, it's, it's Emma Smith who, who essentially reclaims the Kirtland Temple and her, and her posterity reclaims the Kirtland Temple. And it's Joseph Smith's posterity that embraces this. And, you know, so it's— there, there's some real sensitivity there. And, and we try to claim Emma Smith in our camp. And again, we have a common history with Emma Smith. But, uh, you know, to the Community of Christ, Emma is every bit as significant as Joseph. If not more so. And so I really hope that we can be sensitive to that, because for Brigham to be able to finally take over Emma's temple has got to be a tremendous blow in a way that I think we need to be sensitive to. So that's my my summation of the event. I mean, from my perspective, I think it's actually— ultimately, this is a very good thing for everybody and for the Community of Christ. I mean, I know they didn't want to do this, but I think it puts them on sound financial footing. And I think, you know, there are reports that these are buildings in need of repair, in need of restoration. One account said that only 35 people at a time can be on the second floor of the Kirtland Temple because it's so unsteady up there or whatever it is. And the church, the church, I absolutely believe is going to be a wise steward of these properties. I would hope that they would lay off the missionary pitch, but I don't think that will happen. I think that we're going to get some of that. And I think that may be the price to pay for it. But hopefully the the relationship with the Community of Christ will continue, and the kind of respect and the kind of dignity that the Community of Christ has brought to the caretaking of these properties will not have been in vain. And hopefully that spirit will continue in all of this, and I think there, there's every indication that that's what will happen. And so, yeah, I think this is This is— this is exciting. I was very excited to hear the news. I don't think it means Jesus is right around the corner, but I do think it's an exciting way for us to be able to build bridges and to embrace our common history. And that history, no matter where you stand and no matter where you situate, is fascinating and compelling and remarkable.

Really grateful for those very respectful comments. They're very balanced and very appropriate. In our experience, Jim, visiting the Kilton Temple, we found the behavior and the attitudes of the Community of Christ members there incredibly kind, very loving, very generous. Very gracious, very appropriate, very balanced, and just reliable in terms of history. And they've, they've done an extraordinary job of looking after the temple and being stewards of the temple. The second thing, the next thing I would say rather, would be the Kirtland Temple represents an extraordinary moment in the restoration of the church for all the reasons we've talked about, and far, far more than than what we've discussed today. A very layered and rich, complex, challenging, but very significant in terms of revelation historical point in time for the church. And the other thing, the final comment I would say is that, and I've seen this in my feed, that this is a, you know, the opposition that was present at the time which T.L. Point became more significant and more external as they moved further west to Missouri. Look at my geography, right? Represents the opposition from the adversary to build and dedicate the temple, therefore proving that the church is the only true church upon the face of the earth. And the other side to that, which I'm seeing right now, 2 or 3 comments that the acquisition of the Kirtland Temple is yet another, um, witness, another test, another piece of evidence if you need any to, to, uh, further confirm yet again that this is the only true living church upon the earth. So the church, uh, wins, uh, in, in every aspect, and I think it will use it.

I win, tails you lose.

Yeah, you cannot— the church cannot lose. It cannot lose. Uh, but I think overall, uh, and I'll close off here, but I think, I think, uh, for many perhaps everyone, this is a positive experience. And, but I just want to say what a profound spiritual experience that we had at the Kirtland Temple. And those moments in the grounds, late spring, the fireflies were— it was dusk, the night, the day was fading, the night was drawing in, the fireflies were around, it was just us as a family. We, we had some materials that we're reading, we had a prayer, we gathered and we We said a prayer as a family, and it was just as at that time. And no matter what, you know, they say about the Kirtland Temple, it's that there's a very peaceful and very spiritual side to that. And I think it's the— this is the thing I want to finish on— the people that built that temple, Jim Bennett, served in that temple and performed or witnessed that there was revelations. I believe many of them sincerely believed in what they were being taught, uh, that whether they're right or wrong doesn't matter. They believed those events took place. Christ appeared. Joseph Smith was the prophet. He was their prophet, their beloved prophet. And they, uh, they hung on to that with hope, and he blessed their lives. And we felt that, we felt that sacrifice somewhat, um, in the grounds of the Kirtland Temple that one evening. And, um, perhaps just a tiny glimpse into some of the spiritual events that were happening that we felt that, that we were experiencing at that time. So I've really enjoyed— I'm glad we've done this. I'm so glad we've had this conversation. Hope people find it very positive and uplifting and balanced and constructive. Thank you.

Let's let that be the last word. So with that, We will leave you all again, and we look forward to seeing you next time in our next episode of Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you, Jim.