The Missionary Program

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. I'm Jim Bennett, and I'm here as always with Ian Wilkes. How are you, Ian?

I'm very good, Jim. How are you?

I'm doing just fine, and I'm really excited about our topic today because it's something that's near and dear to both of our hearts. We met when we were missionaries long, long ago, far, far away. And want to talk about the missionary program in 2023. We both have personal experience here that I think is going to inform this discussion. I'm curious, when you talk about the missionary program now, what's your initial reaction to that?

It's changed almost beyond recognition compared to when you and I were serving, you know, more old-fashioned, if you like, experience of mission work, you know, going back 30 years or so. Now it seems to be— well, it is, it's very much online, it's social media. I'm seeing frequent posts by local missionaries who post, you know, their Books of Mormon on Facebook Marketplace, or a free Book of Mormon, free service, you know, we offering to come out and trim your bush, and the Bible, you know, free Bibles, etc., etc. So it's very different. I think the, you know, tract knocking on doors in Scotland or most parts of the world are difficult even at the best of times. We lost count how many times President Banks and some general authorities said that we only get 5%, 6% success rate with knocking on doors compared to—

5%, that's huge.

It is, it is huge.

We got less than 1%. Fuck you. We did.

We did, but I think looking at my notes, uh, there were the percentages. I think if there's always a danger if they tell the real percentage, yeah, it, it, it looks like you're completely wasting your time because we spent 10 hours a day, right? We were up at 6, you know, we were out of the flat at 9:30 on the dot. You're on your knees at 9:25, right? And, uh, you were out by 9:30, physically out the flat, etc., and you were out there doing what? You were knocking on doors in the rain and you tracked it right through to 12. You had half an hour, uh, if you were lucky. Um, I had a companion that wanted to work through all lunches, dinner, and P-days. That's another conversation. Um, it was my trainer. Anyway, we, we tracked it, uh, till 12, had half an hour, and then we're back pounding the streets. And it didn't really get us very far. So as a percentage of time, you know, you're looking at 90 5% of your time, you know, 93% of your time knocking on doors. And if you assign a, a, a minute percentage to that, it looks like it's completely futile. Why on earth are you, uh, out there? And then we'd get reminded often that we're out there for us, which is— I get that, you know, we're out there to build our own testimony and, and strengthen ourselves. And that, that certainly does that. That's a big, uh, a big element of this. But the church, uh, a primary objective is convert baptisms, right? And those methods were not, uh, were not successful really. I think that when I got there, February '87, I think that the whole mission of 152 missionaries had baptized 9 people, uh, and most of those, uh, I think 6 or 7 of those left within the first few months.

Yep. Well, I remember there was a big push one I mean, we were fasting, and the push was for SEM 40, SEM standing for Scotland Edinburgh Mission, and the Scotland Edinburgh Mission was going to have 40 baptisms in one month, and we fasted for that, and we prayed for that in zone conference, and I don't think we even got close. We may have hit 30. I don't think we did, and I remember, I remember several zone conferences where Essentially, the mission president would come and tell you what a terrible person you were. I mean, President Banks would say, you guys are just— you're not doing something right. I mean, we only had 8 baptisms last month, and come on, guys. I mean, the guilt trip. Missions— I, I told my kids, missions largely run on guilt. I mean, you, you feel guilty. I was the kind of missionary— I remember once when you were my zone leader You came up to Thurso, Scotland, which was probably my favorite area, way up there at the top of the British mainland. And you said— you paid me one of the greatest compliments any other missionary has paid me. And you said, you cannot waste, you know, you guys cannot waste. I mean, you're— because you have so many neuroses and so much guilt that if you were to just sit around and waste— and that's a verb that I guess people outside of the mission might not realize— the wasters, you know, were the missionaries that didn't do anything or that were lousy missionaries. But my, you know, I, I was such a neurotic. I was the kind of missionary that if I woke up at 6:35, even through no fault of my own, I had obviously done something wrong by not being righteous enough to have set my alarm properly. Or to whatever else it was. And I would spend most of my days carrying around this huge lump of guilt for everything I wasn't doing or wasn't doing enough of. And I look back on it now and it just seems ridiculous because I was pounding my head against the wall as much as I possibly could. And still, you know, the success rate was far less than 5%, and it was— we wasted— talk about waste. The idea of knocking on doors, even, even 35 years ago, it was just a ridiculous, ridiculous thing to do. And so, fade out, fade in. I have twin boys who served missions. They were both called to different missions in Argentina. One was called Buenos Aires and one was called to Neuquén, which is down at the bottom of the country. And they served for about 6 months before the COVID lockdowns. And the COVID lockdowns, they were assigned to go sit in their missionary flats and do nothing. But that was the assignment. They didn't have Wi-Fi. They didn't have cell phones. Uh, they didn't have smartphones, didn't have anything. You know, they've changed the mission rules so that they can call home, uh, once a week, which was a blessing and to some degree a bit of a curse. Because when you have two missionaries serving and they're not doing anything at all, and so they call you and they've got nothing else going on and they want to talk all day. I mean, I— there were several P-days where we spent literally 8 hours talking to both of our sons, and they didn't call at the same time, so we would spend 4 hours with one, we'd spend 4 hours with another. So we would spend 8 hours, literally 8 hours, talking to our missionaries who were bored out of their minds, and Finally, they, um, you know, they'd have to go to the church to use the Wi-Fi at the church. Early on, they had to go to, uh, kind of an internet cafe, and it was very hard to hear, and the Wi-Fi connection wasn't very good. These just were very difficult sorts of conversations. But the thing that just leapt out at me throughout that whole experience was these vibrant, brilliant, passionate, dedicated young men are wasting a great deal of time, and the church is deliberately wasting their time. And I, I remember they came home right before the April 2020 General Conference, and I was kind of excited because I thought, okay, President Nelson has said that this General Conference is going to be completely memorable, and he is a prophet, and so he clearly got kind of an advance warning that this was going to happen. And this conference is going to, you know, address COVID. It's going to address how the Church should deal with COVID and all of that. My sons came home kind of in the dead of night And the conference came, and the whole conference was a birthday party for the First Vision. It was the 200th anniversary of the First Vision, and President Nelson had recorded himself walking through the Sacred Grove reading a proclamation that we adopted as a church in a solemn assembly with the Hosanna shout. And I guarantee you that there isn't even an active member of the church that could tell you anything that's in that proclamation. It's been completely forgotten. You know, the Family Proclamation still looms over the church as uncanonized scripture that people put on their walls, but this Restoration Proclamation that was the center of this entire conference— and the other thing that was unveiled, and it was even unveiled as we received this revelation I'm like, okay, what's this revelation? The revelation is this logo. And it was the new church logo that uses the sculpture of Christ. Uh, and I just thought, really? That's— so this is the unforgettable conference in the middle of a worldwide pandemic. My sons are coming home from their missions completely adrift, feeling disconnected from the universe. And the church offers us an empty proclamation and a logo. Uh, that was a really difficult, difficult moment for me. But the point is that the missionary program— I, I think it's impossible to look at the missionary program objectively and not conclude that it is fundamentally broken. There are half as many active members of the church in Scotland as there were when we were there. Which means whatever it was we were doing not only didn't work, but it, it did damage. You know, the numbers continue to slide. And that's the case in most of the world. The church can still claim that it's growing because in developing parts of the world and in African nations, the church is growing. But in the developed world, in the United States, it's barely treading water. South America, it's eking out maybe a less than 1% growth rate. Uh, but in Europe, in, in Asia, Japan, uh, in Australia, uh, anywhere, anywhere else, the church's missionary program is not working and the church's numbers are imploding. I feel very strongly about this because we went through this. My sons came back You know, they came home, they were sent back out to— one was sent to Cincinnati, Ohio, one was sent to Tampa Bay, Florida. And then the one in Tampa Bay got to go back to Argentina while the other one finished his mission in Cincinnati. But there were also— there were some really terrible experiences, particularly with one of my sons. That I, I'm not necessarily comfortable giving the details of publicly because I don't think that's fair to him. But, uh, it, it demonstrated that leader roulette, leadership roulette, is very much a thing in mission. That your mission can be made or broken— and you experience this— but it could be made or broken by your mission president. And if you've got a mission president that, uh, If you've got a bad mission president, uh, your mission experience is going to be hell. And for one of my kids, it really was. And so I now look at this and I say, okay, what do we do? How do we fix it? How do we change it? And I've got all kinds of ideas on that that I could ramble on about for hours on end, but I want to get your perspective on on today's missionary program? I mean, do you agree that the mission program is broken?

I do. I do. And the reason why I think I agree with that, rather, is the reason why I agree with that, and I'm coming in from a different angle. The most important commodity, the most valuable, most precious commodity is time. We're on this planet for a relatively short period of time. When we're young, you know, time, um, it seems to go slow. When you get older, it goes faster. But, you know, what those time that you spend when you're young in college, you know, career, work, missions, you know, that's an important stage of, of life. And, and if, if the church isn't— and it certainly isn't— isn't respecting what is the most valuable, precious commodity, which is time. Think about all the time we put into the callings there, um, and the effort that a young missionary, a commitment young missionary has to give and sacrifice. And it is a sacrifice, which is quite, quite extraordinary. It really is. And so, you know, on our missions, we were— listen to you— we were reminded, uh, of a few important, um, uh, points. And that was, uh, we are, um, knocking on doors, proselyting is not as effective as getting referrals. The referral program in Scotland back then was terrible. It was, it was like pulling teeth. Trying to get referrals from members was excruciatingly painful. And there was reasons why the members couldn't or didn't want to provide names of their friends or their family for different reasons. They were comfortable, they were probably embarrassed, they weren't ready. Their friends didn't, in some cases, didn't even know other members of the church. In other cases, they, they were afraid of losing a friendship and, and, uh, taking advantage of, um, leveraging that friendship, uh, to, uh, encourage them or invite them to investigate the church. We're also reminded by mission presidents, two mission presidents, general authorities, and a couple of apostles that, okay, you might not be successful in Scotland right now. You might have only had one or two baptisms in the entire mission. But remember, elders, uh, you're laying the seeds for the future generations, that these conversations that you're happening right now, these lessons, albeit they many are not joining the church, you're laying the foundation for greater success in 30 years from now, 25, 30 years from now. The church in Scotland will prosper. We will have a temple. The church membership will double, triple. You elders are laying the foundation. They might not join on, on, on in your time. Remember that your time is not the Lord's time, but you're laying those foundation for the future, and the church will prosper in the generations to come. The reality is that that is completely opposite. The church has failed and continues to fail on a pretty big scale in Scotland. I'm convinced now that the church in Scotland is— it's a bit harsh— maybe from a missionary perspective is a lost cause, and the church is now reorganizing, realigning, and re-coordinating its resources elsewhere away from Scotland that is not having success in other parts of the world and putting those resources into other countries, you know, where they can get, you know, quicker, faster gains in order to maintain that progress. So I think the church has not given up entirely in countries like Scotland. By the way, there's been a couple of buildings I think that have been sold. I think the Governing Chapel I think it's Gover in Glasgow, was sold. Unfortunately, I think it was turned into a working men's club or a pub. Um, that's what I'm hearing, and I, I don't think that's—

Glasgow Chapel is a pub.

Glasgow, I think it's one of the buildings there, one of the chapels. I think you can Google this.

It's, it's— I know that the Drum Chapel, Drum Chapel building was sold. That's it, actually, 30 years ago. It was sold in the early '90s.

I'm thinking of— I'm thinking there's another one that I'm thinking of, the more recent, in the last 2 or 3 years. Uh, I, I, the memory doesn't serve me here, but, um, where a building was sold and it's been used for something else. So the church has been in heavy decline in Scotland. It's in decline in, uh, in England, but not, not at the same rate. And, uh, I think the church has, has, uh, moved many of its resources away from, you know, these, these countries. They've also, um, joined the Irish Mission and the Scotland Mission. So the Scotland Irish Mission And I think that's down to all these factors in terms of the lack of success. And we also have a problem where you just haven't got the, um, certain country, you haven't got the leadership and you haven't got the, the time or the resources to commit to the, the missionary resources where you've got 150 missionaries with all that time and what do they do with the time. And then go to your question, contrast those traditional conventional missionary efforts that you and I are familiar with with what we're seeing today. We're seeing, um, um, a, a, a barrier to reaching people, uh, because people are not comfortable someone knocking on their door late at night, 6, 7 o'clock in the dark, a complete stranger. So we have security-related issues. There's also countries which have laws that prohibit soliciting and, and, um, you know, people, uh, coming onto your property without invitation. So there's those concerns as well, issues. And, um, and you've got limited referrals. And so right now with social media and all the, uh, the different tools that are available online, you've got young men like your, your boys, um, wonderful people going out and, um, uh, having conversations online. It's very different to, you know, notwithstanding the lack of success that you and I, um, experienced in Scotland, we would get into homes at times we would meet extraordinary people. You know, most of the time, or a lot of the time when I knock on a door, the response would be, um, you know, when we introduced ourselves and who we were and, and it was clear that we were gonna talk about religion and we go on topics like, you know, life and death and why we're here and where we're going and et cetera.

We'd often hear, um, you know, when you did, you did, uh, with your deeds, your deeds.

That's it. You do it better.

That's right.

Yeah. We'd hear that a lot. And so it was very difficult to make progress in Scotland. Notwithstanding, we did talk to people. We met some colorful characters, sometimes got— if we were lucky, got into the homes and talked. And we had some profound experiences and met friends. I'm still in touch with a couple of people that I've connected with who never joined the church, who I tried to— through other part-member families, who I've become close friends with over the years. Uh, so our experience, albeit we were not successful in terms of numbers of people being baptized, was a very, in many ways, very rich, uh, some rewarding, certainly challenging, and a very, um, you know, human experience when we were meeting people physically, face to face. Uh, that's a very different experience than having a conversation with someone online who you can't see. You don't know who they are. You don't know who this person is on the other side of the, um, of the internet. And I can't imagine how difficult that is for these young people to have an online conversation with someone they can't see, they don't know, and certainly how do they attempt to answer some of the questions. One other point I want to throw in here as well, it is a point in respect to the angle that I'm coming in to this. You know, we've called the podcast Inside Out. You've got an internal experience with your boys, I have an internal/external experience. So in 2013, when I was on the stake presidency there, I was going through wrestling with a whole series of doubts, questions, concerns, very legitimate concerns. And my boys were being encouraged within our home and certainly at church to prepare for their missions. This was 10 years ago. And, and what do they do to prepare for the missions? I think it was totally 2015, actually. This is 2015, and I was right in the middle of my, um, 2015, 2016, right in the middle of my faith or truth crisis. And I, I felt prompted or felt inclined to reach out to, uh, a wonderful man called Hans Matzing. And Hans, if you're hearing this, this is, you might recall this conversation we had. Um, an interesting conversation. I was in my office in Calgary, and I, uh, had messaged Hans, who was a former general authority of the church, who left the church. You probably have heard Hans' podcast. He's an extraordinary individual, a wonderful, kind, thoughtful, um, individual. But I felt, um, the need to call him or to ask him if I could speak to him. I needed some advice. I'd heard his podcast. I, I thought, there's an individual that, that probably could help me decide, you know, if and how I should encourage my boys, my two older boys, uh, at that time to serve missions. And because of all the issues that we didn't want our boys going out on a mission, um, trusting us, their parents— now think about that for a moment. These are people that they— we have a great relationship, they trust us implicitly, um, they were very much keen, committed to go on missions, partly because they wanted to you know, be obedient or to do the right thing. They were being encouraged by parents that they love and respect, and they trusted us that that was the right thing to do for them. They said, Mom, Dad, if, if you think this is the right thing to do, then we will do that. You know, we will honor the church, honor the principles, honor the missionary call from the Prophet, honor the parents, and we will go out and devote our 2 years and, and live, uh, and have a fulfilled, rewarding missionary experience. And we will give our all. Um, so we couldn't in good conscience send our boys out who are very innocent and, and, and know or understand a certain version of the church, um, a certain narrative that the traditional narrative which is in the, um, Preach My Gospel, uh, manual. And by the way, I've had two conversations with mission presidents who said when I've asked them about these other materials in the essays do they teach that? And they— and twice have, have they responded and said, again, two different mission presidents, they said that if it's not in the Preach My Gospel official material, then we don't teach it, end quote. And so we couldn't in good conscience send our boys out knowing that there were serious issues, um, and then finding out these issues, um, and then having a problem because they're very, um, innocent, uh, they trust us They trusted the church, and then they find these issues through less active members or online, or someone asked them a question online or whatever, and then they write home and ask me a question. And then I— what do I do? Do I lie to them? Do I say, you know, keep— stay obedient, these questions are not the right questions, you're not asking the right questions, uh, put it to the side, deal with it when you come back? We're just not like that. We couldn't be like that. We certainly didn't want to be like that. So I needed some advice, uh, about what to do with our boys. Do we send them on missions? Do we continue the path and as they were heading in that direction to serve missions. And like your boys, my boys are just extraordinary people and very trusting of the parents. So Hans accepted my request or invitation to meet, to have a conversation, and I called him. We had two conversations on a phone call from Calgary, and I explained, you know, my background, my situation, situation with my boys, and I asked him, Hans, what would you do? Uh, what would you do? When would you do it? How do you do it? And he gave me some excellent advice, which, uh, actually was a lifesaver, um, in regards to the boys. And, and the conclusion after that call, um, and we discussed this as a family later, was, was not to send our boys on missions, uh, to be completely honest, brutally honest about the issues and concerns at some point, to have that conversation with the boys, which we did. We did later, um, you know, a few weeks later, having really thought about this and prepared for this. And, um, he said some extraordinary things which I, I don't want to share here, but profound counsel, wonderful man. Um, and basically the message was that, um, think carefully before you send your boys out on missions. But going back to the church at the time, yeah, I was, I was still active. I was on the— where was I? Was I still in the stake presidency at the time? Wrestling with these issues. Do we send the boys out? Who could I turn to? I couldn't turn to my stake, my, you know, my— any member of the stake presidency or my bishop, because it would flag up that I have concerns or doubts. I couldn't go to family in the UK because they were all active and, you know, and I didn't want to disrupt those relationships. We felt a bit isolated, alone. I'd listened to some podcasts. But I couldn't get anything that was specific to my situation, our situation. I found, you know, if you've got a problem, you go to your bishop and you trust the bishop will help you and not disclose anything personal. And you get, you receive very personal counsel advice, which I think is great, or can be great if the advice is good. And so Hans was instrumental in our decision not to send the boys on full-time missions. Um, we eventually opened up with the boys, explained our concerns, issues, and, uh, they were incredibly, um, uh, positive and, and responsive and actually deeply, immensely respectful that we had put them first and their mental, uh, well-being, um, and physical well-being first before the church. And I, again, there's no way I couldn't live with myself setting my sons into, uh, you know, to, to promote, uh, and teach things that— some things at least that I realized at that time either had issues or simply were not true or wasn't the full truth. Uh, in hindsight, that decision, uh, to have that conversation and, and eventually, uh, which led to my boys deciding themselves unilaterally to decide not to, uh, continue to go to church— they stopped going to church has turned out to be, for us as a family, for them, for me personally and other members of family, certainly for them, to be absolutely the right thing to do. We've talked about it since, and the boys see missionaries approaching them or trying to contact them online, and they've also heard and seen of the struggles that our current missionaries who are serving across the world today, how they struggle and often keep their concerns and issues to themselves privately. There is a worry in mission, you know, you talk about missions being driven by guilt. I don't think that's true. It certainly was in our mission. I think that is in most missions. That's not the best motivator by any means. And I think you've got that same guilt motivation that exists today with the current missionaries. I know of several missionaries, too many actually, who are fearful of sharing their thoughts and concerns about gospel topics. Uh, they've read essays, they've got questions, and they've been instructed and reminded by the mission president to stay true to the— on the covenant path, as, as we told— and to stay, uh, realize— just focus on the material in the Preach My Gospel, Book of Mormon, Bible. Stay away from this other material, stay away from these questions. If you have concerns, Pray, fast, talk to us. By the way, if you have concerns, by all means, email and write home. And by the way, in case you don't know, we do read your emails through the LDS server. And I do know that that has happened. I know from firsthand experience that— I won't share the name, but people I know personally, really, really well, who have shared their experience on a mission recently. They came home, they came home early, and the mission president was somewhat destructive in that, in this individual's life, and had a profound negative impact on this individual, affected their self-esteem, self-worth. And the mission president, in my opinion, understanding and trusting this individual who got sent home, had, um, had made that decision wrongly, uh, incorrectly. This person shouldn't have gone home, um, and it's had a very negative impact and effect on, on them as an individual. And so there is that leadership roulette for sure that happens at the mission president level. Mission presidents are under immense pressure, intense pressure to get the numbers up and to do what they can to use the mission resources, but it's failing. The online is failing, it's failing our people, failing the young missionaries. It's not the same experience that they're having. There's immense amount of guilt, mental health-related issues, as I've seen, and they're desperate to find— I feel sorry for them because they're under intense pressure to have some success, and they're not meeting people, they're not getting the referrals. The mental health is at risk, many of them, and it's completely messing with their life and messing with their mind. And I think it's, I think it's a tragedy., and they, and they can't talk. They don't feel safe to open up to their companion, who'll write to the mission president about his companion, or speak to the APs or the zone leader or the mission president, because, um, they're now seen as a problem missionary, and they don't want to be seen as a problem missionary. They want to come back as a successful missionary, but they're hiding and, and, and, and, uh, covering up these very serious, uh, conflicts which are not very good for your mental health.

You point out the fact that they're not knocking on doors as much, although my son still knocked on doors. They did what they called, they clapped. Says you couldn't walk up to a door and knock on it. You'd stand at the fence and you'd clap your hands to let them know you were there. I think that was an Argentinian thing. But the knocking on doors, the 19th century, '50s sales model, uh, is still alive and well. Although COVID, I think, forced the church to look at more online things. And yes, they're doing more and more things online. The, the problem is the mindset. Even if you're doing stuff online, the mindset is still aimed at the kind of door-to-door thinking that we had 35 years ago. Um, because, you know, you talk about, oh, you're not allowed to talk about this, you're not allowed to talk about that. Uh, well, okay, that works in an environment where there's no internet and the only way that you can find any disturbing information about the church is from weird little pamphlets that pastors deliver to people. You know, you've had that experience, I've had that experience. You're teaching somebody And then all of a sudden they show up with this pamphlet that their pastor gave them. And I was always quick to say, aha, see, Satan knows that we're, we're having success here and is trying to thwart us. Uh, and that kind of a mindset is still in place in a world where all of that information is at everybody's fingertips and It comes instantly. The minute you spend 5 minutes on Google asking questions about the church, you'll find out about polygamy, you'll find out about racism, you'll find out, you know, about the church's $100 billion that are— that they're stockpiling. I mean, you'll find out every piece of information that you're not supposed to talk about. And, and sending these missionaries into those discussions and saying you can't talk about these things, even things, as you point out, that are in the Gospel Topics Essays that the church has actually published. They're not allowed to talk about them. So you're sending these missionaries out and tying their hands behind their back and saying, get to work. And it just— I, I've said this many times to people, is that the church is in the middle of a transition that it's not willing to admit that it's in. You know, uh, I mean, it applies to missionary work, but I think it applies to just about everything that the church is doing. Uh, the church is being dragged kicking and screaming into the information age and refuses, uh, to, to acknowledge the reality of how information is, is passed and how information is exchanged and how— I mean, we keep trying to pretend that what David O. McKay did in the 1950s is still, is still something that works, and it isn't. And, and, but the problem is we have not struck upon the thing that does work. And so if I were made president of the church, I think half the church would apostatize because they'd be very disturbed that some goofball like me is ascended to that office. But were that to happen and I were in charge of the missionary program, what I would do is I would transform the missionary program into a 100% service mission. Uh, that is to say, there'd be some specialization. I mean, I think that some missionaries could be called as teaching missionaries or something, but the reality is, uh, the way that we are going to influence the world and the way that we are going to get people to look at the church and say, that's something that is valuable, that's something I want to be a part of is to set the church up as what Jesus called the light on the hill. Now, you know, it— imagine, for instance, that you, you're the Red Cross and you realize that you have a, a constant stream of volunteers in the form of Mormon missionaries who are going to come and they're going to essentially work for the Red Cross, and they're not going to proselyte. They're just going to work as service missionaries trying to help other people. Uh, how much good for the church would that do? I think it would do so much more, and I think it would lead to more convert baptisms. Because, you know, you joined the church, uh, not because you were persuaded by some kind of powerful doctrinal thesis or, you know, some kind of Bible-bashing argument. You joined the church because you found yourself in a group of people that you admired and that, that had something you didn't and something you wanted. Uh, and I, I would posit that 80, 90% of the people who join the church, if not higher, do so for the same reasons. They don't do so for theological reasons necessarily. They, they do so because the church has demonstrated something to them that is adding something to their life that they did not have. And so if we were to send out missionaries and say, you're going to spend 2 years essentially in the Peace Corps, you're going to spend 2 years serving people, you're going to— inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me. You are going to spend 2 years in Christlike service. And when people come and everybody will know who you are, we may be saying, okay, but we'll wear a name tag or we'll do whatever. But everybody will know that you're members of the church, and the church's reputation will be a reputation for a service organization in a way that, that will start the kinds of conversations that lead to baptisms. You don't start those kinds of conversations at a phone call, at a doorstep, wearing a suit in a country that— and a white shirt in a country that doesn't dress like that and you're an American. And I mean, we have to adapt. And I— that, that would be how I would do it. And the pushback when I talk about that, it's like, well, that's not really a mission, right? You and I spent time in Thurso. I think he's probably passed away by now. He'd be in his 90s. But there was a couple missionaries. I don't want to even say their names because I don't want to— anyway, but, uh, I know whom you speak of. You know whom I speak of. There was a couple missionaries, and this guy, I remember he went on splits with you. He wanted— he didn't want to— he was called to be the branch president of that little tiny branch that had 3 people in it, but he didn't want to do that. He wanted to be a missionary. Right? He wanted to knock on doors, and he would scream at people on their doorsteps. And, and I remember I finally called the mission president and said, this is not working, this guy's scary, he's scaring everybody. And, uh, so President Banks came up to Thurso and sat down in a room, and this elderly missionary said, I don't even feel like I'm on a mission. He says, why am I here? I'm not even on a mission. You want me to like manage church meetings and you want me to do all this, but I want to be on a mission. I want to convert people. And he eventually got pulled from that assignment and was sent somewhere else. But I mean, you have really funny stories. I remember you coming back from splits with this guy and your face was ashen white. And you said, oh, let me tell you about my afternoon.

It was a few times I looked like, you know, as white and pale as I did, that interacting with that individual. And he was a good man. I think he had a good heart, but his style and approach was scary. I lost count how many— I think I was with him for a few hours, maybe the day, and It was pretty intense. And he, the people was, he'd tell them who they are and they would say, look, we're not interested. And he was like, what? How? What do you mean you're not interested? This is the truth. We have the truth. And he said, well, yeah, but we go to the Church of Scotland. The Church of Scotland is of the devil. He would say, it's of the devil. This is not the true church. We are the true church. This is the way forward. This is the path to salvation. 'You must accept this message.' And on one doorstep, this old man and him got in a little bit of a heated argument, and basically he stamped his foot down and with a bright red phrase said, 'You are going to hell.' I was speechless. And so I said, 'Look, you know, Elder So-and-so, just go to the gate, walk to the gate.' I did this a few times on the mission with missionaries and some couples. It was difficult. And so I apologized. I said this in Israel. I said, I'm so sorry. I said, he's from America. He's from America. And I said, he's from this, he's got a different take on religion. I'm so sorry. This person was so upset. We had so many of those um, angry conversations between this, uh, this individual and people on the door. It was very uncomfortable. He wasn't cut out for knocking on doors. He was very offended. He couldn't understand why they weren't opening the doors, letting him in, and accepting the gospel. He just couldn't figure out why they weren't feeling the Spirit. He also told people on the door that they didn't feel the Spirit because they were sinning. He even said to somebody, you're probably living with somebody out of, you know, out of marriage, and therefore you don't have the spirit with you. And you go to your church, Church of Scotland, you're not gonna have the spirit with you. And, and so it, it was very offensive for people on the door. And, and I had, I had to take him aside a few times and, and have some very strong words with him. And I, I, I just couldn't make any progress. That, that was a whole experience in itself for sure. Um, going to your point there, your really important point, and you stole my thunder, by the way. Um, it's, that's okay. That's good. It was no surprise and no coincidence that just as you were talking earlier, and I know I've known this for a long, long time. I'm not saying I have all the answers. I'm not the only one. The idea didn't come from me, nothing like that. I can't take credit for it. But the answer staring at the leaders, in front of the leaders right now, under their nose right now, is to have all that significant global missionary force and those resources commit to service projects. Where they're not focusing primarily on baptisms or proselyting or trying to, you know, teach so many lessons in a day, etc. They're actually out there in civilian dress, by the way, civilian dress, sure, keep the name tag on, that's fine. But actively involved in outreach programs with charities, with organizations, helping, you know, food drives, for example, look at the cost of food right now, right? The cost of food has gone through the roof. Could we not have them organizing a food drive, for goodness sake, right? We have a annual state food drive, but couldn't we apply all those mission efforts globally to organizing a food drive or doing more meaningful service projects which are having a direct impact on people's level of poverty? We have energy poverty going on, we have food poverty going on, we have people who can't afford the water bills. You've got $120 billion that the church has sat on, a significant resource in the mission effort. By the way, this happened a couple of times when I visited the UK from Canada. At one time I was in Edinburgh and I was in a— with a friend staying at a B&B, an old friend of mine. We prepared our mission together. We were heading out into Edinburgh from near Collinton Road, near the mission. We went into the mission home, by the way, and we had an interesting conversation. That's another time for another podcast. But we stood at the bus stop there just near Collington Road where the mission home is. And we were heading into Edinburgh on the double, the, the Crimson double-decker buses, right? And at the bus stop there was an outreach poster and it was designed, it was a help the poor, you know, feed the poor. It was something, I can't remember the exact words, but it was, it was a number of churches, Church of Scotland, the Free Church of Scotland was involved, the Methodist Church, and it listed about 6, 7, maybe 8 churches and some other charities that were in Edinburgh that were working together to help the homeless. Actually, it was the homeless shelters in Edinburgh, and I've had some direct experience with homeless shelters in Edinburgh through a charity actually that I owned and operated a number of years ago. And so this was a poster at a bus stop talking about the needs that these homeless individuals have. And you had all these churches listed. And the one thing that just struck me, struck me really hard was, where's our church? Where the heck is our church? We're organized. We're a super intelligent church. We're very well organized. We coordinated and resourced almost every level. We've got all these resources. We have all this money. We teach Christian principles and what Jesus Christ taught to, you know, feed the homeless, help the needy, you know, fundamental principles of, of, uh, what Jesus Christ taught. Um, helping people, you know, feeding people, housing people, etc., who are homeless, etc. You couldn't get more basic than that. And there, there we are, there we see this poster, and the church is not even referenced, um, at all.. And so I find that an absolute tragedy. And I've tried to have these conversations, Jim, with General Authorities, and I think one Apostle. And if they can hear this right now, I don't know if they see it, know it. It's too expensive. I think that's the factor, without sounding too cynical. But this solution, because the missionary program right now is completely broken, totally broken at every level. It's not only affecting people's lives, it's damaging their lives, right? It's destructive. It actually is destructive on some of the young people's lives and, you know, mental health. And I know this from seeing situations or individuals' personal lives firsthand. People have come to me for help as a friend. They're struggling and they're leaving, and I've left and they've come to me and approached me because their parents, who I know, have said, you know, go speak to Ian, he might be able to help. And so you've got this failed program that's been failing for you know, a generation and, you know, decades. You've got this new missionary proselyting method of online, which is completely failing. And why on earth can the Catholic General Authority see what's in plain sight, a unique and valuable opportunity to put these missionaries and the members to service projects where they will do better work, more meaningful. And the church's name and the reputation for being kind and offering service free of charge, and blessing the lives of all these people. And for goodness sake, there's a lot of people that need a lot of help, especially right now with the economy, as you know, that's happening here in Canada, US, and certainly happening in the UK right now, especially the UK right now with the economic climate that's going on right now. Why on earth the church doesn't can't wake up and see the opportunity. And I think it's because it takes, um, it's a lot of money. I mean, for example, why are the church not opening up the buildings to the homeless? Uh, why are they using the buildings to put on ornate objects, ornaments, like, um, you know, Christmas, uh, ornaments? Um, I'm, I'm being specific here on a stake that I know really well, that the members came and put all these wonderful Santa Claus, Jesus Christ ornaments up and these other Christmas ornaments and decorations and then invited people from the community to come in and have a look. The numbers are incredibly embarrassing, but it doesn't do anything. People don't remember that, that you've got some fancy ornament in the house, you brought it to the church. Church is completely lost. We're devoid of leadership in this area. If the apostles can hear this, if you're an apostle of Jesus Christ, and you can hear this, do the right thing. Be an apostle. Be a real apostle, true apostle, do what Christ did, and apply all of those resources or many of the resources to helping people right now who are in desperate need, individuals who are homeless, who are hungry, and kids, LDS kids even, who go to bed each night hungry. Please, for goodness sake, can't you see the opportunity? And can't you see the timing is now? And if you do that, and you're looking at reward, fine, you'll get the reward. The reward can be, you know, improved reputation, more baptisms, fine. If that's what you want, if that's what your focus is, I don't doubt you'll get more baptisms. But do it because it's the right thing to do. Do it because it's the best thing to do and do it because people's lives need saving. And you as leaders, as apostles and general authorities, have an opportunity and a spiritual and sacred obligation to follow the fundamentals of Christ and to apply as much of the financial and other resources that you have to help these people, because people are desperate for it, especially right now. And the opportunity is there. And the church needs to, it just needs to have leadership. It just needs to have leadership. But as I said before, we're doing more work for the dead. We're helping the dead more than we are the living, and the living are dying. And I've even had a leader say to me, look, if we can't help them in the living, when they die, we'll help them when they're dead. I was absolutely appalled at that. And and took, you know, took exception to that and called this person out for that. So I feel very strongly about this, as you do. And I'm glad you brought this up because it's a really important, you know, requirement. And I think it would— if you want to transform the church, Jim, you want to change the church, I can't think of a better area to improve the church across the entire church structure and program than to commit more resources to helping the needy. I think it's a conduit. I think it's a pathway to greater improvement and development of the church across the entire church. I think it would be the catalyst that would change the church at every level if they were able to show and demonstrate real apostle, um, uh, disciple leadership in the way that Christ demonstrated when he was alive. He was in the fields, he was in the homes blessing lives and helping them and feeding them. And, you know, we're in our office in Salt Lake City and we're looking at numbers and looking at spreadsheets and looking at what we can do to strategize and how we can use the missionary effort on the, you know, the social media, let's look at technology. To get the numbers up. The church is lost. The leadership are lost on this front for sure. Anyway, I feel very passionate about this, as you can tell.

Well, and I know you have said very brilliant things here, and I think we'll let that be the last word. We're coming up at the end of this episode. So those of you listening, please make sure that you subscribe to our podcast wherever you get podcasts. And until next time, we'll see you on Inside Out. Thank you, Ian.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.