The Voice of the People Doth Choose Iniquity

Hello and welcome to the very latest episode of Inside Out. I'm Ian Wilkes, um, I'm here with my wonderful, inspiring podcast partner, the one and true only Jim Bennett.

Hello, how are you?

Is me starting off in the most enthusiastic, excited way and you are struggling to match my enthusiasm?

Well, I'm struggling to match a lot of enthusiasm these days. Uh, at least these last few days. Anyway, yet I interrupted you. You, you were, you were introducing the podcast. Perhaps. That's okay.

That's okay. I, I'm, I'm really excited and interested interested, uh, to talk about the US election. I think it's a major event. I think it impacts not just Americans, but people across the world. I'd like to get into some of that. I'd love to have a, a, if we can, a balanced conversation about it. You know, there are people at all political persuasions, but I just want to again extend a warm welcome to all the listeners to the, uh, Only True and Living podcast. Upon the face of the earth, in whom the Lord is somewhat pleased, I think, with us. We'll see where, you know, we'll try to see what he thinks about what's going on in the world. I think if there's any time we need the Lord, Jim Bennett, you know, in the second coming, and I said it before, I think now would be a good time.

I think now would be a good time as well. A little bit of housekeeping. We have actually recorded another podcast where we continued answering those survey questions, and I want people to listen to know that, uh, we want to answer all those survey questions, but we have sort of interjected this because the world has changed dramatically since our last episode release. And so we thought we probably need to be able to discuss this. So I just wanted to let people know that we haven't dropped the ball on the survey questions. We're going to continue to answer those, but today we're going to talk about the end of the world. So that's how I see it at the moment.

Yes, I appreciate you bringing that about the questionnaire because I'm really enjoying getting to those questions at the, um, that survey that the church did. So, uh, again, check back in soon. We'll, we'll, we'll have that, um, third installment of that, uh, review of the question, the survey questions there from the church shortly. Uh, the election of Donald Trump, the 47th president of the United States, and the signing of well over 100 executive orders, 130 executive orders, major, um, decisions. Um, and, uh, I just noticed there breaking news that Trump signs new executive order as part of a crackdown with US-Mexico border. I have to say from the outset that, um, I think we can agree that there are some many challenges facing America and the world. You know, immigration is not just a problem in the US, it's a problem in the UK, for example. You know, economic security is a challenge, food security, energy security. These are all understandable common areas of shared concern across the world. You know, right now, for example, here I am in Canada, and the last 10 days, the politicians here have been scrambling. We've had a resignation of Justin Trudeau. Who I believe Trump is taking credit for, and his demise was well before, uh, his demise was in the, in, in the making for the last year or so because of a whole series of corruptions and scandal going on within Canada. Nothing to do with Trump. Trump can't take any credit for that. Notwithstanding, we are seeing, uh, political, significant political changes here in Canada, and we are seeing now the threat of 25% tariffs being placed on, uh, a whole range of raft of Canadian goods and services. And the politicians here are scrambling to try to come up with a solution how to deal with Trump part 2, part 2, 1.2. So we, you know, the whole country's talking about it. My friends, colleagues are talking about it. It's affecting business here. There's concerns about what that means for business, for a whole range of, you know, public policies, the economy of Canada. Canada is about the 10th size economically of the US, very insignificant militarily, economically. You know, when Canada goes to trade negotiations with the US, the analogy is that Canada's— it's like going to a gunfight with a knife. The size and scale difference between Canada and the US in terms of power is is, uh, significant. I, I, it's interesting because I think, uh, Trump is talking about a political union, um, the convergence, if you like, you know, Canada being the 51st state of the United States. So a, not just an economic union, but a political one. Uh, I, that's not gone down very well. However, that said, uh, there are people in Canada, many, and, and me to some extent, open to the idea of a economic union with the United States. I see a lot of advantages, a lot of benefits from that. So these big announcements, these big executive orders, uh, which Trump has, um, signed, 130 or thereabouts, some are very controversial. We can look at that. Uh, the release of the, um, January 6th, um, perpetrators is interesting as well. I'd love to talk about, get your opinion on that. You know, when he's got his hand, uh, you know, the oath, of the, um, signing in of the oath and the president's, uh, speaking the oath there, uh, to the president in the Constitution. Interesting how that reconciles that with being a convicted felon and then releasing, um, uh, people who committed felony and treason under the law of the US. I'd love to get into that with you. But back home here in Canada, we, we're all panicking, we're scrambling, panicking maybe Panicking? Not yet. We'll see. He said that tariffs will be implemented February 1st, then he's changed the date. But there's quite a bit of panic. Probably panic is the right word. There's concern over the union of Canada. Alberta's broken off and wants to develop its own energy program with the US. It's concerned that it didn't want to get hit by the tariffs. So a whole series, a raft of executive orders. Some I think are okay. We can get into that. Maybe some are very controversial, but just to get your, you know, initial high-level reaction, your thoughts and feelings on, uh, the election, you know, the, the, um, you know, the first day or so with President Trump and what you think is going on. And, uh, and then we'll go from there and we'll see where this conversation goes.

Um, okay. I don't know where to start. And I don't, so again, I mean, can I help you?

Sorry to interrupt. Can I help you? Sorry, because I know this is difficult. Any, you see any good things forecasted or in the first couple of days, anything good?

No.

Okay.

I mean, the only good I can think of is that, it's so bad that maybe it will inspire, inspire enough resistance that we'll be able to come out of it intact. But I don't even see that because, you know, I did not think that Trump was going to be elected. I did not think that we were this fallen as a nation. And we are. And so, no, I don't see anything good within the last couple of days. I was texting a friend who I said, I thought it would, this is worse than I imagined it would be. And I imagined it would be pretty awful. So this is not a political podcast. And so I want to frame this in terms of the purpose of the podcast, which is exploring the church from the inside and from the outside. And my biggest negative reaction to this is what it says about our church and about our faith. And, you know, I've got a bunch of— I've gone off of Twitter. I no longer go to— I know the only thing I post on Twitter are links to our episodes. And my Twitter account is private, so you can only see my tweets if you follow me. And I'm not accepting any new followers and I don't go to Twitter. But a friend of mine pointed out that there's an account on Twitter that I don't know. It's an anonymous account, but they screenshotted me from Bluesky, which is where I, I'm posting now. And I recommend anybody, you can come find me, JimBennett.BSKY.social. Is my handle and my username. And, and but they screenshotted it. And I, and what I had said was, it's a cruel irony that we're inaugurating fascism on Martin Luther King Day. And they screenshotted it and they just said, Jim, something like, Jim is lost to TDS. TDS being Trump Derangement Syndrome. And then a whole lot of members of the church were like, oh yeah, he's terrible, he's lost. One guy's like, I used to respect him and now he's gone because, uh, and as, as I looked at that, it's the first time I've looked at anything on Twitter for months. Uh, I just thought this, it's not just how far we've fallen as a nation, it's how far we've fallen as a church. If people can see opposition to Donald Trump as somehow faithless— I mean, the only criticism— I didn't say anything about the church. My only criticism was about Donald Trump, and the criticism I'm getting from fellow church members is, "Jim Bennett is faithless because look how much he is disturbed by Donald Trump." And this is— I talk about the crisis of faith that I had after the election and that I'm still having to some degree. I mean, I made peace with it. I was wrestling with the idea, do I need to quit the Tabernacle Choir? And thankfully, we weren't asked to perform at the inauguration. I wouldn't have performed at the inauguration. I actually— we were asked to perform at the inauguration. Of Spencer Cox, the Utah governor. And I've got no real beef with Spencer Cox, but I chose not to participate in that just because any connection to politics at the moment is not good for my mental health. It's just— I've gotten through the time between the election and the time of the inauguration by literally ignoring— I won't look at his face. I won't look at his— I won't listen to his voice. And I'm hesitant to even call him by name. He is just so loathsome and so loathsome because of my faith, not in spite of my faith. Not as a departure from my faith. Everything I have been taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints runs contrary to everything that Agent Orange stands for. And that's what I'm calling him these days. Everything he represents. And so here we have the inauguration. Here we have the inaugural speech, which I did not watch. But which I have read the news about and I've seen the executive orders. And we've already begun preparing for concentration camps, preparing for mass deportations. He's going to begin by sending 1,500 troops to the border. He is going to send military units into the streets of Chicago to begin the mass deportations, which are contrary to the position of the church, which the church has taken very strong When he was president last time, the church spoke out against his immigration proposals. The church, the church's policy positions on immigration run entirely contrary to what's being proposed now. And yet somehow I'm faithless because I oppose this man, this, this odious, vile, vicious man., who has committed sexual assault, who is a convicted felon, who tried to overthrow the government. Somehow my faith is in question because I find this unsettling. I'm somehow deranged because I find this unacceptable. And it is, it's, it's entirely unacceptable. So the difficulty I have talking about this as if this is normal is that it is not normal, or it should not be normal, but it has become normal. The fact that now all of those, those, uh, charges against Trump have been dismissed because he's now president, uh, he will not be punished for his felonies. Thankfully, the felonies will still be on his record. He can't say he's not a felon, but, uh, they waived all punishment for, for any of that. We now live in a country, or at least I live in a country— I'd very much like to live in your country— because my country now no longer believes in the rule of law. My country no longer believes that it's unacceptable to try to overthrow the government. He has pardoned 1,500 people who engaged in violent riots that left 5 people dead and were summarily sentenced for their crimes. And he has, he has pardoned all of them, 1,500 people, including, uh, people who assault police officers. Republicans are supposed to be the law and order party. And somebody was asking him, he's like, well, why did you pardon this guy who tased a police officer and put him in the hospital. And his only answer was, well, I don't know. I mean, we have gone through the looking glass. We are on the other side to the point where we no longer believe in the rule of law. We no longer believe that decency matters. We know— and see, this is the thing that drives me nuts about this, is that it's not that I'm politically opposed to him. It is that I am morally opposed to him. And the fact that people cannot see that difference, the fact that people frame this as, well, here's his one policy I like, but I don't like that policy. I'm gonna talk about this. It's the Bart Simpson, you know, when Sideshow Bob was running for mayor and Homer Simpson goes, well, I don't like his kill Bart policy, but I do like his kill Selma policy. I mean, you can't normalize this and not come away damaged as a nation. Uh, I posted on Facebook that all of us can now remember where we were when America ended. And I really feel that way. I feel like America has ended. It's not like democracy is at risk. Democracy essentially is over because we have simply turned over our morality, our decency to a man who has none of his own and is willing to just take all of ours and, and burn it on the altar of sacrifice to power and mendacity and evil. So, so, you know, so that's my frame of mind. So you're more than— I'm more than happy to answer specific questions. And engage in a specific discussion, but I am not coming at this as, well, jeesh, I'm going to weigh, you know, some good policy proposals with some bad policy proposals. I'm coming at this with, we have just elected Satan. And I can't imagine Satan being a worse person than Donald, than We— he's just— he's evil. We— I live in a country that has now signed up for fascism, and we have an evil, evil want-to-be dictator who will very likely succeed at being a dictator, I think, as time goes forward. Um, so that's where I am. Where are you?

Oh boy, uh, I'm, uh, um, worried about— I just wanted to say, by the way, you were right to remind us and certainly remind our listeners that we are— we're not a political podcast, we're a religious podcast. There is— we need to make, always make that correlation between the church and state. Uh, and by the way, I think the church sent two apostles to the inauguration. And good. I can, I give you my natural instinct response from that, and I think it's, uh, reliable. I think it's very consistent with a way a lot of people might feel maybe. And is my interpretation of that is that the church endorses Donald Trump. If you don't agree with someone, you don't show up at their inauguration. I mean, you deliberately do not show., and you make a statement saying, you know, you don't, uh, why you're not showing and you don't agree with some of the policies. I can only, uh, presume that the church, by sending the two apostles, um, agree with and endorse and support Donald Trump, which is worrying. The church says it doesn't take a position politically. I— does he send It's every inauguration then. I think it probably does send someone, some representative then. Is that right?

Well, I had a conversation with Mike Leavitt, who is the president of the Tabernacle Choir and, uh, former governor of Utah and actually a former cabinet secretary of Health and Human Services in the Bush administration. And the conversation was about my concern that the choir was going to be asked to sing at the inauguration. And he told me that they had not been asked and that if they had been asked, it would have been difficult for us to do it because we are preparing to go to Peru on tour. But he told me a story about President Hinckley coming to his inauguration when he was inaugurated as Utah's governor in 1992. He was elected the same year my father was elected to the Jim Bennett and my father were very good friends. He spoke at my father's funeral. And he said that President Hinckley said to him, "I want you to know, Governor Leavitt, that we're not here for you. We're here out of respect for your office." And he insisted, and I believe the Church believes this, he insisted that when the choir sang the last time, at the Trump inauguration in 2017, um, that they were there to honor the, the presidency, not to honor the president. And I do believe that that was the thinking behind, uh, what the apostles did. And I, I do think they send apostles to inaugurations. I think that this is normal But there's that word again, because we're treating something that isn't normal as normal, which is a problem. Somebody else also made the point that in 2020, it took the church 3 weeks to acknowledge, um, President Biden's victory and to publicly congratulate him. They publicly congratulated Donald Trump the day after the election. So, uh, there's a disparity there in their willingness to just quickly acknowledge, whereas Joe Biden had won the election, uh, within— I mean, you can say, well, you— the, the outcome wasn't as, as certain the day after. Well, that's true. It was certain within 2 days. You didn't have to wait 3 weeks But they did, and they didn't wait 3 weeks for Donald Trump. They very happily and cheerfully congratulated him the day after the election. So I don't think church leaders see this as an endorsement. I think church leaders see this as normal. But that's That's the problem. That's the problem. It was the problem all throughout the campaign that the church treated this like just another election, and it wasn't. It wasn't just another election. This was an election where we voted to end constitutional protections. Already Donald Trump has issued an executive order nullifying the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. Which says that every person born in the United States is a citizen of the United States. And by executive order, Donald Trump has said that is no longer true. Now, this will be subject to court challenges, and it may very well be that Donald Trump is unsuccessful in nullifying an amendment to the Constitution unilaterally, but it's not a sure thing. This is where we are now. We are where, geez, when Donald Trump does something that is on its face blatantly unconstitutional, we don't know whether or not that's going to be held up. We don't know if the Constitution is going to continue to stand. He has gotten people on the Supreme Court who have told him that what he does is he— that he essentially, he is above the law, that he is immune from prosecution even if he commits criminal acts while he is in office. So, I mean, that's terrifying. And, you know, and the church, we're the ones that continue to say that the Constitution is inspired and that we're the ones who will save the Constitution as it hangs by a thread. And here we are handing the scissors to the guy who's trying to cut the thread in as many places he possibly can.

So, no, I wanted to talk to you about this, about the relationship between the church and Trump. You know, they sent two apostles. They've done that before. It's fairly common custom and custom. We use the word normal Things certainly are not normal. In normal circumstances, I can understand the church sending a delegation of leaders, whoever wins. I get that church, it's important the church has a relationship with the, a good relationship with the federal government. However, it's also important of the church being the only true church on the earth to take a stand when things are, excuse me, are not normal. And we are living in a very strange, unusual, and abnormal period. You asked me for my reaction, my concern as a non-American Canadian, uh, Brit, or you Brit-Canadian here. I'm concerned about, uh, the economy in Canada. You know, it's going to— it could have a pretty severe impact on, um, on the, the Canadian economy as a whole. So that's, that's a factor. I'm concerned that the, the term guardrails that most democratic nations have in place with and for their leaders in the US, those guardrails now I think are being bulldozed down, smashed, changed, modified, reorganized. I, I think it's a radical shakeup of the American political system. Those political guardrails, those guardrails that keep, uh, presidents in checks, the checks and balances which you need, you know, you can't have one individual who's got supreme ultimate power, you know, they end up becoming like Darth Vader or the Emperor, you know, the, um, the Emperor, you know, the Supreme High Lord Commander, uh, who dictates every single thing and controls a, a dictator, essentially an individual who has no respect for, for law. I think when that happens, and it's certainly happening in the UK as well, um, you know, a lot of, uh, laws have, have been, um, modified and changed, you know, our system, we have a parliamentary system, you have a very different system. But my concern with the, um, with Trump is, you know, where's the checks and balances? Where's the guardrails? Where's the respect for law? I, you know, when I was watching the inauguration, uh, it didn't, I don't think he put his hand on the Bible.

No, he didn't.

He didn't put his hand on the Bible. Anyway, the Bible was used as a A, um, you know, it's always been used traditional, uh, um, symbol of, of truth and, and, uh, divinity and, and, uh, you know, allegiance to God. Uh, and, and Trump is a Christian. He believes that. He believes that his life was spared to save America again, that angels were watching, watching him and guarding him and making sure that he wasn't, um, assassinated. Um, because he needed to fill, fulfill a, you know, greater purpose, a greater destiny, and that was God-given. So he has a, um, a relationship with his faith that's very important to him. There, the two problems I've got is that when he is raising his right hand to uphold the Constitution of the United States and make these other commitments. The first thought I had was, how does that work if you're a convicted felon? How do you put your right hand up and support the very foundations of America and the principles from which America was based on, the standards and the values which were inspired, I believe, in the church? You said that the church believes that and holds that position. Yet you have someone here who is above the law, who's a convicted, uh, felon. Uh, there's also, while staying on that, on this theme, there's also Trump's reaction to the sermon that was delivered by the church minister there. I think it was yesterday. I don't have a name in front of me. Um, I did watch the video. I did send you a message on that and The, you know, for our listeners, if you haven't seen that, if you just go put in Trump church minister, uh, response, um, the minister, um, I think her name is Maryanne Edgar Bude or Bude, B-U-D-E.

I'm not sure how to pronounce it.

Okay. I couldn't remember her name.

She's an Episcopal bishop.

She's a bishop. Yeah, she's a minister. She's a bishop for the church. She gave an inspiring, um, talk, remarks, comments, uh, communicated directly, looked straight at President Trump in the congregation and talked about many people in the country are worried, they're concerned, they're frightened. She talked about the rights of, um, uh, gay rights and LGBTQ rights, et cetera. And she pleaded with him to show kindness and mercy. She pleaded with him to, uh, consider kindness and mercy in his immigration policies. I, you know, I, I, I, I can understand to an extent, limited extent, there's a major problem in the, in America with regards to immigration. It is a problem. Um, but I don't think Trump has this hammer solution is not not the solution. And the minister there, the bishop there, was speaking about, uh, pleading with Trump to take a thoughtful, careful, respectful, and measured response. That's what I got from that. I, as I listened to that video a couple of times, I could not find fault with anything that she said. However, Trump's, um, comments, uh, he says here that, uh, he's found her He said President Trump called remarks by the Bishop of the National Cathedral nasty in tone, only hours after she delivered a plea to have mercy on immigrant and refugee, refugee families and LGBTQ Americans. Um, that is disturbing. You know, if, if something like that cannot reach, um, the president of the United States, then he's, as the Book of Mormon teaches, as Nephi taught, he's past feeling. And I think that's the situation, Jim Bennett. I think Trump is past feeling. I believe his relationships are almost entirely transactional. And something else I heard on a news commentary that in order to reach him, to connect with him, to engage him, even to have some level of success with him, you have to deliver on his terms. And his terms are what's best for him. Not America necessarily, clearly not America, not American people, perhaps a lot of them, maybe some of them, but if it ticks all of his personal political boxes and makes him look good. And it's clear if you, if he, and you don't want to listen to him and I can understand that. A lot of the time he grates me, but every time he opens his mouth, almost every time, if not every time, he talks about how great he is and this wouldn't have happened if he was the president. This would have happened if he was president. And that was his idea. It's all about, and it's so obvious to me. Directing credit and attention to himself. It's a personal ego, uh, egomaniac is the word I would use. He's like a, he sees himself as a demigod. And if you don't engage him or don't meet his terms or doesn't make him, if it makes him look good and powerful and gets him, you know, everyone talking about him. I mean, all the mainstream media, you know, if I go to the BBC and the ITV news websites now and other ones that I follow, there's a couple in America, it almost— not every line, but almost every line and sub-headline is him. He's dominating the media, and he loves that. He loves the media attention. He loves the credits. Um, you know, anything else not working is because he's not involved, and that's why it's failing. If it's successful, it's, uh, it's because he's— his, uh, his hand is in it. He's got his hand in So my reaction, I'm very, uh, worried, um, putting it mildly. I'm concerned about obviously how it impacts my family, you know, our life here in Canada, uh, there's economics there. I'm concerned that the, uh, there's a complete disrespect to the rule of law. The laws simply don't matter now. I think, you know, for someone to commit these kind of crimes and to evade any punishment is, I mean, the Book of Mormon in Alma 42, one of my favorite chapters, talks about the relationship between mercy and justice, right? And so when we commit a crime, a sin or a crime, or do something wrong, the church clearly, and you and I taught this, been taught this, taught this. Continue to teach this and, and learn from this, has a process for repentance and forgiveness. So we make a mistake, we say sorry. Well, first of all, we acknowledge that we made a mistake. We acknowledge that we were wrong. I'm trying to remember that simple pattern that the church taught, that we taught as missionaries all those years ago. We recognize that we did something wrong. We, um, uh, we say sorry, we repent. We then try to restore it, we try to fix it, and then we learn from it and don't do it again. And then from there we learn that hopefully we have, because we are forgiven, we have an improved capacity to forgive others 'cause they make mistakes. And we also teach strongly that we obey the law and that we uphold the law and we honor magistrates, kings and queens, and we uphold the law. That's what we say as a church. That's what we teach the members. And Trump, unfortunately, lives in a very different world. He has no respect for the law. He's broken the law. He's evaded punishment. And it, to me, that defeats and frustrates the fundamental principles, not just of the church, but of the human experience. Whereas it, it's like the law of the jungle. You can go and do whatever you want regardless because, and, and don't worry, there are no consequences. There are no guardrails, there's no accountability. And if people are asking questions about your accountability, well, let's deflect them. Let's redirect them onto something else. Let's talk about those things. Um, in order to deflect away from the real intent, the real, um, agenda that Trump has got. And so that's my, I've got a lot more, uh, than just that, to be honest. But there's some of my initial thoughts and concerns. I wanna ask you, Jim Bennett, what do you think is the ultimate intent of Trump? What is he trying to achieve? Is he genuine about wanting to make America a-gain? And I'm sure there's some truth to that. Or is there a-another motive, ulterior motive here, which is what I said earlier? Is it ultimately about him and his legacy and how he marks himself or influences his position in history. Is it those two, or is it, is it those two, or is it more? What do you think, sir, behind his motive? Ultimately, what is he trying to achieve?

Um, that's an actually very simple question to answer. This is a man with severe narcissistic personality, uh, malignant narcissism, malignant narcissist personality disorder. Uh, this is a man who is psychologically incapable of empathy, psychologically incapable of seeing anything from anyone else's point of view, and psychologically incapable of anything beyond a transactional relationship. I mean, this is a pathology. This isn't just that he's evil. Which he is, uh, it's that he does not have the capacity to, um, care about anything, uh, beyond himself and not just himself, but beyond the moment in which he finds himself. Uh, he, he cannot, one of the things that was, was so startling on the campaign trail And still just drives me absolutely nuts that we overlooked it and didn't care. Is, for instance, in the debate where Kamala Harris just destroyed him, which didn't matter because he won, but she destroyed him by getting him to say ridiculous things. Because he's not capable of letting anything go. So all of his advisors were saying, you need to talk about inflation, you need to talk about immigration, you need to talk about issues. And instead, all Kamala Harris has to do is, is bait him into saying they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, and ab— because he can't let it go. And this Episcopal bishop says— I mean, she was very blunt, but she wasn't particularly cruel. She didn't call him names. She didn't insult him. She said, I hope you will have mercy on all of these people who are afraid. And he can't just let that go. I mean, he's frickin' president of the United States with more power than any president of the United States has ever had. Because he has spent the past 4 years, past 8 years dismantling, as you call them, the guardrails that have protected us from a president's worst instincts prior to now. And those guardrails are now entirely gone. And so having an Episcopal bishop, you know, say, have mercy on you, should be something you kind of just laugh off. And move on. Or if you were— had any shred of decency, something you should actively consider and do. But he can't do that. He's not capable of doing that. He's not capable of empathy. He is not capable of envisioning a future of, of any kind. Everything he does is transactional. Everything he does is to satisfy an immediate appetite right in the moment. And this is the, this is the one thing that has the potential to save us, is that that breeds total and utter incompetence. And Trump is totally and utterly incompetent. So What saved us in 2016 and in those 4 years was that he surrounded himself with competent people and he ended up firing all of them because he couldn't stand them. He'll end up firing all the incompetent people that he's just hired because he can't stand it if anybody else is successful. He can't stand it if anybody else gets the limelight. It is all this black hole of insatiable need Everything he does. And, and, but the reason why the incompetence won't save us is that he has surrounded himself with people who, um, will encourage it and will execute on it. Whereas before he was surrounded by people who would at least, who would push back at least to some degree. And they, they get fired and then somebody else gets hired and they get fired. And just, it's going to continue to be like that. One of the things that people aren't talking about as much as they need to, but it shows just how abnormal this is. Every president prior to Donald Trump released all their financial information prior to becoming president. He's the first president to never, we've never had him release his tax return. But more importantly, they've also divested themselves of all of the investments that would enrich them if they were president. If you remember, Dick Cheney came under fire because it took him a, a little while to get out of Halliburton Oil where he, I'm, I think he was the CEO, or at least he was on the board. He had a lot of Halliburton stock and he sold all of it. When he became vice president because he recognized that would be a clear conflict of interest and it would violate the constitutional emoluments clause, which insists that you cannot benefit from foreign governments or foreign nationals, um, paying you if you are president of the United States. This is in the Constitution. And it was completely ignored, Trump's first term. Uh, and now it is so blatantly ignored in the sense that Trump created a new cryptocurrency right before the inauguration that is now worth on paper, uh, upwards of $3 billion to him. I think the total market capitalization is higher than that, but his cut of it. He created $3 billion out of nothing. And now foreign nationals and foreign governments can buy up this, this meme coin as much as they want to and enrich Donald Trump. And it's just absolutely the opposite of what the Constitution says is legal. And there will be no consequence there. And there, there's no mechanism for consequence. The only way that we can say this is bad is if two-thirds of Republicans in the Senate, uh, well, two-thirds of the senators, but which would require, uh, you know, at least 20 or so Republicans, uh, to impeach him, to convict him. And he's been impeached twice. Uh, both times it was an open and shut case that he had done what he was accused of doing. But since impeachment is a political process and not a legal process, you can ignore blatant unconstitutional crimes. This is bribery. This is, this is, you know, the impeachment clause says for bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. But bribery is singled out as the one crime that is absolutely impeachable. And here he is setting up a mechanism where anybody in the world can bribe him. And we can see it happen in broad daylight. And he just laughs. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? There's nothing we can do. And, and this is now normal. This is now normal. When we were furious that it took Dick Cheney too much time to sell his stock, uh, we're now at a place where, oh, here, you want $3 billion based on a non-asset, uh, that is just, uh, a vehicle for money laundering, for people to throw money at you. Here it is. Enjoy. Uh, this is where we are. This is what is normal. This is why I say the United States, it's not that, oh, the country's in danger. The country is pretty much over. Over. Can we rebuild the country in 4 years? I doubt it, but because we're already on track to just destroying all of the rule of law that has held us together as a country until then, and it's just going to get uglier and uglier and uglier. And I know I'm ranting a little too long. One quick other thing, because again, this is not a political podcast. This is a religious podcast. Latter-day Saints voted for Donald Trump by a margin of 2 to 1. I think it was smaller than their margin in 2016. I think it was about the same as the margin which Latter-day Saints voted for Donald Trump in 2020 when he lost. But two-thirds of Latter-day Saints, roughly, voted for Donald Trump thinking that Donald Trump is their friend, that Donald Trump is a friend to the church, that Donald Trump represents the interests of the church. Nothing could be further from the truth, because the people who enable Donald Trump The people that Donald Trump turns to for religious and theological advice are people who hate Latter-day Saints far more than they hate Democrats. They are more than happy to take our votes when we are useful, take our votes, take our money, uh, when we are useful. We are no longer useful to Donald Trump. We may be useful to the Republican Party at large, but Donald Trump has absolutely no incentive to do anything but screw over Latter-day Saints. And remembering that this is a man who is so— is nothing but transactional, is so venal that all he wants to do is get revenge. Who does he hate more than anybody else in terms of elected officials? Who was the only Republican that voted to convict him in the United States Senate who was a member of the Republican Party? Um, that man was Mitt Romney. That man was a Latter-day Saint. And before, um, the man is a Latter-day Saint. And before Donald Trump decided he needed Mormon votes, uh, he said awful things about the church. His advisors have said awful things about the Church. And I really think that all of these MAGA Mormons are in for a rude awakening as all of this stuff comes to unravel and all of the people come to collect from Donald Trump the favors. The first people to be thrown under the bus are going to be the Latter-day Saints. You can take that to the bank. So there, there's my rant. So good. I'm sounding pretty depressing, aren't I?

Well, I, I, the thing is there is, you know, a feeling of depression is not unfounded. I mean, there's a real, this is, it's hard to find the words. This isn't a whole different scale. It's on a different, um, it's in a different universe. It's, um, it's not even in the same universe. It, it, it's, um, I can't find another word. It's, it's monumental. It's cataclysmic. It's apocalyptic. Uh, if he continues on the trajectory of some of the things he wants to do, it's going to be, um, uh, upheaval. Um, I just wanna go back to You were talking a bit about the nature of the man, and rightly so, because he's driven by his nature, you know, the nature of the man. We talk about the nature of the man, right? And then just going back to what I thought was an extraordinary and very kind and very balanced message from Bishop Marian Edgar Boudet, pronounce it right, you know, who led the National Cathedral prayer service at the inauguration. She talked about, you know, she urged him to show mercy and to scared individuals, you know, gay, lesbian, transgender children. She said, you know, these are children in Democratic, Republican, independent families. Some who said were fearing for their lives. She talked about the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbors. They are faithful members of our churches, mosques, and synagogues. Gurdwara and temples. And she also added, God teaches us that we are to be merciful to the stranger, but we want strangers in this land. I thought it was a beautiful message. And then to the nature of the man, in a very lengthy rant on his social media platform, he described Bishop Boudet as a radical left hardline Trump hater. Adding that she brought her church into the world of politics in a very ungracious way, and he criticized the tone as nasty. He also described the service as boring, uninspiring, and, um, she owes an apology, um, needs to deliver a public apology. That's by any normal standards just an extraordinary response to what is a very thoughtful and very kind plea to the President of the United States of America. It's not just quiet and looking in disdain, right? Putting your head down whilst you're speaking and then leaving it there to what you said earlier. The fact that he's reacting with fury and anger to something like that, it just speaks to the nature of the man, which you spoke to earlier. Another reaction I'd like to get from you, maybe that's not the right word because I don't want to cause you any more discomfort than what you're going through already, but I really would like to get your opinion on this as well. What, that was the remarks that Elon Musk gave during, I think it was just the, was it the just post-election gathering where Trump had, you know, he'd been elected of course. And he described the, Trump, sorry, Elon Musk described the event as no ordinary political event. He said, this one really mattered. Thank you for making it happen. Thank you. He then, he also talked about this being a juncture or a turning point in civilization or words to that effect. And then at some point halfway through or towards the end of his remarks, he appeared to give what many are calling a Nazi salute, not just once, twice. I looked at, I watched it. To me, it appears that as though he thumped his heart first and then he gave the salute. And so I was Maybe thinking it wasn't a Nazi salute. It could have been. If it was, it was stupid and disturbing, and it may have been a, um, a Nazi salute. I think we have to— I think that also speaks to the, the answer to that question is also, is that the nature of the man? But he turned around, um, facing the people behind him, and he gave a second, what appeared to be a Nazi salute. I, I was shocked by that. Even if it wasn't that, it's a very stupid thing to do. That salute, um, originally I think came from the Romans. The Roman Empire would give that salute. I think it's in one of the Gladiator movies where they, you know, they tap the chest and they salute Caesar. Uh, I think there's some history with the Romans and the gladiators. And of course, you know, with the Nazi Party. That was a symbol salute to swear devotion and allegiance to Adolf Hitler and his cause of fascism. And so what was your reaction? First of all, did you see that?

Of course.

And secondly, what's your reaction to that?

No, there's no way to miss it. I mean, that's been all over the news everywhere. The sheer stupidity of Elon Musk is breathtaking. I remember the first time I ever heard his name was on The Simpsons. He was a guest star on The Simpsons and he did a terrible vocal performance. I remember thinking, this is the worst. Whoever this guy is, he's a terrible, terrible voice actor. Uh, this was several years ago. But he was introduced on The Simpsons as this colossal genius who came down in a spaceship to visit Homer Simpson, and he was changing the world with his just— and I went, I've never heard of this guy. I didn't realize he was such a genius. If you go watch Star Trek, I think it's either Star Trek Enterprise or might just be Star Trek Discovery. I think it's Star Trek Discovery, which is one of the new Star Trek series. They start talking about the geniuses that shaped the history of the future. You know, this takes place in the 24th century and they talk about Albert Einstein and Elon Musk in the same breath. Elon Musk's name comes up in Star Trek. And so— and Tesla, you know, is just so amazing. So, so initially my, my thought was this guy must be some amazing genius. That's how he's being introduced to the world. You can't trust Star Trek and The Simpsons. Who can you trust? And what's become so apparent is that this man is deeply, deeply stupid. He bought Twitter and ran it into the ground to the point where it has lost something like two-thirds of its user base. It has lost more than two-thirds of its value since it was bought.

He overpaid by $10 billion easily.

Overpaid. An idiot. And just an idiot. And the way he managed it to the point where I can't ever— can't use it again. But over and over and over again, this guy says things that are stupid. This guy does things that are stupid. And and is just a profoundly stupid man with enough money, more money than the entire church combined in one pocketbook, the richest man in the world. So what he does, what he says, we have to pay attention to it. We have no choice but to pay attention to this stupid, stupid, stupid man. So I think it is possible I think it is possible that Elon Musk did not realize that what he was doing was a Nazi salute. I don't think it's likely because he is stupid, but I don't think he is that stupid not to be able to see the— I mean, this is a guy who comments on world events, who has made statements that have been interpreted as anti-Semitic, who talks about his obsession with the Roman Empire. Some people are saying, well, this is a Roman salute. This is a Nazi salute. Well, yeah, the Nazi salute is the Roman salute. The swastika is the Gamodian cross. Prior to World War II, the swastika was a symbol of peace. It has since been co-opted. The swastika was on fighter jets in World War I, American fighter planes. I don't know if they had jets. I think they were prop planes, but they were on America. The swastika was a symbol of peace prior to World War II, and the Nazi Party co-opted it. And now you cannot use the swastika and say, well, I'm using it in a pre-World War II context, which is essentially what— well, it's a Roman salute, not a Nazi salute—

means.

Because first of all, the Romans weren't great folks either. But second of all, it has been co-opted by the Nazis. The Romans were trying to create the First Reich. The Nazis were trying to create the Third Reich. They knew exactly what they were doing when they co-opted the Roman salute. So every single person watching that salute knew exactly what it was. So I have to think that Elon Musk knew exactly what it was and did it anyway. And the media reports it like, well, gee, that was odd. I wonder what he meant. Golly, that was— I mean, the headlines are things like, "Odd salute from Elon Musk." It's not an odd salute. It's a Nazi salute. And everybody who saw it knows it. And this is, this is the world we now live in. We have to say that black is white and down is up and day is night because Elon Musk says it is and Donald Trump says it is. And, and this is where we are. So, I mean, it's just, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, this is a stupid man making a stupid gesture, making an evil gesture. Um, it's not the same as, uh, setting up legal bribery for the president or trying to nullify the Constitution with an executive order. But it, I don't think there is anything else that happened in the last few days that so clearly symbolically sums up where we are than Elon Musk just in broad daylight, um, declaring that he is a Nazi and declaring this is fascism, because that's what it was. It's a declaration of fascism. And if he had done that at Biden's administration, the first person to scream at him and condemn him would have been Joe Biden. Uh, if he had done that at George W. Bush's inauguration, any other normal politician, Republican or Democrat, you give a Nazi salute at an inauguration and you're canceled. Uh, uh, AOC did a video, said one of the basic fundamental principles of America is we hate Nazis. And It's not one of the basic fundamental principles of America anymore. We now have to make excuses for Nazis. That's where we are.

When I saw it, I was shocked. And then I thought, well, I mean, I saw him thump his heart the first time he did it. I thought, well, as I looked into it, I thought, well, maybe he didn't. Maybe it was a stupid thing to do and he was using that inadvertently, accidentally, if you like, to show his joy, if you like. I know that sounds very naive, and in hindsight it is naive, but when I look into the nature of the man again, it's clear it was something more than just a mistake, or appears to be much more than a mistake. Max Keiser, who was the executive officer of the Jewish Council of Australia, said he believed that Musk had unambiguously, unambiguously made a Nazi salute and criticized the ADL for defending the billionaire. He said it was clear signal to his rabid white nationalists and neo-Nazi pose that he aligns with their values. Um, he also talked about his platform X. So this is the, uh, um, the executive office of the Jewish Council. He said that, uh, Musk is well known for— I didn't know this actually until I researched it today, but he's well known for promoting racist neo-Nazi content and has recently endorsed the far-right Alternative in Germany, the AfD. I did hear about that, uh, on the news. Uh, that's the German political party. And he goes on to say that we should all be very concerned that the right-hand man of the most powerful person in the world is a Nazi. The ADL continues to disgrace themselves by defending Musk's gesture while basically attacking expressions of post, post-pro-Palestinian solidarity as antisemitic. What's interesting is, and I didn't know a great deal about that side of, of Musk, who I agree with you is very stupid and idiotic, even from a business perspective. He way overpaid for, for, uh, Twitter and a lot of his Tesla, uh, operations when he gets involved begin to fail. I think he's a genius when it comes to ideas, but when it comes to running and operating a business, no chance. There's no way I would have him in charge. Here's me, uh, speaking as a non-billionaire, of course. What's interesting is, um, and, and, and, and again, I, I, I don't believe that, uh, accept that on lots of different things, Musk is intelligent, because he isn't. Um, it's interesting that with the reaction and, and people seeing that salute as, you know, they research it and see, well, yeah, this, this is a, a Nazi salute. Even the people who've looked into it and weren't quite sure at the beginning, and many of them have come to that conclusion. Uh, what are your thoughts then about the silence of Trump, who's at the moment had not commented, that I can see, on, um, Musk's, uh, Nazi salute. And the other question I have is, isn't it correct that the church historically had some relationship with the Nazi Party when the Nazi Party was in power right at the early stages? I think there's even at the time of when Adolf Hitler was getting involved, uh, with the Nazi Party, that the church church leaders met with the Nazi leaders back then. This is before the emergence of the Second World War in 1939, around from 1939 to 1945. Evidence seems to exist where the church leaders met with the Nazi Party, and of course that's before the war, and that relationship was in place at that time. But my first question is, what do you think to the silence of Trump and Musk's Nazi salute. What do you know, if anything, about the relationship? Did the church have a relationship with the Nazi Party in the past? What do you know about that?

Well, to answer your first question, again, it's a very simple answer, is that, uh, Trump doesn't care. Um, if anything, Trump is happy about it. Uh, I think you sort of have to put yourself into the kind of feral mindset the reptilian brain, where everything is, how does this affect me? How does this hurt people I don't like? How does this, uh, I think Trump is just gleeful at seeing all of the hand-wringing and the complaints because he, he, he looks at it and goes, haha, they can't do anything. This is, this is more proof that I, I win. I mean, he's won everything. It's not just that he's won the presidency. He ran for president not because he wanted to be president. He ran for president because if he didn't run for president, he'd be in jail. I mean, there's absolutely no question about that. And so now he's won and now he's untouchable. And so I'm thinking that he looks at that and it's not even— doesn't even occur to him to condemn it. And it's absolutely— I mean, this is the guy who said that there were very fine people on both sides, remember? Nazis were— the neo-Nazis were marching in Charlottesville. And so I think he's just, "Hahaha, so what if it was a Nazi salute? Nothing you can do about it," and is just relishing. Nothing brings him more joy than the suffering of his enemies. Nothing makes him happier than seeing his opponents miserable. That's how transactional he is. With regard to the church in Nazi Germany, there are pictures of my great-grandfather Heber J. Grant at some kind of confab in Germany prior to World War II where there is a huge swastika on a flag in the background. And that picture has been brandished as proof that the church was complicit with the Nazis. I think that that is a gross overstatement, uh, because I think the church very clearly, uh, just as the church now sent two apostles to the inauguration, the church then felt it necessary to interact with legitimate government of countries where that had members of the Church. And Germany had a fairly large membership of the Church in comparison to other European countries in the '30s. And that picture was taken before World War II. So, I think, yeah, the Church was trying very hard to get along with the government of Germany, which at that point had been elected legitimately, the same way we've legitimately elected fascism here. And that took a dark turn. And I don't think there is any evidence of the church being complicit with the Nazis once they start— once the war started. Once the war started, I think the church was very much on the side of the Allies. But you also have to account for the story of Helmut Huebner. Helmut Huebner was executed by the Nazis at the age of 17. And he had spent a great deal of time opposing the Nazis, and he was a Latter-day Saint. To the Church's, I think, everlasting shame, he was excommunicated from the Church. For his activity against the German government. So I think that is probably the, the best evidence that the church was kind of on the wrong side to some degree. But I don't think that the church was collaborating with the Nazi government. The church was trying to do what they're trying to do now, which is sit on the sidelines as evil takes control. And it didn't end well for the church in the '30s and the '40s. Uh, it's not going to end well for the church now.

As we come into the end of the podcast, I want to ask you for your thoughts on what might be the biggest question I'm asking you in this, uh, conversation. What, with all that's going on, and we're at the very beginning of the Trump presidency, You know, we are moving at breakneck speeds. The speed itself is frightening. The lack of attention to the, uh, poor attention to, to detail. You know, Trump doesn't like detail. I said that he, uh, is the big picture thinker. Uh, detail's not important to him. We're seeing a whole series of, of decisions that are going to impact, um, all kinds of people in different ways. What are your thoughts, Jim, on what the role of the church is, what the responsibility of the church leaders is at this time in relation to this new Trump presidency? What can it do? What should it do? What must it do to influence Trump if it can at all, to hold him to account, to bring some some of the guardrails back to help, you know, bring some of the checks and balances back. So there's a few questions there, but if I could summarize, what do you think is or should be the role of the church and the church leader, the prophet, to influence Trump for the better and to bring some of the church values and principles into the conversation to influence Trump and to also communicate to the world that the church is concerned. It has a role to play. It is the mouthpiece of God. We have a prophet on the earth and it, it's looking at the situation very seriously and taking responsibility for its claim position as the only true church upon the face of the earth. What's your thoughts on that, the role and the responsibility of the church and the leaders in regards to Trump presidency? What can and should and must it do going forward?

Well, the role of the church is not political. The role of the church is to testify of Jesus Christ and to bring people to Christ. Um, so in that regard, uh, I do not think it is the role of the church to be the political opposition to Donald Trump. Uh, I do think it is the role of the church, and I think that it has been the role of the church that the church has not stepped up to fulfill. Uh, which is to educate its membership on principles of basic fundamental human decency to the point where they can recognize the evil that has just taken office in the United States. Uh, I, I think the role— the, the— where the church, I think, has let us down with regard to Donald Trump is in its treating of Donald Trump as normal, as just another development, as just another partisan difference between right and left, Republican, Democrat, and not as a fundamental threat to not just American democracy, which I really insist is is pretty much over. I mean, we— you think he's, he's going to step down after this term? You think he's not going to run for a third term? What, just because the Constitution says he can't? Well, he's already nullifying— he's nullified one amendment to the Constitution. What's another one? He's, he's talked many times that he's going to run for a third term and he's going to make it so that running for a third term will essentially just be formative. Um, our only hope is that if he dies of natural causes, um, I mean, he's 78, he's overweight, he's got, you know, I think he's a good candidate for, for a heart attack or a stroke. But, uh, if he's barely on life support, he will continue to hold power for as long as he lives. And, uh, I think where the Church has fallen down is in not warning us that this is not acceptable. If you remember that BYU professor, he posted scriptures outside his door, Mosiah 29:26-27. Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right. But it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right. Therefore, this shall ye observe and make it your law, to do your business by the voice of the people. And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you. Yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction, even as he has hitherto visited this land. I think that verse screams Donald Trump. Screams Donald Trump. That is exactly what we have done. We have chosen iniquity. We have said, yes, this man raped women, we don't care. Yes, this man committed felonies, we don't care. Yes, this man started a riot to try to overthrow the government, and the riot left 5 people dead, we don't care. We still want this guy. We choose iniquity. And because we think that somehow that's going to help us, that's going to be good. So the, the role of the church is not to lead rallies against Donald Trump. It's to remind people of Mosiah 29:27, remind them what that means, remind them of the principles that the United States of America has thrown away. With the election of Donald Trump. And I don't see the church being willing to do that. I see the church at this, at this point in time continuing to pretend that this is normal. And I don't necessarily blame them because I think so many people, you know, so many people just thought this was just another choice, just thought this was normal. We have normalized so much evil that, you know, I think I mentioned in the last time we talked about Trump that I was in McDonald's the day after the election and a guy walked in and he looked at the menu and he wasn't joking. And he said, Donald Trump just won. Why haven't the prices come down? And he meant it because the way Trump promised that somehow— I mean, now he's saying he recognizes he can't bring prices down. He's not gonna do anything. That what he is gonna do is pass tariffs that are gonna raise prices. We're starting a trade war with your country and we're gonna drive up prices by 30, 40%. Inflation's gonna go through the roof under Donald Trump. But Donald Trump told everybody that Joe Biden was the reason why their hamburgers cost more. And so some idiot votes for Donald Trump, walks into McDonald's the next day and goes, how come my Quarter Pounder still costs so much money? I mean, it's just the— where it's not even just the church. Uh, all of our institutions have let us down because we were able to look at iniquity and still see it as a viable choice as a nation. And it's gonna be a very, very long time before we recover from that, if we ever do. And I, I look at this and I don't know that we ever do. I mean, this may be the beginning of the kinds of tribulations that can only be rectified with the return of the Savior, because we have botched it. We have botched it so badly. You know, history repeats itself first as tragedy and then as farce. I don't see this as farce. I see this as tragedy. We are repeating the mistakes of a pre-World War II Germany. We have elected a fascist. We have thrown in with fascism. We have chosen iniquity. And I think it's the church's role to, to let us understand that, understand the principles that no matter where you think the minimum wage should be, no matter what you think the highest tax bracket should be, no matter what you consider in terms of policy, It is not acceptable to choose indecency and, and, and think that's okay. Mm-hmm.

Well, Jim, I really appreciate having this conversation with you. It's a very emotive conversation. You know, these things affect our lives in, in very fundamental ways in America, Canada, uh, for sure, certainly around the world. We could talk much more on this. I'm reminded by, I think it was President Hinckley that talked about that there is safety and security in living the gospel. When I heard that, I thought, yeah, if I stick to the gospel, those, and the gospel, the gospel, not the mechanics of the gospel or the church mechanics or the operations of the church, but the principles of honesty, integrity, decency, doing the right thing, Forgiveness, repentance, owning up when we made a mistake, admitting that we are wrong, we're not always right. You know, having a level of humility, those fundamental principles that Christ possessed and many, many of the people that possessed across different religions over the, you know, lifespan of humans. And then the, to your point, the importance of learning from history. If we can't learn from the mistakes of the past and the Second World War and the First World War, if we can't learn from those atrocities, the pain and the, the destruction, destruction of people's lives, if we can't learn from that, then history will repeat itself. The difference is now is that we are, we're living in a very different time. We're living in the nuclear age. There weren't the nuclear threats back in the Second World War. Those conversations weren't happening, but they're happening now. And, um, it's, uh, it's worrying without guardrails, without those standards and those fundamental guardrails of the fundamental values and standards, uh, that we, we should live by in order to, you know, be decent human beings towards each other. Without those, then it's, it becomes a jungle and, uh, it's dog eat dog and you, you then repeat history. Um, this may have been a very difficult conversation with you, so thank you for actually, uh, uh, having this conversation. I definitely wanted to get your opinion and views on, uh, on these things. Just wanna remind our listeners that, uh, the next installment will be the third part of the survey questionnaire that the church put out. We hope to conclude that on part 3. We hope that you enjoyed this conversation. Again, we're not trying to be over-political. We are trying to highlight the distinction, the relationship between the church and politics. And we also, Jim Bennett and I agree, I think if ever, ever a time where we need help from the divine help from God and Jesus Christ and anyone else who's got the power to help us, uh, from the heavens, that time is now. So, Jim, I want to thank you for, uh, this conversation, and I want to thank all of our listeners. Until next time, we wish you the best from the, uh, team here at, uh, Inside Out. Thank you.

Thank you, Ian.

Thank you, Jim.