Theodicy

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilkes. I am Jim Bennett and I am here with the world-famous Ian Wilkes.

Well, I'm not world-famous, but I'm certainly here. And it's good to be here with you, Jim. I'm looking forward to this podcast. We've said all along, Jim, that if, you know, where the church needs to improve, we talk about that, and we want the church to improve and get better for people, to be a safer place. And we provide, hopefully, constructive criticism, and I think we do that. We do. There's certainly a lot of criticism that can be leveled against the church on some things. And we've also said that where the church is doing the right things and doing well and making good decisions and being open and transparent, we want to highlight the qualities of those church— of those elements of the church as well. So we want to make sure that we're quite balanced. And so that brought me to a topic that I've been thinking about for a long time. I think I've mentioned a few times that there's certain experiences that I've had, perspectives that I have, and continue to have over the years, which have greatly influenced my relationship with God, my relationship with the church. That's pre-resignation, prior, you know, I think the 2016, 2018, I think I resigned, or 2017. It's been a, a concern of mine, an issue of mine for a very long time. It's a universal issue that I think impacts everybody, whether you're in the church or out. At some point in your life, whether you're religious or not. Uh, this is such an important topic and it's probably, I would argue, the fourth question, uh, on, uh, after the other questions that we ask ourselves from time to time. Again, whether religious or not, is who am I? Where did I come from? Um, where am I going after this life? You know, we, this is the Man's Search for Happiness video that's been out for quite some time. And perhaps the fourth question is, is our relationship with God, and why does God allow some people to suffer more than others? And why does he seem to help others, or help some rather than other people? And so this has been something that has been on my mind for a very long time. And I've suggested for this podcast that we get into it, because I think a lot of people have a lot of questions around this. And the, the where this came from, or where this resurfaced in regards to my relationship and my crisis of faith and my navigating the issues with the church, was a conversation actually that I had. I was in my office in Calgary in 2013 or 2014, mid-crisis. I was right smack in the middle of going through a very difficult emotional, spiritual time in regards to my faith crisis. It was a very dark moment. I was in the, the Valley of Shadows, as I describe it. And it was very lonely. I hadn't shared my concerns or my faith crisis with anyone, not members of my family, no friends. I was keeping this to myself. It was a very private, very personal experience. And I felt prompted or inspired, I don't know what you want to call it, to reach out to a gentleman called Hans Mattson, who is well known. He's a former General Authority, Area Authority 70, I believe. He presided over the areas in Europe. I think he's from Sweden originally. And so he's got an incredible reputation in the UK where I'm from and across Europe for being an extraordinary, kind, loving, and a very intelligent and a very balanced individual and a great leader. I've not met Hans, I just want to be clear, but I have heard about him and I heard his reputation in the UK was being an extraordinary leader. And I have listened to his conversation with John Delane on the Mormon Podcast.. And so in my office in Calgary, I think it was 2013, 2014, and Hans will remember, actually remember, remember this time because I messaged him and I asked him if I could speak to him and get some advice on whether or not my sons should serve a mission or not. It was the time in my son's lives where they were coming up to very close to preparing and making a decision whether to serve a mission. And, and what, uh, should I do as a father and as a family? Uh, what direction, advice, or support, if any, could we offer the boys in terms of their making a decision and going on a mission? Should we support them, encourage them? Should we bring these issues that I'm seeing for myself to their attention? My concern was, do we allow them to serve a full-time mission and then for them to discover what I was discovering at that time. Again, I was halfway through my faith crisis, at the darkest point, certainly. And should we allow the boys to serve a mission? Don't tell them about the issues. Let them discover the issues themselves. The problem with that was that if they came back, or they wrote to us and said, Dad, did you hear about these issues? And, well, we heard about this from an investigator or member, or less active person, did you know about this? Did you hear about this? What are your thoughts? I, I couldn't in, in good conscience go back and, and say that no, we didn't know about them when I did. And I, and I wouldn't feel— I, I looked ahead, Jim, into the future, and I, and I, I try to foresee a conversation in the future with the boys during the missions, in, in a letter or a phone call, or post-missions. And the, the, the, the idea of them struggling with these issues and me not being honest and upfront with them before they went out, or disclosing my concerns, or at least bringing these to their attention so they can make an informed decision on whether these issues are their issues, or whether— it was such a difficult time. And do I bring this to them or not? It— I was in a real dilemma, alone, lost. I hadn't spoken to anyone, no member of my family.. And I felt prompted or inspired to reach out to Hans for his advice on that specific topic. Should, should my sons go? Should I support my sons going on a mission? Should I encourage that? And it was on the back of that, and also on the back of the Race and the Priesthood essay that came out in 2013. So it was 2013. And that was an essay that really shook me. So there was The issue about whether my boys, who are wonderful, wonderful people, should they serve a mission? Should I bring these issues to their attention or not? If I do, they might not serve. So what the heck do I do? And then secondly, can I speak to anyone that I can trust about the race and the priesthood essay that was really bothering me? So I messaged Hans and he kindly agreed to accept a phone call. So I called him from my office in Calgary, and we had a conversation, and it was extraordinary. And he advised me to be very thoughtful, very careful about, uh, encouraging our boys to go on missions. I think he said that his boys— I can't remember if he said that his boys in the end didn't or decided not to go. Trying to remember the details there. I don't think they went, but he can correct me if I'm wrong there.

But he—

the, the counsel I got was be very— talk to the boys, talk to my boys, talk to my family about the issues, and be very, very careful about encouraging them to and pushing them to go on missions without at least knowing that there are in fact real issues that will come up at some point in different situations on, you know, during our during the missions of our boys. And I got the, I got the counsel that probably it's not a good idea actually to send the boys out, or at least do some research, at least talk to them, at least, and let them make a decision. Which I did in the end. I did, I did have a conversation. There was another conversation with Hans about raising the priesthood, and then I think there was a third one about his experience. These are private conversations. I won't go into all the details, but the general conversation was I was sharing with him where I was in my faith crisis. I opened up to him on the phone call. It was a phone call, and I felt very comfortable, very trusting of him. He's a wonderful man, and I kind of opened up, made myself vulnerable, and I'm glad I did. And he had a lot of empathy. He'd gone through something very similar as I had, you know, I was going through. And He shared with me, I was explaining to him some of the issues I've got, and I said, how did you know, what was it for you that changed your perspective? And he talked about his conversation with Elder Packer. That didn't go very well for him. He had a conversation with general authorities who were not supportive of him and told him basically not to talk about these things. That's, I think that's it in a nutshell without going into too much detail. And, but one particular thing that really concerned him, which wasn't something that I'd, that concerned me, that I come across, or I had come across it rather, but I hadn't seen it from his perspective, from Hans's perspective. I'd read the talk at least once. Well, once, not more than once. And it's the, so Hans referenced this talk that was given by Thomas S. Monson in October 2013, We Never Walk Alone. And so this must have been November, I think, or December, Jim, when Hans and I had these, I think it was 2 or 3 conversations. And then Hans said, have you listened to the talk? Have you read this talk? I said, yeah, I think I have. And he said, what did you get from it? I said, that was a great talk. He said, well, have you read it? You should read it again, uh, because there's a piece in there that really, uh, uh, impacted him and affected him, and it reminded him of his other reasons why he left, or some concerns he had over the years about him navigating his faith. And I think it's an important, um, there's an important story in the talk that Hans highlighted that President Monson spends actually quite a bit of time on. Jim Bennett, he is a prophet at the time. He spent a good few minutes talking about this story that I'd like to highlight. And this was something that was brought to my attention from Hans, which raises some interesting questions. And so I just want to kind of bring it up here. And he says here, may I share— this is President Monson speaking in the— in his talk here, We Never Walk Alone. It's about halfway through. He says, may I share with you the account of our Heavenly Father, how our Heavenly Father answered the prayers and pleadings of one woman and provided her the peace and assurance she so desperately needed, needed or sought. Tiffany's difficulties, so this is Tiffany who he's talking about, began last year when she had guests at her home for Thanksgiving and then again for Christmas. Husband had been in medical school, was now in the second year of his medical residency. Because of the long work hours required of him, he was not able to help her, or Tiffany, as much as they both would have liked. And so most of that which was needed to be accomplished during the holiday season Sorry. And so most of that which needed to be accomplished during the holiday season, in addition to the care of the following children, fell to Tiffany. She was becoming overwhelmed. And then she learned that, that one who was dear to her had been diagnosed with cancer. The stress and worry began to take a heavy toll on her, and she slipped into a period of discouragement and depression. She sought medical help, and yet nothing changed. Her appetite disappeared. She began to lose weight, which her tiny frame could ill afford. She sought peace through the scriptures and prayed for deliverance. From the gloom which was overtaking her. When neither peace nor help seemed to come, she began to feel abandoned by God. Her family and friends prayed for her and tried desperately to help. They delivered her favorite foods in an attempt to keep her physically healthy, but she could take only a few bites, then would be unable to finish. On one particular trying day, a friend attempted in vain to entice her with foods which she had always loved. When nothing worked, her friend said, "There must be something that sounds good to you." Tiffany thought for a moment and said, "The only thing I could think of that sounds good is homemade bread." But there was none on hand. The following afternoon, Tiffany's doorbell rang. Her husband happened to be home and answered it. When he returned, he was carrying a loaf of homemade bread. Tiffany was astonished. When he told her it had come from a woman named Sherry, whom they barely knew. She was a friend of Tiffany's sister Nicole, who lived in Denver, Colorado. Sherry had been introduced to Tiffany and her husband briefly several months earlier when Nicole and her family were staying with Tiffany for Thanksgiving. So prison bosses go into great detail, great detail here, which he doesn't always, uh, uh, do, uh, in every talk. Sherry, who lived in Omaha, had come to Tiffany's home to visit with Nicole. Now, months later, with the delicious bread in hand, Tiffany called Sister Nicole to thank her for sending Sherry on an errand of mercy. Instead, she learned Nicole had not instigated the visit and had no knowledge of it. So just to repeat that, instead she learned Nicole had instigated— had not instigated, sorry, the visit and had no knowledge of it. The rest of the story unfolded as Nicole checked with her friend Sherry to find out what had prompted her to deliver the loaf of bread. And she learned— what she learned was an inspiration to her, to Tiffany, to Sherry, and it is an inspiration to me, says President Monson. On that particular morning of the bread delivery, Sherry had been prompted to make 2 loaves of bread instead of 1 she had planned to make. She said she felt impressed to take the second loaf with her in her car that day, although she didn't know why. After lunch at a friend's home, her 1-year-old daughter began to cry and needed to be taken home for a nap. Sherry hesitated when the unmistakable feeling came to her that she needed to deliver the extra loaf of bread to Nicole's sister Tiffany, who lived 30 minutes away on the other side of town, whom she barely knew. The details, by the way, are really important here. I think it's important to, to, uh, to read it word for word. She tried to rationalize away the thought, wanting to get her very tired daughter home and feel— and feeling sheepish about delivering a loaf of bread to people who were almost strangers. However, the impression to go to Tiffany's home was strong. She— so she heeded the prompting. When she arrived, Tiffany's husband answered the door. Sherry reminded him that she was Nicole's friend, whom he'd met briefly at Thanksgiving, handed in the loaf of bread and left. And so it happened. It's like— and thus we see in the Book of Mormon. So in the Book of Mormon, we hear about all these lessons. And then Mormon, who had preached the Book of Mormon, Usually often starts off by saying, and thus we see, and I think President Nelson's doing that here. And so it happened that the Lord sent a virtual stranger across town to deliver not just the desired homemade bread, but also a clear message of love to Tiffany. What happened today cannot be explained in any other way. She had an urgent need to feel that she wasn't alone, that God was aware of her and had not abandoned her. That bread, the very thing she wanted, was delivered to her home by someone she barely knew. Someone who had no knowledge of her need, but who listened to the prompting of the Spirit. Follow that prompting and follow that prompting. It became an obvious sign to Tiffany that Heavenly Father was aware of her needs and loved her enough to send help. He had responded to her cries for relief. And he goes on to say that, you know, dear sisters, Heavenly Father loves you, each of you. That love never changes, et cetera, et cetera. Hans shared that with me, and I still, Jim Bennett, didn't understand where he was going with it. I said, what? You know, so, so what? So what? What's wrong with that? And he said to me, why? And this is what concerned him. This is one of the issues that he'd had. Why, given this example from the Prophet Muhammad, does the Lord go to extraordinary lengths, extraordinary lengths to help this sister, which is great. And, and wonderful, and why doesn't he do it for others? Why does he seem to help, uh, some more than others? And so his impression, from my understanding of that conversation, and this has been my impression over the years as well, certainly since I've left the church, that if you are an active, faithful, tithe-paying covenant keeping member of the church, you are afforded additional protection, additional attention, additional support. You're more special. You are chosen. You are selected above and beyond other people on this planet. Now, I've been taught this over the years. I've not taught that myself. The church teaches that America and Israel are the chosen lands. You know, we know that that's an official doctrine, or has been. I'm not sure where the church is on that. We've learned that the members of the church who are in good standing are preordained, that they're faithful and that they've been chosen, elected of God, and that they're afforded special protection and special promises and additional support above and beyond. Again, this is my understanding. This is what I've— this is what I've taken from the church over the 35 years, my understanding of the church position. And that if you're not living right, or if you're not a member of the church, you're not baptized, and— or you are but you're not living right, you are not afforded those protections, those, you know, that level of support or interest or personal intervention from the Lord. And so that's, that's what Hans shared with me on the phone. And it hit me like a bolt of lightning. I hadn't— I always had a concern about that, but didn't know how to articulate it. And now we had a talk here from President Monson that seemed to suggest that, you know, this faithful sister, and I think it's wonderful that she got the support not taking that away from the story or the experience by any means. But why do some, or seemingly some, uh, get that level of attention from the Lord more than others? What about those who are facing terrible— especially right now, you know, this is given in 2013. The world has changed dramatically. Look what's happening in Ukraine. Look at those terrible events unfolding and happening on a daily basis to those families and women and children. Look what's happening in Israel now with, um, with the Palestinians and and all the other groups involved. It's a terrible, terrible situation right now. It's, you know, it's October 2023, and the world is increasingly becoming a scary place. There's so much pain and hurt and suffering out there. What's the rule, if you like, in terms of where and how the Lord intervenes? If he— and this is Hans's part— if he goes to great lengths extraordinary lengths to bring this homemade bread to the sister, which is extraordinary. It's clearly that he knows his sister extremely well on a very personal level, and the Lord knows each of us. Where is the Lord in the lives of those who are suffering, who are being murdered and killed, harmed, maimed? Where is the Lord in that? So this is a bigger question beyond, you know, just our faith. It's a global question. It's a human question in terms of deity and God. It's the very heart of our faith or the Mormon faith. It's not exclusive. This is a question, conversation that impacts everybody or most people at some point in their lives, whether they're religious or not. Why me? Where's God? Why have I been left alone? I'm reading a series of books and I'll stop talking in about 20 seconds, Jim, and let you jump in. But I've acquired reading a number of books on the Holocaust and the history of the Holocaust in Auschwitz and this extraordinary material that I'm reading about the events that unfolded. And there are different stories, different experiences where some people recall strength and receiving strength from God and faith and spirituality and making decisions to save the lives and they felt supported and lifted. And there's some incredibly faith-promoting, inspiring experiences from, uh, tragic, awful, uh, events that were happening at that time. But there are also many, many other accounts of, of equally good people who felt abandoned, felt alone, that God was not there for them, and they have lost loved ones in, in that, uh, in those terrible events. So we talk about this a lot in the church, or we talk about it to some extent in the church. This talk goes into quite a bit of detail about the lengths that the Lord goes to. And so, and I've been approached so many times as a bishop and a stake presidency about, you know, why a member who's approached me, why the Lord is not there, not listening to the prayers, etc. And it opens up so many questions why God seemingly would help some like an active Mormon, faithful Mormon compared to others. And just real quick here, I've heard a couple of stories on the mission where missionaries— I don't know how reliable this is— have, um, or a member who are wearing the garments, uh, were protected physically because they were wearing the garments. I think one was some hot water that dropped onto them and they were protected because of the garments. And then the part of the body was damaged and the other part wasn't. I think that's made up. That's a story I've heard. But the question is, do Latter-day Saints— so one of the questions, um, are they afforded special protection, more attention from God? Because we teach that the chosen select above all else and above all others. And if that's still the case, and I think it is, I think that's, um, that's worrying and, and, um, and very sad. I don't believe that for one second. So anyway, you've been very patient with me. I'll stop talking and I certainly look forward to getting your thoughts.

Oh, I have all the answers. You have raised the issue of theodicy, you know, the problem of evil, why God allows bad things to happen to good people, you know, and I mean, so I don't have all the answers, obviously, but this is something that I really wrestled with for a very long time because my problems with the church at this point, this all sort of came to a head for me in around 2011. On Valentine's Day, February 14th, 2011, my family and I went skiing at the Solitude Mountain Resort right near our home. And on the last run of the day, my daughter, my oldest daughter, took a wrong turn and ended up tumbling down the mountain about 600 yards, head over heels. She does not remember exactly what happened because she blacked out. My son followed her and Thankfully, another skier followed and he was actually a paramedic. So, and he helped get her down the mountain and she had suffered a compression fracture in a— actually, it was a— they called it a burst fracture of one of her vertebrae. She'd hit a rock or a tree or something. She didn't know. But it had burst her vertebrae out to the point where it was impinging on her spinal cord, and it left her partially paralyzed for the rest of her life. She, she walks, but she walks with forearm crutches. She's not consigned to a wheelchair, but she is partially paralyzed and will be forever, at least for the rest of her mortal life. And It was at that moment where I realized that I had been seeing the church as a protection from that sort of thing. I thought, I'm paying my tithing, I'm fulfilling my callings, I'm magnifying my callings, I'm doing everything the Lord expects me to do. Defining that as whatever the church expects me to do. And so obviously, keep the commandments, in this there is safety, in this there is peace. And it did not occur to me until we were confronted with this objectively awful situation where we had not been kept safe, where my daughter had not been kept safe, And I realized I was thinking that that's what the church is. The church is this security blanket that keeps terrible things from happening to you. And if I'm righteous enough, I'm not going to have to worry about such things happening. And to be on the other side of that equation after something terrible happens And then to talk to other members of the church who say things that they try, they're trying to be kind, they're trying to be reasonable. Oh, everything happens for a reason. Oh, sooner or later you'll realize that this is a blessing in disguise. I mean, anything to frame it in a way of just Oh, you know what? Something really awful just happened. And, you know, because in their brains that kind of fences off the idea that that could happen to them too, that could happen to one of their children or could happen to them personally. And so I came to terms with— I pulled up a quote here from C.S. Lewis, who wrote a book called A Grief Observed. Where he talked about the death of his wife and really went through a crisis of faith himself. And he said, not that I am, I think, in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about him. The conclusion I dread is not, so there's no God after all, but so this is what God's really like. Deceive yourself no longer. And, you know, that's where I was. It was— I— atheism has never made any sense to me. The idea that the entire universe just sort of fell into place by accident, that just intellectually I've never been able to wrap my brain around. But for a very long time, I wrestled with the idea of what if God is a jerk? What if there is a God and this is what he's like? He's a jerk. He plays favorites. He delivers hot, fresh, homemade bread to the members of the church he likes, and then he lets other members have their children be paralyzed for the rest of their lives. That sounds to me like he plays favorites and he's a respecter of persons. And I had to wrestle with that. And I think Everybody has to wrestle with that at some point in their life or should wrestle with that at some point in their life. And I, I believe I've come out on the other side of it with a greater appreciation for the fact that good things or bad things that happen to you are in no way indicative of God's love for you, that, that I've had to sort of establish a relationship with God, with a God who suffers when I suffer, who was also heartbroken to see my daughter injured like that, who— it's not that the God comes and fixes everything and intervenes and, and puts everything right, at least not in this life. It's a God who recognizes that we chose to come to a world that was imperfect, that was filled with injustice, that was filled with not just evil but accidents. You know, nobody did this to my daughter in an act of evil. This was a circumstance that was an accident where there was no malice involved, but still she's left to suffer., and, and I had to sort of come to terms with and reframe my appreciation for God and for the gospel. And I think I've mentioned it before, but I, I always talk about, uh, Carl Fred Broderick, who, uh, was a stake president in Los Angeles and was a, a psychology or sociology teacher professor at the University of Southern California, and he gained quite a bit of prominence. He ended up going on The Tonight Show every once in a while. I mean, he was very funny and very bright, and he wrote a book called My Parents Married on a Dare. And in that book, he included an essay called, called The Uses of Adversity. And in this essay, he described a standards night You did you have standards nights ever?

Yes.

In the UK?

Yes.

You know, I can remember some of those growing up and they were hokey and silly, but they were trying to teach youth the standards. Yeah. And this standards night was modeled after the Wizard of Oz. And the idea was you follow the yellow brick road, which is your covenants. It's the covenant path. And you reach the Emerald City, which is the temple, and then you're married in the temple, and then you live happily ever after. And that was the message. And in this essay, the Relief Society president turns to Karl Fred Broderick and says, President Broderick, do you have anything to add? And he said, yes, I do. And he said, and she has never forgiven me since. And it's— I'm trying to pull up his exact response here because Deseret Book ended up publishing just this essay long after Carlfred Broderick was dead, because this is the best answer I've ever seen to any of this. Okay, so I've just pulled it up. Um, okay, uh, said, President Broderick, is there anything you would like to add to this lovely evening? I said, yes, there is. And I don't think she has ever forgiven me. What I said was this: Girls, this has been a beautiful program. I commend the gospel with all of its auxiliaries and the temple to you, but I do not want you to believe for one minute that if you keep all the commandments and live as close to the Lord as you can and do everything right and fight off the entire priests quorum one by one and wait chastely for your missionary to return and pay your tithing and attend your meetings, accept calls from the bishop and have a temple marriage, I do not want you to believe that bad things will not happen to you. And when that happens, I do not want you to say that God was not true, or to say, they promised me in primary, they promised me when I was a Miami maid, they promised me from the pulpit that if I were very, very good, I would be blessed. But the boy I want doesn't know I exist, or the missionary I've waited for and kept chase so we both could go to the temple turned out to be a flake, or far worse things than any of the above. Sad things. Children who are sick or developmentally handicapped husbands who are not faithful, illnesses that can cripple, or violence, betrayals, hurts, deaths, losses. When Jesus Christ is not insured, when, when those things happen, do not say God is not keeping his promises to me. And this is the money quote that I just reviewed to myself over and over and over again. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not insurance against pain. It is resource in event of pain. And when that pain comes, and it will come because we came here on Earth to have pain, among other things, when it comes, rejoice that you have resource to deal with your pain. And those words have, have kept me alive. During the long, dark night of the soul, when I'm lying in a hospital bed wondering if my daughter is ever going to walk again, lying next to her, just, you know, this to me is one of the reasons why I stay in the church is because it is a resource that helps us to deal with the pain. I mean, that was when the church was best in our lives, when the church, when our ward rallied around us and remodeled our house for us and did all these things. And I've talked about that over and over again, but the church just sort of came to our rescue in a way that I wanted Jesus to come to my rescue. I know I would have much preferred that Jesus had intervened and not allowed my daughter to fall down that mountain. Or had healed her so that she wouldn't have to deal with paralysis for the rest of her life, or any of those things. But that's not what mortality is. And this was an opportunity for the church to demonstrate the best part of it. That does not mean that I am grateful that this happened. I am not. Does not mean I think it was for the best. I don't. It does not mean, oh geez, everything happens for a reason. Yeah, sometimes the reason is accidents happen. I almost used a bad word there, but I'm going to keep this a family podcast. But so many in the church see the church without even realizing it, because I didn't realize it, but they see the church as insurance against pain, as if I pay my tithing, I'm never going to lose my job. I'm never going to suffer for money. Well, that's absolutely not true. I can testify from personal experience that's not true. I mean, all of these things, all of these promises, we are not promised a pain-free life. We are not promised that our life will be less painful than anybody outside the church. We are promised that we have a resource And that resource is Jesus Christ, uh, and that resource is the body of Christ. And sometimes we have to act as the body of Christ to come to people's rescue. And I've seen firsthand how well the church does that, and I really think that's the greatest strength of the church. But I can understand why so many people feel as if the church has let them down. That they've lived this life of righteousness and then they're confronted with some terrible event and they wonder where God is and why God has abandoned them. Is that what Hans Matzen felt?

I think Hans, from the conversation I had, felt that— or couldn't understand why Lord would go to great lengths to help that sister with the homemade bread. And with all the details there that I went through, and, and, and seemingly at times doesn't appear at least to go to that same length to help others who were struggling as well. I, I, I'm really grateful for you sharing that with, with, uh, me here and certainly on this podcast. I know it's not easy to share what you've what you have just shared. I think that's one of the best descriptions I've ever heard and one of the best quotes to adequately describe the value, purpose, and perhaps meaning of the church, that it is a resource. Because that's true, that's honest, that's, that's fair, that's balanced. It's, um, it's real. And it is— I think it's hard, hard to, uh, difficult to argue against that. I can't speak for Hans, but I'm pretty sure that he would see the church in many ways as a resource. But again, I can't, I'm not speaking for him at all. I saw the church as a resource. Many see it differently. They see that it is an insurance from pain. It's not. But there's so many other questions and points that come from this. If this is a universal principle, where God intervenes or not for different reasons. My thinking on this post-membership is that, and this is my theory, my opinion, that God does intervene but in a limited way. And I'm okay with that. I didn't used to think or believe that, but I think he, he does. I don't know what rules or criteria that he follows for seemingly getting him more involved in, in people's lives than others. I just don't understand that. I do see the church as a resource, or did it. I don't have that anymore. That, that breaks my heart. That's gone now. You've got that, and, and you should hang on to that because that's really, really important. Uh, but many who've, um, left, who, who struggled in their departure of the church, who no longer have that as a resource, and that can be a very challenging time, you have to replace that for sure. The church has taught that if you live the gospel with exactness, you will be afforded protection, that you are chosen, you're elected, you're selected, that you have additional powers and authorities and levels of protection above anyone else. I used to think that and teach that, and I no longer believe that. I believe everybody's equal and has equal value to God, that he intervenes in different times, in different ways, different levels. I do not begin to understand why or how, or how those decisions are made, but I have seen his influence even since I've left the church. I still see that. I see that in my own life and I see that in the lives of others. And so I think it's important to, you know, for the church to, to teach, uh, a balance, you know, that, uh, I think it does. I think it does. It often, um, talks about that there's no guarantee that you're not going to have problems. You are going to have problems. It's how you deal with them. The church is there to help you. So I think, to be fair to the church, and it just, it does, it does okay on, on that front. But it, it opens up so many other questions and thoughts and highlights the questions around our relationship with God. You know, who is he? What's his role? How does he intervene? How much can we rely on him, et cetera, et cetera. We see so much devastation in the world and yet we see also miracles that happen on a very personal level. And I just don't understand it. I think looking back at my life in the church, I thought that I understood certain things. I think I was overconfident in having a pretty clear position on God, his role, his relationship with people, my relationship with him. I felt certain actually and a little bit arrogant, I think, I was certain that I had the answers, that we had the answers, that we're the only ones that have the answers, and that the only way to full peace and happiness in this life, and I believe this and I taught this, was to become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to serve faithfully, pay tithing, get married, temple, serve diligently, et cetera. Yes, you'd have problems, but it's the only path to God. We illustrate that in those illustrations in those examples where, you know, celestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdom, and terrestrial and out of darkness, et cetera. We're very clear about the plan of salvation. It's the bedrock of the church. It's the main strand, if you like, that runs through the tapestry of all the church doctrine and teachings is the plan of salvation. That if you're faithful and you get baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, as a man, you receive the priesthood, You have faith, you serve. It's the only path to God. There's no other way. We are the only true church upon the face of the earth. I no longer believe that, and I no longer believe that God is a, you know, I think he, I don't know if he's a respecter of persons or not. I don't believe he helps others more than others. I don't understand it. I thought I did. I said earlier that I had a I felt a level of certainty. And when I was going through my faith crisis, and certainly since that, I— there's so much I don't know now. I, I, I know that I don't know, uh, certain things, and, uh, I, I just live by hope and faith. And I, I think if you live well, you live good, and you serve, and you're kind and loving and honest with people, and you're there for your family— I'm so sorry that you— your daughter had to go through that. I really am. And I'm also sorry for all the pain that people have to suffer and go through. I I, um, just wish it wasn't like that. Um, but it raises so many questions. People have lost the faith, people's faith have strengthened. There's so many questions. I, I hope they're answered, or some of the questions are answered in the next life. In, in many ways, I, I feel that I'm walking in the dark at times, other times I'm walking in the light. You know, it's like going through a tunnel. You know, you're going through the tunnel and then And then at the end of the tunnel, yeah, you see a period of light and things look clearer and you have a little bit more confidence, a bit more faith, and things seem to be going right. And then just like life, you know, there's moments of darkness and going through the valley of the shadows, you lose a loved one or things happen, you just don't know why they happen. So I don't think the church has all the answers. I don't think the church has exclusivity on these answers or the spirit. I don't think it has a monopoly of truth, on truth. I don't think the plan of salvation in that, that we teach our way is the only way back to God. I think there are many paths up the mountain, and the best I've learned post-membership is to live right, be right. It's that Scottish saying that we come back to a couple of times, uh, that you've talked about, the history with, um, your, um, your grandfather David O'McKay, or McKay, depends whether I pronounce his last name, Mackay, in Scotland. Um, you know, wherever thou art, act well thy part. Whatever you're doing in this life— family, work, church, community, um, your personal life— do the best, be the best, live with integrity. Because in the end, that's all we are remembered for. We live, you know, we remember each other for how we made each other feel, our integrity, our honesty, a decency. And again, eventually we'll be forgotten. We're only a generation or two away from being completely forgotten. And Jim Bennett and Ian Wilkes, after a period of time, it would appear or seem that we probably either were just a footnote, and eventually that disappears. The memories of us, those people who remember us, they will go, and those people that remember them will go. Any stories of you and I, any experiences, any knowledge that we existed beyond a name or any details of this life that we now live, all that will disappear. We may have, I mean, the podcasts will live on, I suppose.

Sure.

These podcasts will live on. But, you know, the life that we live, all the things that we do each day, you know, all the little things every day that we do, we get up in the morning, we have a day of all kinds of stuff that we're doing. All that will be unknown. It'll be as though it didn't exist because there'll be no one there to remember it. The details will be gone, you know, beyond this podcast and probably a few of the things that we might have written that might be saved. All we can do is be the best, do the best, live life, you know, find a faith or find a way of being happy. And I think the answer to that is serving others. The church teaches that. It's not universal. Other churches and faiths believe that. I think these principles that make people happy and find peace are not exclusive to the church. The church doesn't have all the answers. It can claim it does.. It doesn't, in my opinion. And things happen for reasons that we, we don't understand. And as I say, I think God, in his own great wisdom, uh, intervenes in different ways at different times for different reasons. Um, now that's very vague, isn't it? We— if anyone coming onto the podcast are looking for answers, um, we— sorry that we've let you down. Uh, we, we don't have, um, We don't have all the answers. We've got our own life, our own experience, you know, we've made our own decisions. We can speak from our own experience, you know, do this, don't do that, etc. But we all have to just, uh, live by basic decent principles. And, uh, where we die, um, and I believe there's a life after death that we can be with our loved ones. I've always felt that even before I joined the church. I still believe that. Hopefully that faith that we have, that strength that we have, the ties that we have, uh, will break the bounds of death, the scriptures say, and could be with their families and live in some type of peace and happiness. I believe that. So although we have no answers, we are delivering a message of hope and that in time, answers will come. So anyway, I think it's a big question, isn't it? You know, the role of God and, Where is he? Has he abandoned me? And why do I feel alone? And it's a questioner of the ages for sure.

Well, let me, so I'm not gonna argue with any of that except to frame it a little bit different in that God intervening, I believe God intervenes in our lives. And I believe that we are the intervention, that we need to be living our lives in a way where we are capable of recognizing how to lift, how to bless, how to do what God would do if God were a mortal in our situation. And then we become the intervention, you know, and you can talk about supernatural sorts of things and being inspired to bake an extra loaf of bread or whatever. Else it is. But I think it's much simpler than that. I don't think we need a sledgehammer from heaven to know how to intervene to bless the lives of the people we love. And so I lean more and more into the fact that God intervenes by using us to intervene. And the church and the teachings that we have, uh, If they're not teaching us to do that and to do that better, then they're failing. And where they do teach us to do that, that's the true strength of the church. I pulled up here another quote that's interesting because I think you're right, we don't have all the answers. We don't have most of the answers. But I do think there are some answers and some that are unique to the church. That have been very helpful to me. The idea that we lived before we were born has helped me sort of put into perspective the idea that, okay, we're just in the middle of an eternal journey and what happened before has influenced what's happened here and this will influence what happens next. And too many people do that and say, okay, well, that means if something bad happened to you now, it's because you're being punished for something you did in the pre-mortal life. And I don't believe any of that. I don't think there— I don't think there's any possible way that we can make linkages like that that make any sense. You could only sort of take the broad view of whatever it was that happened in the pre-earth life that will eventually provide perspective on this life that we don't currently have. But the other thing that I find within the church that you don't necessarily find in just any Christian church is the idea that we are gods in embryo, the idea that we are literally spiritual children of God with the potential to become like God. And so this process of pain, of suffering, of going through mortality, wandering in the dark and having to experience all of this, this is all part of the process. Of becoming like God. And I pulled up a speech by the man who does have all the answers, even Truman G. Madsen. He gave a speech called The Highest in Us, and he was in a debate with— with looks like a Catholic, Catholic priest. And he said, why, I dared to ask, did God make us at all? There's an answer. There's an answer to that in their catechism. Basically, it is that God did, did so for his own pleasure and by his inscrutable will. Sometimes it is suggested that he did so that he might have creatures to honor and worship him, which, if we are stark in response, is not the most unselfish motive one could conceive. Sometimes it is said that he did so for our happiness, but because of the creeds, it is impossible to say that God needed to do so, for God in their view is beyond need. And then the bold question I put was, you hold, don't you, that God has and had all power, all knowledge, all anticipatory wisdom, and that he knew therefore exactly what he was about and could have done otherwise? Yes, they allowed, he could. Why then, since God could have created co-creators, did he choose to make us creatures? Why did God choose to make us his everlasting inferiors? At that point, one of them said, God's very nature forbids that he should have peers. I replied, that's interesting. For us, God's very nature requires that he should have peers. Which God is more worthy of our love? And that's always been interesting to me, the idea that God has sent us here not not to make us inferiors or not to punish us or not any of that, but because he's trying to have us be his peers. He's trying to shape us into the kind of being that he is. And that is a teaching in the church that sustains me and enriches me and gives me, I think, a better perspective than I would have had if I had not been raised with that sort of teaching. And I'm a little frustrated that we were deemphasizing those kinds of things in our theology. We're trying very hard to make our theology look a whole lot like other churches, and the weird stuff and the hard edges and all of that stuff are— we're downplaying all of that. Uh, I find strength in embracing it. I find strength in taking those kinds of ideas. I mean, you can, you can argue that there are plenty of people outside the church that believe that, and that's true too. But there are teachings in this church that are not common among Christians that I take great solace from. And, but I also recognize that God loves all of his children. And he wants them all to be peers. He doesn't just want the 0.2% of his children that have joined a specific church to be his peers. I firmly believe that however this works, whatever happened before this life and whatever happened after this life, uh, is going to happen to fulfill the purposes of God. And we teach that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man or of humanity. And I believe that that is his work and his glory, and I don't think anyone's gonna get left out in the process. And so that may make me a bit of a heretic in Bruce R. McConkie's eyes at least, but that's kind of where I am.

So— I appreciate that. And that, all those comments are really valuable, really important. That last message that all are equal and have equal opportunity to return to God and to live a life of peace and happiness. And it's not exclusive, you know, you don't have to become a Mormon essentially to experience that, you know, in the now or even in the eternities. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. It brings up a lot of emotional feelings and thoughts and experiences from your, your life and your, your perspective, certainly mine. And I'm sure for many others as well. So, you know, thank you for, you know, having this conversation with me on such an important topic.

Thank you. Let that be the last word. And for those of you listening, please make sure to subscribe to our podcast. Until next time, thank you, and we'll see you on Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.