Two Years of Inside Out

Hello to all of you out there in podcast land. This is the latest episode of Inside Out. I'm your co-host, Ian Wilkes. As always, I'm here with the most Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, Ian. How are you, sir?

I'm doing really well. I described you as Mr.

Marvelous. As you should.

As I should. You're like a, like in the Marvel MCU. Who would you be if you was a Marvel superhero or even a villain?

Oh, well, I think I would be a villain. I think it'd be more fun to be a villain.

Can you do a villain laugh?

Bahahaha!

Now that, I'm telling you guys, I can't compete with that. That's, that's the most scariest laugh. I've got goose pimples right now. I'm scared.

Nice.

I think you'd make a good Doctor Doom.

Well, I'd be happy to take Robert Downey Jr.'s job. He's doing the Doctor Doom coming up, so.

I think, I think you do really well. You do really well. Anyway, let's get into the, the podcast. So, this is another exciting podcast for all of our listeners. And it's something that I've been giving this a lot of thought to, and you have as well. To our listeners, how long has Inside Out been around? How many podcasts have we done? How's it going? Have you enjoyed the episodes that we've been doing? Do you have any favorites, any podcasts that are quite popular with you or that resonate with you? Well, this is the podcast today that we're going to discuss that because we're going to review the podcast that we've done. And for our listeners, you may be surprised to learn that we have been in podcast business for over 2 years, and I can't believe where the time's gone. The first podcast we did was on April 17th. And it was— we started off on a very interesting subject topic that didn't anticipate or expect we'd get into that, but it was titled Problematic Scriptures. Can you remember that, Jim Bennett?

I remember it very well. We focused particularly on the scripture that talks about— it's at the end of the Book of Mormon— that talks about how when a woman has been assaulted, she has been deprived of her chastity and virtue. And pointed out that that is not something we teach anymore and talked about the problem with the fact that we don't seem to have a way to disavow that because it's still there in our scriptures.

That's exactly right. And so your memory is amazing. I remember that podcast too. So to our listeners, we're going— this podcast is going to review the podcast that we've done today. And we're going to discuss some of the more memorable podcasts that we think are memorable from our perspective. And we welcome and invite our listeners' input and feedback into any comments they have on any of the podcasts that we've done. Is there one that you particularly enjoy, one that's helped you the most? Your feedback is really important to us because we want to improve the podcast experience, improve the quality, make sure that we're talking about things and and stuff and topics that are really helpful. Our whole goal is to help people. This podcast, you know, when I thought about creating this podcast and who I would partner with and made a very good choice in partnering with Jim Bennett, of course, when I was thinking of putting this together. And the goal was to help people. And in the process of doing that, it certainly helped me enormously. And I think it's probably helped you a lot as well, Jim.

It has. You know, I mean, this has been really one of the great joys of my life, and I very much appreciate the fact that you reached out to me for this. You know, in preparation for this episode, I pulled up our list of podcasts, and, you know, we don't do any advertising beyond I post a link on my personal Facebook page. I post the link on my Twitter page, which is now private because I'm tired of being harassed by desnats and everything else on Twitter. That's just a nightmare. And I post the link on my Blue Sky page. And we typically, I have the stats in front of me, we typically range between 900 1,000 to 1,500 downloads per episode. And I think that's really an impressive sort of thing. I mean, the numbers climb as time goes on because apparently people will listen to the most recent episode and then they'll go back and start listening to previous episodes. And so the numbers that are highest are some of the earliest numbers and are actually the highest numbered episode is that very first episode. We have 1,529 people who have listened to that Problematic Scriptures episode. And the episodes that tend to be popular are the ones where we get guests. The Hans Mattson episode, for instance, we interviewed Hans Mattson, who had— General Authority, or at least an Area Authority, who had left the church. He has 1,519 downloads. And, you know, and our conversation with Nemo the Mormon has 1,473 downloads. So this isn't, I think, going to set the podcasting world on fire, but it's also, I think, rather significant given the fact that we really don't aggressively market this podcast. The only, the only way people find out about us is through word of mouth. And we have a fairly consistent and fairly loyal audience and we get feedback from them that I think is really positive. So I just thought that might be interesting to lay out as we begin.

I really appreciate that. And our listeners will appreciate that information as well. We don't make any money of this. Of course, we don't ask for donations. We do it because we enjoy it. We learn a lot from it. We want to help people. And, um, It comes from a lot of, uh, something from my perspective, uh, where I've listened to other podcasts, you know, like Mormon Stories, Radio Free Mormon, and other podcasts, uh, where I've, um, gained a lot of, uh, knowledge or understanding, uh, which has helped me through my own experience, where it was quite painful for me. And so there's people out there and guests that I've listened to on other podcasts that I found extremely, uh, helpful and supportive. And I, you know, I just wanted to share my own experience and try to help people. That's all it was. In the whole process of doing this, I feel for me, myself personally, it's been strengthening and, and it helped me rehabilitate in some of my emotions. And it's helped me. It's difficult sometimes to talk about feelings. You know, quite a private person. That might sound strange doing a podcast on private, but it's difficult often to talk about private and emotional and personal experiences. But I think there's, um, I've learned in this podcast, Jim, actually, I think mostly through this podcast, these conversations, and I'm grateful to you, that there is actually strength in vulnerability, that it's okay to be vulnerable. Yeah, there are people out there that might, you know, say things that are hurtful from time to time, and you're going to get that in podcast land. But I think for the most part, the response we've had from our listeners and others who supported us has been pretty favorable. Would you agree?

No, I absolutely would agree. And the thing, I mean, you talk about the fact that this has really been a benefit to your life. I mean, one of the things that I think is just so much fun is getting these perspectives, getting your perspective on all of these, because I think you have a fascinating perspective. I think your background is just so unique. I mean, this began, we actually started recording podcasts with you, just, we just sat down for hours and talked about your story. We broke that into several different episodes, but that was, that was fascinating to me to be able to get a better sense of your faith journey and what's led you to where you are. And, and I learned so much from every single person we talked to, even the ones that's, that are somewhat frustrating. I mean, there was, there was the one episode where I actually ended up walking out of the conversation because it wasn't productive or wasn't going anywhere. But even that was helpful in the sense that I think that guest represented a large block of people still in the church who think in ways that I think are really kind of counterproductive. But it's just very helpful to be able to get all those perspectives. And I think you're right. I don't think there's another podcast out there that does that in the same way.

So yeah, I agree. Two thoughts as I'm listening to you, and I want to get into some of the specific podcasts and get a summary, if you like, of some of the— well, I find them all interesting, so it's difficult to set one apart from the other because they're all quite distinct and unique in their own ways. But two thoughts come to mind. To your point about our background, we've got this church, this organization that you and I I used to belong to, you belong to it currently right now. I still feel it's very much a part of my life, of course. We belong to this organization that's pretty consistent generally, you know, in general terms across the world, similar structures, organizations within the church. But your background is very, it couldn't be more different than mine. You grew up the church, you know, your father was a US senator, um, your mother and your family history is deeply, uh, entrenched into the church history. Uh, your grandfather on your mother's side, or grandfather's David O. McKay. On your father's side, Heber J. Grant, I believe. You've got this deep ancestral heritage that is completely opposite to me. I have no connections, as far as I know, with the Mormon Church before I joined the church at 16. You went on a mission, you've served in the church, you're in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. You are Mormon through and through. If they cut you in half, it would be Mormon written everywhere, right? Me, I'm very different. I'm a Brit. We come from different cultures. You're American. I'm a Brit. Again, very different cultures. I come from working class. I don't think you're working class. And so again, very different in terms of social history, growing up, et cetera. Very different there. You know, you know what the council houses are like in the UK. You've first, you've knocked on those doors. Think of the roughest council house, and that's where I come from. So very, very different background. Again, different experiences in the church. You know, I've served in different callings than you have. You've got a different perspective. So I think that one of the unique distinctions is that with the podcast is that our backgrounds and our perspectives are very different. And so we see things, we see this this, the church, and we see it from different angles and we converge on certain things, but we're able to look at the situation from different angles. And of course, with our, the second point where we, I want to say is the guests, we've had just amazing guests come on. And our goal there is to help them feel comfortable and not to talk about stuff that they don't want to talk about or to ask a load of questions. And that's why I've not been on some of the other podcasts, Jim, because I find some of them do ask a load of questions because they have an agenda. Many of them don't, some of them do, and I'm not comfortable asking loaded questions. I want the conversation to be natural for people to feel comfortable, and I think when they do and they can, they can open up and they feel they're not going to get tricked or trapped into something, what happens then is that these gems are released and they share them, and that's where we learn from people's experiences. We listen to them. They've gone through often very difficult, difficult experiences, but in sharing those experiences, it strengthens us and gives us an insight, right, to help us navigate our issues. And I found, by the way, at times, often, I forget I'm on a podcast. And I find that as I'm listening to our guests, I'll listen to you, it's personal for me. I'm listening, I'm learning as though I'm a listener. So although I'm a host, I sometimes fall into that situation where I'm, I become the listener, and that's good. It's good for us to learn and listen to our guests and to learn to each other. There's that two hats that we wear. You know, we host this podcast, which we enjoy. We do it because we're enjoying it. I don't think we're making many millions on this. And we're doing it to help people. And we're trying to, we're trying to be a service. And we, hopefully, I think we're better people for it as well. I've learned so much. So, so there's some of my, you know, thoughts and comments in regards to getting, before we get into some of the specific podcasts. Anything you want to add to that before we get into some, each other's thoughts and comments on specific podcasts?

No, I think that kind of covers it. I'm very interested to hear which podcasts have been most memorable to you.

Oh boy, that's a tough one. They've all been pretty extraordinary. You know, we started out with Problematic Scriptures, you know, talk about unity in the church there. And, uh, but I think, um, you know, the one that we did, Where You Are Enough, I think that really stands out as amongst others because, you know, the members— we've said, we've said repeatedly, the greatest strength of the church is its members. They're extraordinary people, aren't they, really? They give all that time, all that effort, all that commitment. The church demands a lot, but the members deliver a lot, don't they? And the challenge I think many of the members experience is they feel inadequate. They're not getting answers to prayers. They feel guilty. They're trying to live this life of, a life as close to living like Christ lived. There's a huge demand placed upon them personally, emotionally, spiritually, and often they feel inadequate, and I can relate to this. And that podcast we did, and you did a fantastic job actually sharing experiences about that members are actually good enough, that Christ loves them. We're not perfect. We do our best. And I think you talked about, we say by grace after all we can do. I remember you. I remember that. I remember listening to that. So that, that's one of many podcasts that stands out to me. How about you?

You know, I don't want to give you too big a head, but I very much have enjoyed the podcast where you have told your story. And one of the things that really stands out beyond those initial podcasts where you talked about your conversion as well as your departure from the church, I remember when you came back after your, your, I'm not sure how to describe it. It wasn't a heart attack, but it was a, it was a medical scare. And you came back and described your essentially near-death experience. And you were so personal in terms of doing that. And it was just so fascinating to me. I, I'm, I, I'm already fascinated by near-death experiences. And to hear somebody I know, uh, that, uh, that, that has had one of these experiences and to hear somebody who I greatly respect, uh, and to get your perspective on that, that, that has lingered with me and that has been very helpful. And I think one of the reasons why also that stands out is that very often when people leave the church and they go and talk about it in podcasts, they're nothing but critical. And they are also essentially— they're essentially atheists for the most part. I mean, there are some exceptions. And I know I've talked to, for instance, I've been on a lot of these podcasts. I've talked to John Delenn, and John Delenn insists that he does not consider himself an atheist, and I don't think he is an atheist. But the way a lot of these podcasts work, the way a lot of them are structured, is the church is just such a— the church is a cult, the church is destructive, the church is nothing but awful, and once you leave, you just have to drop all religion altogether. And your perspective is not that at all. I don't think I've told you this, but somebody, when I posted the last episode, somebody on Blue Sky said, "Hey, I heard Ian refer to this as our church." He says, "Has his perspective changed?" In other words, you know, "Are you coming back to church?" And I said, "No, I don't think anything's changed." But I think Ian feels very close to the church. And he says, "Well, I just, I wonder if I've just missed that," when he was responding to that. And so I just think it's just so refreshing that the fact that you no longer feel at home in the church, but you don't feel a need to attack or to tear down and that you also have not abandoned faith and abandoned a belief in God. The other episode that stands out is the one where you told the story of your brother's passing and how at the moment of his passing there was just this very clear manifestation, spiritual manifestation, that he had gone on to something more, to something better. And that there is very much a life beyond this mortal experience. And I think that is a perspective that you have that is altogether unique, particularly in the ex-Mormon space, because I have a lot of conversations with people who have left the church, and none of them, I think, can hold a candle to Ian Wilkes in terms of your, uh, your commitment to the spiritual, your commitment to God, and your commitment to, uh, living that kind of life authentically. And how if the church does something good, if the church has been a benefit or a blessing to your life or to someone else's, you are the first to acknowledge it. I've had many people say to me You know, if you were to listen to this podcast and not know, Jim Bennett, that you were the one on the inside and Ian was the one on the outside, it might be hard to tell which was which, because sometimes I'm more critical than maybe some members would be. But, but your perspective, it's— it makes it very easy for me and I think for listeners to trust you because we, we can always know that you're not going to sugarcoat anything, which means that also when you offer praise or when you say something positive, you're not just blowing smoke. It's coming from a real place and it's coming from a place of authenticity and honesty. And so those episodes stand out to me. And so I, I'm not trying to flatter you too much, but Right. But I just, I think that that's a perspective that you just don't hear either from in or out the church. I think your perspective is so unique that there's a great deal of value from it. And I never, I never stop learning from it.

Well, I'm really grateful for that, to hear that. Those episodes are difficult to talk about. I find it difficult to talk about my feelings. People who do, by the way, you know, open up. Um, you know, people like Chelsea Goodrich who came on, um, she came on twice and we've had lots of people come on and openly talk about the struggles and vulnerability. I don't know how they do it. Their courage, the strength, I just have so much respect for them and they're so brave. And so those episodes for me were difficult and, um, you know, I find it difficult. It's not an easy, easy thing to talk about those things. In front of me right now as we speak, by the way, as I was listening to you, I have a medical wristband that I have on my desk right in front of me, and I see it all the time. It's dated 24th of May, 2024. So today's the 23rd. Tomorrow, this time tomorrow last year, I was in hospital for a serious embolism that almost took my life. I shared that experience. I shared my, I think, near-death experience and tried to be as accurate as I could on that. I describe it as more of a glimpse into the next life, limited, but it was quite profound., for me, and I think about that often, a lot actually. Um, I'm still on medication, so I, I get reminded of, of that incident that happened, you know, almost a year ago to the day. And then the experience with Paul, my brother. I had a terrible relationship with Paul. It was awful. We really didn't have a relationship, Paul and I, my brother. And, um, felt used. Nothing really good came from that, really. I can't think of any or very many positive things, um, in that relationship over those years. And yet his passing away and my communication with him, even though he couldn't speak, the communication spiritually was so real, like you and I are talking, so profound, so extraordinary, uh, from someone that I had no respect with actually for, for at all. Uh, you know, in a family way, you're supposed to be close and we weren't. Um, and felt used and only called me when he wanted something. And then to have that experience and for him to be part of that and facilitate that and for him to contribute in his way on the other side like that, from someone like that I had no respect for, is just blows me away. I, I cannot fathom how an experience like that would come from someone like that, even though it was my, it was my brother. So that experience was quite profound and changed my perspective of my life. And the other point is, I don't want— Jim, I don't want the church to disappear. I don't. I criticize the church strongly at times, as you know. I can be a very strong critic, but I don't want the church to disappear. I don't want to destroy the church. I want it to improve and get better and be more inclusive. I think the church, I've said repeatedly, when it's doing great and being its best. There's no organization on this planet like that. Look at what the members do, and you and I, you're part of that. I've been a part of that. It's extraordinary. There really is no organization like it. And so you and I share this common hope, goal, objective of wanting the church to get better, improve, deal with the issues, deal with it deal with issues transparently, openly, be accountable. Let's be honest about things. Let's say we screwed up when we did. Hey, we made a mistake. We're not perfect. You talk often about infallibility. And I think that is, I think that's one of the key threads, Jim, that's run through the entire podcast series. We keep coming back to a common thread. One of the common threads for sure is this thing about infallibility. And so if the leaders could accept responsibility for mistakes and say, hey, we made a mistake there, we got it wrong, we apologize, we'll do better. I think they would generate so much more respect. And so that infallibility, it runs through the entire tapestry, if you like, of these podcasts. We come back to that quite frequently. And that's a point, an issue that you feel very strongly about. And I think we could understand that better. If the church could understand that better and respond to it appropriately, I think it would be a better organization because you've talked about infallibility often.

No, you're right. I mean, I keep coming back to the idea that the false doctrine of prophetic infallibility is the biggest problem facing the church. I mean, you can go through and talk about specific symptoms of that problem. Yeah, you know, the lingering effects of racism in church policy. It would be so much easier for— I mean, just taking that as an example, and there are plenty of others that we could take, But you take that as an example, and we would be so much farther down the road if we would be willing to say, hey, we got this wrong. This was a mistake. This was the result of racism that was perpetuated over far longer a period of time than it should have been. And We accept responsibility for it and we need to learn from it. I think that would sting. I think it would be difficult, but long term it would build and strengthen faith because I think nothing builds trust more than vulnerability. You can't trust somebody who isn't willing to tell you the truth? Is it willing to be vulnerable? Is it willing to admit their mistakes? And it's very hard to trust an institution that refuses to be vulnerable and refuses to admit its mistakes. You know, it's always been interesting to me too that when you talk to church leaders, and you and I have both had opportunities that I think a lot of members of the church have not had, to talk to people in high ecclesiastical office. I've had conversations with members of the First Presidency. I've had conversations with apostles. I've had conversations with a number of, of Seventies and other church leaders. And when you talk to them one-on-one, there is a humility there, and there's a willingness to admit to error and a willingness to concede all of that. But when they get out in public, I think there's, there's a real, no, I think part of it is that nobody wants to go first. Nobody wants to stick their neck out. And every time they do, I mean, there have been a few times we keep coming back to that one time when President Uchtdorf said there have been times when leaders and members have simply made mistakes.

Yep.

And it wasn't long after that that he was essentially demoted, that he was removed from the First Presidency. And I mean, I'm not trying to be conspiratorial because I think that there are plausible reasons to have him replaced by President Oaks, particularly since President Oaks is next in line to be president of the Church. But Russell Nelson was never in the First Presidency prior to being president of the Church. So that's not mandatory. I think there is a— particularly with this administration, with President Nelson, President Nelson has leaned into the role of a prophet, seer, and revelator. In a way that his immediate predecessors did not. President Hinckley, for instance, was very uncomfortable when people would talk about him as a prophet. I remember he was on Larry King, and this was a shelf breaker for a guy I had talked to when he was on Larry King, and Larry King says, "Well, are you a prophet?" And he kind of hemmed and hawed and said, "Well, I am sustained as such." And this guy I was talking to is like, "Well, why can't he just come out and say, 'I'm a prophet?'" And I think part of it is that President Hinckley recognizes that people have expectations of what a prophet is or what a prophet should be. And I think, again, that all comes back to this whole idea of infallibility. People expect a prophet to be infallible. They expect a prophet to have frequent, or at least occasional, one-on-one personal physical encounters with Jesus Christ or with our Heavenly Father. And I don't think these prophets do that, and they are hesitant to admit that. They don't want people to realize that. But President Nelson very much embraces without any hesitancy that title of prophet, seer, and revelator. And he says, "Do you know what a prophet is? He speaks for God," and very clearly embraces that. And I think there are some real advantages to that because I think we've seen some major changes in the church that have been very positive. And I think there are some disadvantages and some significant disadvantages to that because it extends the false doctrine of infallibility and makes it harder and harder and harder to correct mistakes, correct errors. And so what do you do when you can't apologize or correct? Well, you just ignore them. You just sort of let them fade away. And that doesn't work. I don't know if it ever worked, but it certainly doesn't work in the age of the internet, in the information age, when anybody can go back and pull up the statements that were made before that we no longer believe. The example of that, and we did an episode on this that was— I was very embarrassing for me when we talked about Boyd K. Packer's little factory and that whole talk. And that was handed to me as a pamphlet It wasn't just a conference talk. It was something that was given to every young man in the church during a certain time frame. And the whole idea of punishing people who engage in masturbation, denying them the opportunity to go on missions, denying them the opportunity to go to the temple, We don't do that anymore. We don't deny people anything as a result of masturbation. We don't say masturbation is good or it's healthy or it's wonderful, but we just quietly have ignored the previous teaching. And in fact, we no longer publish that pamphlet, and the talk from which that pamphlet was taken is no longer on the church's website. It's as if Boyd K. Packer sat out the 1976 October General Conference where he gave that talk. Uh, I mean, that's better than continuing and perpetuating damaging teachings, but how much better would it be if we said, we got this one wrong, we made a mistake here, uh, we now have a better understanding of this issue This is not nearly as significant as we thought it was back then, and we are moving forward and we apologize for what we have done in the past. I mean, do you think the church can do— why do you think the church won't do that from your perspective?

Yeah, I've wrestled with that question for a long time. I I think it's fear, insecurity, reaction from members, reaction from public, reaction from other institutions, organizations that it's teamed or partnered with, etc. I remember when I was interviewed by Elder Oaks, Jim Bennett, and I've talked about this in some of the podcasts, him and I and Elder Cook were in the room for about 15 minutes. We had a very good conversation, and the first question he asked me was, is there anything in my background that could come to light that would damage the reputation of the church, the name of the church? And I said no. And so that was his first question. And we had another part of the conversation that I thought went, went quite well. But I, it was clear that the priority of the leaders is to protect the institution, protect the brand. And so, you know, it, it, you know, it's painted itself into this corner of being the only true and living church upon the face of the earth. And I've made frequent reference to that. They don't talk about that so much now. They don't, they don't stand up anymore and say we're the only true church. I can't remember that when the last time they did that. It's still there in the scriptures, Section 130 in the Doctrine and Covenants. You can still find it in the lessons that this is the only true church and the only way to get to God is to potentially become a Mormon, go to the temple, be sealed, pay a tithe, and this is the only way. They don't say it like that, but they still believe and live that. And so they've painted themselves into this corner there is a, you know, perception or a, a position, a mindset that they support through lessons, talks, materials, et cetera, to support the notion in the members' minds that the prophets are prophetic and don't make mistakes and the prophet will never lead you astray. You can trust and rely on the prophets, et cetera. And by the way, the only reliable source of Um, truth and honesty and, uh, doctrine of salvation is through the church sources. Don't go to the internet, just look at the church material. And so it, it moves its members and guides its members and, um, wraps its members around these teachings, these notions that the members only need to look at the church and it, the church is the primary source of all information, all information, spiritual, emotional, physical, to some extent, uh, economical, financial, uh, et cetera. That the only organization that members really need to look to, to achieve complete and full salvation, uh, to achieve peace and happiness in this life. And peace and happiness in the next life. And no other organization can provide what the church can provide. And so that's its position, that's its stance, and that's what it wants the members to think and believe. That was its goal— complete reliance on the church in every, every area. The church, as you know, it directs, instructs, and influences and shapes members' lives on every level, from what you wear to what you think, how you feel. Um, how you serve, your tithing. There's a— it controls much of the members' lives. The, you know, a dedicated member is completely committed, immersed in the church every day. It's a, it's a lifestyle from you wake up, you pray, right through to nighttime when you're praying. Your whole life, if you're living, um, as committed as you should be, is dedicated to the church. So the church owns— I've even heard the term church broke, where members— and I think I was at some point where I was living with exactness or trying to, and I felt what President Banks said as a mission president. Remember what he said when he came into the mission? He said that when you— the church demands a lot, and when you give everything to the church, eventually your life is not your own. He said that. I remember him. Your life is no longer your own life. I've felt that. I've had that experience. And so the church controls all of that and claims to be the only true church and is infallible, won't lead you astray. And the truth is quite opposite. Uh, the church has lied about stuff. It has. It's concealed stuff. It's misdirected. It's hid things., and, um, I'm reminded of that, uh, lesson, um, I think it's lesson 31 in that All Lesson Handbook. It's titled The Holy Ghost, the Importance of the Holy Ghost. It says here, being honest is necessary if we are to live the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we know the truth but do not live it, we are dishonest with ourselves and with God. To be honest with ourselves and the Lord, we must keep the covenants we made. We must be honest to have the Holy Ghost as our companion. If you look at the role of the Holy Ghost according to the church, it's a testifier of truth. It will reveal truth of all things. It will strengthen your testimony, be a guide and a comfort. But you have to be honest, otherwise the Holy Ghost won't apply. So the question I have is, you know, and we've talked about this on the podcast, has the church lied? Has it been dishonest? Elder Bower said we are— he helped me on this one, but he He said, we are as honest as we know how to be. Is that right? Am I— did I misquote him that?

Yeah, he said something along those lines. He, he is— he was trying to point out that as far as he's concerned, the church has never withheld information or has never hidden any information. And I think a lot of people have taken issue with that statement.

Um, and, and so as I, you know, you know, that's a long answer to your question, but as I look at, again, going back to the podcast here, look at the conversation we have with Roy and, uh, Emma Han, who talked about, uh, these things, their experience with the church not being honest, right? And not being inclusive and, and being, um, uh, intimidating actually, I think, to Roy and Emma. We've, we had that meeting with, um, amazing conversation with Hans Mattson. Who talked a lot about his experience and the revelatory process and the negative experience he had with Elder Packer. One of my favorites is the conversation we had with Anthony Miller. Anthony's— oh yeah, become a friend. I have enormous respect for that man. His experience is very similar to mine. He read the Race and the Priesthood essays. He read all the essays. Is a very intelligent, mindful and thoughtful individual. And I used to read his comments a lot more than anyone else, actually. And I, if he'd have had a podcast, I'd have signed up immediately. Anthony is one of the most amazing people out there. And I found his experience just incredibly helpful. And so does anyone particular stand out? It's a tough one because they're all Um, you know, they're all significant. I think one of them, uh, for me that does stand out to me, um, is the conversation we had, uh, that you shared with us about Bob Bennett's final fireside. And I listened to you and I got an insight as to how much love and respect you had for your father and how difficult that was when he passed away and how influential he was, in your life and how you think about him often. So there are times where, many times where you share your personal experiences in a very courageous, very brave way, in quite remarkable way. And myself, and I'm sure many others, and, and that podcast is an example of how you've opened up and allowed yourself to be vulnerable and share your, you know, perspectives in regards to your relationship with your dad. Um, so yeah, it's hard to pick one, but there's a, there are a few of the highlights.

Well, you know, it's interesting that you would note that one because one of the things that, you know, I talk about how your perspective is so different from so many people out there. Uh, I don't believe I would be an active member of the church. If it were not for my father. And if it were not for the really sort of unique perspective that I've had growing up, that I've had in the church growing up. Because I am, I, I knew, learned Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I don't know how, I don't ever remember not knowing Joseph Smith was a polygamist. If that makes sense. I mean, most of these issues are issues that were discussed in my family, discussed vigorously, discussed from all different angles. And, you know, I had my version of a faith crisis when I read The Godmakers at the age of 18. And all that did was launch discussions. In my family, and they weren't fraught discussions. They weren't, "Oh, Jim, how dare you read this anti-Material?" and "Oh no!" It was, "Oh, now that's interesting. Let's talk about that." And, you know, that's how we discuss things like the Kinderhook plates and multiple accounts of the First Vision and polygamy and race in the priesthood and on and on and on and on to the point where I think I wish that everybody had resources like that. I remember one conversation. I just, this just came to mind. I remember one conversation and I don't know what the subject was, but I remember asking my father, what do people do? Who don't have a dad who knows this stuff? His response was, oh, everybody in the church has access to people who know these kinds of things. And he just sort of said it dismissively, like, oh, it's not a big deal. This is common. Everybody, everybody can go find somebody to talk to about difficult issues. And I think he truly believed that. And I think time has demonstrated that he was wrong. That is just absolutely not true. Not everybody has those kind of resources. And so many people will encounter some troubling aspect of church history or church doctrine and just have nowhere to turn and just have no— I mean, that's kind of how I felt when I read The Godmakers. My first reaction was not Oh, I need to leave the church. In fact, I didn't want to leave the church. It was, oh, how can I stay in the church knowing all these things? And the reaction most people have when they stumble on something that is just so far out of bounds from what they believed and is clearly something that the church has done wrong, or the church has done that's problematic, when they stumble on it, they feel stupid. They feel like a chump. They feel like, oh, jeesh, you know, how is it that I live my life in this church and didn't know all of these things? And they're desperate, desperate to find a way to stay. They're not— I mean, this is the characterization of lazy learners, and I'm not trying to take a potshot at President Nelson because he's the one who used that phrase, but because he's not alone. I mean, the blanket characterization of people who leave the Church is that they're lazy, that they're faithless, that they want an excuse to sin, And, you know, it's, oh, I'm in the church, but I really want to be sleeping around and be taking all kinds of drugs and be getting drunk. And, and so I, I'm going to leave because I want to go do all those things. I mean, newsflash, you can do all those things and still be in the church. And a lot of people still are in the church and a lot of people struggle with those kinds of things. But, uh, If that's the case, that people who leave, it may very well be the case that there are some people who leave because they are lazy or because they want to sin. I have yet to meet such a person. I have yet to meet anyone who was fully engaged with the church and then leaves, who does not leave after a period of excruciating soul-searching and excruciating struggle. Far from being lazy, these are people that double down on research about church history, who are frantic to find answers, uh, and, and are looking for some way to reconcile their experience in the church and their spiritual experiences in church. See, that's the thing, is that you encounter these kinds of historical or doctrinal problems, and you go, hey, I've encountered God in this church. I have had undeniable spiritual experiences that testify to the hand of the Lord in my life and in this church. And yet now all of a sudden, How do I reconcile this with this thing that I can't understand or that I can't get past? Every single person is looking for a way to stay. I mean, that's why I wrote my CES letter reply. It was, okay, here's how I did it. It wasn't, here are all the answers that are definitive and that will put all your doubts to rest. It's, here's the approach I took., and your mileage may vary. You may, your mileage will vary, but that's what I think this podcast, um, that's where I think this podcast is so valuable, at least to me, but it's also value. People have found value in it because there, this is a podcast I think, and correct me if I'm wrong. But the way I see this, I remember our interview with Michelle Brady Stone, who is— have you followed all the things that are happening with her right now?

Uh, some of it, yes.

I mean, she's been told to take down all of her podcasts.

She has.

She's canceled her podcast and she's— and I mean, she has not come out and said explicitly that she's been told to do this, but it's— It's very, very clear that she has been asked to make the decision, either continue with your podcast or, um, and leave the church, or if you want to stay in the church, step away from it and step away from all of that kind of thing. And, and those are the kinds of decisions that I just think are really painful and really difficult. But she introduced me to a phrase that I have used many, many times since, and she, she talks about people on the borders, people on the borders of the church, people in the borderlands. And these are people who are either on the edge of the inside. I'm thinking of Christian Kimball's book, Living at the Edge of the Inside, where he describes his experience when he was a bishop something like 40 years ago and just had a really negative experience and didn't like judging people and didn't, and decided after he was released as bishop that he would never sit for another worthiness interview ever again. Uh, but he didn't want to leave the church and he still goes to church. And he wrote a book about his experience. And this is how I've navigated this. His experience, I think, is very different from mine, very different from other people, but he's found a way to navigate a life in the church on his terms. That's on the edge of the inside of the church. And there are so many people, though. One of the things that I did not anticipate when I wrote my CES Letter reply and when I started talking to church critics is how many people are on the borders of the church, on the outside of the church. I mean, people leave the church, but they're still connected to it, either because there are parts of the church that still resonate with them, or they are married to someone who is still a believer and still on the inside. They have children, they have parents, they have family, they have friends. They are still part of the church community, whether they want to be or not. But they're doing so on the borders of the church, and they're doing it from the outside looking in. And the thing that I don't see anywhere except in this podcast, is a discussion where people on the borders, whether in or out, are able to have a say, are able to have a voice, are able to have a conversation. It is stunning to me how difficult it is to have productive conversations with people who leave the church when you are in the church. And I think that's very much on people who are in the church, even more so than people who have left. The thing that's stunning to me when I talk to people who have left, when they realize that I'm not there to shame them, I'm not there to drag them back in, I'm not there to trick them, I'm not there with this hidden agenda, I'm there to listen, and I'm there to engage in a conversation and engage in dialogue. It's amazing to me just how open and vulnerable they are willing to be for the most part. And that there's a lot of complexity to their lives and to their relationship with the church. And it's not all negative. It's, you know, there are still elements of the church, even when you talk to someone like Roy Hawn, he posted something on Facebook recently about how angry he still is. But I remember talking to him and he says, well, I'm Mormon through and through. You know, I mean, even now, even after he's left the church, the church is ingrained in him in a way that he can never give up, and that makes him angry to some degree. But there are also elements of that that I think he recognizes sort of shaped him into the man that he is now, and there's goodness there too. But this is the thing that, as I review the 2 years and I look over the episodes, and I look over and I look over the titles and I go, I remember that one and I remember that one and I remember that one. There's always a piece of it where you, you go, oh my gosh, this is a conversation nobody else is having. This is a conversation that, that just isn't taking place. And there is so much pain. There is so much suffering in the borderlands. There are so many people on the edge of the inside that feel that they are invisible and feel like they're sitting in gospel doctrine and they think they're the only person in the world that thinks whatever the teacher is saying is nuts. Or somebody who's left and think, uh, I burned every bridge. I'm never going to be able to have a relationship with people on the inside. I'm never going to be able to figure out how to navigate this. I mean, those are the people that, whether you're in or out, I consider, if you're on the borders of the church, I consider you my people. These are the people I want to talk to. These are the people I want to get to know. And these are the people whose voices I want to give voice to because there is so much that both of us, the people in and out of the church, can learn from those voices, because those are voices that are not being heard. We hear the very orthodox voices. We hear the very critical voices. There's plenty of airtime given to both of those camps. And I find both of them to some degree— I mean, I find tremendous value in, you know, what's being said by prophets, seers, and revelators in General Conference and what's being taught. But when you get to these discussions that are ancillary discussions, when you get to, you know, podcasts, the hardcore, and I hesitate to use his name, but Jacob Hanson type podcasts, the guy I had a big old debate with Those just are boring to me. I mean, it's not that I hate them or I'm angry about them. They just bore me. When it's this, I'm more righteous than everybody else and I know everything and all the apostates are terrible. I find those voices just to be boring and grating and they all sound the same. And the flip side, frankly, is the really angry podcasts that just hate the church and just want to tear it down and fulfill every stereotype that Jacob Hanson has of what people who leave look like. It's not that I'm offended by them or angry by them. I find them boring. I find, and I don't see that in podcasts so much as, I mean, that's kind of the online discussion. That's the desnat discussion. That's you go on Twitter and you find people that just go out of their way to just rip on anybody who has left and to find some way to tear them down and some way to be angry. Well, I'm conflating the two now because I'm saying the Desnats like Jacob Hanson, but online you also see the critics who the church could do no right. The church is just nothing but awful and it's just terrible and everything they do is wicked and wrong. That's boring to me. I don't— there's nothing in those conversations that I think has anything of value that I want to listen to or engage in. But the conversations we have with the people we have these conversations with, uh, I can't get enough of them. I will sometimes go back and just listen to another episode. I did this just a couple of weeks ago. I went back and listened to our abortion episode.

Right.

Because somebody was talking about abortion and I said, oh, we talked about this. What did we say about it? And I went back and listened and it was like, it was like I was hearing it for the first time. And I thought, this is fascinating. This is fun. I don't know if the listeners enjoy it as much as I do, but I get something out of it every single time I revisit it.

Yeah.

So that's kind of my overarching, we're wandering here, uh, we're approaching the hour point, so we got to wind up here. But that's my sort of long— I'm not even sure what question I'm answering anymore.

Well, they kind of merge into, you know, because the podcast, there's so many relationships between each podcast, right? There's a lot of connections in between them that are quite, you know, common denominators that connect them all. And so I, and you, and you, you're right to talk, raise the, the podcast on abortion because we, we've been nervous, but some level of hope that we can have a conversation around very emotive topics like abortion, LGBTQ rights, etc., dealing with women in the church. You know, two guys, you talk about the rights of women in the church and trying to come across or communicate respectfully, thoughtfully, kindly, but also have a meaningful conversation at the same time. It's, it's not easy, but hopefully we, we've achieved some of that, but we're not afraid to discuss sensitive topics and we try our best. We're not perfect. We're not trained professionals in these, in these things. I don't describe myself as a professional podcaster and I don't want to be. I don't want to be too polished. Uh, you know, I want to have natural conversations and have those raw live, if you like, and capture them live, reactions and thoughts and comments. I think that's really, really important to be able to capture that. And so, and again, in terms of, as we wrap this up, we've tried to, you know, when the church is doing good, we acknowledge that. We don't shy away from that. We say, yeah, the church is doing all these things really well. When the church is not doing so well, we talk about that, you know, areas for improvement. When the church is really screwing up, well, we don't hold back on that as well. And I describe Inside Out, and the title's really important, by the way, Inside Out, really apt. And there's so many different levels just to the title, you know, inside out. It's so many personal and other levels, uh, you know, associated with, with that. But we are a middle-of-the-road podcast. I think you're on the inside, I'm on the out. Sometimes, as you say, you can be critical. I can say, well, hang on, look at this positive thing that they're trying to do. Hey, well, maybe they're trying to do this, and actually it's quite intelligent that they're doing that, and maybe they're trying to achieve that. So I think we kind of try to take an honest approach and a balanced approach, a pragmatic approach, and we've said that at the beginning of some of the podcasts. And I also think that the feedback we've had, it seems the Inside Out podcast is a a safe place for people to go and listen. And then they learn that, to your point, Jim, actually they're not alone. And there are other people out there that think and feel like they do. And they get a different perspective and it helps them. And that's what it's all about. So you're right, we're at the very end now. Any final comments before we wrap this up from your end?

No, other than to say thank you, Ian, for being my partner in this and for facilitating these discussions. I don't think they would be possible without you. I don't think that if I were to just have decided to have a podcast myself without your perspective and without your unique background and your point of view, that these episodes would have been anywhere near as insightful or as inspiring as I think they have been. So I just, I'm grateful every day for you and for what you have done and for, and really for your, your inspiration to come up with the podcast in the first place. This was your idea and it's a great idea. And I think, uh, I, I want to see it continue and grow and thrive.

Well, thank you so much. I feel the same way when I was thinking of this. I thought, well, I could go on a podcast and, you know, and share my experiences and I was I was like, I haven't got the courage to do that. But we did the crazy thing and created this podcast. And I could only think of one name. And I prayed about it, by the way.

I never told you that.

I prayed. And I felt good about your name. What?

Aren't you a apostate? I thought you're not allowed to pray anymore.

No, I say prayer. I pray. I'm not in the church, but I pray, believe it or not. And I prayed and I felt good about your name. Your, your name has been approved by the Lord.

Lovely.

The only true and living podcast upon the earth. Ain't that amazing?

There you go.

So I, I couldn't think of anyone better to share this experience with you. I've learned so much from you. Um, you and I go back a long way. I have nothing but love and, and, uh, respect, uh, for you and your family. And, uh, I'm so grateful to be doing this and I have, um, wanted this to continue well into the future. We want to thank all of our listeners, Jim Bennett, don't we? Our listeners have been amazing. You've been very kind, very thoughtful, very patient with us, certainly with me. I've been learning to do this podcast thing from scratch. You know, I've never done a podcast before. I'm like, what am I doing, right? So, you know, there's no training. I've had no formal training, of course. I don't think either of us had any formal training, I don't think. But, We enjoyed it. I, we hope our listeners will continue to enjoy the conversations. We want to thank our listeners. Without our listeners, then we don't have a podcast. We welcome our listeners' feedback, comments, critical comments. If you think we are off or we making a mistake or our information is incorrect, tell us. If you think we've got something right, tell us. If you think we're not covering something enough, let us know. If there's topics out there that we, you think need attention and deserve conversation, or a particular guest that you think we should have on, let us know. Again, thank you to our listeners for staying with us. We are looking forward to growing our podcast many, many years into the future. We're not going anywhere. And a stable source of hopefully reliable information and inspiration to help everyone, as many people as we can. Jim, a very special thank you to you, sir, for being a reliable, trustworthy, and inspirational and innovative partner in this whole podcast experience.

Right back at you, sir.

Thank you. And so on behalf of you and I, Jim, to all the listeners, we thank you for your time, and we look forward to having another wonderful, vibrant conversation together next week. Thank you, Jim Bennett.

Thank you, Ian Bennett.