Us vs. Them - with Greg Prince

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. I am your co-host Ian Wilkes, and I am joined by the immaculate Jim Bennett.

Hello, Jim. Hello, Ian. I didn't realize I was immaculate, but I'll, I'll take it.

You're looking pretty snazzy in your hair and your glasses and your white shirt. Very businesslike.

Well, you know, that's the white shirt is the uniform of the priesthood. It's in the scriptures.

It is. It is. Anyway, we have another exciting episode with our very own Craig Prince, who we all know really well by now, I'm sure. Welcome, Gregg.

Good to see you again. It's been so long. Less than 12 hours, I think.

I feel like we've all moved into the same flat or apartment. But it's fantastic. We're just honored and privileged to have you back, Gregg. Really enjoying learning from you. And our listeners just absolutely value your wisdom and your insights and your experience and your open-mindedness and your balance. So we we appreciate you taking time to come back on the Inside Out. For our listeners, as you know, and we don't need a reminder, but we've been listening and learning from Greg about a very important document titled A Roadmap for Improving Mormonism. And Jim Bennett and I have been having these conversations and discussions with Greg, and it's been absolutely fascinating. And we invite our listeners to continue with us as we go into the next conversation on that roadmap. And so I think we were at the— in the roadmap, we were covering key, many, many key themes. And I think the next one was us versus them. I think we kind of touched upon that on the last podcast conversation, but didn't quite get into that particular section or topic in the roadmap. Am I on track with that?

I think that's a good topic for today.

Yeah. So Greg, in the context of your document, which is a, I would describe it as a flexible blueprint, a living, breathing document, which I suspect you still want to maybe change and add and improve as you go forward. It, when you talk about us versus them, what do you mean by that? What's the context?

The church in which I was raised was very exclusivist in its outlook, meaning we had it all. Not only did they not have it, but in the named case of the Roman Catholic Church, thanks to Bruce McConkie, uh, Uh, they were the evil ones, the Church of the Devil, and that was the dichotomy that formed our worldview. So I grew up with an inherent distrust of them, whatever the them was. Uh, it was very unhealthy, but it took me many, many years to start to deconstruct that, that process was enormously aided and accelerated by my now long-term association with Wesley Theological Seminary in DC, where sitting beside and working beside people of most Protestant denominations, uh, I figured out that what I had been taught ain't necessarily so.

Interesting. I remember, Jim, I was in Stranraer one time, right, on my mission. I, I was so convinced to the very core that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had everything. I mean everything. Nothing was missing. We had the fullness of the gospel. And I had this, uh, uh, Jim, I'd like, love to get your thoughts and feelings on this, especially on your mission. I had this feeling or belief of certainty, certainty where the church, I'd found an organization that had all the answers, had the authority, was the only true living church upon the face of the earth according to Doctrine and Covenants section 130. And many other very bold statements. And that Joseph Smith, when he went to the grove of trees, and in one of the accounts he asked which church to join, and he was told, uh, to join none of the churches, for they were not truth, uh, churches. And that he was commissioned to restore, uh, the original Church of Jesus Christ with all of its structures, authorities, ordinances, et cetera, the completeness and fullness of the original and only true church. This is what I believed vehemently and fervently on my mission and since up until a few years ago. And I went around on my mission, Jim, feeling pretty bold and probably at times I look back, this is some self-criticism, a little bit of overconfidence on my part. And I look back now and probably some level of arrogance. Which I'm ashamed of. I remember Istran Ra with Elder Roper, who you know, and I was unafraid of knocking on, uh, the doors of the pastors, the vicars in the mansions, right? Those old buildings that had been around for centuries that were handed down from, uh, vicar or pastor, you know, generational. And I remember knocking on a door in Stran Ra and having a very interesting conversation with the the vicar or the pastor. He invited me in. El Ropa came in wondering what the heck we're doing talking to another leader of a Church of Scotland minister. He was a minister. And I was having this conversation about theology. And this guy had been to university and he knew his stuff. He knew his scriptures. And when he asked me a question, Greg, Jim, a theological, technical question, which I couldn't answer, do you know what I did? I bore my testimony.

There you go.

I bore my testimony. If I didn't have an answer, I just bore my testimony. And I said, you know, to the minister, I said, look, with respect, um, you're wrong. A little bug. I was just a kid. I was only 21 years old. And I told this minister who was in his 50s, um, younger than I am now, actually, uh, that he actually was in a false church, and he didn't take that very well. And I said, look, if you want me to, and this, I said, the truth can offend, and I'm not made to offend, but if you want me to come and speak to your congregation, I'd be happy to speak to your congregation. Very arrogant. I didn't say, I think at the time, in an arrogant way, but I could see how that would come across. But I was so certain that we were the only true church. And that, to what Greg's saying, that other churches actually were false. Do you remember the pre-1990 temple audience experience?

Oh sure. With the minister that comes out and starts reciting creeds to you.

Yes.

Well, I remember that and I thought that was, although it was strange and odd in kind of, you know, that kind of setting, it kind of just reinforced it for me in my mind, young mind, you know, having just joined the church a few years before that, um, you know, every other church and religion on the earth was actually false. So I went into the MTC and went on a mission with that attitude. Did you feel the same way? And, and that's a question for you as well, Greg, when you were younger. Did you both feel that level of certainty that I felt?

Oh, certainly.

We, we were part of God's army that was going to go out and fix it. What you just said, Ian, reminded me of a symposium held at the Library of Congress in 2005. It was to celebrate the bicentennial of the birth of Joseph Smith. And Jim Bennett's father was the one who enabled that conference to be in that venue.

Very cool.

Because one of his committee positions in the Senate had oversight over the Library of Congress.

Most likely the Appropriations Committee.

Yep.

Uh, it was a 2-day conference, and it had a mixture of church scholars, most from BYU, and non-LDS scholars. The non-LDS scholars did very well. The BYU crowd did very poorly. And the reason I bring this up, Ian, is that one of the BYU professors on stage was presented with a question that he couldn't answer, and so he bore his testimony. The response of one of the non-LDS scholars, a man from Britain who is a very distinguished scholar, historian, was vocally, "I think we need to restate why we are having this symposium." It was most embarrassing On the front row were Dallin Oaks, who had the historical department as part of his portfolio, Cecil Samuelson, who was the president of BYU at the time, and Marlon Jensen, who was the Church historian. We walked outside between sessions. I had been sitting with Helen Whitney, the PBS producer. We were joined by a third person whose name I won't give, but she looked at him and said, I need a reality check. Is this as bad as I think? And he said, it's worse. It really exposed how vulnerable so many of our people are if they step outside of their little box. And that little box tends to be very little. Certainly it tends not to extend beyond Utah Valley. And we think that we are protecting God's church with what we do. I think we're doing just the opposite. We do a lot of damage, uh, and it comes back to haunt us. I think we need to rethink our worldview. And start to come to terms with what really are we and how do we fit in the larger world scheme of religious institutions. Hence the we versus they. We need to change that to we and they.

Well, Greg, you at one point, and I'm trying to remember where you had said this, but I think you were talking to somebody at theological seminary and And they were saying, where do you sit at the table? And you said something along the lines of, we don't even recognize that there's a table.

You remember?

Yes, it was indirectly related to the seminary. Uh, I had gone golfing. Gee, this is nearly 20 years ago with the president of the seminary. We both grew up in the LA area, so we had that in common. It was just the two of us, and I just wanted to be a social outing. On the third tee, he said, okay, talk Mormonism. So I did for the next 15 holes. When we got back to the clubhouse for lunch, he said, you guys belong at the table. And I said, David, our problem is we have yet to acknowledge that there is a table. And to a large extent, that's still the case. Whatever the national and international councils are, I don't know the names, it's National Council of Religion or something like that. I don't think we've ever belonged to that. We're off in our own corner, patting ourselves on the back because we're the one and only true.

Boy, th— this really informed my entire adolescence, as well as my mission. You know, on my mission, I fancied myself some kind of master Bible basher, which now looks absolutely ridiculous in hindsight. Uh, I remember we, we were in Dundee, Scotland in the city center, and we walked up to this evangelical street meeting. They were doing kind of skits or something else, just talking religion and myself and my companion were the only ones that were listening. And it turned into this massive Bible bash because I started heckling them. And they ended up circling around me and just sort of barking out questions. And I was barking out all of the definitive answers because I knew everything. And in the course of this, this strange woman in a pirate's outfit walks up to me. And says, "I'm looking for buried treasure." And I just kind of stared at her. I'm like, "Get out of the way, I'm Bible bashing, please." And finally I said, "It's over there, it's over there." And she says, "Ah, it's a bank." And she whacks me over the head with a plastic baseball bat. And the next day I was told by several members that I had been on some national children's program that had been filmed there. President McConkie said to me, you, you need to talk to me before you sign any contracts. It's your new TV career. That was by far the most productive Bible bash I'd ever had because it— there was something positive that came out of it. Beyond that, the way that I was doing this as a 20, 21-year-old kid is just yanking out all of these proof texts from the Bible that very often don't mean what Mormons think they mean, but they're very helpful in bashing other people over the head and making us feel like we're really good religionists. And I remember, you know, bashing some Jehovah's Witness and talking about Exodus 33:11 where the Lord spoke unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he was savvy enough to know that further down the chapter, there's the Lord says, don't look at me because you can't look at me and live. I mean, there's a contradiction just right there in that, in that one chapter. And I didn't have any response to it because I'd sort of memorized my own attack schematic that really had nothing to do with finding any kind of common ground or converting anybody. I don't know of anybody that has come out of one of those kinds of Bible-bashing sessions and said, well, jeesh, you bullied me into the truth and I have to join your church. I mean, that just doesn't happen.

I think—

oh, keep going.

I think about President Monson's administration, effectively, it wasn't a very long administration because he was lapsing into dementia even in the early days of it. But there were two things that he said that really resonated with me. Uh, one was his fourth mission of the church. We had had for decades the three missions of perfecting the saints, preaching the gospel, redeeming the dead. And he added the fourth, which is to help the poor and needy throughout the world, which really resonated with the outside people. The president of Wesley Seminary, on meeting with him, told me that that really impressed him. Now, that went away. I hope it comes back at some point. But the other thing he said in the only press conference that he gave, and he gave it the day it was announced he was the president, was the cooperation the church had given with other religious traditions and how productive and laudable that was. Um, good for him, and good for trying to continue that. We do some of that. I have a friend in D.C. who was in the Obama White House who was invited to the, the advisory council meeting of JustServe, which is this fascinating organization created by the church. And I looked at the advisory council of that. There was only one Latter-day Saint on it. Sharon Eubank, who chaired it. But among the other members was the president of Catholic Charities. Two other members were two of the top leaders of Salvation Army. So at the top, I think that message has sunk in much more so than it has at the grassroots, because I still see so much of the attitude among the laity of we've got it all.

Oh, the grassroots, I don't think have gotten that message at all. I mean, if you go online, I remember watching after the Michigan shooting and there was an outpouring of, of grief from the entire world and there was an outpouring of compassion. But on the heels of that, all of these evangelicals who said, yeah, this is all terrible, went out of their way to say, yeah, but we need to make sure that everybody knows that Mormons aren't Christians. And then that got the hackles up of the rank and file who went back. And to this day now, I mean, it's just, it's been a few months, but you can go online., and you can find all of these pointless discussions about, you know, whether or not you can be saved without believing in the Trinity, and all of these Mormons just sort of focusing in on, well, our theological interpretation is the only one that matters, and if you, if you believe something slightly different from that, have a good time in outer darkness. I mean, the idea that in the next life we're gonna stand before the Savior and he's going to give us a theological quiz to determine whether or not we believe that the Godhead is one in purpose or one in substance. I mean, it's just so, it just seems so absolutely ridiculous to me. At this point. And you don't hear that kind of us versus them rhetoric nearly as pronounced as you used to, but you don't hear a repudiation of the prior us versus them rhetoric either. It's the same thing we were talking about in the livestream, that when the church changes direction and changes course, it never acknowledges error. It never acknowledges that it's changing direction. It's just all about the dog that didn't bark. It just stops talking about the things it doesn't want to emphasize. And the end result is that people who don't want to get the message don't get the message. And there isn't any sort of vehicle for them to be corrected when they don't get the message. Is that a fair assessment, you think?

Yeah, it is. I'm a little shocked that you didn't include in your commentary there, the threshold percentage of home teaching that's necessary to get you into the celestial tribe.

Right. Which, which has been abandoned now. I mean, I, I want, we've changed to ministering, and when they changed the ministering, they said this doesn't really change anything, but it has. It has fundamentally, because you used to walk around with the guilt that you hadn't talked to your families You know, it was the, I was in the movie, The Home Teachers, and the final title in the movie, you know, they, they have a, uh, some text that comes up that tells you what happens to the characters. And it says the, the, the two home teachers, the two leads, they had 100% home teaching 10 months out of the year because they didn't want to visit anybody on Halloween or New Year's Eve. Because that's, gee, do you do your home teaching on the last day of the month? But I mean, all of these sort of metrics that define what is a good Latter-day Saint and what is not a good Latter-day Saint, when they sort of fall by the wayside, we have to look for other ways to feel superior because we are superior. We are us and they are them. And the fewer identity markers that you have that allow for that, uh, create a great deal of insecurity and uncertainty among the members who crave that. And the older I get, the less I crave that. If I, I mean, I don't know if I ever really did, but at this point it's like, it just seems so ridiculous to me. So I, I, and, you know, it, it wasn't just the Bible bashing on my mission or even the theology. Growing up, I very much felt set apart, not in the way that we use that term with regard to, you know, setting somebody apart for an office or for a priesthood sort of thing. I use the term of I'm different. I'm different. I am not one of you. And I grew up in a predominantly Jewish area and always sort of felt like the alien, the outsider. And I felt like the church was sort of cultivating that, that they were encouraging that. And growing up, it made me feel to some degree this sense of superiority. But as I got older, and I remember when I got to college, It made me feel estranged, alien. I felt like I couldn't ever really connect with somebody who didn't share the true church, the true gospel of Jesus Christ. And it got me into trouble when I started dating, and a lot of the girls that I was dating were not members of the church. And so, of course, my first mission was to make sure that I converted them. And that was not successful. Actually, it was successful in one case, but that's a whole other, that's a whole other story. But it, it's all it did was create distance. I didn't see any upside to it. And as I've gotten older and I've gotten into when I wrote my CES letter reply, and I started getting deluged with people saying, thank you very much for helping me save my faith. I then started going and talking to critics of the church. I went and talked to Bill Reel. I went and talked to John DeLampe, and I started getting emails from people saying, you did not convince me to come back to church, but you did convince me that my family and friends that are still in the church are still good people. And I started to discover this whole realm of people that are on the edge of the inside, that, that are— have either left the church but still have family, friends in the church. And we don't talk to any of them because we have otherized them. The minute you leave this church, you become— not only do you become them, You become the most despised, reprehensible, untouchable them that you can possibly be. You're not just like somebody who doesn't know where the truth is and is kept from the truth because they know not where to find it. You have deliberately rejected the truth and you are korahor. You are a terrible person. And as I started talking to people, in these kinds of circumstances, I realize just how much damage that does. And so, Ian, when you came to me and said, I want to do this podcast with you on the outside and me on the inside, I thought, there is such a hunger and such a need for that conversation to take place because everywhere else it is us versus them. You have the, the podcasts of people that are trying very hard to defend the church and talk about how wonderful it is. And then you have the podcasts of people that are tearing down the church and attacking the church. But where are the conversations, uh, of people who just want to be able to make those connections and recognize that we are all children of God regardless of where we worship or if we worship? And those conversations are really, really few and far between. And Ian, I mean, you have firsthand experience with this.

Yeah, this is why the Roadmap for Improving Mormonism really resonates with me. It's such an important document. There's nothing in it that just doesn't connect with me. It all connects with me on a personal level because the us and them, and I'm not surprised that conversation is going in this direction at all because as I look back at my life and describe some of the experiences I had, investigating, well, after I joined the church, uh, when I was on mission, was, uh, a committed, devoted, faithful member. It, it had, um, an adverse effect in, in respect to me being sometimes extremely judgmental, and I'm deeply ashamed of that. On my mission, um, I Saddens me to, as I look back and remember how I thought and felt at the time, to feel that people around me, you know, in the streets, they're knocking on the doors, etc., were all wrong. And we had, I had all the answers and I could save them or the church could save them. I remember I wrote about this in my journal. It actually had a bit, uh, uh, an impact on me where there was a couple who were, we were teaching them, we were in Dumfries. It was my first area. I was being trained. Um, Albert Jensen, who was my trainer, was a very strict, orthodox, uh, black and white kind of trainer. And this couple, we were talking about eternal marriage. And the couple said that they, well, the love that they had for each other, a young couple, that that, um, love would last forever. And my companion and I said, well, no, it won't. Um, you know, when you die, it's gonna end. In fact, there's no guarantee you're gonna be together in this life. And the love that you've got is not enough in order to, um, be together forever. You have to get baptized by somebody with the right authority and you have to go to the temple. So, and their look on their face was absolute shock. There was a few of those conversations that happened on my mission, and I was ashamed to admit that I was part of those conversations where I communicated some type of judgment upon them. So it affected how I thought, how I felt, and did for many, many years after my mission. Felt that people were not less, as in their value as an individual, but that they were blind to the truth. So I was very ashamed of that level of judgment. And just going back to your earlier point, because definitely want to get back into a conversation here with Greg on the, you know, Greg's thoughts on this. You spoke earlier, Jim Bennett, about, um, uh, the recent events, tragic events that have impacted LDS, uh, members, LDS buildings, etc. You know, very dramatic events recently. And from those events, a number of feeds came up in my Facebook feed. One of them was a Christianity versus Mormonism Facebook page. I was intrigued by that. And I joined the Facebook group. And over the last 2, 3 months, during these events and since these events have taken place, I've been in that group trying and failing to convince hardline evangelical Christians that the Mormon Church is in fact Christian, or at least has some Christian elements to it. And it's just a Bible-bashing, Facebook group and, and not, I'm not getting anywhere. Um, and so, you know, I'm on it. Yeah, I'm on the outside of the church trying to defend the church because I still see huge elements of the church which is Christian. I know that I'm not gonna, you know, deviate from something I know to be real, but I can't convince anyone in that group who is not Mormon that the church is not Christian. And so I, I mean, I'd love to get some of them on a podcast and have that conversation. But since I've left the church, by the way, I'm described by a member of my own ward here as the, my family laugh at this, I'm described as the angry podcaster, which is astonishing. I never know how I got that title because many times I've tried to defend the church even though I'm on the outside. But because I've left the church and resigned, I'm now an apostate. And by the way, I know people, friends of mine have said, Ian, 'we pray for you, we miss you.' I said, 'that's very kind.' And they say that they put my name on the prayer roll in the temple. I said, 'well, that's very sweet.' I said, 'you do know I've resigned, don't you? I'm not actually a member.' And it was like, 'oh no, we didn't know that.' I said, 'does that make a difference on whether my name goes into the prayer roll?' They said, 'well, yeah, yeah, it kind of, kind of does.' And I said, 'yeah, sure, you pray for me though.' Yeah, but You kind of resigned. And, uh, so that was, um, I was quite saddened and shocked by that. But if I was inactive or less active, there's a hope for me that I'll come back. And therefore I am eligible to come on, you know, to be, uh, added to the prayer roll. And, uh, but since I've resigned, all is lost. I am the angry podcaster. The apostate, the person that fell from a stake presidency, you know, from a great height. And woe unto me because I had this truth and light. And as you know, the more truth and light you've got, the bigger the judgment. You know that map that they've got, which talks about the path to the celestial kingdom, the path to the, you know what I'm talking about, the plan of salvation. I think it's cool.

Yeah, I mean, there have been a number of maps and all of them are a little bit ridiculous, I think.

Well, we, we, we, we, we are, uh, we've seen these different maps. You've got one to the Cecil Kingdom. You've got three different levels of Cecil Kingdom. You've got one to the terrestrial, and it talks about, you know, the kind of people that follow that path. You've got one to the celestial kingdom, and you got a bit of a description of, of the kind of people that end up in the Cecil Kingdom. And what's the one at the bottom where I am?

You're going to outer darkness.

I'm going to outer darkness because I have a apostatized, right? So because of my knowledge and, um, understanding of the gospel or the church, et cetera, uh, to whom which was given, uh, you know, there's a, a bigger responsibility. Therefore, I am, uh, according to that plan of salvation map, technically going to outer darkness, which, um, I hope that doesn't happen. That sounds a bit scary. So yeah, just, but just to kind of finalize this part of the thoughts here, the church, the doctrine, the attitude, the MTC, the mission president, the first one, not President Banks, but the first one, President Dunn, just turns me into this judgmental ass and arrogant and thought I knew all the answers. And, you know, we are the only true church, you know, and you know, you need to take us seriously kind of thing. So I'm just ashamed about so much of that. And if I could go back and apologize to some of the people who I, I knew I hurt and offended, um, I, I would. So I don't know, you know, I, I just thought at the time I was doing the right thing, right?

Well, does, does any of this sound familiar to your experience, Greg?

Oh, absolutely. Uh, a critical point in my development was when I flew up to Boston, spent an afternoon with Rabbi Kushner, who was the author of When Bad Things Happen to Good People. I brought up this one and only thing, and he chuckled and smiled, and he said, just think of it as a statement of loyalty, not a fact. And I think that's what it turns out to be, but we so often don't treat it as that. We think it is a fact that we're not just good or the best, it's we're the only. And I've not seen where that does any good, and I've seen where it does a lot of harm.

Well, what's the solution to it?

I think the solution is to to appropriate the words that the president of the seminary told me, to turn the church inside out. He was talking about the church writ large. We have been so insular and have been so preoccupied looking inward that we have not been good citizens. We're off there in our own little corner, uh, patting ourselves on the back because, well, we look after our own. And there's some laudatory things that we have done for our own, but there's much more that needs to be done outside the church. I think at the highest level, again, as we talked earlier in this discussion, uh, the leaders get that to an extent that the laity does not get that, that they are cooperating, that Their humanitarian outreach goes way beyond the borders of the church, and it's a very impressive infrastructure they have built to be able to step forward in the face of disaster anywhere in the world. That has not— that attitude has not trickled down yet, and it needs to.

Well, I remember in 2012, when Mitt Romney was the Republican nominee for president, um, the, the hit on him to a large degree was this is a millionaire who is out of touch with the common person and all, you know, he spends all of his time at, uh, rich cocktail parties and, you know, they sort of created this caricature of a rich guy. That bore absolutely no resemblance to Mitt Romney's lived experience. And my cousin Grant Bennett spoke at the Republican National Convention and talked about Mitt Romney's service as a member of the church and how he spent all of his time. My, my cousin was a bishop in Mitt Romney's stake when Mitt was the stake president. And talked about all of the acts of service and all the things that he was doing. And I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who had absolutely no connection to the church. And I said, see, Mitt Romney, look at all the good that he does. And my friend said, I don't see any good that he does. Yeah, he works in your church. What has he done for anybody else? And I really didn't have an answer for that. And, and my answer essentially was, well, look at all the good he's doing for those people in the church. But what I realized from that exchange with my friend was that people looking from the outside in see an insular organization that, yeah, we help our own and we lift up our own. But when it comes to them, to the people outside the organization, they don't see anywhere near enough evidence that we care at all about them. And again, this is changing. We are moving in the right direction in this regard. Ian and I had a long conversation on this podcast with my sister and my brother-in-law who are serving a humanitarian mission in Australia. And are assigned to go find humanitarian projects that will benefit people regardless of their religious affiliation. And you're seeing more and more of that, and you're seeing us moving in that direction. JustServe is a wonderful example of that. But again, as you point out, Greg, uh, that doesn't have the, the widespread reach within the church that it needs to have. And you, you look at the attitude of the membership of the church, and I think they see service or, uh, support of people outside the church as sort of an ancillary kind of duty, almost like, okay, it, it's kind of on par with home teaching. It's just one more thing that— one more box we have to check. It's, there's nothing central about it. There's nothing, uh, that's, it's not seen as a core mission of the church. You know, when President Monson added that, I was, added that mission to the church, I was writing editorials for the Deseret News. And we got instructions, okay, we need to write editorials that focus on this added mission of the church and helping the poor and the needy. And it just kind of felt like, okay, great. But I mean, that's not something we've really done while I've been growing up. It was a very sort of difficult mental shift for me to make in terms of trying to essentially pretend not only that this is one of the great focuses of the church now, but that it has always been the focus because it hasn't been. As much as we want to pretend that it has been, it really hasn't been. So, the pushback also on the Ensign Peak money, I think highlights this because when we found out just how wealthy the church is and what a small sliver of that wealth goes to humanitarian efforts beyond the church. A lot of people looked at the church and just said, this isn't gonna work. This is a problem. You have all this money and you're hoarding it and you're not helping other people. And which led to President Oaks getting up and specifically outlining a lot of the humanitarian efforts. And we're, we're hearing more and more of these emphasized. But it's, it's not necessarily, yeah, you're right. We need to do more. It's, what are you talking about? We're already the best at this. We're already great at this. Look how much money we spend and how dare you criticize us for this. I, am I, am I reading too much into that, Greg?

That, oh, you mentioned Mitt Romney's campaign. I watched those speeches. Unfortunately, none of them were in the primetime coverage of the convention. So most of the public didn't hear them. But then how many weeks after that was it when he totally undid that with his 47% speech, right?

Well, Mitt— I mean, politically speaking, Mitt to a large degree had a tin ear, I think, because he was trying very hard to sound like, um, Ronald Reagan or just some kind of hardline conservative. Uh, I mean, now it's so difficult to figure out what a conservative and a liberal is, uh, in the age of Trump, but that's a whole other discussion. But you, you, you were seeing Mitt, I think, trying very hard to ape the kind of political rhetoric that he thought the, the red meat I mean, the base wanted, and he didn't do it very well, and I think that was pretty much the end of his campaign. But I, because I think the real Mitt Romney is not the guy that just dismisses 47% of the country. But I think that that is actually a pretty good metaphor for how people see the church. Because the church is what, 1% of the United States are members of the church, if that, if that. And, and so we dismiss 99% of the people because it's the 1% that only matters. They're the 1% with the only truth. I mean, it's an even smaller percentage in the UK and in Canada, Ian.

Well, and if you look at that number, it should lead you to the conclusion that if we're going to make a difference in the world, whatever that we is, the we has to be more than 1%. Now, how are you going to do that? Well, we're, we're not going to convert them. You can see the way the lines on the graph have been going. The way to expand that number is to join forces with other people of goodwill. Whether they be religionist or not doesn't matter to me anymore. It's that the threats that are very real and existential to our society and even to the physical Earth are so large that the only way we have a chance of getting the upper hand is joining forces.

I agree.

I, as I listen to you both, uh, and the way you just summarized that, Greg, I think you've absolutely nailed it. If I would go far as to say that this episode, this conversation is perhaps, or probably the most important conversation we've ever had together. And the reason why is where I say that. And I think, um, To me, it's so easy and simple to see, yet some of the brethren don't see it. If the— if they could just listen to this conversation, and if they could just see that the answer to many of the church's challenges and problems, the challenge of growth, respect, integrity, etc.,, providing a meaningful, uh, safe, uplifting, inspiring, uh, um, place to worship God and Jesus Christ. You know, all the, the metrics that the church is trying to, and the objective that church is trying to achieve. If they could only see that by reaching out, uh, through humanitarian projects and reaching out to other communities and helping the most vulnerable, which is what Christ did. It's the answer's so simple. It's just right there, just written on the side of the barn door, what Christ would write about and do about helping the most vulnerable, the disadvantaged, the excluded in society, working collaboratively in a team with other organizations and charities and faiths. To do great things. The church has got these vast resources and it's just scratching the surface. You're right. The leaders go out and got all these great photo ops with all these other people and charities and other religions, but it doesn't translate to the grassroots rank and file. Right now, my local building, the ward here, is closed. We have a massive homeless problem in, uh, our town. It's huge. Our building is closed. The homeless are not welcome, really, in some respects. They have to go through a certain process. If they show up at the chapel, they probably would be allowed in. Of course, they'd come in, but the church is missing the boat and has missed the boat at the grassroots level in helping, people and individuals who are in the most need right now. And I can't understand why the brethren, the leaders of the church, don't get it. They don't see it. They've got all these resources, uh, and, and they would, their relationship and the attitude about the church would change. It would, it would improve people's attitudes and outlook and view and perspectives of the Mormon Church. Dramatically if the church mobilized these extraordinary resources and the absolute huge volumes of goodwill and kindness and love that exists at the member level. Because let's face it, there are extraordinary people in the church, yet they're just not being mobilized. And the brethren don't see this. They don't see this. They're not listening to this podcast. They'd probably see it, or if they are seeing it, then they're not acting upon it, which is a whole other conversation. It's so simple. It's what Christ did, and it's what he would do, and what we will do when he comes back. And that's why last night on the Inside Out livestream, I boldly said you need to call Greg Prince into a senior leadership position and implement the measures in the roadmap. And if not implement them, all the measures in the roadmap, do this one thing, just do one thing by organizing and restructuring and mobilizing all these extraordinary resources in a way that brings enormous support and help to other communities and other charities. And do it on a grassroots level, project by project. Don't Bible bash. Don't have to go knocking doors, you know, and baptize everybody, etc., to demonstrate growth or show performance, etc. Go simply do what Christ did and go help and open the building and do stuff.

Right?

That's the answer. I would argue, my last point on this is I would argue the reason why this conversation is so important amongst many of the conversations I had is that I think every other issue or most of the issues point right back to this. You know, LGBTQ, you know, race, you know, other people of cultures, the, uh, other issues that we have with the church. If we were more inclusive, if we were more open and more universal in our outlook and our outreach, and by opening up and making available these vast resources, including the incredible 80,000-size missionary, uh, resources that we have to anyone, you know, we said last night, all are like unto God. And we opened up and we had a more inclusive, caring, open, less judgmental attitude, us and them kind of thing, it would be completely transformational for the church. It's so easy and simple, and it's there in big, bold, you know, shining lights, yet the brethren can't see it. So I, I just, you've got this opportunity, which is right there to become this great organization, this great resource, yet the brethren don't do it. And, and that to me is an example, frankly, of the church, in my opinion, has deviated. I, I would even go far to say that the church has apostatized. Against some of the very principles that Christ taught. It's become an organization that Christ opposed. I know that's a pretty bold statement, but that's what I feel. There are certain things and behaviors that the church is doing and certain things that the church is not doing that I don't think Christ would agree with. I really don't. And I think the church has lost its way and, someone is, it just hasn't got that, um, intestinal fortitude, that's, that's, um, integrity to get it back to the basics of what the gospel, not the church necessarily, but what the gospel is and what it is all about. Now, am I way off there or am I kind of in line with what the roadmap is advocating.

I think you're in line. Let me give you an example of what can happen with us doing minimal things. This was before I was invited to the Board of Governors at Wesley. I was on a committee, but I got a call from the president of the seminary. This was between the 2008 election and the inauguration of Obama. One of his board members, a very wealthy gentleman, decided he wanted to have what popularly became known as the People's Inaugural. He rounded up something like 1,000 people from all over the country. Battered women, homeless people, disabled veterans, people who never would have had a chance to go to inauguration, brought them into town, put them up at the JW Marriott Hotel, got them new clothes if they needed it. And he called the president of the seminary and said, I would like to have a prayer breakfast. I need logistical support. Can the seminary help me? And he said, "Of course." And then he said, "Earl, what would you think of having a Latter-day Saint as one of your speakers at the prayer breakfast?" And Earl said, "I think it would be a fine idea. Would you arrange for that?" And that came just from us not being standoffish anymore. Perhaps it was what I had said a couple of years before that to him, about we have yet to acknowledge that there is a table. And once we make that acknowledgement, things will happen naturally when people realize, hey, we are part of the larger community. So let's start to work together.

Well, listening to both, to both of you, I, I have a question that I would very much like to hear both of your answers to. Because, Ian, you talked about the idea, okay, the brethren just don't see it, and I'm not sure that is the problem. I think maybe the problem is the brethren do see it, and the brethren would like to change it, and they don't really know how. And I think one of the obstacles to changing it is that They want to be able to reconcile both the exclusivist, we're the only true church, this is our theology, we are leaning into everything that we have been taught all our lives about how all the other churches were wrong and how we're the only ones with the authority. And, but we also want to marry that with our understanding of the essential nature of inclusivity, and we want the world to see us as inclusive. They want to have their cake and eat it too. And I don't think that that's possible, but I think that's the obstacle. I don't think it's, they're just blind to it. It's okay. Yeah, we need to do this. How do we do this while maintaining exactly the opposite approach in our theology. I mean, is that a correct diagnosis?

I think it is. I don't know if I've mentioned this before. Several years ago, Jelen and I were in Charlottesville, Virginia, because I was on the Mormon Studies Council there. Richard and Claudia Bushman were also on the council, and they asked that they could ride back to DC with us. So we had a couple hours in the car together, and I asked him if he thought the brethren were aware of the magnitude of faith crisis, because Richard is very well connected and very respected all the way up to the top, as he should be. His response was, yes, they know, but they don't know what to do about it. And Jim, I think that plays into what you just said. Part of the reason I think is that they are in effect shackled to the past. I think this is a topic we may want to spend an entire episode on, and that is What is the downside of terms such as revelation and inspiration in how they hold the church back from taking bold moves into the future? And I think that's where we are on some of these things. They're looking backward more than forward.

Yeah, I find this extraordinary thing to hear. And try to get my mind around it because Jim Bennett's saying they do see it and they're trying to reconcile it. And that's what you're saying, Greg, as well. How do they— the shackles of the past, they see it. You're saying that they don't know what to do. I find that mind-blowing because where is the leadership? Where is that boldness? The scriptures talk about be bold but not overbearing. Remember that scripture on our missions there? Jim Bennett. We were taught that a lot, I think, on my mission for sure. And where's the leadership? Where's getting back to the fundamental principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ? And that is kind acts of physical service and emotional and spiritual service at the basic level. What's so complicated about that? I know they see it. They're intelligent people. Uh, it's there. And I'm not saying for one second they don't do it. I'm, I want to check my comment. I know that a lot of this stuff goes on. The members do wonderful things. The leaders do great things. I'm arguing that the church is nowhere near delivering on its full potential, a sleeping tiger, if you like. It could do far more. Jim, you mentioned about the financial, you meant to use the word slither of the hundreds of billion dollars that it's got that it spends on humanitarian and other things, et cetera. It, it is a very minor, uh, percentage, small portion really. And so what I can't understand is that these individuals who are so intelligent, who see it and then don't do anything about it or don't know what to do. In my life, and this is the advice I got years ago in my, in my job, the advice I got both personal, in the church and professionally, if you don't know something, you go to somebody that does, right? You go to, you go to somebody that has knowledge and insight, experience, wisdom, who can help you through a problem, show you the way and show you the vision and help you implement that. Well, the church has got access to extraordinary minds, Greg Prince being among them, Richard Bushman, and there are others, and there are many others, of course, where they could sit down and listen and say, hey, you know, what do we do? Here's a problem. This is what we're trying to achieve. We're trying to get back to the fundamental principles, assuming they are trying to get back to the fundamental principles. If they're not, then the church is absolutely lost for sure. But if they want to address this and change this, Um, there's nothing standing in their way. They're intelligent. The answer's there. If they don't have the answer and know how to do it, there are people out there that will help them. And they can get back to basics and they can, uh, change and reorganize the church from an operational perspective and do a lot more reach out, um, outreach and support to people, communities, you know, to clothe people, Gospel. You know, in our town, we've got serious homeless problems. People living on the streets, they can't afford to feed themselves. Groceries are so expensive. There's a drug-related issue, of course, and you'll see this in your own towns, I'm sure, in, you know, it's across the world. They can't afford to clothe themselves, feed themselves. They have no shelter right there. Gentlemen, that's Jesus Christ's gospel. Shelter, food, love, befriending, um, and clothes, right? That's what we teach. So the answer is there. How to do it? I, I actually think the brethren know how to do it. I think it's more political than that. I think, I think Greg's right. I think they're shackled to the past and they're trying to figure out how do they make that. I mean, I'm assuming the trying to figure it out. If they're not, then if they're not committed or understanding how to fully implement the gospel at the basic level, uh, in the way that we're talking about, then I think they're lost. If they are struggling with, hey, we know what to do, we just don't know how to do it, well, that's a short-term excuse because you can go to people to help them out to implement it. But they've also got the humanitarian program. They know how to do it. They just haven't mobilized themselves and mobilized the, the grassroots. There's no excuse for the leaders of the church, frankly, on this. And I just, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm just puzzled as to why they don't act upon it. And, and if they're not doing it for whatever reason, I think it's very, um, sad. I think it's very selfish and I think they've become institutionalized and it's more about the institution. Uh, if I'm, if I'm completely way off here, I, I, I'm not saying again that they're not doing great things. They do. They just haven't fully optimized or maximized the resources that they, that they have available to them. And that it's just no excuse not to do that, frankly.

I, I think this begs for a session on how to effect change in the church.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We, in my work life, I deal with managing change all the time, right? Project change management, organizational development, organizational change. It's a constant battle, but in the corporate world, in the business world, at times there are people who rise up and they become great leaders in business, entrepreneurs, visionaries, and they are very effective enacting change and the transformational. I've had the blessing of being able to learn from these extraordinary business leaders, and they're just wonderful, wonderful people. And the organization becomes just absolutely extraordinary, and it starts to become this extraordinary engine of influence for the good and power to deliver projects, et cetera. And so, you know, there are smart, intelligent people out there who know how to affect change, and the church has access to this, this talent and these resources.

Well, I think, Greg, you've given us a thesis for our next discussion, uh, because it's such a challenge in a church that insists that not only are we not supposed to advocate for change, but tries to pretend that it doesn't change. Which is still, it's always bizarre to me that so many members of the church will say on one hand, we are the church with continuing revelation with a living prophet of God. And we are also the church that never, ever, ever, ever, ever changes. Those are two irreconcilable positions. And so I think, you know, Ian, to your point, uh, I think that it's not necessarily that they don't want to lead or they don't even know how, because I think that they, in their heart of hearts, they know where we need to go. They know what the changes are that need to be made. I think there is fear. Fear that if those changes are made too quickly, or they're made, um, with an acknowledgement of the weakness and fallibility of previous positions, that it will drive people out of the church. They, they, they want to be able to maintain that illusion of infallibility, uh, at the same time that they have to make the changes that would shatter that And that, I think, is the central tension driving every problem in the church.

But if you do a cost-benefit analysis, what is the cost of doing nothing?

No, that's exactly right. Richard Bushman, in that discussion he had in that restaurant that got him into trouble where he said the central narrative of the church is not true, it can't be sustained. He also said, by somebody made a question, it's like, well, grandma is concerned. Grandma is going to be upset if we, you know, we're, we're to let gay people be sealed in the temple to each other. And Richard's response was, yeah, by saving grandma, we are losing the future. And, and I think again, that's that central tension. There are so many people that don't want to see a lot of these changes. And I think the brethren are trying to make everybody happy, and you can't do that. It's not possible.

I find this conversation extraordinary because how can you get it wrong on serving others? What can go wrong? How can you not, um, you know, what is there to get wrong? And going out there and communicating is in, hey, you know, we're going to recommit ourselves to serving others and to going further like Christ did, and reaching out into our community to help those most in need. How can you get that wrong? What part of the messaging in that can you get wrong? I mean, now, what is—

I don't think that's a rhetorical question, though. Because I think what you can get wrong is that they're afraid that people will recognize, oops, all of these people that I thought were them are really us. That's what you get wrong, is that I think they're scared to recognize, you know what, you're not special just because you're a Latter-day Saint. Everybody else out there, there are good people out there, maybe some better people.

This is, I think, the biggest challenge to the Mormon Church, in my opinion, by far. Because on the one hand, you've got the doctrine— I know we're out of time, eh— but the doctrine where, you know, love everybody, you know, love your fellow neighbor, love God, love your fellow neighbor, all are like unto God. Everybody's a child of God. Everybody's a child of God.

Okay.

We're not better than anyone else. You know, we say that in one breath and then the other part of it is, well, you know, we're the only true church. We've got all the answers. Our way is the only way, can't get back to kingdom of God unless you get baptized a Mormon, you have to go to the temple, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I think the answer is in this conversation, you know, the answer to all, many of the issues, maybe not all, but many of them is to have a, uh, an honest conversation at the leadership level and, and someone bold, running the almas in them, You know, one of the— President Oaks, that's his job. This is his job to do this. He should be getting the brethren together to say, look, brethren, you know, let's get back to basics. Let's take this organization. Let's become even greater by extending our resources to help those in our community who are most at need. It's right there. And you mentioned fear. You said that they're afraid. The scriptures say where there is fear, there is no love. I think that's in the New or Old Testament. I remember reading that a while back. Well, you know, the gospel is not a gospel of fear, right? Previous apostles and prophets weren't afraid. Prophets in the Book of Mormon weren't afraid. They stood upon walls and had arrows, you know, being thrown at them, right? They were unafraid to go to any group or crowd. No matter what the opposition was, to do the right thing. And so I think the church, the leaders are just missing the opportunity. Yeah, you can do your cost-benefit analysis, and I get that. I get that. You know, that's the business side of it. For me and many others as well, it's simple. Get back to the gospel basics of what Christ communicated and taught and lived through example of what the gospel is. And they've deviated from that. You've got to get back on track. And the love and the service will overcome the fear and it will transform the church. And the numbers, if you focus on the numbers, the numbers will go up because people will have love and respect for the church and they will come into the church because Hey, the church is like, save me. And it saved me. You know, when I was 16, I will never forget that. Even now with the hurt and pain that I've gone through, right? Having, you know, gone through that whole so-called apostasy experience, I will never forget all the good greatness that the church has blessed my life with, ever. Anyway, I know we're out of time. Any other final comments, thoughts from you, Greg?

I look forward to the next discussion of change.

Me too. I think you're right. I think that's an absolutely important conversation to have. I'm so grateful to have this conversation with you. For me personally, I've learned a great deal. Any final comments, thoughts from you, Jim, before we close?

Just grateful for both of your insights here and grateful to have this discussion and hope to have many more.

Absolutely. I feel the same way. To all the listeners, thank you for listening. Thanks for being with us. I hope you enjoyed this as much as we did. And again, thank you, Greg, and thank you, Jim, for being part of this very important conversation as we continue to discuss with you the Roadmap for Improving Mormonism produced by Greg Prince. Thank you, Greg. Thank you, Jim Bennett. Thank you both.