What the Church Gets Right

Hello and welcome to the third episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I'm here as always with my partner in crime, Ian Wilkes. Hello, Ian.

Hello, Jim.

Welcome, welcome. We're, we're off and running. And as we were talking about what we wanted to talk about in this week's podcast, we were discussing the fact that very often these kinds of podcasts and even our own episodes we get into all of the things that are frustrating with the church, all of the things that the church is doing wrong to some degree. And we thought it might be appropriate to turn that on its head and talk about some of the things that the church is doing right. Because I think one of the reasons why both of us had been attracted to the church, why you joined the church as a young man, And why I've stayed in the church throughout my life is because there is a great deal of good that the church does. And the critics of the church don't necessarily want to give the church credit for a lot of that. But I think it's worth exploring and discussing some of the specifics in the way the church benefits people and how the church is of great benefit to the community at large. And the church is feeling, I think, a lot of pressure in that regard because the amount of money that the church has has come to light. And the amount of money that the church uses to do humanitarian efforts and those sorts of things is a relatively small percentage of that. And I remember in the October of 2022 conference, President Oaks stood up and listed $900 million worth of humanitarian efforts that the church had made in the previous year. And $900 million is an awful lot of money, but in comparison to $100 billion or even $150 billion, which are the estimates of the amount of liquid assets that the church has, It's to some degree a drop in the bucket. So I think part of this discussion, maybe I, I'm backing away from what I said when I said, okay, we're only going to be positive. It would be easy, I think, to spend this hour focused on how much more the church ought to be doing. And I think that's a fair question. But at the same time, I want to focus on what they are doing. And how much good they've been able to do regardless of how much money is being spent, if that makes any sense. What has been your experience with this in your own relationship to the church?

Sure. First, I'm very pleased that we're doing this. You know, you and I have talked about doing a podcast focusing on all the good that the church does. There's a great deal or a great volume of negative information out there, as you know, about the church from multiple sources. It can be extremely vicious. Much of it, you could argue, is justified. There's a lot of it I think is perhaps not justified, depending on who you talk to and their experience. It appears on lots of different issues that the church does have a credibility problem. You know, it's history, it's policy, leadership, financial. It seems like there's problems everywhere you look, and it's very easy to get bogged down into all the negative issues that the church has. And, and actually for good reason. I think there's a lot of legitimate concerns that people have, you know, with the church. But the church has done extraordinary good, and I do want to get into that., into this podcast. In my research, I, I, Jim, I couldn't find a podcast that focused purely on all the positive things that the church had done. If it exists, I, I don't, I don't know where it is. I, I certainly can't find it, I think. And so, you know, context and background and personal experience are really important, I think, in this podcast. I go back to a, a few years now, maybe 13 years ago, I think, when as a stake presidency, we were set apart by Elder Oaks and Elder Cook. Then I made— I actually made notes of that meeting, those meetings that we had. I also made notes— no one told me not to make notes— of the actual setting apart when Elder Oaks laid his hands, Elder Cook laid their hands upon my head. And I remember the words, many of the words at least. And some of the words were that we, or I, was tasked with laying the foundation of the church in, in, in this particular area where we reside and to bring the church out of obscurity and out of darkness. He kind of half referenced or quoted section, uh, Doctrine and Covenants section 1, verse 30. And so in that blessing and, and the subsequent training, Elder Cook and Elder Oaks talked about at least two major themes, two major focus areas. One of them, and this came into the blessing as well, one of them was hastening the work, so accelerating, advancing the work. There were references in the blessing pertaining to that, and also there were references during the meetings and the training sessions post-setting apart. And the other one was bringing the church out of obscurity. But I think the challenge that the— and again, having the spotlight placed upon the church, I remember numerous meetings as a state presidency to, to see what we could do more effectively, more efficiently, to bring the church out of obscurity in this particular region where, where we live. And that included engaging with what the General Authority described as opinion leaders. This is establishing relationships with influential, uh, people that reside in, in our area. There's a lot of discussion, training around that. But what's happened over the, uh, since then, and probably Certainly prior to that, but certainly since then the church has— by the way, this was a time of— let's get my dates right here. I think this was when we were set apart. This was just prior to the Mitt Romney presidential campaign. I'm going back to 2012, 2010 now, or 2010. Yeah. So this was 2010. And I think just after that, 2011, we heard about the Mitt Romney presidential campaign. There's a lot of conversation going on in our stake and across the world, actually, that this was the Mormon moment, I think they called it, the moment in the spotlight where the world was actually looking at the church through this presidential campaign. And you can speak to this more, much more than I can, because you've been involved in that campaign. But I remember many conversations about this, and this was an opportunity to bring the church forward, bring it out of obscurity, bring it into the light. And actually highlight the virtues of the church. I remember many of those conversations, and I think there's a lot of positive things that came from that where people and organizations were looking at the church and looking at some of the attributes that the church and the values that the church subscribed to. It also came with a lot of negative criticism. As people did look into the church, they did find many issues, and I think that's one of the challenges that the church is facing is the the internet, which they can't control. They can't control the information, they can't no longer control the narrative. But I don't know if they ever actually, as prophets, apostles, I don't think they could see or foresee the extent and the level of negative opinion that the church has faced over the last decade or so. Certainly there's been a lot of good things said about the church, but for the most part, there's a lot of negative things said about the church. And so it is grappling and will continue to grapple with that. And the genie's out of the bottle, it's not going to be able to put it back in. There's a lot of issues there. But for me, just getting to the point here, some of the virtues or the qualities based on my personal experience that the church does extraordinarily well at is as follows. It provides a platform for serving others. I don't know of any organization that is so well organized and structured and can mobilize resources and people around a common cause even it's a local cause or a personal cause to help someone move or, you know, feed a family. Or, you know, as we came into Canada, we didn't know anyone, and the ward wrapped their arms around us. And the level of service that we experienced was extraordinary. It really was. And that's been my lifelong experience. The love and the community, the spirit of the community, are other virtues, attributes that the church possesses in abundance, which we've experienced as a family and as individuals over over decades. Other qualities are leadership. You know, joining the church at 16 with very little confidence and very low self-esteem, I could never imagine speaking publicly. I remember the first day at church that they asked me to say a prayer, and I just couldn't say a prayer in a small group of— they called it MIA back then— but I couldn't say a prayer in front of anyone. I had no confidence, and there were people my age and younger who could.. And I remember going to church for the first day, there was a youth speaker and I just couldn't believe there was, you know, I joined at 16, there was a 14-year-old speaking in front of, you know, probably 80 people. It just blew me away. And so I've gone from that, you know, experience of having little or no confidence, not really having any leadership skills, to speaking in front of thousands of people, which has helped me enormously in terms of confidence. Quite frightening at the time, but it's built my confidence and my experience. Has actually developed leadership skills in me, and I've brought those into my professional life. So the type and level of service that the members perform is just extraordinary across the world, on a personal level, on a community level. It really is amazing. Helping Hands program is one example. There's many other examples. The leadership that the church teaches is quite extraordinary. You experience that through lessons and training, etc. I've also delivered training, leadership training material at the state level. The sense of community is absolutely unparalleled. Relationships— I forged incredible relationships, including this one with you. I never would have met you had it not been for the church and many hundreds of other extraordinary lifelong friends I never would have met. And these are friends that have got incredible values of decency and honesty, integrity, who are very hardworking, very smart people, well-educated, just wonderful, wonderful people who are very inspirational, who helped me enormously in my life. I don't think I would have had that anywhere else. So, and the church has reached globally to be able to help and perform all these services. Uh, I, I've actually seen miracles, um, on a very personal level in, in my life and my family's life., but also as we've been instrumental as leaders in helping those in our stake or ward who have been struggling financially, emotionally, we've seen the power of the goodness that the Church can bring into their lives. And these are not small things. These are very, very significant things that have been, in some cases, actually saved lives. So, I kind of highlight some of the qualities and I don't think we talk about them as much, and I don't know any podcasts— to my first point— any podcasts that focus exclusively, entirely on the extraordinary good that the church does across the world.

I know that's a good point, and you highlighted some things that were really interesting because, you know, when I was growing up, I did grow up in the church, and I was called upon to give talks in what they then called Junior Sunday School. I can remember giving a talk about Ammon slicing off lots and lots of arms when I was, what, 9 years old, 10 years old. And I remember being terrified. And the room where I gave the talk was tiny and the number of people in the room was maybe 10 to 15. But that was my first foray into public speaking. And I've had so many different opportunities since then, and the church just sort of trained me to do that and have confidence in doing that as a rite of passage. It didn't even occur to me just how unusual that is for somebody so young to have those kinds of opportunities. But I spoke in sacrament meeting before I hit my teenage years. I, you know, have been involved in all kinds of things that I wouldn't have been involved in had it not been for the church. And it's interesting, as you talk about the kinds of things that the church does personally, you know, I, I knew about that sort of philosophically, but that became very real to me about 10 years ago when my daughter was injured. I have a 26-year-old daughter who at the age of 14— so this was 12 years ago— we went skiing on Valentine's Day of 2011, and, and she went tumbling down the mountain, 300 yards down the mountain while she was skiing, head over heels, and she blacked out., and we think she hit a tree, uh, but she doesn't remember, uh, because she, she ended up getting a, what they called a, a, uh, burst fracture in her spine that impinged on her spinal cord and left her partially paralyzed from the waist down. And this was just a devastating experience for her, obviously, but it was a devastating experience for our entire family. And within minutes, the ward was rallying to figure out a way to help us. Our bishop came and visited us in the hospital, gave us blessings while we were in the hospital waiting for our daughter while she was in surgery. When we got home, they had already— the entire ward had descended on our house, cleaned our house, fixed our house. They repainted her bedroom. We had a construction guy in our ward who installed railings in our— so to make our house more handicapped accessible. And we had more lasagna than we knew what to do with because we just had all this food being brought in to help us. I mean, just on the drop of a hat, the church was able to sort of organize that and do that. And the Church, for all of its flaws and problems on a macro level, on a micro level, on a ward level, on a community level, I don't know of an organization that is more effective at blessing people's lives than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And the confidence now that I have that if anything terrible were to happen to to our family again, uh, I know that the church would be on our doorstep, uh, that same day. And I think that's the experience of people worldwide throughout the church. You know, we live in an area where there are so many church members that maybe that's not as impressive as areas where church members are, are sparse on the ground. But growing up in Southern California, where we had fewer church members in our immediate area, you would still see the church spring into action at a moment's notice. And I really think that's what the church does best. We do community very, very well. And I'm a little disturbed that part of that is going away. You know, as we've been focused on what the church now talks about as a home-focused church, supported church, home-centered, church-supported. We seem to be dismantling some of that apparatus and that sense of community that was such a big deal for me growing up. We don't have the kinds of road shows and, and Boy Scouts and all the kinds of programs and things that build that kind of community. And I'm a little nervous that the future of the church isn't going to be nearly as effective at that as the past has been. Am I too overly concerned, or is that something you see as well?

I'm out of the church, as you know, so I don't see— I don't know about that, frankly. I, you know, that when we left, it went from, you know, day in terms of, you know, support, love, and service. It was basically the, the whole Reach Out experience was switched off literally overnight. So, you know, that, that was sad. It was a sudden and immediate wide-scale loss of, of community that was very, very painful for us. And since being out the church, I can't speak to that definitively. I do hear that the church's message now is a more home-centered worship experience. I don't know if that translates into less community involvement, less community spirit. I hope it doesn't. To your point, I think that's one of the church's greatest attributes is its ability for its members, who are extraordinary people, let's face it, who are kind and loving, who are motivated through love mostly, and not because they have to. I think a lot of members, or they serve because they do care, they do love. And that's been my experience prior to leaving the church. But I hope it retains that quality because it's— there's no organization. And I'm out the church and I deal with different organizations and we go to— we have been to another church couple of churches over Christmas where we have felt some community spirit, but not to the extent that we felt, you know, while we're in the church and the level of service and reach out, especially during a crisis or an emergency. We've, we've, we don't know an organization that can match the power and the organization of the church in that sense. Just to going back to my, again, my personal experience being called as a bishop, branch president, on the mission, serving on a stake presidency, but in particular, the bishop's calling, as I was called at that time, the stake president said, Ian, the bishop's calling puts you into the lives of the member in a very unique, in a very personal way. And I didn't know what he meant by that. But within a space of days, actually, within a week, I realized that I realized what he meant. You know, I had members wanting to meet with me, and then over a relatively short period of time— and I knew many of these members, I knew them quite well— and they opened up to me some of their personal struggles and issues, which were surprising and shocking in some, in some way. But when I learned about their personal struggle, issues that they struggled with their entire lives, and and at times they, they cried in front of me. Sometimes we cried together. You know, there were difficult moments as they opened up some of the challenges they're experiencing. But being able to, for them to share those things in confidence, strictest confidence, for them to know that that's not going to go anywhere, for them to know that I'm not judging them unkindly. Yes, we make a judgment on how we can help them. But, you know, we don't think less of people because they've got problems or issues.. And for the bishop to have access to the ward and actually at times stake resources to help this individual was incredible. And so I've seen that you can make the final decision. Yes, you have counsel, you can choose to accept or reject the counsel. But at the end of the day, the bishop makes the final decision for his ward. And that was great. On the stake presidency, stake presidents make the final decision for the stake. And again, if that power, if you want to call it power, is in the right hands, it can do extraordinary good. And that happens on an extraordinary scale. For those bishops or stakes who demonstrate poor leadership, or the power goes to the head, or they don't help the member as much or in a way that they could, which is a very, very, in my opinion, very small percentage from my experience. You know, the vast majority of leaders across the church, across the global church, perform extraordinary good on a very personal level in members' lives, you know, from helping someone to feed somebody to looking at where they can get, you know, get work. The church has got an employment program, etc. I remember when I was younger and I handed my notice in for my job regarding me going on a mission, and they were very angry with me that I was going on this crazy mission. And I was actually told to clear my office drawer and leave immediately. I was gone within an hour less. And so I was relying on that extra money, but I found myself out of my job about 2 months before I served my mission. And so the bishop put me to work and I went with the Relief Society president and a counselor to the bishop's storehouse and we'd drive there about half an hour. We'd have all these orders that the bishop had signed off. These, these are members, about 20 members in the ward who were struggling financially. We, we collected food from a storehouse that the church owned, operated in, in Sheffield, in South Yorkshire, in England. And we spend a couple of hours just organizing and packing all these food parcels that were extraordinary, extremely generous. And there was other items that were added to that without, you know, being the request of the family or the member. And so we then drove back and we delivered. This is an all-day, all-weekend event. And so we delivered— well, all-day event, no, say weekend— but we delivered these very large, very generous parcels of food under the direction of the bishop and the Relief Society. And we— I think there's 20 or 30 families that we delivered all these parcels. And I remember knocking on the door and, and, you know, carrying this big parcel of food. And the, the look on, on those members' faces was extraordinary. Often it was quite emotional. There were tears. They were so grateful. And that just really, really had a profound effect on me. This is 2 months before my mission, and I did this every— I think this is a weekly assignment that the bishop gave me because I was out of work. You know, what am I going to do? I'm not going to apply for another job. I think I did some part-time work just to compensate for that 2 months' lack of salary. I think they still owe me for that 2 months. But, and so I've seen firsthand the physical, emotional response and the goodness that people have felt because the church, how it's organized, how it's structured, the motivation of its members to be able to reach out and to be able to help these families in a very, very profound way, in a way that actually is quite miraculous, and in a way that actually directly blesses the lives of, you know, families and children who are often struggling, who sometimes can't afford or don't know where the next meal's coming from. So I've seen that, and I don't think, you know, I don't think there's enough centralized areas of information which actually talks about all the good things that the church does. And so this, you know, wanting to do this podcast with you on this particular subject has been something that I've thought about for quite some time. So I'm glad that we, you know, we're having this conversation.

Well, this may be a bit of a left turn, but the thing that in listening to what you were talking about, the thing that breaks my heart is your statement that the minute you left the church, all of that was turned off, that the connection was completely severed, that nobody reached out, and that if anything were to happen, uh, none of these people would come to your aid because your name isn't on the records of the church. And it's stunning to me how widespread that kind of a phenomenon is. As I've got sort of waded into the world of church apologetics and dealing with people, I've discovered that there is a huge wellspring of decent, wonderful people who, for whatever reason, no longer find themselves within the boundaries of the church. Maybe they've made mistakes in their life. Maybe they've gone through a faith crisis where they don't feel like they can stay in the church, uh, what, for whatever reason. But all of the goodness, all of the decency, all of the integrity and intelligence that you're talking about, it doesn't vanish the minute your name falls off the church records. You are still Ian Wilkes. The same decent, solid, generous, kind person you were when you were in the church. And yet, what— for whatever reason, that kind of demarcation sets a boundary for too many church members where they say, okay, my compassion and my love only extends to those who are within the boundaries of the church. And that desperately needs to change. And there's no reason for it. And I was so encouraged at this most recent conference. I don't know if you paid any attention to General Conference this time around, but I, sitting in the choir loft, I listened to every session, at least every session that I was there. I was only there for 3 sessions. Another choir sing for other sessions, but that's completely irrelevant. Sunday morning, President Nelson took to the podium, and it was the first time he had spoken in this conference. And usually President Nelson would speak— he did produce the conference on Saturday morning, he'd speak on Saturday afternoon, and then he'd speak on Sunday morning, and he hadn't said anything. And I thought, okay, is he Is he— why is he not saying anything? And when he spoke, he made up for it because that was easily the best talk he has ever given and one of the best talks that anybody has ever given in conference. And it was talking about contention and it was talking about the fact that we are not kind to each other when we interact online, when we interact with with other people. And the one— I was sitting in the choir loft and I audibly said the words, "Thank you," which shocked everybody around me when he said— I can remember the exact quote. He said, "If somebody in your ward gets a divorce, or if a missionary comes home early, or if a teenager doubts his testimony, they do not need your judgment." And I just wanted to stand up and cheer. We need to hear more of those messages. I have never made a covenant to treat people like garbage. I have never made a covenant to sever ties of fellowship and kindness and love with people who leave the church. And these people, people overwhelmingly, the people who leave the church that I've talked to are people who love the church. I mean, you clearly still have a lot of love and respect for the church, but there have been problems and challenges that have required you to, to step away. But all of that goodness that you had and all of the great things the church taught you, those aren't gone. They don't vanish the minute you— the instant you leave the church. And I think there is this huge resource that the church needs to make make use of, of people who are church— I like to call them church adjacent. You know, that they may not be members of the church, they may not ever have been members of the church, but they've had experiences with the church that are positive. And we as a church just— we cut off our arm despite our cut off our nose to spite our face by saying, oh geez, well, they've left the church, off they go, forget it, send them into the wilderness and we'll just focus on our own. I, I, I, I want to believe that President Nelson's conference talk this time around was a, a turning point and was a sign that Slowly but surely, we're going to change that. I, I desperately have to believe that that can and will change because there are too many wonderful, good, decent people in this church for us to, to not recognize that how we deal with those who leave is really kind of lousy and really needs to change. It— I mean, from your perspective, what would you like to see from your friends, or your former friends? And I hate to even describe them as former friends, but the people that you knew and that you were sharing this fellowship with when you were in the church and when you were in a stake presidency, What would you like them to do now? If they knocked on your door and said, "We've been terrible to you, we'd love to be your friend again, whether or not you're a member of the church," would that be something you would welcome?

Of course. It's a great question. All we ever want, all we ever thought we had was something that we've had or felt we had over decades. Was friendships, extraordinary friendships, friendships forged out of love and service and kindness and being there for each other, you know, being consistent, a real friend in the true sense of the meaning. I didn't listen to President Nelson's talk. You and I have chatted about that when we were together in Salt Lake recently, in person. I really enjoyed catching up with you in person. I've heard about President Nelson's talk. I hope it translates soon across the rank and files of the Church. You know, for over 35 years, myself, my family, I've been the recipients of extraordinary good by being part of the Church, you know, serving and being served and being supported. It's been a source of just wonderful joy. And that has come through relationships that we value, lifelong relations that we value extraordinarily. And so, and then again, when you're in a calling or a leadership calling where it puts you into the lives, especially as a bishop or a state president or a member of the state presidency, it puts you in members' lives in a very personal way. Way. If you're an auxiliary leader, you really don't get into the lives of those that you serve with like a bishop can. You know, the bishop hears things, sees things, feels things, and experiences things in a way that very few callings allow. So you get very, very close. So in, in, in the wards that I've served, in the stake that I've served, where I felt, or we felt as a family, that we've got lifelong relationships that will never change. Imagine, if you will, the pain and shock, a significant pain and shock, certainly for me, when those relationships turn out, or it appears to turn out to be conditional on, you know, our activity. And so that, that was an absolute shock. And I'll get to your question in a second. But we went literally from night and day from being part of a community to being ostracized and being literally cut out, you know, people disconnecting on Facebook and disconnecting in other ways, hearing very negative comments about me and my family, very painful things, even referenced in a couple of talks as an example of somebody who's fallen from a great height. That's what I heard. You know, very, very painful, something that I struggled with for a number of months. But during that time, Jim, I wanted to find out why we could go from this, what we thought was extraordinary closeness that was very profound for us and very meaningful for us, to 98% disconnection, I would say, within days. And so I've, as I've asked questions, I've been told why this is, why this has happened this way. And here's what I've been told by a number of people that do keep in touch with us. That have heard from Asteca Ward, we know why they don't want anything to do with us. And it's because one is because I've resigned. Because I've resigned, I'm no longer— they don't see me as a prospect for reactivation, and they see me as a lost soul. So again, I'm just sharing with you what I've heard as to why we've been, you know, why we've been cut off. So when you resign, you are no longer a candidate for reactivation. I even had somebody say to me, Ian, if you know, what's your status of the church, the status of the church? Jokingly said, if you're less active, we'll still pray for you. If you're not, then we might not. They said in a joking way, but there was some— there's an old saying, isn't there? There's, you know, oft truth spoken in jest. And I think that is the truth. I think if you resigned, then you're not on the roster or you're not on the list of reactivation. Essentially, there's no hope for you because you resigned. You are in the hands of Satan. You resigned. You've taken your family out of the church. Another reason is resources. You know, they don't spend the resources. They don't spend resources on those who are less active because they can come back and receive the fullness of the blessings, the temple, the priest, et cetera. Third, By resigning, I've disconnected myself from the priesthood blessings, from the temple blessings, and therefore I'm now an apostate because I've rejected the church. And the other point I was told was my resignation and now leaving the church as a family has essentially translated into the members locally feeling that we've rejected them by going inactive, by resigning. We have said, or this is how it's interpreted, we've sent a message to say, look, we want nothing to do with you, which is not, not the case. And, and they've interpreted this as, as, um, that, um, we rejected them personally, which we haven't. Of course, we've not rejected them. So, so in my research and my conversations These are the reasons why I've been told why our farm has been cut off. To get to your question, if someone knocked on the door randomly, you know, and just, you know, what would be my expectations? It would be just to be a friend, just be a friend to us. We've not changed. We're still the same. We still hold, you know, to some of the, you know, many of the values, even some of the basic beliefs. Not all of them. You know, our thoughts and views on certain things have changed. In some cases quite significantly. But as people, we've not turned evil. We're not worshiping Goats, anything like that, or doing strange things. We're still good people. We still reach out to the community. I think one of the most painful things, Jim, that happened was to learn that we were no longer part of the food drive. I was the chairman of the food drive. I actually launched the food drive program, you know, years ago. That was my assignment as a council on the state presidency. That was my job. And, uh, wonderful experience and was successful with a team of people. Of course, it was all a team effort, and we launched an extraordinary food drive that continues to this day. It's one of the most successful food drives across British Columbia, certainly in, in our area. I wasn't responsible for British Columbia, but certainly in my area. And, uh, it's been wonderful. And we've— we're now no longer part of that, uh, we don't get invited to that. Um, and it's sad that we, we're not part of a community event that goes around and organizes and collects food for the most needy in our community, that, that even that's been disconnected. So all we would expect is just to be a friend, just to keep us involved from a community perspective. Don't make awful comments about us in a talk. Don't tell— talk about me that I'm a failed father, or I've led my family astray, or, you know, where I'm in league with Lucifer, or, you know, destructive father or parent, because that's extremely painful. And, and, you know, completely— you know, my kids, when they heard about that, was just, uh, absolutely— that's what sent them out the church, those negative things about myself and our family were just what was why they— the rest of them left. So just be a friend. Don't judge us. Be kind. Don't try to convert us back. Don't make us a project. I've heard that our family name is, uh, is, is, um, a special project. Don't make us a special project. And if we don't want to come out or don't want to get reactivated, just respect that. But just be our friend for the sake of being friends. And please keep us involved in the, um, in the food drive. I don't think that's too much to ask, but sadly, you know, the relationships have severed. The people that have severed the relationships, I don't— not anymore. I was quite hurt. I still am in some ways. It'd be inaccurate to say I'm not hurt, but I still love them, and I think they still care for us in some way. I don't feel as bad as I used to. About these individuals. I think they're wonderful people. I mean, I know them and they do extraordinarily good. And so I've moved past the hurt stage to— and through the sadness stage, through to feeling stronger and resolved. And I've made new friends now. So, you know, they cut us off and we, you know, we then make new friends in the community and we've got those friendships now that are not reliant or conditional on us activity going to any particular religion, that we're friends because they like us or they love us or they want to be our friend because it's something that we have those personal interests. So friendship, just be a friend. That would be my answer to your question.

Oh, the one thing that you said that I hadn't thought about that I think is kind of interesting and I want to explore a little bit is people interpret your decision to leave as a personal rejection of them. And that's interesting. And I thought, okay, that may even be the, the one justifiable— justifiable is the wrong word— the one understandable reason why people might not connect with you is that they may feel that you have rejected them. And I thought, geez, I know so many people who have left the church. I have so many good friends who have left the church. And people are seeing this on a rather widespread scale because if the statistics are to be believed, anywhere between 60 and 80% of Generation Z leave the church before they're 18 years old. I mean, we are seeing lots and lots of people leaving the church. I, I, the official statistics don't tell that story, but the, the, the anecdotal experience of most members of the church is that people now know friends and members of their own family who are leaving. And that's happening to a large degree. People are going through faith crises. People are, are getting frustrated with the church, or they're having a problem with church history or whatever else it is. But the number of people who are leaving the church, in my experience, from what I can see, is in fact accelerating. And it doesn't occur to me to take that personally. I mean, I would never think, oh geez, so, you know, Ian left the church, Ian's rejecting me. That wouldn't make any sense to me to think of it in those terms. And, and, but I can see how people might think of that in those terms, particularly people in your neighborhood, people in your area, people that you've worked with and that you've had, you know, as a leader, you've had this kind of one-on-one experience with so many of them. And they— I can imagine them looking at that and saying, well, geez, didn't that mean anything to him? You know, I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that that's something I hadn't considered. And I'm wondering if maybe there is something there that we need to address because we need to get to a point where friendship is not conditional upon church membership and where friendship can endure when church membership does not. You need— people need to do that in families. People need to do that in marriages. I see the experience of mixed faith marriages. You have people that get married and both of them were faithful and they get married in the temple, and then one of them goes through a faith crisis and decides they just can't believe anymore, but they don't want to leave the marriage. And yet that happens. You know, I, I'm seeing that. I don't, I don't have permission to say who I'm seeing that in. But I see that, for instance, my sister was telling me the other day, oh, this person who you did this with, oh, that's his new wife because his first wife left the church, so he had to divorce her. And I went, no, he didn't. He didn't have to divorce her. He chose to divorce her. But if a marriage is based solely upon and is only contingent upon membership in the church, that just breaks my heart. That makes me very, very sad. If my wife were to leave the church, I would not leave my wife. I, you know, so, so I don't know. That's, that's very difficult. But to me, I think, you know, we've highlighted so many of the things the church does well and the church continues to do things well and the church The members of the Church, by and large, are good, decent, wonderful people. And good, decent, wonderful people should know better than to cut other good, decent, wonderful people out of their lives just because they're not members of the Church. I mean, that strikes me as so obvious that it doesn't need to be said, and yet it needs to be said. Over and over and over again. And online, you know, I wander into Twitter wars and it is stunning to me that the members of the church online are not only the worst members of the church, but they're some of the worst people. I mean, people who go online and anonymously decide that they're going to be the champions for the church, all they do is dump on other people. And I've had, you know, I've had wild, weird pictures of me posted because— and I'm a member of the church, I'm a member of the Tabernacle Choir, I'm a believing member of the church. I remember once there was a guy who posted a— there were 4 pictures and there was a picture of David O. McKay and a picture of Heber J. Grant and a picture of my father, who was a senator from Utah. And then there was a picture of me that they found on Facebook with my hair all wild, and I'd posted it for fun, but I look ridiculous. And they said, you know, what's wrong with this? Look how far this guy has fallen. And I thought, sheesh, you spent at least an hour on that. You hate me enough that you feel like you have to mock me and you won't even tell me your real name. You know, they hide behind these fake names and they post this garbage about me online. And this happens on a regular basis. And there are a number of people this happens to who are in the church, not even who are out of the church. And I just, I don't understand it. I don't understand, uh, with all of the wonderful things and the wonderful people that the church produces. Why we can't get this right, why we can't fix this problem.

I think I have a couple of answers to that. I listened intently to what you said. I've got something that I think might, may answer that. But I think you are, for some, you're an anomaly. They don't know how to deal with you. You're conventional, traditional in some ways to the church, right? And and attractive to the more conservative elements of the membership. But in other ways, on other opinions and views that you've got, you are more liberal, you're more open, and again become less attractive, less palatable to that more conservative, hardcore, traditional, conventional thinking. So you appeal to, I think as we all do in some ways, you're more public, publicly well-known than I am, but, and so you connect with a much larger audience. So depending on the particular topic, you will be accepted by the hardcore, maybe, you know, more conventional members, but on other things that where you think more liberally, then you probably fall out of favor. And I think that's the case with me and with lots of people that leave the church. And this is to my point, So when we resign or leave the church, as I've been told locally, that has been interpreted locally as a rejection of not just them personally. Let me get to the point, be more specific here, is that what that means to, to the members or to the member is that because an individual has resigned or left, they no longer subscribe to the values or the doctrines in particular the values, as in my case. And so they automatically think, or many of them think, that he rejected the church, rejected the doctrine, rejected the values, therefore doesn't have the same values that we do. He's walked away from them, abandoned them. Therefore, you look at the teachings, and this is the point I'm making, if you look at the doctrine, the teachings, and in many, many talks, Jim, where, where General Authorities have said we don't— and I, I wish I could remember the specific examples. I think it's really important to remember these examples where General Authorities said that we shouldn't mix or associate with those who have left the Church or rejected the Church or gone apostate. I can't remember the specific talks. I think it was Elder Oaks or Elder Holland. I can't remember. It's one of the General Authorities. It's been a number of talks like this, and we should look into them. And so the members, local members here, some of them have been told not to mix with us, not to associate with us because we no longer believe the doctrine or all the doctrine. No, we no longer subscribe to the common values and the virtues that the church subscribes to, which is untrue. That's completely false. And so they make a connection, there's a personal connection, relationship between the individual and what they believe. And so if they don't believe the same stuff or accept everything, you know, and they've walked off the covenant path and reject some of the teachings or the history, et cetera, they're not worth having a relationship with because they don't have the same values. And they're taught not to associate with people that don't have the same values.

Well, I think you have something there with regard to the idea that you're dangerous. You know, you are, you are a contagion. You are somebody that may spread doubt. It's not that you're going to pull them out of the church. It's that, oh gosh, if Ian Wilkes can leave. Yeah. And I know Ian Wilkes is bright and I know Ian Wilkes is compassionate and kind. I think people are scared and are terrified to some degree that, okay, well, geez, if Ian can leave, maybe I can leave, and I don't want to go anywhere near that. And it isn't necessarily I don't want to go anywhere near Ian. It's I don't want to go anywhere where I'm going to be asked to consider challenging, difficult questions about the church. I mean, the fact that missionaries, yes, we were counseled to drop people who weren't serious and drop members who weren't going to be reactivated, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's less problematic than what we do when we get home. I mean, when you're a missionary, you're on a very specific, you have very limited resources, you have very limited time, and you're in this 2-year bubble where, yeah, your goal is to get out there and find as many people who will join the church as possible. But when you get home and you're building a community and building a life, you know, I remember one ward mission leader, we were explaining this really goofy program that had come down where you go and go to a gas station or go to someplace and just ambush somebody and give them a Book of Mormon. And he, I remember him saying to me, hey, we have to live here. You know, we're going to be here after you're gone. You're here for a few months. We have to live here. And, you know, I think the standard should be very different when you're living somewhere and someone is part of the community and you're going to be living near them and around them to just drop them when they take action that you don't like. I think that's a real problem. But the other problem that you're highlighting is that there is a real fear among leaders and among members of anything that could raise difficult questions and, and create difficult challenges. And your existence raises difficult questions for people. They look at you and they say, oh gosh, geez, if Ian Wilkes can doubt, then maybe I can too. And the other thing that happens is that they have to demonize you to justify themselves. They have to say, no, there's no way Ian Wilkes is miserable now. His life has gone off the rails. He can't be happy because he's not in the church, because the church is the only way to be happy. And I, you know, I've heard that from the pulpit. I heard that most recently from Elder Bednar at Sister Banks' funeral. That was Elder Banks— or Elder Bednar was there and spoke, and that was his message. His message was, you cannot be happy if you are not in the church. And that's simply not true. It's simply not true. And I think it terrifies people to come face to face with the reality that there are happy, good, decent people who have left the church and have been able to find happiness. Some find greater happiness outside the church, and it sort of pulls the rug out from under their faith. Because their faith is in the idea that this is the only true church and it's the only true way to be happy. And it's the only— I mean, it, it eliminates the exclusivity. It makes them feel less special. And I think that's a huge problem. This is really interesting because I hadn't considered this as extensively until I listened to what you were saying with regard to your experience. I'm hopeful that this podcast can be the beginning of a conversation where people address that because it's, you know, Eldon Eyring once said, you don't have to believe anything in this church that isn't true. And I cling to that when goofy things are said and hurtful things are said. That are simply not true. I hope that President Nelson's message about contention and about judgment, I hope that continues to grow. I hope we move in that direction. I see too much evidence that we're not moving in that direction, or at least not moving as quickly as I would like. And so I hope that, that we can get there. Our time is short here for this episode.

Just have a couple of quick comments real quick here. I know we come into the end there. I think the last few minutes has been extremely significant in the way you have articulated and summarized one of the major issues in a particular area that we're talking about. And so I have a— it brings me to a question. I've been out now for 7 years, 7 and a half years. How many times, how many people rather have asked me, why have I left? Do you think?

My guess is if there are any, it's in the single digits, but I'm guessing is zero.

Zero. So not one person has asked Ian, why did you leave? Not one person. We're actually happier. We're less judgmental as well. We don't have, you know, some of the baggage, all the doctrines that you have to navigate and try to, you know, work through like gymnastics, you know, trying to, you know, make sense of things that don't make sense. And so I think you've summarized extremely well, um, and I'm so glad that we were able to have this conversation. We remain, uh, mostly positive towards the church, cannot, will not forget the extraordinary goodness that the church has done in our lives on a personal level. And the extraordinary good that the church has done over the years to millions of people in the church and out the church, and the extraordinary good that the church continues to deliver to people's lives, again, in and out the church. And that will never change. You know, I said at the beginning that the church saved my life. It did on so many levels. The decision to join the church at the time was undoubtedly the best decision I ever made. And my family have made, but the decision to leave also has been equally the best decision that we have made as well. So again, the church is a force of good mostly, and if it can improve in the areas that it knows it should, then I think the church will be even better for sure.

Well, I'll let that be the last word. I think that that's a great way to sum this up. And for those of you listening, please make sure to like us and to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, we'll see you on Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.