Where Will You Go?

A point of order before we begin the podcast today. The adjective I used to describe Ian was transcontinental, and it's driving me crazy because transcontinental means crossing a continent, and what I meant was intercontinental, that he is now on another continent. So I want to put that correction out even before the music begins. Let's go. Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the transcontinental Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I am currently transcontinental. I'm, uh, we're doing this, I'm in the UK, you're in Utah. I'm indeed transcontinental. That's a great word.

Well, that's, you know, timely. You're usually in Canada, but that is considered the same continent as the one that I am on. But you have now crossed the pond and you are in your old stomping grounds, are you not? I am.

I'm actually in Halifax, Yorkshire, in West Yorkshire, which is my tribe, my people.

Very nice. And then do they part the way and roll out the red carpet as you walk down the street?

Not quite, no. They're pretty good at bringing me down to earth. Certainly my non-member friends from high school and college are very blunt, very colorful in the language, and they're always telling me to get rid of my ridiculous North American twang accent that I've got. So within minutes I'm speaking broad Yorkshire, or will be shortly. So yeah, they're pretty down to earth, the Yorkshire folk. So yeah, no, we're happy.

It's very fun to hear about the places you go, which is a segue into what we're going to discuss here. We're going to call to mind a conference talk from Elder M. Russell Ballard. We've discussed this, at least in pieces, in various podcasts, but we kind of thought it would be a good idea to sort of focus on this talk itself. I have found online a— this is a talk that was given in the October 2016 General Conference by Elder M. Russell Ballard.— and I found online a 1-minute 30-second summary of the talk, and the title is "Where Will You Go?" Where will you go to find others who share your beliefs in personal, loving Heavenly Parents?

Where will you go to be taught about a Savior who is your best friend and who suffered not only for your sins but who also suffered pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind. Where will you go to learn more about Heavenly Father's plan? Where will you go to find a detailed, inspired Church organization? Where will you go to find living prophets and apostles? Where will you go to find people who live by a prescribed set of values and standards that you share? And where will you go to experience the joy that comes through the saving ordinances and covenants of the temple? If you choose to become inactive or to leave The Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where will you go? What will you do?

Where will you go What will you do? And those words have been used a number of times since this has been given. And it's interesting when you hear the whole talk and how Elder Ballard is framing this. He lists all of the things that you lose when you leave. It calls to mind Brad Wilcox. You know, you know, you know Brad Wilcox?

I do.

He's kind of become a bigger thing since you've left. But he famously gave that fireside that he got in trouble for where he talked about race and the priesthood. But in that fireside, he also talked about the fact that when you leave The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you lose everything. I hope you realize that if you walk away from this religion, you lose everything. You lose everything. Everything that truly matters most. That's a direct quote. And Elder Ballard is sort of trying to frame it that way too, that, okay, where are you going to go? Because we're the church that has all of these wonderful things that he, that he lists. And It calls to mind to me as well an article I remember reading by Jana Reese, who is a member of the church and is also a, a columnist for the Religion News Service and writes frequently about the church. And she talked about the fact that missionaries are going out and offering a message that doesn't resonate, that they're asking a question to which nobody is looking for the answer. And the question is, where will you go? Which— or essentially, which church is true? You know, we are the true church. As Elder Ballard lists all the reasons why leaving the church is going to be such a terrible thing, he lists, well, where are you going to find a church that's as good as this one? Where are you going to find a church that has this kind of community? And where are you going to find a church that has the temple ordinances? And where are you going to find a church that has the authority? And the fact of the matter is that most people aren't asking which is the true church. The question people ask, if they're asking a question at all, is, why do I need a church at all? Millennials and Generation Z The rising generation is not wired to think, okay, well, I've got to find the true church. I've got to find the best church that is out there. I had a conversation at one point with a General Authority. I won't mention his name because it was an unpleasant conversation. I mean, it wasn't necessarily hostile, but it was It was— he was just so dismissive of any reasons why anyone would leave the church and why anyone would be in faith crisis. And I remember one of the things he says, "Well, when you leave, good luck finding a better church than this one because we spoil you for any other church." And I thought, "Okay, buddy, you don't seem to understand that when people leave, They're not leaving to find a better church than this one. They are leaving organized religion altogether. All of the statistics about people who leave demonstrate that people who leave The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't go church shopping. They don't go to find a better church. And if they were going church shopping, then perhaps Elder Ballard and Elder Wilcox and this particular General Authority, perhaps that counsel would resonate because you're right. I think if you're— I think they're right in that if what you want is a hierarchical religious experience in a, in an organized faith, I don't think you're going to find anybody who does it better than, than we do. I think that's probably true. What they don't seem to realize is that so many people don't want that anymore. They don't want any kind of it. They leave and they go. I mean, they're— they don't go to another church. They just go to worship God if they continue to believe in God. But they go to worship or to believe or have spiritual faith on their own terms without Elder Ballard or Elder Wilcox or anybody else's mediation or intervention. I mean, has that been your experience? Is that what you've seen?

Yes, it is. You, for me, you've described a lot of my experience right there. I've wanted to talk about this, Jim, for quite some time. We've referenced this talk and that quote and those tone of Elder Bennett's phrase there in his talk frequently or often across the podcast. We've never had a, don't think, a dedicated conversation on this. And it's something where I have some very strong thoughts and feelings on this. Right now, you and I are doing this podcast. You're in Utah, I'm in Yorkshire in England. And every year I try to get back home here to see family, friends, And every time I come, and few people will know, will know this, I do an annual pilgrimage to my street and village where I was raised. All of those mixed experiences growing up in Airedale, Castleford, on Graham Drive, Kershaw Avenue, Mills Grove, all these streets and roads in this rough council estate, all those memories. And I come back because I have, uh, mixed experiences. But it reminds me, and the main reason why I come back, it reminds me of where I came from. So last night, alone— sometimes, you know, family, friends accompany me— but last night I went back to my street where I was, where I was raised, where I grew up. And, uh, the place hasn't changed. It's still as, um, rough. I think that's an appropriate word to use. Council estate, um, in a working class, uh, a lot of poverty there. And it reminds me that the house I grew up on and the street reminds me of where I came from. And last night, I, as I do every year, it conjures up different emotions. And one of the most important experiences I had, or significant experiences, is when I was walking up that street having been thrown out at the age of 16 and told to leave the home because I joined the Mormon faith. And my mother shouting at me, 'Go, let your effing Mormons look after you.' And I'm walking up the street there with my dogs, my dog Shep, and a plastic bag with very few things and a few coins in my hand to catch a bus ride. And I remember feeling fear and trembling and scared and no idea where I was going to stay that night. And, you know, where was I going to go? And, and then, and then afterwards, as you know, within a few days, uh, the church took me in. The Bishop of the Wakefield Ward had a place to stay. They took me in. The church put his arms around me, and for 35, 37 years, the church was extraordinary and brought me into, uh, that faith, strengthened me and taught me and had the values that I, uh, still subscribe to today. And completely transformed my life. So at that point, that particular juncture in my life, the church— excuse me, and I've mentioned we discussed this before— rescued me from who knows what's going to happen. And I will be forever deeply grateful for that. And so I served, you know, my entire life in the church with you on a mission, you know, served different callings, put all heart and soul into— I'm the kind of person that is all or nothing. If my If my heart and mind is not there in it, I'm just not in it at all. And you can see it's evident on my face, my accent, my behavior. I'm just not in it. It's like I'm an all-or-nothing kind of guy. That comes with pros and cons. But when I'm in it, I am in it hook, line, and sinker. And I was completely immersed and entrenched in the church and in the gospel completely. Um, and so over the years, you know, you serve and you get a great deal of reward and satisfaction, a great deal of happiness, and, uh, enormous benefit by serving in the church. You know, you just serve others. Um, we've said earlier, previously on other podcasts, there's a distinction between the church, the organization, and the gospel. And for me, it was— the church was the vehicle in order to live the gospel. And I've always felt and thought until the last few years that you couldn't have, um, you'd have to— you couldn't have one without the other. That in order to live the gospel and, and experience the happiness that comes from living the gospel. And what I mean by the gospel is love, kindness, generosity, and service, and repentance and forgiveness— those universal principles that are not unique to the church, or any church, by the way. Church does not have a monopoly ownership on those principles. Those are universal principles available to everybody, religious and non-religious, um, in their lives. And then in contrast, you've got a very prescribed, a very specific and distinct and unique set of rules and circumstances that the church has in terms of its organization structure. And I found the fit between the gospel and the church structure absolutely fantastic for my experience. It was a tremendous experience. But as I got into the church and discovered major issues, as you know, years ago, and came to the conclusion that many of the original claims and church claims and doctrines and histories and some of the policies were either incorrect or partly correct or completely false in some cases. And some of the policies were harmful and some even dangerous. I came to the conclusion that the church wasn't safe for me or my family, for my mental health, and for my future prosperity and happiness, and certainly didn't align with the values that Elder Ballard talks about. And I'm talking about values of integrity, honesty, and transparency, and admitting when we hadn't made— we made a mistake and we got things wrong, and being able to ask questions and having that complete openness and transparency. Remember I said earlier, I'm in it completely with all the honesty, integrity, my whole heart and soul, every fiber of my being, as we say at Tessa Meeting, or I'm not. And as soon as it started to unravel for me, I couldn't— I wasn't in it anymore. And as I said earlier, I'm either in it or out, and I'm not a halfway kind of guy. I'm not like a lukewarm kind of guy. My body, my mind, my psychology won't allow me to live something, subscribe something, or follow something if I know in my heart it's not right. I just physically making me ill. So I made the decision to leave. And, and that principle of that concept Elder Ballard talks about that, look, if you leave the church, you will lose everything that Elder Brad Wilcox have said. And you won't be happy. And as Elder Ballard said, you won't have the access to all these inspiration and the prophets, etc. And you'll lose your friendship with Jesus Christ. All that was communicated to me, and all that went through my mind as I was struggling in my own faith crisis and trying to weigh things up. First, I'm gonna realize there was major problems. Do I stay? Do I go? My whole body, my whole spirit was saying, leave. I just, in order to maintain my integrity and my authenticity and my individuality, and again, integrity underlined, I could not stay, and I was terrified or scared of the consequences and the cost, but I knew that I had to be true to myself and to be true to the truth. And that's the principle my mother taught me. So I left, as you know, and what happened was quite extraordinary. So contrary to Elder Ballard's, um, uh, teaching in part, I think he's been right on some things. For example, I lost an entire community. When I left, the stake and the ward completely wiped their hands of me. They turned their backs and rejected me and spoke inappropriately and wrongfully during a talk or a couple of talks that I heard. The comments that was getting back, that was coming back to me after I'd left, was that I had misled my family that I had— was following the dictates of the adversary, following the evil spirit, that I was in league with Lucifer, that I'd made a terrible mistake. And because I'd served at such high levels like state president, bishop, then I would be held more accountable than a regular rank and file member that would leave. That was very clear in the information that I got back, that I had fallen from this height and God was displeased. The Spirit would withdraw. And even quoting scriptures about me, that wickedness was never happiness, that I would never find happiness. I'd taken my family out of the church, and the whole— that whole responsibility was on me. And I would pay a very, very heavy price in this life and in the next life, and that I would not be happy or obtain happiness, or any happiness I'd experienced through the church would be lost and not recovered until I returned, repented and returned. And certainly the next life that I would not have eternal life and I would not specifically not be with my family or my loved ones. And that there's a special place, um, in purgatory or hell, some room that I would be locked in because, you know, I'd known the truth, experienced all this light and knowledge and turned away from it. And those people that do that, uh, are far worse than if they'd known the gospel. So all this was coming back through people, friends who were going to church, and comments that were, you know, gossip that was being discussed about me. But what I found was completely opposite. I was happier, I had more time, made new friends. Yes, I've lost a community overnight. They completely turned the back. Sadly, that broke my heart. I, I, um, shed tears over that. I found that very um, hurtful. But I rediscovered myself and I found new friends, a new life. Was less judgmental and I was more focused on the gospel, not the church or the programs or the prescriptive lifestyle and be told what to do and everything. It was the principles of the gospel I focused on. And, and so I became less religious, if you like, and more spiritual. So when I heard that talk by Elder Ballard, and in particular the tone of how he, uh, spoke those words, you know, where will you go, what will you do, you know, back then a few years ago when I was at the beginning of my crisis, uh, faith crisis, I, I, that would have, you know, that would have caused me some doubt. I still would have made the decision, but it would have made me feel more doubtful. But in hindsight, looking back, um, the decision to leave the church— similar to joining the church— decision to leave the church has been the best decision I've made in my life. And I know where I am, I know what I'm doing, my life is intact. I've not gone off the rails, I'm not a drunkard, I'm not a womanizer, I'm not doing things that the church would think would be inappropriate. Um, I don't drink, I I live a pretty clean lifestyle because I choose to, and I'm actually happier, a lot happier out of the church. But I still live the principles of the gospel that are universal. So where will I go? Well, I am in a great place. What will I do? Well, I do great things with my family and the community, and without reward, and I contribute the best way I can. I enjoy my work. My family, friends, and I do what I can to uplift them and, and, um, invest in their lives and put others before me. So yes, you can be happy. Elder Ballard doesn't cover that in his talk, didn't talk about the benefits or any benefits or any advantages for leaving the church. There's no good thing from that talk, and Elder Wilcox's talk, could possibly come from anyone leaving the church. And that I've learned myself, my own experience is completely false.

Well, uh, I— you're not the only person to say that. I mean, you find that online. I find that in conversations with other people who have left. That seems to be sort of a universal thing. And what has developed particularly online is this sort of, uh, these church defenders who, in order to be able to perpetuate the narrative that, that they are trying to defend, uh, they have to prove that you're lying. They have to prove that you are actually miserable, you are secretly miserable, And you are, you are lying. You are telling everybody listening to this podcast whatever Satan has told you to tell them. But clearly, clearly, deep down in your heart, you are, you are absolutely miserable. Is that true?

No, I'm a lot happier. I was miserable when I was going to church. I was miserable when I found all these issues. I was miserable when I had questions and couldn't ask the questions. I was miserable when I couldn't be myself. I was miserable when I didn't get any answer to the questions. I was told to be a better example because I was the leader of the church. I was miserable when it, when it was affecting my mental health. I was, I was very upset, sad, and miserable, um, when I was going through that experience with all those questions and doubts. And I was miserable when there was no one there interested or willing to help me. That's when I was miserable. Now I don't have to jump through those hoops or play mental gymnastics. If it doesn't make sense, as it didn't back then, it doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense. You know, those things, those doctrines, those things that are inaccurate about the church, you know, those claims that are not accurate or reliable, which didn't make sense to me having— and I researched them in detail. They didn't make sense because they didn't make sense and they weren't because they were inaccurate. Now life's much easier, makes more sense. Those things that were wrong, you know, or claims that were made that are false, are false. And that makes sense to me. So yeah, I was miserable back then and, and not now before I knew about the issues. So before I discovered those issues, the problems like Joe Smith, the Book of Mormon and historical issues. And there's many, many issues that I researched. Before I was aware of those issues, I was living in ignorance. I didn't know about them, therefore I didn't ask about them. And anything that was contrary to the church, you know, I, I was the individual there that would toe the line. And anyone that would deviate, um, any sign of any deviation, any comments or questions, I'd be the one to say, look, you're listening to, you know, wrong information or misinformation. You can get back to the stay in the lane with the gospel. You know, that's where the safety and security lies, is staying in the, the lane, the right lane with the gospel. And so I was living, uh, felt I was happy. It was like that movie The Matrix, which one of my favorite movies, where you think you're in reality and you think everything around you is right and proper and you don't question it because it all seems right. And it turns out, uh,, not to be like The Truman Show, right? Is in this, uh, on the stage and all these actors are playing their parts. And, uh, you know, during the movie he learns that he's part of a show, uh, since he was, uh, since he was born. He really learns that it's not real, that it's just a facade, just like a front, like a Hollywood set. And I felt like I was living in a Hollywood set where you couldn't talk about the issues and get into the stuff.. And it was just a scaffolding that was just collapsed all around me. It was just like a frontal Hollywood movie set and it was just, wasn't real. And when I, so I was kind of happy in ignorance without the knowledge, became knowledgeable. It's like Adam and Eve, right? Eat the apple and become knowledgeable and you see all the, you know, the pros and cons. And then I, my eyes were opened, I could see, and then I had questions and then realized, my gosh, that will let you know What is in front of me is not what, what it appears, or there's no substance there, a bit of substance. And what about the church? Not the gospel, except the gospel is universal. And, and then that's the time when I became miserable. And in order to keep my happiness, real happiness, based on facts and truth and honesty, integrity, I had to leave. So now I am happy. I couldn't be happier. I'm not miserable. I know that might disappoint some people out there, and it's not the telling everyone to hear that I've left and I'm miserable. The truth is I'm happy, happier. Are we exempt from problems and challenges in life? No, of course not. We still have problems in life, health. I've had a health scare recently. We lose loved ones and our family friends go through difficult times and financial hardships in and out the church. You still have the same problems. And yes, the church is fantastic at being there for the problems. I want to highlight that, um, you know, we're inside out. We try to get a balance here, and the church service and programming mechanisms are very significant in terms of helping people, helping people. Absolutely. And I want to highlight that because that is something the church does extremely well. And you know as much as I do, the ministry program and support they get from the bishops, etc., can be— and you've experienced this firsthand, as I have— the church can come to your rescue and do miraculous things. And it's really important to acknowledge that. But I think you can get that through your friends and family. You can get that through the church. It's not unique to our church. And so I'm not miserable. I'm happy. I, I, my heart breaks because I miss my friends and I've not got that church community. It's been a big price. And remember, when I got— when I resigned, I got a letter from the church membership, and it said, uh, dear Mr. Wilkes, uh, your name has now been taken off membership records. And underneath, there was no— there was no thank you, no acknowledgment of my time, all the energy, time I put in over the years. Underneath it just said membership records. That was it. That's all they said. And that was extraordinary. All that time and effort to bring me in, keep me in, support me. And, and I benefited a lot, absolutely, you know, all that constant support, all that wonderful, uh, network of friends and, and wonderful experiences, uh, just disappeared overnight. I got this very cold letter saying, yeah, you're no longer a member. That it was basically. So, so anyway, did that— that was— that saddened me, that, that made me sad and upset me. But, you know, Pick myself up, move on. And so I'm not miserable. I am happy and I've found a new lease of life and I couldn't be happier.

Well, it's interesting to me how many people have their faith contingent on the misery of others. I just think anybody that in order to be able to— if, if If the cost of preserving your faith is proving that somebody else is truly miserable when they say that they're happy, that's a cost that I think is too high to pay. That, that is not faith that is grounded in any kind of reality or in any kind of truth. And so many people who are defending the church now have, have taken that route, have decided that's the best way to do it, the best way to prove that our church is great is to tear down the people who leave. And to me, that is such a self-defeating strategy. That doesn't make any sense to me. And you know what does make sense to some degree is Elder Ballard's approach when he lists all of the great things that are in the church, because really, if you're trying to sell something, And we hate to say, you know, Elder Ballard was a used car salesman before he was an apostle. He owned car dealerships. And, you know, he's a salesman essentially professionally. He's passed away. He's no longer a salesman, obviously. But anyway, moving forward, if you want to sell something to somebody, you have two options. You can let them know what the benefits are and try to get them to buy it based on the benefits. Or you can appeal to FOMO. You can appeal to fear of missing out. Here's what you're going to miss if you don't buy this car. Oh boy, you are really going to kick yourself when you realize you could have had this car and whatever else it is. You have the carrot and the stick. You have, you have the positive and the negative. And the positive approach to keeping, keeping people in the church is to demonstrate all of the great benefits and to demonstrate, you know, for me, when I want to talk about the church and how wonderful the church is, I come down to those practical blessings. I come down to let me tell you how immeasurably the church has blessed my life throughout my life. And I always come back to that story about when my daughter was injured, because that's, I think, the most intense moment where I realized just how much good the church is capable of. But frequently, over and over again, it's the negative reinforcement that people use to try to get people to stay in the church. And it's fear. It's fear. It's, it's, oh, if you leave the church, you're going to lose everything. If you leave the church, terrible, dark, awful things are going to happen to you. And that fear was very real for me growing up. The fear of stepping, you know, I grew up in, in a predominantly Jewish area. In Southern California, Calabasas, the land of the Kardashians. And I left before they got there. So I won't cede Calabasas to the Kardashians. I consider it my territory. But regardless, it's a predominantly Jewish area. And so many of my friends were not members of the church, and many of them were active, believing members of synagogues. And there was actually a sort of cultural network of people in the Jewish community from which I was somewhat excluded. I remember my father talking about going to a meeting for our high school debate team, a parents' meeting for the high school debate team. And he said all these people knew each other because they all went to synagogue together. They all went to temple together is how they describe it. And, and he says, but then there was this one woman and she had this lovely English accent, and I thought, oh, okay, so at least there's one other Gentile here. And then she started talking. Well, you know, when I was at temple last week, and she went, I'm, I'm the only Gentile in the room. And, but he saw that community. I saw that community that exists in communities outside of the church and recognized it's very real and very strong. But I was also terrified of stepping away from my community. I was terrified, you know, we're going to go and there's going to be alcohol at this party. Well, I can't go to a party where there's going to be alcohol because, you know, I was just terrified of what might happen if I were there. And I've been told, you know, the devil is just sort of waiting to pounce the minute I cross that line. And so while I think my faith was more reinforced by the positive than the negative, the negative was still very much there and it was a very powerful force. And what I am finding now is that fear just does not work on the rising generation. It just does not work. And I think it's because I, I think there are so many different elements as to why that's the case, but one that I will point to is that I remember in 2008, I no longer lived in California, but I had many relatives who did, and they were all enlisted by the church to campaign against Proposition 8, or campaign for Proposition 8, which was the ballot initiative that limited marriage to a man and a woman, and the church put all of its weight behind it, and a lot of effort for the campaign was coordinated out of church buildings. Announcements were made in sacrament meeting to help mobilize efforts to campaign for Proposition 8, and I had members of my family, uh, standing at on street corners waving signs saying, "Preserve traditional marriage." And that was a very real thing. And the Proposition 8 campaign and the whole traditional marriage campaign was almost all fear-based. It was entirely fear-based. It was, "We're going to lose traditional marriage. We're going to throw society into chaos." You know, you read the Family Proclamation where it talks about, "We warn about the calamities that will befall people and civilizations if we do not heed these principles. And so the idea that gay marriage was going to end civilization was the fear-based thesis that they were teaching from this campaign. Well, they lost. I mean, they won the initiative, Prop 8 passed, but it was quickly overturned by the Supreme Court, and it was the catalyst for overturning all gay marriage restrictions in all 50 states throughout the United States, and it was a stepping stone to making gay marriage legal, which it now is. And now it's codified into law, uh, by a, a bill that the church actually endorsed. The Respect for Marriage Act now makes same-sex marriage legal in all 50 states regardless of any kind of court decision, and the church has now been dragged kicking and screaming into supporting the bill that they said would essentially end civilization as we know it. So, so why am I saying all this? I'm saying all this because I— my children are growing up in a world where they see same-sex marriage as normal, as something that is just a part of the world in which they live, something that isn't— that is And they also see that it hasn't ended civilization, that all of that fear, that all of those warnings— watch out, traditional marriage is going to collapse— traditional marriage is stronger than it's ever been. And divorces are down and teenage pregnancy is down. And traditional marriage— heterosexuality isn't going away. So traditional marriage isn't going away. And so what they see is, okay, we were told something that wasn't true, and it was fear-based. We were told to fear the dangers and calamities that would come with same-sex marriage. Those dangers and calamities have not materialized. And so what that has done, I think, with the rising generation, not just that, but I think a whole bunch of things We, they, we were taught so many things were going to be so destructive and so dangerous. On social media, there's a clip from Julie Beck, who was in the Relief Society presidency, and it's the clip where she talks about the woman who paid her tithing and was a faithful member of the church, but she had a cup of coffee every morning, and surely the Lord wouldn't keep her out of heaven for a little cup of coffee. Well, that little cup of coffee prevented her from getting a temple recommend. And then all of her posterity ended up falling away from the church, all because of a cup of coffee. I mean, that kind of fear meant that I never tasted coffee throughout my entire life. And the rising generation goes, really? A cup of coffee is going to be the end of me, huh? I don't believe that. And you see all of the polls, even active members of the church in active millennials, active Gen Z, they still drink coffee by large margins. I mean, something like 40% of active members of the church have said, no, no, that's stupid. I'm not afraid of that. I'm going to drink coffee.

I mean, right.

The fear isn't working. The fear isn't working. And, and as a result, I, I think— I mean, you talk about your faith crisis, you talk about finding about information about Joseph Smith and polygamy and race or whatever else, and that triggered this sort of faith crisis. I think with the youth, it's not a faith crisis, it's a trust crisis. There's overlap between the two, but I think they're kind of different things. I don't think that the rising generation is walking away because of polygamy or race. I think they're walking away because they don't trust the leaders. They don't trust what they've been taught. I don't know if they've ever believed in Joseph Smith or any of the truth claims. They just say, huh, there are a bunch of old men that are telling me how to live my life, and I don't trust them. I don't think they have any, any, any sort of special access to God that I don't have. I don't see anything prophetic about what they do, and I'm going to live my life the way I want. So when Elder Ballard says, where will you go with the rising generation? He's talking to people who, even if they're sitting in the pews on a Sunday, have sort of already left. They're going to go into the world where they are interacting with people in ways that, that bring them happiness and they don't see any value in the church. And then when the church starts yelling at them, you're going to lose everything. They're going to say, I never had anything, at least not with you. I never had anything in this church that mattered to me. It's the thing that should terrify the brethren is not the people, is not the Ian Wilkeses who go through this sort of wrenching, traumatic experience as they try to leave. It's, it's the kids who go, huh, not for me. And they shrug the church off like it's an ill-fitting suit and they walk away. That, that's what should terrify them because they don't have the, the only way to get them back is to offer positive incentives rather than negatives.

I think you're absolutely right. I think you're right to draw that distinction between my experience, which is common, you know, people go through similar things that I've gone through, um, and the young folks who weren't invested as much as like I was, you know, they, they weren't as entrenched and they, to your point, they maybe don't, you know, they didn't accept Joseph Smith, you know, being a prophet or the First Vision. Maybe there's lots of things they didn't believe. They weren't as, say, invested in that spiritually. And they found or had their own personal experiences outside of the church already. And they're already in a good place and they've already found some things that they, you know, places and people that they feel they belong to and accepted with outside of the church. Whereas I didn't, you know, most of my friends, and this is an important point as well, were in the church. I think I did almost everything inside the church. It controlled every or influenced every aspect of my life, you know, even my personal friends. I mean, almost all of them were, you know, in the church. I didn't go to anything. I didn't mix with non-members who went drinking. It was rare, maybe a business meeting, but that was quite rare. These days, you know, the young kids, they've got friends from all walks of life, all religions, some not religious. They're in a good place already. They don't need the church or the gospel or any religion, period. And so they're already in a place where they've gone to. And so when Elder Ballard says, where will they go? Well, they're already there. I mean, some of the memes that came out when that talk was delivered was, and it came from some of the young folks that I know, they post pictures of them having a coffee in Starbucks, right? Oh, on a beach chilling on a Sunday morning instead of being in sacrament. So that was the reaction I saw from many folks, you know, different ages. And the other point you said right at the very beginning, which is a really important, really interesting point, was when they leave, they don't go to another church. Many of them don't do that. I didn't. I've not gone to another church. I don't have faith in religious organizations. Anymore. My faith is in community, in nature, in family, in friends, in the sunset, in the stars, looking at the lights, you know, the Northern Lights, natural phenomena, you know, and have my own personal prayers and conversations with God. That's where my faith is now. It's not in any building or any structure or any particular meeting. We used to go and talk about having meetings. So, you know, so I've— I'm happier, uh, much happier than I was, um, you know, when I was discovering those issues. The kids are so smart, Jim. I mean, these guys, young folks, are so smart. They caught on to these things. They don't have any trust and confidence in these kind of religious organizations from, you know, old, uh, men that, um, may get it right, may not get it right. And you think, by the way, in terms of the, uh, the marriage Act, Bill, um, which the church now endorses. They think that they, they would have foreseen that with their propheticness, um, and powers, and clearly they, you know, they didn't. And the other thing I want to kind of highlight as well is the Christ that I know, God that I know now, hasn't turned her back on me. I don't believe Christ has turned his back on me at all. The Christ that I know would, if he was here, would hold me and, and love me and be my friend and not reject me, unlike the church, unlike many of the church members that completely cut me off, you know, overnight. And so I've rediscovered a new relationship with God, a new relationship with, with Christ, or a, a perspective on those individuals or powers or energies, whatever you want to describe them, this universal power that exists. And I do believe Christ, you know, is real. I don't know the details. I believe he's part of a greater force or greater energy. I don't think he, Christ, was exclusive in terms of, you know, the only person to have all of this, uh, this power. I think there are great individuals that have lived and have gone before, uh, you know, into the next life, who are part of this big greater energy power, which I feel and I believe that there's a greater purpose, a greater meaning, a greater energy out there. And I've experienced that myself. And so I've found that, I've discovered that, and I'm in a, a, uh, wonderful place. And again, the kids, the kids are the youth, and they're very smart, and they will find— they'll figure it out. And the thing is, well, when you, you know, you mentioned the, um, car salesman, right, with Elder Ballard. Um, going back to that, looking at the car analogy where I was in the, in the vehicle, the church vehicle, well, yeah, I discovered there were problems with the vehicle. You know, the engine wasn't put together right, and the transmission didn't quite work. You know what figured out, you know, uh, the parts of the vehicle that were problems and issues, ask questions about it, but told to look, just, just, you know, go, go, just, just keep it as it is, don't, don't change anything. And so, yeah, so some people in the church are quite happy to be ignorant and not ask questions. I've got a question for you. You, you've, you've, uh, seen and heard and know many people's experiences in and out the church, how they've left, why they stay, etc., etc. If you were to leave the church, Jim, what would the reaction be from your family and friends, do you think, and from the church leaders, given how relatively prominent you are in the church and the family and the history and background?

Boy, that's a very good question, and it's a question I've thought of many, many times. I, I think it would be devastating to my mother, particularly. I think she would just be heartbroken. And I also believe she would continue to accept me, that she would continue to love me. I grew up when my, my uncle had left the Church in a rather public way. He was a professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, and he actually wrote priesthood manuals for the Church. This was back in the time when the Church was essentially a number of different disparate churches like the Sunday school was essentially its own church and the Relief Society was its own church and they had their own leadership and they did not coordinate and they had their own fundraisers. And sometimes you'd have to decide, am I going to go to the primary fundraiser tonight or am I going to go to the young men's fundraiser tonight? And, and, and so it was Harold B. Lee who decided to bring all of this together under correlation. And my uncle was writing priesthood manuals just as the Correlation Committee was getting underway. And so it was sort of a new experience. And his point of contact was Richard L. Evans, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. And my Uncle David would hand Richard L. Evans his draft of a priesthood manual, and Richard L. Evans would say, this is brilliant, this is wonderful, I love it. And he would take it to Harold B. Lee, who would say, this is stupid, this is ridiculous, I hate it, and bring it back and say, rewrite it from scratch. And my Uncle David finally went, you guys aren't inspired. You guys— how can you guys be inspired if you disagree and you have problems like this? And so he very publicly left the church. And, and throughout my life, we would have these big family gatherings at my grandparents' house. And David was there and David was included and David was embraced and David was part of the discussion. And David was never, at least consciously, made to feel like he was some kind of an outcast. And, and so that was the template for me of, okay, when someone leaves the church and the family, this is how you treat them. You continue to include them. You continue to have them be part of the family. I firmly believe if I were to leave, that that's how my family would treat me. Now, my friends, that's an interesting one because right now my participation in the church is almost entirely consumed by my participation in the Tabernacle Choir. I don't go to my sacrament meeting every Sunday. I have to go to a different sacrament meeting to take the sacrament and then leave. I don't know anybody where I do that. And so my entire church community now are Tab choir members. And if I left the church, I'd probably never see any of them ever again. I don't really have a day-to-day association with them because geographically they're spread out within a 100-mile radius of the Tabernacle. And so the only time I see them is on choir, and I have fun conversations with them there. And we go on tour, and I've had made many associations, but I think I can count on one hand, maybe one finger. There's one guy I go to lunch with who's left the choir that I still keep in touch with. But I don't, you know, I would just lose that. I wouldn't have anything. And what that has also done is I don't— since I don't go to church, it's like I don't see all of the people in my neighborhood at church. And so I wonder, you know, they— I think that that would just quiet— I don't think there would be any kind of anger or I don't think anybody would get up at the pulpit and tell these stories about Jim Bennett and how he's fallen from a great height because I wouldn't be falling from a great height. Your height was much higher than my height. But I just think I'd be forgotten. I think I'd just sort of quietly slip into nothingness. And that makes me very sad. But I don't intend to leave. I, you know, all these people, well, Jim, if you've got these problems with the church or these frustrations with the church, why don't you leave? You know, I'm staying. And part of it is I'm staying because it bugs you that I stay. Not you necessarily, Ian Wilkes, but it bugs some of these other people that I, that that I stay, even if I have problems and frustrations with the church. I feel, I feel very strongly that, that God wants me to stay. This is where God wants me. This is where he has planted me. This is where I can do the most good. And I've talked about that. I don't want to get into that. But, but that's the very long answer to your question. But the reality is, I don't think it would upend my life, and I don't think it would do any real damage to my family, but I do think it would essentially erase my connection to my church community.

And I think you would struggle with that. You've always said that the church, the members, the Mormons are your tribe, Right. You're intrinsically connected historically, legacy, family, genealogically, spiritually, and you need the church for so many reasons.

I don't mean to interrupt you, but that connection wouldn't go away because I've seen that with my family who have left in terms of, you know, my family legacy my connection to my ancestors. My family members who have left still speak about that, still are interested in that, still feel connected to that. So I don't think— I mean, I could withdraw my name from membership records. But I am Mormon to the core in a way that there is no escaping. You know, there is no escaping my family legacy. That will be a part of me whether I go to church or not, whether I spend all of my time railing against the church. If that becomes what I do, there is still that sort of history of mine. You know, there I think about it and I go back to the Jewish community where I grew up. You have so many people who reject Jewish teachings and who are still so very Jewish because it is their, it's their ethnicity, it's their cultural identity.

The culture, yeah.

And that's what Mormonism will always be for me regardless of whether it's anything else.

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. I know we're going to close here in a few moments. As I look at the church leadership, you know, on this particular subject and in the context of what Elder Ballard said, you know, and how he said it. I think how he said it is really important, how he phrased it, his tone, etc., his delivery. I see many times, often, the church leadership being incredibly smart and intelligent on so many things, but on something like this, I see them being incredibly stupid in that— can they not see that if they kept in touch, if they kept the relationship, if they provided some dignity for those that leave, a little bit of respect, a little bit of kindness, in the same way they do when people are investigating the church and coming into the church. Why can't they show the same level of decency and integrity and respect and kindness and thoughtfulness when someone decides to leave? I mean, is there any Is there ever a good reason to leave? Is there any good reason to leave the church? I think so. They— Elder Ballard clearly doesn't because he didn't talk about that. And they take it as a rejection personally. If we leave, it's a personal rejection. It's like in a golf club, you know, we've got like the rules, really, and no, none— nobody in the golf club speaks to you ever again, right? That obviously wouldn't happen, but, um, you know, it's Why can't they have the intelligence to see the, the hurt that this can cause in terms of taking away someone's dignity, removing the community overnight, and instructing people, like in my case, to have nothing to do with, you know, Ian's family and don't associate with them, have nothing to do with them, etc.? Can't they see that's not what Christ taught or who Christ was? And can't they see the advantages and benefits by maintaining a good, healthy, kind relationship because, um, uh, that's the right thing to do. Yeah, I might not come back, people might not come back, and, and you can pray and fast, it might not work, etc., but that's okay. We still have a good relationship with Ian and his family and, and still be part of the community. I mean, they removed me from the food drive that I helped organize. I was no longer part of that. I they completely disconnected me. And that was, you know, collecting and picking up and delivering food to the food banks. I was involved in all the original planning with that and setting that up, and now cut off. That was, that was heartbreaking as well. That couldn't even— we weren't even good enough to go and, you know, pick up and collect food and take that to the food bank. I just found it extraordinary. It's quite short-sighted by the local leaders, I think, and the the church leadership to not allow someone to have their dignity to leave. And it seems to me, uh, it's become very apparent to me that my friendships that I thought I had across the stake and the ward and elsewhere were real, but it seems like they were conditional on my activity and my faithfulness in and towards the church, which is— which speaks to, you know, for itself, I think. So I'm so grateful we've had this conversation. I've had a lot of thoughts and feelings on this topic, wanted to express them and vent them and talk about them. Having this conversation helps me deeply, personally, and very, in a very positive way. So I'm grateful for that, and I hope our listeners listening in here will gain something positive from this. Again, I want to highlight all the extraordinary good that the church has done and does, and certainly has done for me. It really has. And that's still painful for me, that I still miss that. There's certain aspects of that community that I deeply miss. Um, however, I've rediscovered myself. I'm not miserable, I'm happy. I could never go back. I could probably go back and visit, you know, for the sacrament. Would love to be part of the same community, be part of, you know, the church community, church membership there, congregation, as part of a local community event. Would be willing to do that. Um, you know, I will never return, um, and the thought of going back, I mean, what would I have to do if I went back? Imagine that. That's a whole other conversation. I might have to repent. I'd have to, you know, recount everything. I'd have to probably write an apology, as I've heard somebody else has done, stand up at the sacrament and apologize and say, I've repented, I was wrong. I'd have to go through a very lengthy process of repentance in order to get back, you know, into the church. You've been a bishop or stake presidency, I think the process is even longer. I'd have to pay tithing. I've been told you have to pay back pay, although I don't think it's official. I'd have to go through the absolute wringer to get back into the church. And then even then, people would be talking about my history and, well, yeah, it was an apostate, he was evil, he did all these terrible things, and now he's come back and you can't trust him. I could never be a leader again. They wouldn't put me up as a bishop or stake presidency again. Heaven forbid. Um, you know, so you'd never ever get back. There's no way to get back, even if I wanted to. I mean, I can't imagine the challenges of trying to get back and, you know, get back into the church. It would, you know, make it difficult to leave, um, and then when you've left, they cut you off and you can never get back. It's just, to me, it's stupidity and shortsightedness, and it's just a lack of vision. And foresight and insight into the souls of people. You know, I'm still me, still have a soul, still have feelings and thoughts, and still love and live and succeed and fail, and still a person, and, and, you know, still have value, but clearly, sadly, not to the church.

Well, I think that actually could be the subject of another podcast, is What would it take to get Ian Wilkes back to church and what would that look like?

So I'm told that by local people that will never happen, but can you imagine that the specific things that you'd have to do and demonstrate, you'd have to go far, far and above and beyond because I've fallen so far and now have to crawl out of the hole that I've, this abyss that I've made for myself. And begging on my hands and on my knees, please forgive me, I was wrong. And all these awful false things that you've taught, they're correct. I'd have to agree to false claims, things that aren't true. I'd have to accept things that are false in order to get back and I'd have to give up my integrity.

I would just—

Authenticity.

All I would do is require you to clean the church every Saturday so that nobody else would have to clean the toilets. That would all be on you. So yes, anyway, we can discuss that next time. I think we're out of time this time, but thank you very much. I think this has been a very productive conversation, and as always, I am very grateful for your insight and for your wisdom. And, you know, where will you go? What will you do? I'm glad that you've gone here. And that you do this podcast with me. Uh, so with that, uh, we will leave all of you, uh, until the next episode, and we hope you'll join us again for Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you, Jim. Oh! Oh my God! Oh no!