Your Little Factory

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. I'm Ian Wilkes. I'm here with my most handsome partner, Mr. Jim Bennett.

Hello, Jim. Hello, Ian Wilkes. I, they don't recognize the irony of you calling me handsome right now because my hair is rather askew, which is making me happy that this is a, an audio podcast and not a video podcast.

To our listeners and any new listeners that have joined us, uh, we are really excited to, uh, have you, uh, spend this time with us today because we have what I think at least is probably the most, one of the most, if not the most weirdest, wackiest, strangest, unusual, in some ways funny, in other ways dangerous, multifaceted, multilayered conversation on this podcast. Today we are going to be discussing an interesting talk that was made into a pamphlet or a leaflet. And the title of that is To Young Men Only. I repeat, To Young Men Only. This was a talk and a pamphlet created or developed by— comments by Boykett Packer. It was his comments given in an address at the priesthood session of General Conference on October 2nd, 1976. It's extraordinary, and we want to share this with you. In the opening comment, in terms of framing it and providing some context, it deals with sexual health. I think there's an element of mental health for sure. I think the intent behind this talk is good, Jim Bennett. I think Elder Packer meant well. There are some elements that I think are quite dangerous. Some of the elements are quite funny. It covers virtually every emotion, or most emotions, some that our listeners might not even be expecting. And it deals with, as I say, it deals with sexual health. And again, as a precursor into our conversation, I put in the subject from this talk, which I think many of our listeners and certainly ourselves will interpret as the issues related to masturbation. And I also wanna say this as well. This is an interesting conversation from my perspective because, because if I go back in time, you know, I'm a very conservative, reserved person in certain aspects and I've never talked about these things openly. You know, if anything about masturbation or sexual, sexuality or sexual health has come up, it's always been with the bishop, you know, in, in a office in, in private.— that a lot of people, I think, like me, who are very conservative, or used to be conservative, or quite conservative, who don't talk about these things. There's a history with the church and many of the members in the culture that to talk about such things openly is a taboo. We don't talk about this stuff openly. We certainly don't talk about it on a podcast. If I go back in time and someone said to me, you'd be talking about, the issue of, uh, or the, uh, subject rather of masturbation on a podcast where everyone can hear and say, no way, I don't, there's no way I, I believe that. So it deals with so many different aspects of, um, sexual health, mental health. Uh, the pamphlet, uh, although it doesn't mention the word masturbation, it's clear in my mind at least that that's what it's talking about. And so what I, you know, I use, um, in my business I use a number of AI tools. Some are for more general AI, others are more specific industry related. And I put in, uh, you know, is masturbation normal and healthy in one of these general AI tools? And this is what it came up with. This is what, um, the response was pretty quickly, is because AI. And I thought this explanation and this description was pretty, sounds pretty balanced to me. Uh, so the question was, in the AI tool, is masturbation healthy? Is it normal? And it says here, yes, masturbation is a normal and healthy part of human sexuality. It's a way to explore your body, experience pleasure, and release sexual tension. And there's some interesting, uh, points that we want to talk about, about the, uh, subject of pleasure, because in the church, there are certain elements in the church that in the past people the way they used to think, that sex is not for pleasure, it's for, uh, making babies, for having children. We'll get into that a bit later. It goes on to say there are many potential benefits to masturbation, both physical and mental. These can include stress relief. Masturbation can help to release endorphins, which have mood-boosting and stress-reducing effects. Improved sleep. The relaxation that comes from, with orgasm. Can make it easier to fall asleep. Increased body awareness. Masturbation can help you learn more about your body and what you find pleasurable. Healthy sexual development. It's a normal part of sexual development and can help individuals understand their own sexuality. Safe sexual expression. It's a safe way to experience sexual pleasure without the risk of pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases or infections. It's important to remember that everyone's experience with masturbation is different. There's no right or wrong way to do it, and there's no set number of times you should or shouldn't masturbate. It's all about what feels good, feels good to you. If you have questions about masturbation, it's always a good idea to talk to a healthcare professional or a trusted adult. They can provide you with accurate information and answer any questions you may have. And just one final thought here before we open this up for this conversation. 'Cause I think we also have a time to, to review, uh, the pamphlet, the talk Elder Placker gave in quite a bit of detail. You know, as a father, as you know, and the, the pamphlet references is actually the role of the father in having a conversation about, uh, sexual habits and activity and masturbation. Reference it a few times in the pamphlet, um, between the conversation of father and the children, et cetera, throughout, throughout the sons. Specifically, um, and as a father, this is something that I have, uh, needed and wanted to do with my, you know, my own, uh, sons, uh, and in the past, if I'd have followed the church, uh, I think those conversations would have been very difficult, um, you know, in regards to the advice that I would have given them if I remained active in the church, because the church holds a certain position a very entrenched position on this, and there's certain things that— advice that you pass on to your kids that the church would support. And there's other advice, like what I've just read, I don't think the church would support. The church doesn't want, uh, anyone to be masturbating in the church at all, anytime. It considers it a sin. We'll get into that as well. So without further ado, Jim Bennett, um, You've, you are familiar with this pamphlet. The pamphlet, interestingly, although it's addressed to the priesthood, the Priesthood Session General Conference, titled To Young Men Only, it has a nickname, I think it's a nickname, and it's often or affectionately called the pamphlet of the little factory. Or the little factory. Can you tell us why and then lead us into the, uh, the, the comments, the remarks on the packet, and share your, uh, stories and experiences as in why you feel you need to?

Where to start? Because you would suggest that we talk about this, and you've given us, I think, a very thoughtful introduction that lays out the issues and gives us sort of an academic perspective. And it is very difficult for me to talk about this without getting almost excruciatingly personal. I would say there is no General Conference talk ever given that has had a greater impact on my life than this one. And it has not been a positive impact. In any way. It has done tremendous damage to me individually, and I think it's done tremendous damage to people all throughout the church. And what's interesting about it, we're going to— I'm skipping ahead, but the church now has essentially flushed this pamphlet down the memory hole. If you are to— this was a conference talk given by Elder Boyd K. Packer in the October 1976 General Conference. If you were to go to the Church's website and try to pull that talk up off of the website, you won't find it. The Church has just quietly removed it. Apparently, the video is still there. You can find the video of the talk, but the transcription of the talk, the listing of the talk in the table of contents, It's no longer there. It's gone. You would presume that Boyd K. Packer sat the October 1976 General Conference out, and it's— the pamphlet is obviously no longer produced by the church. And furthermore, the whole idea of masturbation in the church has undergone a very quiet and very I don't want to say controversial, contradictory kind of renaissance. Because you are correct, the church still— but you said the church considers masturbation to be a sin, and I think that is still correct. However, I know it's correct because— do you know who Natasha Helfer is? Does that name mean anything to you? No. Natasha Helfer is a, um, she's a therapist and a former member of the church, and she had publicly stated that masturbation— essentially things that the AI wrote that you read were things— was essentially Natasha Helfer's, Dr. Helfer's position, which is that masturbation is normal and it is healthy and the church is wrong to condemn it. And that was front and center in her church court, and she was eventually excommunicated for it. But that said, I know of several bishops— I think I've even said this on this podcast before— I know of several bishops who have received instruction, one who received instruction directly from a General Authority, And the instruction was, there is no ecclesiastical consequence for masturbation. That's different from saying masturbation is okay. That's certainly different from encouraging masturbation, which the Church has not done and seems likely never will do. But they said, it used to be that I know of several people who have been told that they had to wait a year before going on a mission until they no longer masturbated, that they couldn't have masturbated for a year or they couldn't go on a mission. I know of people who have been denied temple recommends because they masturbate. I know of legions of people who have been denied the sacrament because they masturbate. Did that, when you were a bishop or when you were a stake president, did that ever happen? Were you, did you ever deny the sacrament or have anybody deny the sacrament or tell someone they couldn't go? No, no.

Again, my growing up, my background is very different. I joined the church at 16 and, you know, before 16, masturbation was quite normal, I think, for everybody. I think they talked about it in sex ed at school going back, and I think it was kind of normal back then, you know, in England going back a bit. When young men came, you know, came to me and asked those general questions, I never asked them specifically, are you masturbating? It's none of my business, right? I just said, is there anything related to, you know, any sexuality or, you know, any issues that they were talking about in that area? And, and they did. I said, it's okay if you don't, it's very private, very personal. I never have no memories of getting into any of those conversations, those conversations, but the young men thing, I know I just didn't get into that. I didn't feel comfortable talking about that with a, you know, young man. It just wasn't there that— and by the way, there's no training. No one gave me any training for this stuff. This is— I'm actually talking about this stuff, how personal and private this is. I mean, I shared earlier that for me, this is, you know, I never would talk about this stuff ever. And I wouldn't want to put that on anyone. So me, it was a— I have no memories of getting into those detailed conversations or any of those conversations. But really with young men, our youth, other than just asking her whatever that general question was, um, and probably changing the question really to make them feel comfortable. I just didn't— it just never felt right to me. The thing is, I was a bishop that didn't follow all the rules, Jim, so I wasn't, uh, by-the-book kind of guy, right? And I just went on, you know, what's the— not just the right thing to do, what's the best thing to do? I don't want the individual, the young man, young woman, feeling uncomfortable. I just didn't think it was appropriate. So with adults, yes. You know, adults who have got issues with masturbation, and I didn't stop them having the sacrament. My advice was, look, just— it was simple— just stop it or try not to do it. You know, I'm not— I wasn't a bishop that punished people. I only— the worst I ever did was disfellowship somebody for something, you know, that was quite Sorry, I put somebody on probation cuz that was quite serious. And I put somebody on disfellowshipment and I, and I, it could have been worse. That was it. The only two things I ever did. The rest was, you know, uh, go your way, sin no more. I remember that. Right. Look, thank you. You talked to me. It, it's confidential. I won't talk to any, uh, to anybody about it. It won't go anywhere. Stop it. Refrain from it. Just learn from it. You know, the fact that you've come and talked to it means it bothers you enough for goodness sake, right? Well, I didn't say you're gonna say it to them, but I said, you know, it's enough for you to talk about it. You've obviously put yourself through torment. You've gone through enough torment and enough pain. You've learned from it. Just move on, you know, go thy way and sin no more was my approach. So, but I, I was not an ordinary bishop. I just didn't follow the book. So other bishops, I, I know other bishops that did drill down into specifics and some that actually went too far. On this subject.

Well, I wish you had been my bishop when I was young, and we'll get into that as we go forward. But the instruction now is bishops are explicitly told, and you would not have had to have been explicitly told when you were serving as a bishop because you were wise enough to recognize this was not an appropriate subject to discuss. But they now have to be explicitly told there is no ecclesiastical consequence for masturbation. You cannot— there is no church discipline that should be applied. You can't deny someone a temple recommend. You can't deny someone the sacrament. You can't— there's just no consequence to it, which still is not the same thing as saying it's okay. They're not really willing to go that far. And so the silence on it maintains a certain amount of confusion and contradiction and leadership roulette because there are still leaders that haven't gotten the memo and continue to make people's lives miserable over this issue. This came up— have you ever watched Jubilee? It's an online show, um, and that they had one called Mormons versus Ex-Mormons.. And what they would do is they would ask a question and they'd have Mormons and ex-Mormons answer it. And one of the questions in the discussions was, is masturbation sinful? And Cardon Ellis, who is the head of Ward Radio, he's a guy I've been on their podcast a number of different times. I consider Cardon a friend, although I think he's kind of upset with me at the moment, but that's another story. Cardon Ellis was representing the church on this, and they brought him forward and he says, "Yes, it's a sin, but it's really no big deal. It's a parking ticket," for lack of a better term, was how he described it. This is just a parking ticket. This is just no big deal. Nobody really cares about it. And so this gets— now leads me into the first of two very personal and very painful stories. I'm gonna start with the one that happened when I was 12 years old. That when I became a deacon, I was handed a copy of that pamphlet for young men only, to young men only. I, I always think of it as for young men only, but it's to young men only. Was handed a copy of this pamphlet and I was really kind of excited. Was like, ooh, to young men only. This is a secret. This is something only for young men. Is this some kind of special priesthood thing that I'm now being initiated into? I was really kind of excited. I can remember thinking, this is cool. This is cool. This is what happens when— because I just got in the priesthood. This is what happens. I'm now part of the brotherhood, you know. And so, and then I started to read it. And we've talked about— you said in your introduction that this is very clearly about masturbation. When I was 12 years old, I had— not only did I have no idea what masturbation was, I certainly had never done it. I had never even heard the word. I mean, I don't know how, you know, innocent and naive or whatever you can make fun of my sheltered upbringing all you want, but at 12 years old, I'm handed this pamphlet which does not— I don't even think it uses the word sex either. I read it and I had no idea what it was talking about. No idea whatsoever. And I did not realize it was sexual because the metaphor of the little factory is how Elder Packer describes masturbation. And it is such a tortured and labored metaphor that it was impossible to know what the frick he was talking about. Just, I had no idea. There you have a little factory and it will go into operation at some point silently, and you, you'll never even know that it's working. And I I mean, he describes wet dreams in a way that is just ludicrous. He talks about the factory has a valve, and at some point the valve will open and release all that is excess, and this may happen in the form of a dream. I'm like, what, what? A valve? Release what? I mean, it will release a substance that that creates life. So that's how he describes semen. I mean, it's just so tortured and so labored and so impenetrable to somebody who doesn't have any context for what he's talking about. So I read through this pamphlet and it's very clear from the tone of the pamphlet that this is important, that messing with your little factory is a huge, huge deal. And it can lead to terrible things. I mean, later on it talks essentially about— I guess it does mention sex because I do think it mentions homosexuality. It tells the story of a missionary companion and a missionary who beat up his companion. And because essentially the implication— and I didn't recognize this at 12 years old, but I've certainly recognized it reading it since. The implication was that this companion was gay and may very well have made sexual advances, but that's not even clear. The sense I get is this guy, this missionary, came out to his companion and his companion hit him in the face. And you read it and Elder Packer's reaction is, "Oh, well, somebody had to do it." He says here, "While I was on a mission," you should—

so Elder Packer's sharing the story. I've got the pamphlet in front of me right now. While So this is Elder Packer sharing this story in his comments. While I was on a mission, about this other missionary, while I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said, this is Elder Packer's, one of his missionary friends, said he had something to confess. I was worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done. After patient encouragement, he finally blurted out, I hit my companion. Oh, is that all? I said in great relief. That's Elder Packer, I think. 'But I floored him,' he said. After learning a little more, my response was, 'Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a general authority to solve that problem that way.' Um, so he was— seemed to be okay about this missionary beating the crap out of this other, uh, missionary. And he says, 'I'm not recommending that, of course, to you, uh, to you, but I am not admitting it. You must protect yourself.' Yeah, maybe the, um, The gay person was, uh, yeah, if you watch the talk in conference, that's a laugh line.

Says, I'm not recommending it, but I'm not omitting it. Hahaha. The whole crowd just laughs. I mean, it's horrific. It's horrific when you consider that. I mean, this is a general authority. This is an apostle advocating violence against, uh, a gay missionary. He's not advocating it, but he's not omitting it. Of course he's advocating it. He's saying it's acceptable. It's just horrific. And if there's any positive to be taken from that, it's that the church has moved away from that. Church doesn't— the church— I think that and not the masturbation may well have been the reason why this pamphlet was quietly flushed down the memory hole, because that— we don't teach that anymore. We don't teach that just being gay is, is terrible, and it's not acceptable to hit somebody who is gay. I mean, it's just so bizarre that that even has to be said, but clearly we have moved a great deal away from this pamphlet on a number of fronts. But anyway, so I read this pamphlet, got— was completely confused and made, I think, the mistake of taking it to my mother. And my mother, bless her heart, just, I mean, was very uncomfortable talking about this. She knew exactly what it is, but didn't want to. I mean, it was just so awkward. And I didn't really understand that because when I brought it to her, I go, what does this mean? What is this little factory? What is he talking about? And my mother just kind of hemmed and hawed and didn't know what to say. And finally she said, "Look, what it means is don't play with your penis." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And I just kind of sat there with that. And what that did, I mean, again, it's very difficult to It's to— for other people to understand this, because you have to put yourself in the mindset of a 12-year-old innocent who had no idea, had absolutely no sexual experience whatsoever, either with another person or even with himself. I had absolutely no sexual anything. I didn't understand it. I didn't comprehend it. And here I am being being told, don't play with your penis. And in the context of having read something that has scared me to death because I'm terrified that I'm going to activate a little factory. So I don't know how long this lasted, but for a long time, uh, I would not hold my penis as I peed. I would stand there spread eagle and just hope I landed in the bowl. And because I was afraid, I don't play with your penis. Well, does that mean don't touch your penis when you're peeing? I mean, nobody, nobody was comfortable spelling it out. Certainly Elder Packer wasn't, because he wasn't even comfortable telling me what the pamphlet was about. Everything was awkward. Everything was, we can't talk about this. Everything. There was a layer of shame and a layer of guilt that, that essentially weighed me down for my entire adolescence. Uh, I spent, I say this, I told the story on another podcast and when I admitted this, uh, this podcast, uh, they, they put this applause sound afterwards like, oh yeah, good for you. Because the reality is people may not believe this. I don't know. I know one of my leaders didn't believe this and that's the second story. But I went through my entire adolescence without masturbating. And I don't say that— I'm not proud of it, because the reason I didn't masturbate was not because I was righteous. It's because I was terrified. I was terrified of my own body. I spent my entire adolescence terrified of my own body and worried that I was going to do something And the way masturbation was dealt with in sort of hushed tones and whispers, and some bishops thought it was a big deal and others like you did not, but it was, you had nobody to talk to about it and you had nobody to ask questions about it with. And I also even thought, well, maybe I am masturbating because if you touch your penis at any point, Uh, what if you have an erection and you touch your penis? Is that masturbation? And I mean, these sound ridiculous now as I talk about them, but there wasn't anybody who I could talk about this with. And I couldn't even talk to, you know, a healthcare professional. I mean, if there was such a thing, I mean, but we had science classes where we had discussions about about sexuality and sex education.

Jim Bennett. Sex ed.

Yeah. The first sex education class I had was in 5th grade. It was very clinical. I remember it was, it was all about sperms and eggs and fertilization. And I just think sex education in the 1970s was so fraught and so controversial that nobody wanted to touch on anything. I can't remember masturbate. I can remember masturbation coming up once. Once it was in 7th grade. Mr. Robbins was my science teacher and we were doing a unit on sexuality and he had said, I want any— I want you. I know this is difficult. So everybody, every— I just remembered this. This is the first time I've remembered this in decades. But he said, I want everybody to write down your questions, and don't put your name to them because I know that some of these questions will be difficult for you to answer. And I didn't write this question down, but somebody else did. They wrote down the question, "Can you please explain what masturbation is?" And I remember hearing that and being like, "Oh, oh good, somebody's gonna tell me this. We're gonna talk about this." And Mr. Robbins's answer again did not. I mean, nobody wants to say, "Okay, what it is is when you pleasure yourself and you arouse yourself to the point where you ejaculate." I mean, nobody had ever given me an explanation that was that simple. His answer essentially was, the thing you need to know is that there are no physical dangers from masturbating. There are rumors that you can go blind, or you can— he says it does not harm you.

President Kimball has quite a bit to say of this subject in his now infamous book, Miracle of Forgiveness. He says this, and this is just extraordinary. It says that he condemns masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not the mastery of it. And it limits growth towards godhood, which is the object of a moral life, becoming a god. He says the modern prophets have indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. I think the position has changed now. I think if you, if you're a young man, you masturbate, you can go on a mission. So who was right?

Who was wrong?

And he goes on to say this, while we should not regard this weakness, masturbation, as the, as the heaviest sin, which some of the sexual practices are, it is of itself bad enough to require sincere repentance. What is more, it, it too often, too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature.

Homosexuality.

But doing it in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation practiced with another person of the same sex, and thence into total, not partial, total homosexuality. So if you masturbate, you turn gay, essentially. Right now our listeners can't see it, but you are holding your face in your hands and shaking your head. And I'm shaking my head. I mean, he says that. That's in Miracle of Forgiveness.

Oh, I know. I know. The church has quietly flushed Miracle of Forgiveness down the memory hole too.

We should talk about that. That's another subject. And you and I have talked about discussing that book. But anyway, so you were saying, to keep us on track, you were saying that you know, masturbation isn't dangerous.

Well, no, I mean, this was a 7th grade— this was at A.E. Wright Middle School in Southern California, and Mr. Robbins, my science teacher, had no connection to the church. So as he was talking about this, and he was— he refused to like get into any specifics as to what masturbation was because I still really wasn't clear on it. I, I was nervous that maybe I was masturbating. Uh, you know, it doesn't matter. It's just so embarrassing to even talk about it. It's just painful. It's physically painful to discuss this. It is just so embarrassing.

I know if you don't, if you're not comfortable, that's fine.

We can, we can move on. I feel like I ought to talk about it because I think there are so many other people who have experienced maybe not something as weirdly specific as this, But the kind of body shaming that comes from an inability to talk clearly about the church's standards and expectations, I think that is widespread even today. I think there are so many people that don't really understand what the church expects of them, what they consider a sin, what's appropriate, what they can and can't do. I, because there's no place to talk about it. Everything is just, you're so, you read the little factory story and you're supposed to figure it out on your own. And there wasn't anybody to help me figure it out. And as I got older, I mean, I, I, I came to understand certainly more, but I didn't understand really what the boundaries are, really how serious it was, really what the big, I mean, I, I just had so many questions and I had nobody to ask them to. Yeah. And so he's not in a, in a, in a middle school science class.

Yeah.

And it's the first time the subject has even come up. And the only information I get is it's not going to make you go blind. And that, that was essentially it. That's the only time that I can remember any kind of discussion about masturbation at all throughout my entire adolescence.

Did you, uh, and you talked about this before on the podcast, um, You know, when you go for your interview to serve a mission— yes, you know, I had young men come to me as a bishop who want to serve a mission, and I had a probably more thorough, um, set of questions that was given to me that you ask the, the young individual, the young man or young woman. So the more thorough questions there were, and I think those are the conversations where we did talk about masturbation, with them, you know, are you free from masturbation? I think that was a question I asked, um, a young man who was interested in serving a mission. When you were having your interview with the bishop or your stake president, what was that conversation like? This is, uh, the interview as you would put your papers in for your mission. You'd met with the stake president or your bishop. Did, did that the subject of masturbation come up in those conversations?

It did. This is the second explosive, painful, physically painful story, probably more physically painful than the first. Well, I don't know if that's true because the first, the whole— I mean, my whole adolescence was overshadowed by two young men only. And it made me terrified of my own body and just caused all kinds of problems of self-image, self-esteem, self-confidence. It just did nothing but damage to all those things. So my mission interview, it was a little bit unusual in that I had grown up in Southern California and right after I graduated from high school, my family moved from the house I grew up in to Salt Lake City. And I stayed in Los Angeles. I spent, I went to the University of Southern California and then I, you know, so, but I left from Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City was my home even though I'd never really lived there. I'd never, you know, so I was interviewed for my mission by a bishop in a ward that I had never lived in, and by a stake president in a stake that I had never lived in. And the bishop's interview, I actually do think masturbation came up in the bishop's interview, but it came up very, very quickly. The bishop didn't want to even bring it up. He was like, so no problems then? I think that was the extent of it. And I said, "No problems." And off I went. So, I was told— it's the stake president's interview that has lingered in my life. And the story of the stake president's interview is, again, is a story I did not tell for at least 20 years. After it took place, but it, it scarred me. And I think it's important that we discuss it. Uh, so I was told, hey, you, you're in for a treat, Jim, because you get to be interviewed by John Huntsman. You know who John Huntsman is, Ian?

I do. I met his father at a business conference in Germany a long time ago.

No, it's The father I'm talking about, John Huntsman Jr., was the governor of Utah. So you met the guy who interviewed me for my mission.

Yeah, I did. We're going back to the '80s. It was a big exhibition, chemicals, plastics in Germany. Yeah, I met the guy that interviewed you. Same guy.

Yeah. John Huntsman Sr. Uh, there was a political guy in Utah who says Utah has many businessmen, but only one industrialist. He would always be referred to as industrialist John Huntsman. He ran this huge chemical plant. I think he was the richest man in Utah, one of the richest men in the world, a billionaire back when it was very difficult to be a billionaire. There are a lot more billionaires now. But so this extraordinarily prestigious, powerful, unbelievably intimidating man, and said, "You get to be interviewed by Jon Huntsman." Now, I didn't know who he was. And then they told me who he was, and so I was sufficiently intimidated when I got into his office. And I can remember so many specifics of this day because his office was a little tiny, tiny thing at the bottom of a stairwell. You could walk into a side door and it was right above this stairwell. The stairwell was right against the wall, and you would go right down the stairwell, and right at the bottom of the stairs was this tiny little office and where I found myself sitting 2, 3 feet away from John Huntsman Senior. And I get in there and I sit down and he kind of looks me over and he says, well, Elder Bennett, I, I don't know you, but I know your family and I know you come from good stock, was the term he used. He says, so I asked a lot of questions of missionaries, but I don't feel like I need to ask you all of those. I think we can skip a lot of these. I'm just going to ask you the one question I ask of all my missionaries: Do you masturbate? And I said no and thought we would move on. I thought, okay, no, I don't. And without skipping a beat, the next words out of his mouth were, I don't believe you. And he said, and I understand how this is difficult for people to talk about. And so I don't want you to go on your mission without having cleared this up. And I don't want you to go on your mission having lied to a stake president or lied to anybody. So I'm going to give you another opportunity. And he asked me again, do you masturbate? And I said, "No." And then he launched into this huge diatribe about how when you lie to your stake president, it's just like lying to the face of Jesus, because they have the priesthood, and so they represent Jesus. And so, in lying to the stake president, I'm lying to God. And he goes into how I'm going to be a failure as a missionary, because I'll never be able to have the Spirit with me, because I've lied directly to God., and this will last my whole life. I'm gonna be a failure as a— in marriage. I'm never gonna be a good father. Uh, I mean, I mean, the, the, this moment of me lying to him is gonna essentially ruin my life and condemn me to hell. I mean, I mean, I don't remember any of the words specifically at that point because I was so just, just so torn up. And so, because again, I was also kind of going, well, do I? I mean, I don't think I do. I mean, the way I understand what masturbation is, I've never done that. But is anything that I've done, could that be considered masturbation? And he's the stake president. And does he have the spirit of discernment? And is he sensing something that I don't know about? And he's John Huntsman, so he's obviously the most righteous man who could possibly be. And, you know, so I'm just torn up as I'm sitting here listening to this man I don't know condemn me to hell. In the course of it, I do remember one thing he said. He kind of rolled his eyes and he goes, well, if you're telling me the truth, you're the most righteous young man I've ever met. And again, he wasn't saying it as a compliment. It was a— this is why I can't possibly believe you, Jim, is this. No young man is that righteous. No young man doesn't masturbate. So, you know, obviously, so, so I was just sitting there just, just, just feeling ripped up. And so finally at the end of it, he says, so I'm going to ask you a third time. Now that you know all this, do you masturbate? And I responded, I do not. I mean, I don't know if I said, I, I don't know how I said yes or I do not, but I certainly wasn't confident. It wasn't like this defiant thing. It was just this, nope. Just, I don't masturbate. I made that clear a third time. And, uh, he just, he just kind of sighed and like, I can't stop you from going on a mission. It's all right. Well, there's nothing else I can do for you. I mean, and that was essentially the end of the interview. There was no like, you know, well, I hope I to be helpful. I hope. You know, you would think at the end of an interview it would be like, you know, "Ah, we're so excited for you." It was just, he was just so deflated that there was nothing he could do to stop me from going on a mission when he knew that I was a terrible sinner. And I remember walking out of that office and just scurrying up those stairs as fast as I can, as I could, and so grateful that they were so close to the door. Because it meant that I didn't have to see anybody on my way out. I didn't have to talk to anybody. And I'm going home, and I'm going home with this sort of condemnation hanging over my head that my life is ruined. I've just been condemned to hell by John Huntsman. I'm, you know, and I couldn't talk about it. I didn't talk to my parents about it. I didn't talk to my family about it. I didn't talk to— I never talked to President Banks about it on my mission, but it was always kind of hanging over my head. It wasn't, though. I mean, that sounds really dramatic and it was dramatic in the moment. I did somehow manage to kind of shelve that. I did kind of manage to finally decide the more I looked into it, the more I realized, no, I was telling him the truth. So if I was telling him the truth and I don't have anything I need to worry about. And so that was enough to be able to kind of tap that down. It didn't— it was something I could live with. It wasn't nearly, I think, as scarring as the uncertainty and the confusion that I dealt with as an adolescent. But it was just horrific in the moment, and it was horrific for long enough after the moment that there was always kind of that seed of doubt that I was righteous enough to be on a mission. But I mean, just that entire exchange, to have a stake president not only just give you that much guilt over something that now the Church no longer has any ecclesiastical consequence attached to, but also for him, the first thing he says When he asks the question and I say no, is, "I don't believe you." I mean, what does that do to you? Because I have to believe that I am not the only person that he did that to. I have to believe he did that to every missionary. He says that's a question he asked of all his missionaries. And I have never talked to anybody else who was interviewed by John Huntsman. I'd be really fascinated to do that. If there's anybody listening, who served a mission and left from this— the— no, I said Granite South. That's my stake now. Monument Park. This was the Monument Park Stake. And if anybody else was interviewed by Jon Huntsman and had this experience, I'd be very interested to hear your reaction to it. But so those are my two big painful stories. And I, I just think if there is anybody within the sound of my voice that can be helped by the fact that, you know, I've listened to a podcast, uh, that's kind of an adult sex education podcast and the title of it is You Are Not Broken. And I've always loved that. And I just want, if there's anybody listening to this who's had a terrible experience like I have. With church leadership on this subject. You are not broken. You are not broken. The church messed this one up rather severely, I think. And the church knows it, which is why the church has quietly changed direction. Again, with everything the church does, I wish they would do it openly. I wish they would say— because as I'm saying this, I said this once on this other podcast, and somebody says, oh, I don't believe that. What do you mean the Church— there's no ecclesiastical consequence to masturbation? Where's that in the handbook? Like, I can show it to you in the handbook. It's there. You can go look at it. But the Church, like the Gospel Topics Essays, like Race and the Priesthood, you know, the Church quietly disavows things and moves beyond things, but they never admit they made a mistake. They never admit they were wrong. And when they change, they never tell you that they have changed, which means just like people we've interviewed on this podcast that disavowed ideas and things the church no longer teaches still survive and even thrive in corners of the church because the church hasn't actively taken steps to correct them. So that's my big messy story, and those are my confessions.

Well, I'm, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. You said earlier that this affects, you know, affected your self-esteem, your self-worth, how you felt about yourself, how you saw yourself. This is serious stuff. You know, we're talking about sexual health and mental health. You know, the two are very related. I'm not an expert, obviously, but you're sharing, you know, your very personal and profound feelings and thoughts and experiences from that very uncomfortable, judgmental, and, uh, just cold and a little bit cruel, uh, interview that was, um, insensitive and in, in many ways disrespectful. I'm just so sorry that you had to go through that. I'm also sorry the fact to know is probably as a matter of fact that you're not the only one, only young man, uh, young woman has gone through that. You know, remember I said earlier a lot of these bishops and state presidents and general authorities are not trained Yeah, you know, I mean, going into that interview like that and asking that one question like that is just so damaging. I think the closest I got to that was my conversation that I had, an interview I had with President Joel Dunn.

Oh goodness.

A name that you will have heard of many times, but I don't think you met Joel Dunn.

I met him after my mission. I certainly did.

Hey, that's right. The mission reunion. So, so President Joel Dunn, who's the brother of Lawrence Eden, I think, was my mission president from, you know, the, in the '80s there. I think President Banks came in, in July. President Dunn was very, um, military, uh, regimental sergeant major kind of guy. And he asked me straight out, he said, Elder Wilkes, do you masturbate? I went, nope. And he said, well, you know, if you do, God is watching. I was like, what? He said, if you, when you masturbate, God is watching. And I was like, that's just weird. Uh, why would God be watching? I'm not masturbating, but why would God watch me masturbate? I just thought that was just, you know, again, I didn't grow up in the church. I'm a convert. I just thought the whole thing from a, I was seeing things also as a non-member, right? You know, I'd only joined the church a few years ago. And the idea that God was watching me masturbate or anyone masturbate was just plain weird. I didn't say anything, but that was the, you know, that was the strangest interview I'd ever had with, you know, President Dunn. Just jumping back into the pamphlet here again, which is from Elder Packer's talk, and I do recommend, you know, our listeners going online and and downloading this if you want to. It's an extraordinary, I mean, we've not even touched about some of the weirdness and strangeness and just the analogy of the little factory, just so weird. But in one of the sections there, he says here when he's talking, just after his comments about when he shares that experience with that mystery who beat up his companion and he gets that laughter that you talked about when he's during his talk and the congregation laughs. He says this just immediately afterwards. There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind. So he's gone from the little factory analogy, which is just so bizarre, and all the control things that you have to do and, and, and you have to sing a hymn and, and, you know, keep your mind off it and do something else, et cetera, et cetera. Then he's talked about, uh, this missionary beating the crap out of his companion. And then he jumps into this. He says, there is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind with nothing they can do about it. They are just, quote, that way, end quote, or quotation marks, and can only yield to those desires. This is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our pre-mortal life, we were directed into a physical body. There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men, masculine, manly men, manly men. So that's extraordinary, that ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers. Even those who've been drawn into wicked practices and are bound by almost unyielding habits can escape. If one of you seems trapped in that, escape. Go to your father or bishop, please. Your parents, your bishop, the servants of the Lord, uh, the angels of heaven. You can go to the angels of heaven, the ones that have been watching you masturbate, and the Lord himself will help you from it. It's the pamphlet, the comments, right, are just full of extraordinary comments like that. Jungler Adesins, do not tamper with his powers, neither with yourself alone nor with one of your own kind. Never let anyone handle you or touch you, your personal parts, which I can understand what he's doing and why he's doing it. I said at the beginning that I think there was good intent behind this, Jim. I think there was a, well, I know there was a position and belief from the general authorities that If you do this, it has a negative spiritual, emotional, psychological impact. I think there's a correlation, by the way, you might agree with this, between a— certainly from the church leadership perspective at that time in the '70s and '80s, between a lack of understanding of sexual health, clinical sexual health, you know, in those kind of conversations and the understanding we've got right now. And the doctrine and the culture of the church. I just don't think they understood it. And I also, without giving them much credit, I don't— I think the world has become much more knowledgeable in the last 30 years on sexual health. And so to be fair to the leaders, they didn't know about what I said earlier, you know, when I gave that, uh, kind of overview about, you know, some of the benefits of, you know, practicing, um, you know, healthy sexual practices according to, you know, professionals, etc., etc. The church, like any of us, didn't have access to that knowledge or that understanding or that material, and they were thinking and seeing and behaving and acting through this prison, this very strict Orthodox, you know, conservative Presbyterian, you know, very strict, uh, Anglican-type teaching, thinking that I You know, 'cause this, this teaching, by the way, this, um, this is not unique to the church. I remember going to, uh, Sunday school as a kid in the Church of England as a Cub Scout, and they talked a little bit about, uh, this stuff. Uh, I remember conversations about, you know, believe it or not, this was taught, don't masturbate and, and, um, don't go buy dirty magazines. There was no internet back then. And the church thinking, Elder Packer's thinking, comes from that strict orthodox, old-fashioned conservative thinking that a lot of churches had, not just, um, uh, the Mormon Church, but, you know, other churches, uh, we had, or at least taught it, notwithstanding many of them didn't practice that. We look at the situation with the Catholic Church, right, and all the sexual abuse. So, you know, Elder Parker's thinking and speaking like this for a reason. This is who he is. This is his mindset. Don't, you know, don't do anything to turn on the little factory. Go sing a hymn. Go have a, do a prayer. You know, have a prayer. If you look at some of the images, by the way, I find them funny and sad in some ways. In the pamphlet, there's some images of a, of a, a musical cymbal. So presuming, you know, sing a hymn if you're tempted to open the valve in the little factory. Uh, there's an image of someone praying. There's an image of a young man, uh, exercising, you know, sprinting, athletic. And then there's another image next to it I can see of someone that looks quite guilty. Um, clearly has just been asked the question from Elder Huntsman. Uh, he's probably not giving the same answer that you, uh, that you gave. And I, I probably shouldn't joke, but I can see— I said at the beginning, there's so many layers of emotion. This is— I see the funny side to it in some ways. I see the dangerous side. I see the, uh, you know, very dangerous things about, you know, it, uh, you know, masturbating leads to homosexuality and, and turning gay, etc. Um, but this is Elder Packer, uh, I won't use the word book, it negates what I said earlier, but however, this is Elder Packer thinking and speaking that way for a reason. This is his mindset. This is the culture. That was the doctrine. That was the position. And that's what the church did and what's what they said back then. And of course, you know, things have moved on. Uh, fast forward to now. You can serve a mission if you masturbate. I think you're told not to. He told her, you know, stop it, refrain from it. If you masturbate, you can stay on your mission, you can go on a mission. Things have changed there. I don't think that's communicated in a broadcast. I don't think the church would stand up and say, you know, announce that in some memo or some policy change. But if the, you know, if these kids, if they were strict to the old-fashioned way of thinking that if you're serving a mission and you're masturbating, there'd be no missionaries out there. The church would come to a stop. I mean, that's probably unfair. I'm not suggesting everybody, all the missionaries out there are masturbating, but—

I'm happy to suggest that.

Are you okay? Proper, might be. I don't know. I don't know. But I know, suspect, you know, Many are, but it was a shame.

When I was in Dundee, so this would have been about 6 months into my mission, there came an edict down from on high that everyone was supposed to place a Book of Mormon in their bathroom on top of the toilet. Do you remember that?

I do. I remember that.

And that was the instruction. But the instruction was that that will help you if you are tempted. Again, all of the kind of shadowy silence and shame. Nobody said, "This is— if you want to masturbate, read the Book of Mormon instead." But that's clearly what they were saying. But yeah, it was clearly an issue in our mission. It was clearly a reality. And it's— I've talked to mission presidents since people who've been mission presidents. I actually ended up talking to my uncle Howard, who was a mission president in Los Angeles, and he later— after he served as a mission president in Los Angeles, he decided he wanted to live there. I lived in his house while I went to the University of Southern California, and I considered Uncle Howard kind of my second father. And, um, I actually remember— so now this isn't— I haven't thought about this for years. So Uncle Howard was also the LA Stake President, and, um, I remember talking to him about Joel J. Dunn, of all people, because Joel J. Dunn at one point had told my trainer, Elder Hansen, Jim Bennett, who was your companion as well. Love that guy.

Yes.

Yes. I haven't heard from him forever. I need to find him. Um, but he, um, he told me that at one point, and correct me if I'm wrong, at one point President Dunn told the missionaries, don't exercise because it's carnal. Worrying about your body is carnal. You should, so don't waste time exercising. Did he actually say that? No. You don't remember him saying that?

No, he might have done. It was just all about just work, knocking on doors and converting baptisms. I don't remember the conversation about not exercise. He never encouraged to exercise, but I don't remember him telling us not to exercise. No.

Oh, okay. Well, I may be misremembering that part of who said that, but no, I don't think I was because then Uncle Howard just went, geez, they don't exercise. You're going to have a tremendous problem with masturbation. He's like, I told my missionaries to exercise as much as they possibly could, because that's the only physical outlet you're allowed on your mission. So, you know, he was just— as he talked about it, he's like, that's the stupidest thing you could do, because all they're going to do then is masturbate. So, you know, and he was a mission president in the what? Early '60s, maybe '50s. I don't think he's that old, but he was very young as a mission president. He was in his 30s when he was called as a mission president. But, you know, this has been with us. Masturbate— it's not as if Boyd K. Packer suddenly discovered masturbation or invented masturbation. It has been going on since the beginning of time. And, you know, the idea that this is such a terrible, sinful, awful thing has destroyed a great number of lives in and out of the church. I think it's just— I don't know. Uh, sorry, I just ranted on.

It's okay. It's a very interesting— it's a very serious topic. It's like we talk about, you know, mental health here. But, um, in, uh, in, you know, I think we, as we wrap up this podcast, I do recommend to our listeners, uh, if they're interested, is go online, go download, um, this, um, booklet, this pamphlet that Elder Packer, uh, and his team put together. Again, it's titled To Young Men Only. It's from an address given at the previous session of general conference in October 2nd, '76. Extraordinary. There's so much more to it that we've not even got into, um, on this. There's some very interesting, um, uh, points in there in terms of revealing how the pack of things and how the church thinks, for sure. And, um, again, my message to our listeners is, um, and any, uh, young man, young woman in the church, which is going to be contrary to what the church teaches, but masturbation is normal, it's healthy. As we talked about earlier. And I think the advice about going to someone, you know, if you've got questions about this, go talk to somebody that you trust, you know, a friend, even a family member. Be careful about talking to church leaders. If you trust the person, great, but you need to have that relationship where you can absolutely trust them because these are very personal things. These are the most intimate things that you can be talking about with your church leaders or your family, your friends. So judge wisely who you open up to and share your conversations with. I think the message from me before I just ask you to give your closing remarks, Jim Bennett, is masturbation and sexual health, these are, it's a normal practice. You shouldn't feel guilty or shame. And many others, of course, including from your experiences, felt the opposite. We felt intense shame, extraordinary levels of guilt. Crushing is the word I would use with some individuals, not with me. Again, I joined the church at 16, so I have a little bit of perspective, but I've seen situations where a person is so riddled with guilt, it's crushing them. Even like they physically, they cowered down in, in the, in the seat in front of me as a bishop. And, uh, fortunately I've been able to lift them out of that and kind of brought a more balanced perspective to that, that this is, look, this is really not that serious at all. Um, just if it affects you so much, just stop it. And I think they're quite shocked actually at the, um, lightness in, in that way that I bring to those situations where people feel crushed and, um, destroyed by the guilt. Guilt has so, uh, is so crushing and so destroying and affects people's self-esteem and self-worth. And it's just awful to see people go through that. So my message is that if you, you know, if you have questions about the subject, go see a professional. Go see a friend, family member, someone that you can trust. But it, you are, it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. You're normal, you're healthy, you're good, you're as good as anyone else. You really are. And, uh, they, they'll be my closing remarks on that. Do you have any final comments or remarks or advice, Jim, from your experience?

Sure. Um, uh, I would echo all of that. I, but just the most important thing, I think, is you are not broken. I mean, I said that earlier, but I think that's the summary here. Our last episode was this whole idea of you are enough. And I'm really heartened by a lot of people who reached out to us who said, wow, you know, this is something I've dealt with my whole life. I always felt inadequate. I always felt like I'm not enough. It's so lovely to hear that I am enough. I particularly on this issue, the church, I, I love the church. I'm not leaving the church. I'm not trying to tear down the church. I want to make that clear here. The church, like all of us, is learning and growing and making mistakes along the way. And this was a mistake that didn't really matter to a lot of people. A lot of people sort of got through this unscathed. They got that pamphlet and probably may not even have even read it. But this is a mistake that did a great deal of damage to me. And I would be willing to bet that it did a great deal of damage to others as well. And I have reached a point now where I think it's essential that even, I mean, just saying words like masturbation and penis and You know, these are the kinds of things that particularly in the 1970s, you just, you just— there was such a cultural taboo to saying things that were that explicit. We need to get over that. We need to accept the reality that we're all human beings, we're all sexual human beings, and that You should not spend your adolescence or really any part of your life terrified of your own body the way I did. And I, you know, I just, I really wish the church— I'm grateful the church has sort of moved beyond this, although they haven't moved beyond it as far as I would like. I really wish the church would, would open up. And admit and take responsibility and accountability for the damage that this pamphlet and these kinds of teachings have done to so many people. But if you are somebody that was damaged by this, know of our love for you at least. Ian and I are so grateful to hear from people like you when you when you tell us that this has been helpful to you to hear these kinds of things discussed. But I am confident in saying your Heavenly Father loves you as well. Jesus Christ loves you as well. And to the extent that you have been falsely told that this practice somehow is going to damage you eternally, I just hope you are able to let that go because it's not true, it's not helpful, and you are not broken. So that's my summation.

Jim Bennett, I agree with all of that. I have nothing more to add. I want to take this opportunity to thank our listeners. I'm grateful that our conversations continue to help people. That is why we do this. To all listeners, thank you so much. And, uh, we look forward to, uh, our next, uh, podcast with you, uh, in, uh, in about a week or so. So thank you to everyone. Have a great week. And Jim Bennett, thank you. See you.

Thank you, Ian Bennett.