004 Judy Hoberman –– Selling in a Skirt

Welcome to Walking the Walk, the program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start Walking the Walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Men and women are different. As Judy Hoberman says, women want to be treated equally, not identically. America's foremost gender and sales expert, Judy Holmerman, joins us today on Walking the Walk. After 30 years of sales and business leadership, Judy really gives a powerful perspective on how men and women sell, manage, recruit, and supervise differently. And she'll teach you how both genders can support each other's successes in a more productive way. Judy also hosts a weekly radio show called Selling in a Skirt and is featured as the gender expert on Fox News Radio. You've seen her on CNN Headlines, ABC, CBS, and you've read her articles in Small Business Trends, the Dallas Morning News, and Texas CEO Magazine. I gotta tell you, her recent TED Talk, The Greatest Missed Opportunity, is one of the best you're ever gonna see. It's a real honor to welcome Judy Hoberman to Walking the Walk. How you doing, Judy?

I'm awesome. How are you? I'm so excited to be here. I couldn't wait for Friday to get here.

Me too, you know, especially because sometimes when people are calling from warm, sunny Texas I think that somehow vicariously you're going to send me some nice warm vibes.

I am sending you vibes. I am. But you have to remember in Texas we get 4 seasons in 1 day. So don't be jealous.

That's all right. There you go. Judy, to start things off, I know as a woman and as a leader, you had to face some impressive challenges, we'll call it that, in your life and your career. So to the extent you feel comfortable, can you share some of those experiences, kind of set the ground for us?

Yikes. Well, some of the things that have happened have actually been blessings in disguise because I had to come up with my own way of doing business, right? Because I worked only with men, so I had to come up with a way to be successful with that. Um, I was always told that I was such a girl and I took too long on appointments and everybody had to be my friend and I asked too many questions. But the truth of the matter was I realized very early on that when you build a relationship with someone, It usually is long-lasting and you build them before you need them. You know, I've had my share of people making rude comments and things like that, but you know what? That was part of then. And I, you know, I can't say that it's changed 100% now, but that was part of then and I just ignored or I just, you know, responded back and, and, you know, put people in their place when they needed it. But I learned a lot working with men. Men are very decisive and I liked that. I like the fact that they made decisions quickly. But I also realized very quickly that they would go in, out, get the check and be done. Next. And I didn't want to do that. So that was a big challenge for me being reprimanded all the time because I took so much time.

Well, that idea of too many questions, that really stuck out because you and I both make a pretty decent living teaching people to ask more questions, right? And to be receptive to input. So it's strange that that was the challenge at the time. Time. And I have to tell you, I think I've told you this before, I came, come at this from kind of a different perspective than a lot of guys because in one past life I worked in television and I worked for women. Most of the directors that I worked for were women there. And I know that was kind of unusual at that time, but so that's the perception I got. And I did, yeah, I saw a lot of differences, I suppose, but overall it was pretty receptive as Are the times changing, I guess is what I'm getting at, or are we still facing some of the heritage challenges, let's say, with the gender differences, especially in leadership?

There are so many things that have changed, and there are more opportunities for women in leadership every single day, every single year, but there are still challenges because there are still the fact that a lot of women don't want to ruin a relationship by talking about money or by being outspoken. There are still a lot of men that will say, well, you know, that you're too bossy as opposed to he is appropriate being aggressive. So that kind of stuff will still happen in the business world. And you also have to remember that some of the very, very male-dominated industries are looking at women as a number and a quota. Really? Yeah. And when you talk to them and you tell them like what the advantages are of having women in the business and in leadership, they step back and they go, I never thought of it like that. So I think that that is changing. You know, I was never welcomed when I first walked in because they thought, oh my God, she's just gonna just take so much of our time because we have to train her differently. And that wasn't the case. When they got to know me and they got to see that, you know, sales are numbers, and when my numbers were really strong, then all of a sudden they would think like, what is she doing that she's writing so much business? So, you know, sometimes you have to prove who you are and prove it for a while, and then sometimes people will say, "Wow, you know, she really does have it going on." So I think some things have changed, but I don't think it's ever going to be 100% different.

Yeah, no, and we wouldn't want it to be, right? But going back to that idea that you still say that— I like the way you say it— women want to be treated equally, right, not identically.

Exactly, exactly.

Let's dig into that a little bit more too. What exactly do you mean by that, and is that Is that still something that's pervasive, or is it something that you see a lot of healthy change going on? And in that, and I know I'm complicating the question, but are you seeing men make any sacrifices that are gonna cause them to be less admirable in your eyes? Because like I said, you like the fact that men were strong and decisive in the workplace.

Well, first let's go into the equal, not identical. The truth of the matter is women wanna be given the same opportunities. And so the equal part are the opportunities. Opportunities. They still want to be able to, you know, do the same positions that men do, but they don't want to have to be treated the same exact way. Because a lot of times, if you think about it, you know, men are men. They talk differently to each other, whereas if they would have the same conversations with a woman, may not be appropriate. But let's go the other way. Women talk differently to women, and some of the conversations are not appropriate for men. Amen.

I heard them.

I'm sure you have. So that's what I'm saying. So, you know, we just want the same opportunities. What we do with them when we get them is a totally different topic for a totally different day. But the truth is we don't wanna be men because it's not only confusing to others, it's confusing to us. How do we behave with some feminine qualities? And a lot of the things that I talk about are the inherent feminine qualities that women have that either they don't show, they hide them, whatever it is, because sometimes women do believe they have to be more masculine. So going forward, you know, do men think like that? Do men not think like that? Again, when you explain it, most men will get it. They're always going to be, you know, the outliers of men and women that don't get it. So, you know, we can't make a big generalization that everybody understands that men are different than women. Men do this, women do that. But the bottom line is neither is right or wrong, neither better or worse. They are different. And when you take those differences and you create assets instead of liabilities, can you just imagine how much stronger the teams are or how much stronger the company is and how much more you can, you know, the revenue goes up because people are working together with different qualities and sharing them.

You know, we're always so singing in harmony because one of the thoughts that I share a lot is that I don't like that cliché that diversity makes us stronger. Diversity makes us interesting. The fact that we can work together despite our differences and embrace those differences and, right, combine them in harmony to make them true strengths, that's really what moves things forward. And we should mention too a couple things. First of all, yes, join in on the chat. We've got a couple people. We're going to get to a couple of questions there in just a minute. And Judy, that's a big part of your work too, is that it's not only that you're pitching to women to help them understand how to move forward in spite of these differences, but you teach men right? How to respond to that. And along with that, of course, I just wanted to add the thought that just as you said women are adapting some traditionally male qualities, I believe that men are adapting a lot of traditionally female qualities too. For instance, the willingness to listen that you talked about and to consider things, I think, a little bit more deliberately at times.

Yeah, and you know, one of the major features that women bring to the table is the relationships relationship building skills. And yes, there are plenty of men that are relationship driven, but if you think about it, that is a female trait. And a lot of the male CEOs are saying to their teams of women, why don't you go and have lunch with Jim? In other words, that's translated as, when you build a relationship with him, without saying let's build a relationship. So they're starting to see that some of the things that women bring to the table are really advantageous. They do major studies about women in management and what it does to the, you know, the ROI and what it does to sales and what it does to everything. So it does change the way people look at each other. Now, yes, there are many, many, many men that have the same wonderful qualities that women have, and there are many, many women that have the same qual— wonderful qualities that men have. But just use them in your gender. You know what I mean? Like, don't, don't become Don't become the woman that is, you know, so masculine and instead of being generous and, you know, and sharing and paying it forward or things like that, you're being this, you know, this tyrant of a mentor. You're still mentoring but you're being a tyrant. And the same way for men, you know, instead of hiding the fact that you like to build relationships or that you like to listen or whatever, just do it. Because people will start to notice. They do. And the listening part is critical. And I'll give you a perfect example. In sales, a person that— a male manager will ask a female salesperson, "Did you make the sale?" So what's the answer? It's yes or no, right? Right. Well, that's all they're waiting for is yes or no. But I, as the female salesperson, want to say, "I didn't, and I want to let you know, you know, if you would give me the chance to finish the sentence, it would have been while I was there, they got a call from "and their child got hurt, so I'm going back tomorrow to pick up the check." Okay, but you didn't give me that opportunity.

Right, right.

And so the listening is not just the yes or no. The listening is actually allowing each other to speak in the, you know, where you're comfortable. Women tell stories, men talk in bullet points. You know, so you have to adapt to who you're listening to, and sometimes we don't give each other a chance.

Well, and again, I wanna make sure that I'm going to make this pitch for you because for people that are listening, this is what Judy teaches in her programs. And one thing that both genders do, I think, very well if we're willing to, is to learn and to adapt new ideas. So it really doesn't matter. She's not teaching just women, is the point I want to make. Men will get as much, if not more, out of her workshops than probably women will. Right? Because a lot of times it's validation. You hit some really crucial points, that idea of listening to the full answer, because the yes and no, and particularly in sales, I think that's hard for us to grasp onto sometimes, especially if you're in a management position, right? And your reports are coming back. You want to understand the results, but sometimes the answer is, no, I didn't make a sale, right? The emphasis isn't always on closing all the— what's that Glen Gary Glen Ross thing? Always be closing.

Always be closing.

Which I say, yeah, if you're selling crap, right? You got to get the—

The leads are for the good people.

Yeah, before they change their mind. But these days, when we're talking about a longer-term, hopefully a longer-term relationship in the sales process, then sometimes the answer is, "No, I didn't make the sale, but you know what? They understand us a lot better now," or "We've moved this relationship further." Those are appropriate responses, right?

Absolutely. But the point is that the question was a yes or no question, and that's what they're listening for. You have to be able to get that in really fast. You know, like, don't take a breath going because that's not what they want to hear. Now, you know, a lot of times men will say to me, I, you know, I just can't listen to the story. And I get, and I get that because we are storytellers and, and unfortunately or fortunately, that's how people learn by stories.

I'm laughing because, you know, I'm, I'm guilty of that as well. And sometimes, you know, I already know what the outcome is. So then, okay, that's fine. We know, let's move along. And we have to take our time, right? And sit back and and do that. Plus, you know, there's some, really there's some information coded in those stories sometimes that we might not be privy to if we don't take that time and valuable.

Right, well, I remember one of the very first training classes that I did for an insurance company. When I was done, the person that had brought me in said to me, it was great, but don't tell any more stories. And this is exactly how it was said, all you salespeople like to do is tell stories. So I said to her, You know, insurance is not the most glamorous thing to talk about. When you tell a story, that's how people remember. So, P.S., we got the surveys back and every single survey said, oh my God, Judy's stories were the best.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and so she said, I apologize, and she never said anything again when she brought me back in. The point is that men tell great stories and they're, you know, they're very pointed, and so do women. So allow us to tell the story. Don't make it a 75-page story. Just get to the point. But the same way You know, there is truth in the matter about bullet points also. If you are sending me an email and I open up the email and all I see is a dissertation, I probably am not going to read it. But if you had sent me an email with a little blurb and your top 3 bullet points, I am definitely going to come back and say, "Okay, Jim, tell me about the second one." So there starts that relationship. So you have to really be able to go You know, here's a story, here's the bullet points, and here's like a little combination, like the hybrid, a little blurb and, you know, just a little point there. And it works for both genders.

It's really just gauging the style of communication to the appropriate platform, right? And that's, that's something that's a huge, huge issue right now all over the place anyway.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Hey, we've got a great question that just came in, and this is from Lynn Breon, who actually I know Lynn. He's a terrific leadership trainer as well. And He asks, for the women listening, what are the arguments you've made that resonate most with male leaders to get them to understand the benefits of women in leadership?

OK, thanks, Lynn, for the great question. So here's the deal. The argument is not an argument. Let's just start with that.

That's very Zen of you. There you go.

Well, because I'm very careful with words matter because I know how it feels when people say things to me and I'm like, wait, did you mean it like that? OK, so the suggestion is that we talk about what we bring to the table. To make their life easier. So if I was talking to you, Lynn, and I said, you know, here are some of the things that would help in your business, in your company, in our company, and some of the things would be— and I would list, you know, whether it's relationship skills, whether it was courage, whether it was inspiration, it doesn't matter what it is. What I bring to the table may be different than what the next woman brings to the table, but for me, I would be telling you why these things are important in a leadership role and how it would make your life easier. Because my job is sales, regardless of what my title is. My job is to sell to you why I can make your life easier. Your job to sell to me is by having me in your team, whatever it is, and in engaging me. Okay, so we both are in sales and we're both trying to play the dance or dance the dance, but I have to make sure that what I'm telling you, my qualities as a female in leadership or as a female to help your company, these are the things that will make your life easier. That's really what it is. I mean, we all know that's how sales work, but that truly is what it is. Why do you need to have a female giving you some inspiration and some advice, giving you some— something that's going to help you? That's all it is. I have to make your life easier.

You hit such a core there. I mean, I know a lot of people get aggravated about Ayn Rand these days, but that's exactly what she's saying. It's not about, for all of us, it's not about selfishness. Self-interest is not selfishness, you know, right? And so we are interested most in what can you do for me? Listen, I wanna ask you about the glass ceiling thing, especially in light of what was going on during the presidential campaign, 'cause a lot of old ghosts were brought up, right? But before that, let's make sure people understand. How would you like people to reach you? What's the best way? That you would like that to happen?

Okay, you can always email me because I answer my own emails. It's judy@sellinginaskirt.com. You can go onto my website, same name, Selling in a Skirt. Almost any social media medium I'm on as Selling in a Skirt or Judy Hoberman. And, you know, LinkedIn, I'm Judy Hoberman. They don't let me do Selling in a Skirt. I don't know why, but I mean, I have a page that has Selling in a Skirt, but you can't, you can't look me up like that. So that's what I'm saying. So you can always find me anywhere, but I do answer my own emails. Nobody answers them for me. So I do give you, you know, personal time.

Yeah, I just added that to my LinkedIn request list now. So let's get back to, like I said, during the presidential campaign, you know, Hillary Clinton brought up a lot of talk about this glass ceiling again, that 70 cents on the dollar argument came up again, and I heard it refuted many, many times as well. But I want to be, you know, I want to be open-minded about it. Is there still this glass ceiling? Are there legitimate reasons for this 70 cents on the dollar phenomena? Because I know that, you know, when you dig into it, it looks a little bit differently. And, you know, one of the interesting counter pieces of research that we saw the last few years is that women are rapidly outpacing men if you look at the higher positions of authority. And we know— I know both of us make that distinction, management and leadership are two different things. But as people are rising that ladder, rising up that ladder, women are making more than men in a lot of these positions now. So am I seeing the same thing that you're seeing? Is there still a glass ceiling or have you guys broken it?

Well, you know, there's always going to be a glass ceiling depending on, you know, who you are, where you are, what industry you're in. There'll always be some kind of glass ceiling. But in reality, there's been a lot of studies that show because of the additional opportunities that women now have, like in STEM for instance, women, young women that are graduating now are actually making more than men that are graduating now, right? Okay. Beforehand, it was the industry that you chose, the profession you chose, that more men chose things that were higher paying, where sales is kind of like an even steven because it really is based on your numbers. So, you know, you know, you have to—

the great equalizer, right?

The great equalizer. It really is. You know, commission is commission. Everybody has the same commission, unless of course you're not paid the same thing. But the, the 77 cents, it is, is something that women really are unhappy with and should be unhappy with because it is that women are not paid the same as men. But again, you have to look at all the factors. Is it the same, you know, apples to apples, or is it apples to oranges? You know, I truly believe that we should be paid the same exact thing. And I had a case where the contract that I was given, um, was given to me in error. It was actually for my male counterpart. And so I called and said, oh, I think I got the wrong contract. And she goes, oh, let me send you the right one. And she sent it in and it was $20,000 less.

Oh yeah.

And so—

That's it, right? You're talking about on par. So if somebody is in office number 364 and the salary for that is blah, blah, blah, then it doesn't matter.

It should be the same. It should be the same. Exactly.

Right.

She did raise my salary. She did raise that contract because she said, oh, I'm so sorry. It must have been a typo. I could have probably owned the company had it— Right.

That's what I was just going to say, right? Why don't more women, because the laws, the equal pay laws have been in place, my God, since at least Jimmy Carter, right? And why don't more women pursue that when there is a legitimate discrimination?

You have to actually be able to prove that it is discrimination, and sometimes you can and sometimes you can't, and that's why I'm saying you have to really have everything in place before you pursue that. I had it in black and white. Yeah, they messed up, didn't they? Yeah, you know, quote-unquote typo. But truthfully, today there's a lot of women starting out that are starting out on a higher pay scale than men. So now you can say, well, is that fair? It's going in cycles again. But because the opportunities are different, because women are choosing professions that are higher paying than they were before, That's what the equalizer is.

Yeah, that's where my kind of libertarian sensibilities pop up where I say, is it fair? Well, define fairness really in a real workable sense. And women, it's responding to the market, right? People are, companies are recognizing. I heard one great argument too that if it were actually on par, 70 cents to a dollar, still, wouldn't these greedy, horrible business people be just hiring women because they get a bargain? So there's that.

Well, and that's a great argument, And that's a great argument. I mean, is that what would happen? Who knows? Who knows?

Right. But if men are feeling like they're getting the short end of the stick now, my response would be the same as it's been to anybody for years. Well, then do something differently, right? Make sure that you're positioning yourself for higher salary if that's what you want. But I guess we're going down a wormhole with that one, huh?

Yeah.

Let's talk. Let's get back because the STEM thing is huge right now. And we work with a lot of folks in our Aspiring Leader program that are in those professions. And, you know, across the spectrum, I mean, really, I don't see that many differences. But I do see younger women embracing these things a little bit more, but there's still a disparity. And sometimes I see kind of a debate waging amongst the young women themselves. You know, there seems to be an emerging hierarchy. Well, I am going into the STEM thing, so I'm somewhat special, right? So you could do the same thing. Is there any way to reconcile that or to encourage more women to pursue these things, or do we just have to accept that there is still, and maybe always will be, some kind of societal— I don't want to say pressure, but a societal norm that says that yes, some women are going to choose to, you know, stay home and nurture the kids, and that's okay too.

Okay, but just take that point because there's a lot more men that are staying home now to take care of their kids. Oh, right, right. I have a couple of Mr.

Mom friends now, yeah.

Yes, and I applaud them because what they're doing now is what women have done forever. Is they're supporting their spouse. And I think that that's a, that's a great thing. But as far as encouraging more women to get involved in STEM, there are lots of organizations and associations out there that are, you know, going to universities and colleges and, and high schools and telling, you know, showing women what's available to them. A lot of times it's not on our radar, you know. We, we don't necessarily think that Wow, I should be going into engineering. And I, I mean, I was just at a conference and I had like 3 or 4 different women that were engineers.

Right.

Now some of them are still in engineering and some of them are not. They're in their own business consulting. But, you know, so there's a lot more women that have the opportunity. When I was going to college, my mom said to me, you know, what do you want to go to school for? And I said, I want to be a doctor. And these were her exact words. Honey, honey, honey, honey, girls are not doctors. They're nurses, they're secretaries, you know, they're teachers. They're not doctors. And my mom was, you know, pretty much, you know, up to par with what women were doing. My grandmother, on the other hand, now, so we're gonna skip a generation. My grandmother said, oh honey, you can be anything you want.

She was the radical, huh?

She was, she was. That's what I'm saying. So, you know, even though we're telling our girls, You can do, you can be. There's now commercials all over TV showing you like do this or do that. There's games out there and whatever, but you still have to enjoy it. You know, just because it's available doesn't mean that you like math and science. You know, I mean—

And I like what you were saying earlier too. You know, there's this idea too that there's a lack of femininity sometimes in some of these careers. And you know, I have some female friends who are very, very masculine, some who really, you know, put out the, the image, a very masculine image. And that's cool, you know, if that's who you are, that's, that's cool. But you don't have to— if you want to project a feminine, uh, image or live a feminine lifestyle, you don't have to sacrifice that to get into these areas. And, you know, one of the— I know this group you work with is as well, and I think it's one of the best groups promoting these things, is, is NAWIC, the National Association of Women in Construction, right?

Absolutely.

That's an enlightened bunch of folks, and, and they really are pushing hard to make sure that that people understand, especially young women understand, there are opportunities, right? And for them, it's not just swinging the hammer. That's one of their greatest challenges, that yes, you can become engineers, managers, administrators, or executives, right?

Absolutely. And, you know, and I started in construction. I mean, I was in sales and commercial roofing. I started there. So when I first started speaking for NAWIC, I mean, I would tell the story about being on a roof and they would all crack up because been there, done that. Right. You know, they all get it. But you're right, it doesn't mean that, you know, you have to do something that is very male-dominated or something that you don't like. You can do other things. There's a huge opportunity in construction, in material handling, in supply chain. There's all these great opportunities. The problem is that they have an image issue, because when you read the name, you're like, I don't want to do that. It's the same thing, all of the women's associations. Men believe that they're not invited because it says women in women in construction, women in financial, women in whatever. And that's not what it says at all. They're inviting women. And if you are a man that wants to work with women and do it in the right way, you're more than welcome. The same way, just because it is construction or it is material handling or whatever, it doesn't mean that women aren't invited, even though you see pictures of men swinging hammers or climbing ladders or whatever. It just means if you want to do it in the right way, you're invited. So it goes both ways. That's what I'm saying. We just have to be more open to opportunities, both male and female, because the opportunities are not going to show up on your doorstep in a box with a really pretty bow.

Yeah, amen, right? Right?

You have to be open to opportunities. That's what it is.

And again, that's something for anybody. But you know, you caused some flashbacks for me. And this is not just You know, it's more, it's more a generational thing than a gender thing, I think, but correct me if I'm wrong. I'm open to be corrected. Uh, you know, years ago, one of my past lives, when I first got out of high school actually, I worked in a shipyard down in Connecticut. And at that time, a lot of women were moving into the trades there. We— I was a pipefitter, and we had a lot of women in our shop. It wasn't half, but it was a significant number. And, you know, they were A lot of them were very— they were feminine, they were women, some of them were married. We actually had a couple of married couples that worked in the shop, which was kind of interesting. And then there were some that were really the, you know, the tough, the tough, you know, woman kind of thing. And that was all cool too. But I'll tell you what, when guys— and they started clamping down on this— but when guys were a little bit abusive verbally and things like that, these women stood up for themselves. I mean, they weren't backing down. And I can remember actually a physical encounter where somebody had to do with race and gender And let me tell you, the guy who opened his mouth regretted it that day. I don't think I ever saw him again after that day. And we got a big kick out of that. This new generation though, and I say generation more than the gender, are we a little bit too thin-skinned, you know, the younger folks? Because now it seems like every insult is met with protest, reaction, wanting, seeking a safe zone instead of just standing up and saying, hey, you know what? You're not saying that to me.

Well, I will tell you that I think that everybody is very, you know, for lack of a better term, touchy these days. You know, everything, anything that anybody says, they're taking offense to it, where years ago it would have been a conversation. I had an incident where a man, and I would have said gentleman, but he wasn't, a man said like really ugly things to me, really ugly, and then he kept saying uglier things. And finally I said to him, what would happen if somebody said this to your daughter? And he said, you're not my daughter. I said, but I am someone's daughter.

Mm-hmm.

And he never said it again.

Right.

Okay. So I, I, you know, but you have to also remember that HR has a much more powerful role today than they did years ago. First of all, we didn't have any HR. Right. Okay. So that was one thing. So you had to take care of it yourself. And if you went and complained, then you are the troublemaker and then you might've lost your job or whatever. Today there's at least HR. Unfortunately, people are using HR like, you know, like a security blanket, and that's not good either. So I think that yes, I do think that people are more— I don't know if it's thin-skinned or they're trying to be quote-unquote politically correct about everything, and that's not good either.

I hate those words, right?

I know, they just— it makes me crazy. But I do think that people should stand up for themselves in an appropriate and professional manner.

Amen. Amen. Absolutely. And to that respect, you know, Sometimes it is the right and appropriate action to go to HR to take it to somebody else. Absolutely. But a lot of times, there's just so many things that could just be handled in the moment. And I like the way— I like your response because you sometimes open someone's eyes a bit, don't you? They look at it a little bit differently than they might have before. I didn't consider it that way, right?

Well, he just said to me, I didn't realize you were intelligent. That was the end of that.

Well, personally, I think you should have busted him in the chops. But we'll save that for another show.

Yeah, absolutely.

When is it appropriate? I'm always— because of my background, people are always throwing this at me. They say violence is not a solution. I said, obviously you're not an enlightened person. Violence is very often the solution, but it should be the solution of last resort.

But absolutely.

But sometimes that last resort comes up very, very quickly, right? So yeah, there you go.

No time to think about it.

Yeah, we'll save that for another day. So anyway, you know, it's been a pleasure. Uh, you know, we'd love to have you back. Uh, obviously if you're willing, let's, let's make you one of our regulars. Is that cool?

Absolutely. It would be my honor and my privilege.

All right, good. So I think folks can look forward to a lot more wisdom from, from Judy Hoberman. And let's one more time tell people, how, how do you best feel comfortable with folks reaching out to you?

Please email me judy@sellinginaskirt.com. Again, I answer my own emails. If you have any questions, please feel free. My website has a ton of things that you can just pull down and you read and listen to and whatever, and that's sellinginaskirt.com. I'm on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and Pinterest and LinkedIn, Judy Hoberman and/or Selling in a Skirt. So I look forward to hearing from you.

And I'm gonna give another pitch. Please go listen to Judy's TED Talk, The Greatest Missed Opportunity. It's very easy to find on YouTube, and you're really gonna appreciate watching that talk. It was really a beautiful Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Oh, absolutely. Okay, I'm going to put in one more pitch. Look, if you're dealing with gender issues, or I'd say before you even deal with gender issues, let's make it a proactive thing. You know, bringing more women into your organization is absolutely one of the most powerful things you can do these days for a number of reasons. Judy is the expert there. She'll share that with you. That's what her training and her workshops are all about. Every organization out there should, should give Judy a call. I'm not going to say to see if she's a great fit for you. She is a great fit for you. So give her a shout. Okay.

And you go.

All right, Judy, we'll have you back very soon. Thank you so much.

Thank you. And you have a wonderful day. And thank you again. I really appreciate it.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Thanks.

Thanks for listening to Walking the Walk. Please share this episode. We encourage We encourage you to download and share the program with both experienced and aspiring leaders in your network. We also encourage you to suggest guests for future episodes. Complete information at walkingthewalkpodcast.com. Jim Bouchard is in high demand presenting keynotes and workshops for conference, corporate, and community audiences all over the world. To book Jim for your next event, meeting, or retreat, visit thatblackbeltguy.com Or call Alexandra Armstrong at 207-751-4317.