005 Lynn Breon –– Layman Leadership

All too often, subject matter experts or top performers are promoted into leadership positions. But when it comes to leading others, they are very much layman. Lynn Brion, founder of Layman Leadership, has the solution today on Walking the Walk.

Welcome to Walking the Walk, the program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start walking the walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

You know, Lynn is a former active duty Marine with over 20 years of leadership training and mentoring experience across military, federal, civilian service, and private sectors. Lynn Brion focuses on a core group of fundamentals that have been proven through time to work universally, and this is the foundation of what he calls Layman Leadership. Lynn, thanks for being with us today.

Yeah, Jim, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Oh no, seriously. And for folks who had tuned in the first time, our apologies. We had some technical difficulties. We're back on track and we won't belabor that point anymore.

Nope, we're sounding good now.

Sounds good right now. Great. Okay, Lynn, Simon Sinek has a real popular bestseller on the market. He calls it Leaders Eat Last. And the title I know is based on the Marine Corps tradition that new recruits are fed before officers in the Corps. Can you tell us a little bit more about that tradition and about how your Marine Corps experience contributed to your work today, especially that layman leadership idea?

Well, absolutely. And so that is a great book. I love Leaders Eat Last. I tell folks, if I had one book, you know, the question, if you were stranded on a desert island with one book, what would it be? Leaders Eat Last is that for me. And the idea behind it is it's taking care of of your troops first. And he goes on in the book to talk about how back when, when we were cavemen and women, we developed these natural abilities that we looked for in our leaders. And one of those was, yes, we want to take care of our leaders, but we look for our leaders to take care of us back. And a lot of today's society, it's not that we're upset that these leaders get all these benefits and perks. It's when they get the benefits and perks for themselves and don't look out for their people. Now, that principle or that concept ties in with these 11 leadership principles that every Marine is taught in boot camp, and that's where Lehman Leadership comes from. The foundation of those principles, as you mentioned before, a lot of people get promoted based on their subject matter expertise and not so much their people skills. You know, they're great at what they do technically, but when it comes to being in charge of a team or leading other people, they, they fail at it. So you can be an expert in a field, but you can be a layman at leadership.

No, amen. And we're seeing that especially now, uh, not exclusively, but it's really highlighted in areas like sales. We've worked with some folks in the insurance industry. Real estate has that issue, and they know it. They recognize it, that they tend to promote the top performers. So you might be really good, for instance, what you're saying, right, if I'm hearing you right, in a specific domain, for instance, in the sales process. But that really has— well, it doesn't have anything to do with leading people, even though— and I'm going to give them a little side. They may have some management skills, right? They may have been through the technical side of that, but I know you and I differentiate, uh, the idea of leadership and management very, very distinctly, don't we?

Absolutely. I mean, for me, it's, it's pretty simple. Management is about things and processes, and leadership is about people.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, that's it. I'm glad, I'm glad to see more of the emphasis on the human side. You know, one of the soapboxes I tend to climb on is that You lead people, right, not process. It's very important to manage the process, don't get me wrong. When I was challenged recently, well, what's more important then, Jim, management or leadership? I said, you may as well, you know, ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. They're both important. They're both crucially important. The problem has been that we've, over the last, I'd say, 40 or 50 years, if not a little bit more, we've really lost a lot of the human element of leadership. Would you agree or disagree?

I would say yes. I mean, it's, it's a lot. It's very easy to put somebody in a management position because you have this, this definition of what they should and shouldn't do, and it's about making sure that boxes get checked and the trains run on time. It's a lot harder for the leadership part because they have to know how to really influence people, and that's a big part of military leadership that a lot of a lot of people haven't served don't get. They think it's, you know, about the weight on the collar and barking orders and having troops just jump to because they have to. That's an aspect of it. I mean, that can happen, but the really great leaders in the military don't rely on that. They rely on influencing their subordinates. They rely on building those relationships. That way, when they're faced with those instances, where you need the whole team to come together. They know who they can rely on, who not to rely on, and the team works together as one cohesive unit because those relationships are that deep.

Yeah, because that barking orders thing isn't even— even in something as disciplined as the Marine Corps, and you know, I know you and I've talked about this, one of my greatest regrets is I have— I've never served. I was a firefighter though when I was— when I was a kid. I remember that, and I'm not— believe me, I'm not equating this with the military, but football, you know, there's certain situations where that command and control process works well and it's effective. But you're not going to follow a leader very long just because they're— even if they're barking the right orders, you're not going to follow a leader very long because they're barking orders. So, you know, one of the— I should make a t-shirt of this. I'd go around saying, people follow examples much more enthusiastically than they do orders. Now, from my understanding, from you and other, other friends of mine who, you know, served especially— I hate to say this this way, but especially in the Marine Corps, because you've, you've isolated these things so, so incredibly, uh, you understand that, right? And so when you're building leaders, you're not building people that are just good at command and control. You're building people that are willing and want to do the work, right, to become good examples for others. And those are the people who are going to earn the trust of the troops. Is it— am I way off base, or is that Is that somewhere in the ballpark?

No, that's absolutely right. I mean, every Marine is built on a standard, and you have people that fail to meet the standard, and they typically don't last very long. But you have people who hit the standard and elevate. And it's— so the Marines, I'm partial to them, I've got a bias, obviously, being a Marine myself, you know, but But the other unit that really does a good job at that is the Army. All the branches do a pretty decent job at it.

Right, right, exactly.

It's, it's the ones you see that have what we like to say now, boots on the ground, that really understand that impact. And, uh, just to backtrack what you said about service, I mean, being a firefighter and the things you do now, that's a great service to the nation as well. We need people out there, you know, fighting fires and policing the streets and putting themselves out there to help close this leadership gap that we have in America.

Yeah, amen. You know, and the leadership gap that we're talking about, it's interesting on a number of levels. There's something that— I don't know how this came to me the other day, but I've got to, I've got to do a blog on it. Uh, I don't think we have a leadership shortage. We have a great demand for more leaders, and yet it's very difficult to get people to stay step up. And I'm going to put a little disclaimer here before we get into this, because of course I know that we're singing in harmony here. Leadership, leadership has nothing to do with a position of authority. It has nothing to do with a certificate, a rank, you know, what office you're sitting in. Leadership is at all levels. However, we do need great leaders in positions of authority, and that's really where the leadership gap is happening, right? How do we get good people to step up and embrace these positions of authority where they're going to be effective in their leadership capacity to help others?

Well, I think a big step towards that from my experiences is we have to get the people who do sit in those positions to get the ego out of the way a little bit. You know, it's great that you're a good leader and you have success, but if you really want to go from being a good leader to a great leader, you take that ego and you set it aside and you realize that you have a responsibility to your organization, whatever the organization is. I don't care if it's a mom-and-pop shop on the street. I don't care if it's federal government. I don't care if it's a Fortune 50 company. You have a responsibility to groom and build that next generation of leaders, and that means opening yourself up to grooming your replacement. It's a scary proposition.

Amen.

But it's critical.

It is, isn't it? And you know, it's interesting, that just came up at an event the other day. Well, it comes up quite often in workshops, and I always ask the same question. They say, you know, what are you afraid of? You've got to be mentoring people. You've got to be developing that next generation. Otherwise, the gap is going to happen, and it does. And I agree with you, it doesn't matter if it's a mom-and-pop operation or if you're the CEO of Walmart. But that idea of getting the ego out of the way is so essential to the process. And that idea that there's threat, right? When you bring somebody up, that there's that threat. We've got to help people get past that. You can only expand your power as a leader through sharing.

Absolutely. And so when I talk to people about mentoring, a lot of folks come into a mentoring relationship thinking it's about essentially about cloning. These are the things that work for me. If I can get somebody to do these same things, they're going to have success. It's not, because as our good friend Dov Baron talks about, authenticity. If, if I'm trying to clone Jim Bouchard and what works for him, that's not me, that's not my style. I'm not going to see the same success because it's not authentic. And the end result should be— or what the goal of mentoring should be is you take that person and help them find their style and learn from what you have learned through your journey and how they can adapt that to their leadership style, apply it to what are already their strengths, and the final product should be someone who is a better leader than you are.

That's the Sensei Method, right? I mean, the, you know, there's so much parallel between— I think that's why I have such an affinity for the military, uh, leadership training, because there's so many parallels with the martial arts training. One of them was getting the ego out of the way, and people confuse that because they think it somehow means that they're going to be weaker, and that's not what we're talking about. Ego is important, but ego has, in a positive sense, needs to be cultivated, and in a negative sense needs to be eradicated. And it's the same thing when you're talking about, you know, um, you know, bringing that next person on board, teaching them, sharing with them, because The ongoing argument, of course, is can leadership truly be taught? And what I've been saying is, oh sure, it can be taught, but it can only be willingly learned, right? I mean, it's not— you're right, it's not about just giving information or cloning. It's about helping that person embrace their own authentic self and their own authentic style and to grow into that role as a leader. Are we singing in harmony on that one too? It's hard because we're not arguing, you know.

Well, no, it is. And so I think the one adjustment I would make is you can teach leadership skills. It's very hard to teach leadership because, as Don Taylor, your previous—

Makes perfect sense, right? Yeah.

Well, right, but leadership is a lot about followership. Exactly. As Colonel Don Taylor talked about, you can't lead if nobody's following. So you can teach the leadership skills, but even then, I, I look— I call leadership is a gift, right? It, it's something that is given to you by the people that choose to follow you. You can have those skills, but if you're not really applying them— there are a lot of people, we talk about subject matter experts, there are a lot of people who have the skills to do certain technical jobs but they don't know how to necessarily apply them, right? And so they end up doing something that's field-related, uh, and not necessarily the field, if that makes sense. So it's the same thing with leadership. You can have the skills, the skills can be taught, but if you don't know how to apply those in a way that gets people to want to follow you, then, then the leadership part of it never materializes.

I couldn't agree more, you know. And one of the foundations— if not, well, probably one of the most important foundations of the whole Sensei Leader philosophy is that a leader is the person who has the ability to develop willing followers and the will to serve them. But emphasis on that word willing. And yes, as Colonel Taylor talked about, one of the greatest skills of a leader is being a good follower. And I know, I believe it's Professor Kelly, Robert E. Kelly, that wrote a lot about that, right? I think he even kind of coined that phrase, followership. A good leader— your follower skills are probably the most important skills to learn and develop in becoming a good leader.

Absolutely. I mean, one of the principles that the Marine Corps teaches that I rely heavily on is ensure the task is understood, led, and accomplished. And the key word in that for this part of the conversation is led. It doesn't say ensure you lead the task. It says ensure the task is led. And this is the one going back to building mentoring and coaching relationships. This is the one where a leader is supposed to sit back and look at the task at hand and ask themselves, am I the best person to lead it, or should I find somebody else on my team? Because this is a strength and I take on a follower role, a support role. And let them shine.

No, absolutely. And that's an aspect, like you said, all the military branches do that very well. I think maybe we're hearing a lot more. The Marine Corps has been sharing a lot of this information, which is really good, especially folks like you that have served and now you're out teaching these things. But at any rate, you know, that idea that, uh, it's funny because, right, the prototypical thought that people might have goes back to what you said earlier. There's this guy wearing some lettuce or whatever you guys call that. What do you call it when you got all the decorations on?

Oh, fruit salad.

Fruit salad, yeah.

Right?

Right, and that's not what it is. I like what Patton said, in fact, one time. Somebody tried to catch him on it, and the quote goes something like this, I'm paraphrasing, but he said, you know, I've been decorated more than I deserve. I've been promoted beyond my my capacity to perform, something like that. But he said, here's the thing, I wear the medals and I wear the rank, but I wear it for you because you're the people that got the job done, and that's why I'm recognized. So I represent you when I wear that. What do you think about that?

Well, I think it's— that's a good quote, and it's, it's very interesting, uh, in that context when you understand Patton's career, you know, because, uh, Patton had all this wild success with his, uh, army and mechanized infantry moving across Europe. But what a lot of people miss is he had a big hiccup in his career after all of that success where he lost a little bit of sight over the troop welfare part. And, you know, there was a big incident where he actually slapped a troop that he thought was, uh, phoning it in, claiming to be sick, and he was sidelined for a little bit because his anger and his attitude, he lost the confidence of the troops. Even after everything he had accomplished. So Patton, he's an all-around great example because he kind of reached the pinnacle, had a little bit of a hiccup, got pulled back in, and then he started building and saw success again, right? So great. Yeah, I was gonna say, so his entire career is a great study in leadership for everything he experienced.

And now we're really hitting, you know, we're kind of dancing around it, but we're really wading into the waters of the transformational leadership idea, right? And I know there's one school that considers that transformational leadership in that you're leading people and organizations through transformation. I would argue continually, that's what life is all about. But at any rate, also transformational leadership to me goes much deeper. And that's why somebody like Patton, somebody like Ben Franklin, Malcolm X, these are so many of my heroes in leadership because these people were continually reshaping themselves, reinventing themselves, learning and growing and adopting outside ideas to shape their leadership. And that's encouraged in the Corps, isn't it? I mean, it really, really is.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I call it, you know, life is a series of crucible moments in which When every one hits you, you have to decide, are you going to melt away or are you going to come out the other side, forge stronger from it? And everything that hits you, every piece of adversity that comes your way is another chance to either become stronger or fold up shop and go home. And yes, the Corps is all about that. I mean, in fact, the final test in Marine Corps boot camp is called the Crucible and, and you know, there are a lot of people that get to that point and that's it. And, uh, so yeah, I— and all the people you named are great examples of that. They've had points in their life where they had to make a decision. Am I going to continue? I know that it's going to be tough, it's going to be difficult, or do I just go with the status quo?

Yeah, I always like to ask too, you know, on a personal level, going to turn it a little bit where You know, you've experienced and you've embraced the responsibility of leadership on so many levels and in some very extreme conditions. What, if any, was your greatest challenge to your identity and performance as a leader? Did you ever have one of those Wayne's World moments where you just said, you know what, I'm not worthy, I shouldn't be here? Would you mind sharing something like that, if it exists at all?

Well, it does, and mine was actually more of a period than a moment. See, my my actual Marine Corps career got cut a little bit short. Uh, I had adverse reactions to the anthrax vaccine. And as much as I love being a Marine today, and at the time there was a period of time where I had a lot of resentment towards the Corps because of that. And I still don't know exactly what the moment was, but I sat back and one day it just kind of hit me like a lightning bolt out of the sky. Yes, that was bad. That was a bad situation to be in. I wish I'd been able to extend my career and maybe even been a 20-year man. But I look back at all the things that it gave me and the skill set and how it set me up to be where I'm at today and be able to have the influence on— in other people's lives that I do. And so I look at it, and while I had a period of time where I there was this identity crisis because I'd wanted to be a Marine. I achieved the title and my career got cut short. But once I come to grips with that and matured a little bit, I had achieved everything I wanted to. I had the skill set. I just maybe didn't have the years behind me that I would like to have had. So, uh, that set me up to be where I am right now. So I look back on it and everything worked out the way it was supposed to.

I love that it seemed to have pivoted on that idea of gratitude. And you know, my, my most, uh, profound lesson, I guess, in gratitude happened when I was, uh, when I made the decision to quit drugs. And you know, that idea— here's, here's, uh, Lynn Breon, big tough Marine Corps guy, right? Because Lynn is a bad man for people. You need to— but understanding something that too many people perceive, uh, some of these characteristics and skills we're talking about as soft in the worst sense of that word. And they're not. These are so crucial. These are so essential that I think that it should be reverse labeled. These should be the hard skills, right? The things that we depend on that are wired into us. And gratitude is certainly one of them. Without that, and on a practical level, all gratitude does is focus you on what you have rather than worrying about what you don't have. No?

No, absolutely. And you know, the Marines, we have a saying, "No better friend, no worse enemy." And, and that's where this comes from, is like the, these, like you said, soft skills. Marines in general, yes, we're tough, we, we have the tough exterior, we can do the job when needs to be, but we would much rather find the peaceful solution. We'd much rather be happy and coexistent than have to put those skills into place. It's kind of that reluctant warrior mentality. We don't have— want to have to put those skills. But if somebody comes calling, we have those tools in our toolbox.

I wish that word reluctant didn't even enter into it, right? That to me, that, that is exactly the definition of a warrior and the difference between a warrior and a thug, right? That the warrior embraces that idea that war is a last result, but the strength in preparation, so on and so forth, not for personal gain, but because it's necessary, right? That sometimes violence is necessary, right?

Absolutely. And, um, trying to remember which Roosevelt it was that talked about, you know, uh, you want to have the biggest stick but not use it.

Yeah, Teddy Roosevelt, right?

Teddy Roosevelt.

We carry the big stick, right?

And that's it, is, is be prepared. Uh, you know, that's with everything going on the, on the world stage today. I think that's the one thing that that I see that, that I guess hurts me the most is how we talk about being a global society, but people are so unaware of what's happening on, on the global scale. And there's a lot that goes play daily that if you are aware of everything, these little pieces, these sound bites from the media, are nowhere near as bad or damning as they sound. At first take.

I think that's where too, I talk about leadership at all levels, where we need leadership in thought more, and we need, we each need to embrace the idea of thought leadership, but not in the clichéd sense that I know, you know, you and I chime in on, on, uh, on the social media once in a while, and most of the time we're on this, on the same side. Sometimes we debate particularly, uh, parts of an issue, not— I think we're mostly in agreement on the bigger things, but You know, that's interesting, and we can do that. We can debate respectfully and have a good time doing it, and that seems to be a lost art. And if we don't get back to that idea of civil debate, reasonable discussion, you know, we're going to be in big trouble. That's an area I think where each of us can embrace that leadership to engage, to become aware, and to engage in that debate with civility.

Absolutely. And again, I hate to keep saying Marine, Marine, Marine, because, you know, I love all my brothers and sisters in arms. But I think that's one thing we see in American politics right now. When you look at everything from Congress on up, there's one figure that really has stayed out of all of the debates that are going on, and that's General James Mattis. And it's because he is, you know, we called him the warrior monk. He's got a lot of nicknames, but he is that cerebral, global-thinking leader, and that's how he avoids a lot of these situations. He thinks everything through from as many angles as possible to make the right decision, not the one he wants to make, not the one somebody else wants him to make, but to get to the right decision based on evidence in hand.

And he's not satisfying his ego along the way, right, by making a declaration that makes him look either right or popular. And isn't that such a an impressive trait for a leader today?

It is. You know, that's again, like I said, it's nice to, when you go out to make a decision or accomplish something, the goal should be to do the right thing, not the popular thing, not the thing that somebody is expecting you to do, but come to the right decision, take the evidence in hand and make the right decision. Sometimes it goes against your, what your beliefs are.

Right.

And that is hard.

It is hard, but, uh, you know, leadership in the sense that we're, that we're sharing with people has nothing to do with, with comfort, does it?

Well, no, it's, it's uncomfortable. I mean, and it's, uh, sometimes it's very uncomfortable. Sometimes it's very easy. And when things are going smooth, it's easy to kind of set back and get lost in, in the success. And get a little lazy. But you're right, if you're doing it right, there's going to be as many uncomfortable moments as there are comfortable because you're adding new people, you're adding new problems, and you're looking for problems that, that you, your team, your organization can help influence and, and achieve.

Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a— actually, that's a very excellent way to to start wrapping things up. But before we wrap it up, I want to make sure people understand how to get in touch with you too. I know you've had some transition with that, but you've still got the blog going. I think you have a podcast going. How can folks reach out and contact you?

Um, so you can find me— probably one of the easier ways is on Twitter. I'm @Earl_Breon. Last name is B-R-E-O-N. You can find me on Facebook at facebook.com /laymanleadership. Uh, that layman leadership's all one word. And my website is just earlbreon.com. I don't have an outward-facing podcast right now because with my day job I do a couple of internal podcasts, but an outward-facing podcast is something I'm— I've been kicking around the idea of doing, but that's not live yet.

I hope it is soon because you've got so much to share. And you know, you have an open invitation here if something strikes you or there's an idea you want to you want to promote and share, please just reach out and we'll have you on again and have you on regularly.

Oh, absolutely. I look forward to it. I've loved the discussion and I'm glad the technicals worked out this time.

Right. The sun shines on every dog's butt once in a while. So, we're in good shape today. Listen, last question for you. You know, when people challenge me to sum up everything I know about leadership very succinctly, of course, that's the way things are today. I mean, we live in a 140-character world, right?

Right.

But that was an interesting challenge, and more and more I lean on this one. If I'm forced to just do it in 10 seconds or less, it's leadership is sharing. A leader shares. Can you do something similar to all the lessons, not just from the Marine Corps, but all the lessons you've had in your life of leadership? Can you give us like 2 or 3, you know, golden nuggets that people can walk away from, some of the, some of the most important ideas that you've fomented about leadership?

Well, I think there's two. I hate to steal directly from John Maxwell, but he said leadership is influence, and I think that one word probably encompasses everything about leadership. It is influence. The other thing I like to say is, is information is the currency of success and leaders are the bankers. If you're not sharing information, if you're not keeping people informed, if you're not brokering that type of information out to your team, then you're not really leading them. They need to be as informed as possible to be able to make the right decisions and buy into your organization. So share information and influence as many people as you can.

Lynn, thank you so much for being with us today. We'll talk again soon, right?

Yes, sir. Okay, looking forward to it.

Thank you so much.

Alright, bye.

Thanks for listening to Walking the Walk. Please share this episode. We encourage you to download and share the program with both experienced and aspiring leaders in your network. We also encourage you to suggest guests for future episodes. Complete information at walkingthewalkpodcast.com. Jim Bouchard is in high demand presenting keynotes and workshops for conference, corporate, and community audiences all over the world. To book Jim for your next event, meeting, or retreat, visit thatblackbeltguy.com Or call Alexandra Armstrong at 207-751-4317.