006 Colonel Don Taylor –– Leadership, Followership and Service

Great leaders are usually also good followers. Leadership, followership, and the importance of focusing on service. These are the topics today as we talk with Colonel Don Taylor.

Welcome to Walking the Walk, the program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start Walking the Walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Colonel Don Taylor's lived a life of service. He understands leadership, followership, and service from both sides, having served as an officer and of course as a dedicated airman charged with following orders from command. Throughout, he's maintained a central theme of compassion and courage in leadership. Don's currently the director for integration at the Southwestern Health Resources in Dallas, Texas, and before this he served with the VA and held many leadership positions in the community, private industry, as well as in the United States Air Force, including service as the commander of the Air Force Theater Hospital at Balad Air Force Base in Iraq. Colonel Taylor is also the author of The Quiet Heroes: Timeless Reflections of an American Airman. Colonel Taylor, thanks a lot for being with us this morning. I know we all had to get up— well, you get up early anyway, right?

Oh, I do.

Old habits?

I do. There you go.

Listen, the pressing question really, because— your main topic being followership. How do leaders learn how to follow?

Leaders, you know, it's really kind of an interesting dilemma. If you really embrace the concepts of leadership in my mind, you have to know that you always are following something. You're in leadership and it goes back to the servant leadership concept. You're serving something greater than yourself. You're serving a cause. You're serving an individual or you're serving a purpose or an organization or a greater— you know, it's really kind of— It's hard for me to verbalize entirely because it's just the way you live. I have always and every—

It's the way more people lived, actually, right?

Well—

That's one of the things that I face it constantly when we're doing workshops and seminars. The best leaders that I've ever met were really great followers too. Sometimes it's hard to convince people. You've got to step back. You've got to— How did— Was it Robert E. Kelley, I think? Professor Kelley said, that leadership and followership really aren't positions, but they're roles, and a good leader is able to switch quickly. Is that something you'd agree with?

Oh, absolutely. You know, leadership to me is far beyond a title or a position, and I deal with that actually in my daily routine now of leaders who have been promoted into positions and titles and confuse their new responsibilities associated with that title. And sometimes ill-prepared for that. So we do a lot of coaching here and there. I'm finding followership, you're right, it's inherent. I mean, if you're not— if no one's following you, you're not leading anything. And I think people have to choose to follow you because I believe some of the characteristics of followership should be inherent characteristics of great leadership. And those two must go hand in hand, but yet they're kind of lost. The followers feel slighted.

No, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, our primary definition of a leader, in fact, is someone who has the ability to attract willing followers— emphasis on the word willing. And I think too often people do, you know, conflate that with, you know, the certificate, the title, the diploma, the position of authority. And there are plenty of people in positions of authority who can't attract willing followers, and there are plenty of leaders on the front lines. And that's what so fascinates me about the military military model. We talked with Lynn Breon, a former Marine, recently. Same thing. My friend Steve Wallace, a Marine, and other folks that we've talked about that had the military background. Colonel Snuffy Smith— I was Colonel Snuffy Smith, you're the Colonel— Admiral Snuffy Smith. All the same theme that they want people, everybody, everybody right down to the line cook to be able to step up and be a leader. How do you guys create that atmosphere in the military?

Well, you're actually taught from day one. You start leadership development, at least in my case and in my experiences, you were taught leadership before you ever entered, really. That's through other training, that's through basic training, whatever. Before you're— it's driven into you that you have responsibilities for those, for those around you as well. And you absolutely have an inherent obligation to honor the greater good. A core mission, and it's to serve something greater than yourself. So you always are conditioned to be a servant, serving the greater cause of security of the nation and integrity and your buddies. Frankly, you don't want to let down your peers. But we're taught in the leader, as you grow in position and as you develop and as you're promoted in the system, you're taught to give back. You're evaluated on your ability to give back and mentor the next generation behind you with a plan to exit at the right time. And sometimes that's at the peak of a career. However, it's making room for those coming up to replace you. You're always preparing someone to replace your shoes, to fill your shoes.

Sure. As a peak of a career, also sometimes in the midst of disaster, right? Oh, that's a template that business people could really learn from because so often— and, you know, in workshops, people are pretty honest about it when I ask them, "Why aren't you training? Why aren't you mentoring that next person in line?" And if they're honest, they'll say, "Well, I don't want to train someone to take my job." But how can we move up, right, as leaders? How can we move up or move sideways and expand how we're applying our talents, our abilities, our capacity to get things done if we're not training that next person? And when the proverbial poop hits the fan, boy, you want that person to be able to step in, right?

You do. You do. And so, and so, and I'm observing in industry now, particularly in my experience with the VA, that it's such a— there's such a lack of an abundance mentality in leadership in the VA. It's, it's, it's control. I don't want anybody around me who could threaten my position or my authorities.

There's the word, isn't it? There's the rub. Everybody, you know, I can't tell you how many times I had that argument. People confuse power and control. Power is your ability to get things done. Control is imposing your will, which is necessary sometimes, right? But it's not really the foundation of leadership, is it?

No, it's a matter of fact, when you have to exert control, you failed. In my mind, that's when you began to do more damage than good. When you exert control, if you can influence and drive and motivate people, then your job becomes easier and easier and your success becomes greater and greater. But it's all about attributing it to the greater good and to a larger group of people and individuals receiving credit than you just receiving credit or feeling the title and the power in the seat. When everybody else around you can solve the problems that come to your desk, that's when life's good. That's when life is really good.

Right? But of course we can't ignore that idea of urgency. And I know you're being modest. I know some of your story. Feel free to share it. And we thank you so much for your service. You know, I know we've had this talk. One of my greatest regrets is that I didn't serve in the military. But you know, you were under extreme conditions in Iraq, under combat conditions. There are times, and again I think this is an imprint that people in business can take, There are times when, you know, when the shots are being fired, when you have to go to that command and control, uh, you know, type of, of, of operation. But if I hear you right, and I'd like you to expand on this, you're— that's not really what you're talking about. That's not control in the sense that we might think about it as laypeople, right? Um, that's, that's when everybody's following into these— falling into these roles. That's pre— am I getting this anywhere? You better than I do. Go ahead.

Yeah, absolutely, because over there, there, there is a— it's not like I have time to develop or wait for someone to learn. Over there, there is a sense of urgency, because if not urgent, then there is life— there are lives at risk. So there were times when I had to inject myself in a little bit more of an authoritarian way than I would have in any other normal— in any other setting. Sometimes with people pretty well qualified. I was the only— for the Air Force, I was the only non-physician to ever command a trauma hospital in Iraq. I had 22 surgical subspecialties. Some of these were world-renowned trauma surgeons. Sometimes getting a, let's just say, directive with them becomes very problematic.

Yeah, they've got all the diplomas we're talking about.

Absolutely.— but my job was to support them. Right. And they knew it. When they were doing what I considered their art, when they were practicing their art during the middle of a mass cal, they knew I was the guy outside making sure they had cold Gatorade or I was mopping the ER floor if that was what needed to be done at that time. And everybody who had other skills were doing their job. My job at that moment as their leader was to prepare them to do their job.. And I did that by cleaning floors, by moving supplies, by helping them prepare to do what they do well.

Well, there's where we can say then that if I'm hearing all this correctly, that it emphasizes the importance of from day one, as you said just a few minutes ago, to be, you know, part of leadership is training to be accepting of this role of followership and to pick up the mop when we need to, right? It's interesting that you brought up that story because When I used to train martial arts instructors, one of the things I would say, I would ask them every year we did a leadership training, and I said, what do you think the highest title is in the martial arts? And a lot of people would say either master or sensei or something. They said, no, janitor. They said, what do you mean? I said, that's what sensei means. They said, no, sensei means teacher. I said, no, sensei means janitor, right? And we learn how to adapt into any of these roles that are necessary at the time. Stick your thumbs in your belt and push out your chest and be the big martial arts guy. But then, you know, when a 6-year-old kid is throwing up in the corner— Absolutely. —the roles change rapidly, don't they? They do.

And the good news is, kind of in a bizarre reversal of roles, at that moment in time, those folks that are saving lives and that have moments, just moments, to react and do the right thing, they know you're serving them.— in a very bizarre reversal, I'm serving them. I am serving to make sure they are prepared to do the next thing. I am orchestrating support across the spectrum. They're on top of the pyramid at that moment, and they know that. And I frankly want them to feel that. They should lack for nothing to do what they need to do.

Well, you're at those— right, go ahead, go ahead.

No, no, no, at those periods of time. Yeah. And I think that was essential. They also knew I was the guy keeping the media off their back. I was the guy keeping the camera out of their face. I was I was the guy protecting their privacy and identity, and I was the guy also trying to make sure there were no bombs or grenades or handguns strapped to the guys they were bringing in. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

No, that makes so much sense. The idea though, again, getting back to this idea of service, of followership, it relies heavily, and I'm cheating a little for folks that are listening because I know Don, but it has to be based on the, purist definition of compassion and empathy, right? To really have a sense of what that other person is going through and to really walk some miles in their shoes. You told a story, I think the first time we met face-to-face, about a young woman who had a disciplinary issue, and that story stuck with me. It fascinated me so much, and I think it really, really brings home everything you're talking about. Do you mind sharing that?

No, I would be glad to, because it was, to me, it was one of the more— it shares actually, to me, it encompasses— it really says what leadership is about. And when you have ultimate authority over someone's life, and you essentially do as a commander in the military— I had a young lady who had, uh, let me just say, I always set the stage in my command whenever I would arrive. I set the stage with, uh, kind of in the early days going, I love you all. My job is to make you all better than you you thought you could be. I want you to press the edge. I want you to make mistakes. But if you commit a crime, it's done. I am a predictable outcome to your poor choices. It's not personal, just the way it is. And then I said, and then there are certain violations of policy or violations of what I call respect that are going to come to my desk. You get caught drinking, I'm yours. You get caught with drugs, I'm yours. You get caught sexual harassment or racial discrimination, I'm yours. I, I just won't tolerate knuckleheads. And I said, you all know the rules, and I love you all, and you're never going to see the bad side if you stay clean on these things. But if you cross the line, you're going to see a different me, and that'll be a rare moment you'll see that. Well, everybody kind of knew what the rules were, and I said it right at the beginning. That was a huge demotivator, by the way, for a lot of folks. I had a young— had a young lady who said, gosh, she reported that she had had her purse stolen. Well, we go a little bit deeper into it and find out that the purse was stolen while she was passed out drunk on a strange guy's couch in an apartment at an address she didn't know where she was. And she was also underage drinker, which just crossed so many lines. But the violation was underage drinking. So I said, okay, so we know what has to happen. So I had her leadership— as stood, she had to report to me, and everybody between her and myself had to stand in full service address at attention and watch as I gave her her punishment, which was a verbal— it's really an administrative action. She reports she's standing there. Sadly, she appeared just like my youngest daughter. She's crying and sniffling, trying to stand at attention. And I'm just— I'm very direct about the risk to her, violation of integrity, how she's hurt her peer group, and all of the things you would typically do. Just to get her attention. Um, at this moment though, it was all about her choices in violating policy and law. So I dismiss her, she leaves. Then I grab her— the, the Master Sergeant who is actually the first shirt, he's in charge, the guy that's kind of disciplined and helps me with that. I said, tomorrow bring her back, normal uniforms, just you and she come back to my office. So the next day she arrived, she was scared again, she was afraid this was a follow-up. It was not. I stepped out from my desk, we sat down on the couch and we talked. This was the father-daughter talk. It was about what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again, and what safety valves do you have in your life to keep you from making poor choices, and maybe the point— do you understand even how you got here? So after a short time, she, uh, she said, what do you want me to do? And I said, I want you to look me in the eye and tell me you will never do it again. And she goes, "You're kidding, right?" I said, "Nope, I'm not kidding." It took her over 10 minutes to do that. Finally she did. She walked out, didn't know how she felt at the time. And then my typical leadership style, I would wander through her work section, oh, every few weeks, and just see how it's going. And as I would walk into the space, she'd run over to me, look me in the eye, and go, I'm still good. I'm still good. Well, when I left command, uh, as I handed the guidon over to my replacement, I walked away, walking to my car. This is kind of our tradition. You're, you're ready to go when the ceremony takes place. You hand the guidon over, you literally walk away, get in the car and drive away and never come back. It's, it's— you're done. That's another part of leadership that I like about the military. You're always preparing your replacement. And, uh, so when I did, she ran over to me, grabbed me, hugged me, and she goes, "I'm still good." Ah, there it is.

That's paid.

And that's worth it all to me. That's worth it all. She, she, um, you know, you never know where those take you. This day, I'm still not sure where she is, but I'll get a note or an email every once in a while from various people over my career. They go, "You know, you did something for me way back when that just kind of changed the direction of my life." And sometimes you just have to go with your gut, and that's what leadership tells me is you go with your gut.

No, absolutely. And I think too many people in positions of authority are looking— they're looking for the payday. I mean, it's nice when we get those, you know, but too, you know, more often we don't know. We don't know what our leadership has done to influence somebody. And like you said, yeah, maybe, maybe 10, 20, 30 years later you run into somebody and you realize that you really made a difference. But you can't count on that, can you? It's not something you should be looking for. Leadership is not about instant gratification, is it?

No, it's not. No, it's really not. It's you walking away sometimes not feeling that you made a difference at all. Right. And you're finding years later that you influenced so many and had no clue at the moment, nor did they. That's the other part, they didn't know it either at the moment. They didn't know that at that time. Now I do a, you know, and now I go into the private side or I go into what I call the commercial side of healthcare and that kind of leadership is hard to find.

Oh, especially when the pressure is on the immediate results, right? That quarterly profit.

Absolutely. They— unfortunately, I think— excuse me— I think leadership's motivated by the wrong things now. They're certainly being evaluated on the wrong things. And I know it's— the bottom line's important, but the bottom line given humanity, I think, should also be a factor.

Oh, absolutely. And that bottom line is important, but not every quarter. And I think we're seeing that now with some of the research that's out there. Simon Sinek and John P. Kotter, these guys are showing that organizations that are focused on that short-term profitability, right, in whatever shape that takes, because sometimes in a nonprofit world it looks a little different, but those results on a quarterly basis, even sometimes on an annual basis, really don't serve the organization well in the long run, especially if you're sacrificing the human side, right, to achieve that. Organizations that are focused on the long-term will accept the ups and downs, won't they? And that's why You know, there's iconic stories about companies that refuse to lay anybody off when times get tough. They somehow reorganize and pull together because they know that'll pay dividends over the long haul. Right. I just—

and I think this short-term focus is very damaging, but it's sort of our just-in-time world. It's a little bit of our instant gratification process. It's part of I want success on my watch. And there's really no corporate patience, as I see it, for people to develop or to grow. And sometimes they grow and develop the wrong people. People who have achieved in a very short term what the company values, which may be the bottom line, aren't necessarily the very leaders that they need to take them over the long term because that climb has created damage en route. And I think— and I'll go back and I'm going to reflect on the VA. I think that's where the VA is today in a lot of ways. They have promoted people who have achieved very short-term, very shallow goals, what I call the billboards look okay in the past, but the substance behind them was really damaging and maybe not serving who they were supposed to serve. The entire, you know, the VA itself. Somebody asked me a long time ago when I first joined what my observations were, and I said, well, I see an organization where a lot of what I call bureaucrats serve themselves using veterans. All right. Mm-hmm. And I sense that is the case for a number of leaders. There's some great ones in there, but I will tell you, they're laying low right now and not wanting any attention.

Well, it's hard, right? Especially with the the pitchfork and torch brigade out all the time, because I think that's the flip side of what you're saying. While we're having a difficult period developing authentic leaders, there are also some very remarkable leaders who, because they didn't produce results or because something happened on their watch, were quick to call for the resignation or chop their heads. And I think especially in public service these days, those calls are so loud, they get amplified through social media and our 24/7 news media, It's very difficult to resist that. So we're losing some very, very good leaders, right? Because we're exposing every flaw. And of course, the best leaders are going to expose the flaws themselves. They're going to say, hey, look, times are tough. This is what it is. We're going to pull together and get through it. But instead, we're putting their head on the chopping block.

Absolutely. And leadership is about discovering what are the core problems. And sometimes those do have to bubble up, and you don't want to hide those. You want to have those used not to indict any previous leader or to indict a system or indict individuals, but to frankly repair and heal the organization. I couldn't agree more.

How do you correct a problem if you're terrified of exposing it? Absolutely.

And right now there is a, you know, a massive— matter of fact, it's just sort of us as a nation right now is you're afraid to expose anything wrong because it can get out of control too quick with this— you know, with this kind of Twitter-type consumption of information. Right. No, absolutely.

And there's this public expectation of perfection, which is— well, that's the whole— that's a kind way to say it, I suppose, you know.

Well, that's the entire problem right now, I think, in serving veterans, is that the expectations are impossible. The VA will never be able to meet the expectations that have been established by the media and by Congress or by veterans based upon the, you know, the last few years of exposing. I don't know of a health system in the world that promises that every healthcare appointment, no matter the specialty, will be provided within 30 days. No system in the world can do it. No.

And it goes— well, it goes so far beyond that. I mean, there's this public— we see that's in healthcare in general these days, don't we? There's a public expectation that somehow a force greater than ourselves, fill it in, the VA or the federal government, is going to prevent us from being unhealthy. And there's things that happen to us along the way. I mean, there's no way we can assure perfect health, no?

No, and a lot of times people's health is nothing more than an accumulation of their own choices. Sure. I can attest to that. But the point is people will refuse to be held accountable for that. Right. Right. And so there's a— and particularly with veterans, I do believe that there is a need to serve veterans and there is a need to serve them for the conditions by which the military exposed them or used them. However, I also believe there is a collaboration in health between a patient and a provider and a system that have to be brought in balance. Right.

Well, again, now we're talking about in general people accepting, you know, that role of followership and serve in service even to oneself. I think that's a huge topic that gets lost sometimes, and you're hitting it right on the head in this particular area because, you know, I can be my own best servant as far as taking care of myself. And if I'm not willing to do that, if I'm just going to abdicate that responsibility, well, then there's a real problem. But have we really lost this focus on service or have we just become the me generation? I know you're trying to change it. I know I'm trying to change it. How are you trying to change it? Because I don't believe that you accept that. I don't think we've lost our focus on service, but we have to do some work to restore it to its full potential, right?

Well, part of it, and it's hard for me to do, um, and this is where I'm going to bring my, uh, my sweet wife into play. She has no problem holding people accountable for a lack of service. That's what she, she has no problem with. I do. I'm not a, I'm not a confrontational kind of guy, strangely enough. You'd think that that would— I would relish that. I don't. And when people lack an attention to service when their role is service, I'm not one to point that out right away. Right. And I think we all have to hold each other accountable to be delivering the level of service, not, not necessarily that they expect, but what we promised. Mm-hmm. And we represent an organization, you know, about a system, about a level of service that is, you know, you're part of the culture, the culture promises this. As a, as a consumer, we expect that. When your individuals aren't delivering on your corporate promise, They have to be held accountable, and, and we need to keep doing that because we have— and it's also not— and this gets much deeper into a whole generation of a younger generation now that doesn't follow anything. They haven't been taught to follow. They haven't been taught to be subordinate at moments in their life. They haven't been taught to be patient with development. They haven't been taught They've been taught instant gratification and that I can be in charge of the world.

That's the worst part, isn't it? It is. We should make the plug when you talk about your lovely wife. Of course, that's Judy Hoberman, Selling in a Skirt, and she was a guest on the show. She'll be a frequent guest on the show as well. And no, you're absolutely right. Her focus is on helping people understand this, the importance of service in sales and in consumerism. Consumer, customer service as well, and in other areas of leadership too. So make sure you check out her work. And before we wrap things up, and I know we obviously we're going to do more calls because we've got a lot of things to dig into in detail, but I want to make sure you have a chance to talk about your book, The Quiet Heroes: Timeless Reflections of an American Airman. And, you know, as you were telling the story, obviously this is somebody who influenced you greatly, right? It was.

It was, um, he, he was the father of, uh, of a, of a great friend of my wife's, and she was visiting, and she said, you know, we were talking, just, we were just notionally talking about my time in Iraq, and she goes, you know, my father served in World War II, but he never spoke about it. She goes, would you mind talking to him? And I said, sure. So flew to Florida, and I spent 2 days with Itch, the nickname Itch. I was just asking him to tell me about his experience, and I recorded it. And what I discovered was a young kid in 1944 who hadn't left his little town of New Haven, Connecticut, frankly, his whole life, had a sense of service and, uh, wanted to do something great for the world. And at 19, he stepped up and volunteered to be in the Army Air Corps. Which at a time was, uh, not easy to do when, you know, life expectancy was less than 50%, frankly, for some of the bomber crews. And to complicate it further, um, he didn't know it at the time, but being a Jewish crewman, you never were a POW. You never survived. Oh yeah, they didn't quite understand that. We didn't know at the time about the Holocaust. And so, but he knew the risks and he volunteered anyway. And he just told this, this gracious little story with just filled with innocence but adventure about how he moved through training, met his crew, they flew out of England in a B-17, they shot down a Mission 17, belly landed in a minefield in Belgium, and how he went through the— his experiences. And the book is really his words entirely because there's no way to capture his own— his own words. It's the way he talked about how he felt and his friends and the loss of some of his friends and the fear he had. And, you know, the fact that he'd, you know, wear the— wear his lucky underwear for days and days on end, um, and how you never ate anything but but, but fake eggs for breakfast because everything else caused gas at altitude. And little things that I was going, seriously, uh, I hadn't thought about them, uh, or the close calls, or the fact, you know, he gets to meet Eisenhower, or he met, you know, some famous figures. And I went, I went, incredible. So I had to, I had to put it in a little book, and it's, uh, The Quiet Heroes. And it's at www.thequietheroesbook.com. Uh, you can purchase it there. Each— I'll autograph them and send them to you right away. But it's about— it's, it's just story. Now, the downside of it is that wrote the book, worked on it for way too many months as I was in the VA at the time. And, uh, the day I got the first printed copy of the book, he passed away. And luckily though, his daughter was able to read him in the entire book. Yeah, yeah. But it's a great story.

He would be waiting for you to finish it.

I think so. I think so.

No, that's a beautiful story. These lessons are all around us and get the book. I can't tell you how many times, Don, when I'm doing workshops, I ask the question, I say, "How many leadership books have you read in the last few months?" And people, most of the room will say, "None, of course." They're all around us and we have access to them so easily. It's a shame that people don't take more advantage of that. So definitely, how do you get that again? What's the website?

www.thequietheroesbook.com. There you go.

And we'll make sure that goes up on the links as well. Hey, we could talk all day, but we need to wrap things up for this program. You'll come back, of course. Thank you. Maybe we'll do a live one down in Texas.

I'd love to do that. You know, the house is always open.

That'd be fun. We'll just say, well, you already have a broadcast studio set up there. We just plug it.

We do, we do. We get— it's easy to set it up here. We can do it, and, uh, we'll grill some, and I'll smoke some ribs at the same time.

I know that big green egg. I see that every time.

It's a religion. I love it.

Colonel Don Taylor, thank you so much.

Thank you, Jim. Take care.

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