007 Dov Baron –– Fiercely Loyal

On this episode of Walking the Walk, we're talking with one of the world's top experts on loyalty, Dov Baron.

Welcome to Walking the Walk, the program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start Walking the Walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Loyalty. A leader just can't get anything done without it. Yet cultivating and maintaining loyalty is still one of the toughest challenges facing leaders today, and it's getting even more difficult every day. Dov Baron is one of Inc. Magazine's top 100 leadership speakers. He's known all over the world for his Full Monty leadership program and is the author of several powerful books, including one of my all-time favorites, Fiercely Loyal. The world's only corporate cultural momentum strategist, Dov works with leaders and executive teams to build the bonds that create corporate cultures that become fiercely loyal. Most of all, it's a blessing to call him a dear friend. How you doing, Duff?

Excellent, Jim. Thanks for having me on, mate. I'm honored to be here. Always great to chat with you. You're one of my favorite people to chat to in the leadership world. And just generally speaking, kind of like it.

No, we always have great conversations. And you know, that's why I wanted to have you on this particular episode because, you know, one of the most challenging aspects of leadership these days is how to develop and maintain loyalty. And certainly you're one of the leading experts in that area. Let's get into it and really talk about, you know, how do you develop that initial contact? And, you know, now it's— I think the average stay at a company is closing in on 3.5 years. Is that accurate? Something like that, right?

No, I'm sad to tell you that's a grand overstatement. The average stay is 1.2 to 2 years for a millennial. So that would be somebody who is now 36, 37 years old at the upper end. And so millennials stay 1.2 to 2 years in a job is the average stay. A career is 4 years. Not a job, a career.

Oh yeah, yeah. Let's clear that up right away then. Is it all a loyalty problem? Or are people really just going out and trying to seek bigger and better adventures for themselves? What's your experience with that?

Well, I think they are seeking bigger and better adventures for themselves. I think they're bored faster and all those things are very real. We can't ignore those. But that's still a loyalty issue. So here's the thing. We've worked with some individuals, some companies, and we've got their people to stick around for as long as 4 years and even a little bit longer for a full career cycle. Not just a job cycle. And the reason for that is that they're doing all the things that create an environment that will keep that person loyal for an entire career. So yes, the millennials want a high level of stimulus, they want growth, they want development, all those kind of things. And you can say, well, they're leaving not because we're terrible. That may be true, but are you creating the environment that can keep them there and keep them loyal? That's a bigger question.

And you have a lot of advice in one of my favorite books on the subject of all time, and that's your book, Fiercely Loyal. And people should know that you have to have this in your library. Thank you, sir. Oh, absolutely. What are some of the key areas that you'd like to share from your book and from your experience? I know every time we've talked about this before, right, we write a book and then a year later we've got some new perspectives, right? So I'm sure a lot's happened since that book's been published as well. What are some of the top things that a leader specifically— I know we can get into it on an organizational level, but a leader, what can that one person do to engender the kind of loyalty you're talking about in Fiercely Loyal?

Great question. Thank you very much for asking. A simple answer is this: if you want to create loyalty, number one, first thing, you've got to be willing to be loyal. Don't ask for what you're not willing to give. And, and coming to that is understanding this. First of all, if you want to create loyalty, particularly with millennials, the thing you must absolutely understand is they have a bullshit meter the size of Mars. What that means is that you are going to have to be authentic and you're going to have to be transparent. And these are two words that are kind of thrown around, but people don't truly understand what they are. So we got to start there. Let's start with authenticity and transparency. Are you authentic? And it's a question I'm asked, and it kind of makes me smile. How do I be more authentic? Well, do you know what authentic means? And they go, well, yeah.

And I go, well, no, most people don't, do they? Most people do not know what that word means.

Well, no, because it's a word that's thrown around. It's become the cool word, right? But authentic at the simplest level means to be real. So you're asking me, how can I be more of me?

There it is.

Well, the question is, how do you stop being more— less of— stop being more of who you're not and be more of who you are? Yeah. So the first thing to do is to address that. What are the— you know, as you know, Jim, you know, our brand is Full Monty Leadership, and what that means is to strip away the things that are covering up you— your title, your bravado, So if you want to be more authentic, be willing to reveal more of yourself, which leads us of course into transparency and more specifically into vulnerability.

I was just going to ask you that. Sorry. I was just going to ask you that because it seems like— it seemed like you were leading that way. And I know, I believe HBR just did something on that, asking leaders to be more vulnerable. Now a lot of people associate that with weakness, and I know you don't. Can you explain a little bit more about what your perspective is?

Yeah, as you said, we've all been conditioned to believe that vulnerability is weakness, particularly in the leadership world. But the truth of the matter is that leadership and vulnerability go hand in hand for this simple reason. As I said, when we were conditioned, we're not supposed to show the chink in our armor. However, what I want you to grasp is this, and again, I use this analogy all the time and I want you to think of it. I want you to imagine for a moment there are two people in front of you. You've known them both for the same amount of time. Makeup, that that's 2, 3, 5 years, whatever it might be. And the person on your right is a true, loyal, trusted friend. And the person on your left, you've known exactly the same amount of time, and they're an acquaintance. What is the distinction between those two relationships?

Hmm.

And the answer is vulnerability. And you go, well, how? And the answer to that is your true, trusted, loyal friend knows you, you have revealed yourself to them. Then, to use my vernacular, you know their shit and they know yours. Nobody's holding it against each other. And so the truth of how we create loyalty with another person is through, through that vulnerability, through that willingness to reveal ourselves mutual, uh, not with reciprocity. So the key things in vulnerability is to understand this Vulnerability is not indiscriminate emotional vomit. It's not about giving yourself permission to just spill everything on top of people. That's not vulnerability. That's, that's being an emotional mess.

Mm-hmm.

Moreover, it's also about reciprocity. So you have to set up an environment that makes it safe for the other person to also reveal themselves. The more we reveal ourselves to each other, the greater the level of vulnerability, the greater level of vulnerability, the greater the bond, and the greater the bond, the greater the loyalty.

See, that makes so much sense. And what you're talking about, getting back to what you said just a little while ago, that idea of giving. When you're truly vulnerable, when you're authentically vulnerable, that is a gift. You're giving somebody something. You're giving them a look at yourself, right? And again, I know we've talked about this on your show. I always tell the story about the word respect and the definition that I learned from a third-grade kid when I was doing a presentation at his school. And I asked, just as I asked this, what does respect mean? This little guy stood up and he bowed and he said, "Sensei, respect means taking care of one another." And I could never— to this day, I can't come up with a better definition.

No.

Right? But the whole thing is— but even today, even after telling that story, sometimes I'll have people say, "Well, you know, yes, I'll give respect once somebody shows me respect." I said, "No, it doesn't work that way." You have to be— going back to your word again, keyword— you have to be vulnerable. You have to be willing to take that that chance, that risk, and gives respect unconditionally, no expectation in return, right? It may come back, it may not, but it certainly isn't going to if we're not willing to share it.

But you know this as well as I do, Jim. We're both in the leadership world. And what does leader mean? It means you've got to be leading the way. What does that mean? It means I gotta go first.

Amen.

Right? So if I'm gonna be respectful, I gotta give respect. If I want respect, I gotta give it. If I want vulnerability and a connection and a bond and loyalty, I've got to be willing to give those things first. That's what leadership is. Are you going to step up and go first? Are you going to go, "I'm the leader, so I'm going to tell them what they have to do"? Well, if that's the leader you are, I'm sorry, you're living about 40 years ago and it's either time to bury yourself in a box or to really reinvent yourself. And that was going to take some courage to really take a look at yourself because that style of leadership is dead in the water. Those leaders are dinosaurs.

No, it sure is. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that there is more, despite what we hear in the press all the time, there is a lot more equality. Employees have a lot more power now. And along with that comes a responsibility. And part of that responsibility, right, is to express leadership at all levels. But that idea that in the olden days, I think those draconian methods worked only because people really didn't have much power. They didn't have a choice, right? I mean, you were stuck. You— this is the job that was in this town. This is what this— most towns were built on a single industry, and that's not absolutely right. It's not the case anymore.

No, you're absolutely right. I, I was having a conversation with Shane Greene, who's just got a new book out called Culture Hackers, and one of the things we were talking about was that there is a talent war, and the talent won. It's that simple. The talent won. So if you think as an employer, as a, as a leader, as a boss, that you're the best option for the talent, you're not. That it is totally their world, their market. They did— they make the distinction. So we as leaders have to understand that if we're looking for loyalty, one of the things you've got to remember is they're interviewing you every bit as much as you're interviewing them, right?

Right.

And 40% of your workforce today is— and by the way, these are not people who are unhappy, not, not limited to people who are unhappy, but 40% of your workforce, of your best people, are already looking for a new position. You better give them a reason to stick around, and it isn't money.

No, no. And you know, and that's— this is the thing that Sometimes we get into these conversations, people wonder, "Oh, well, that all sounds nice. You're sharing a very nice and positive philosophy." But let's put philosophy aside. I know we do both work strongly in that world. Thankfully, people are understanding that philosophy is a hard skill more than a soft skill, if we can shift that term a little bit. But the numbers you cited earlier, if people are only staying, and like I said, I feel ignorant that I hadn't been updated. 3.5 years is bad enough. A year and a half? And as you said, it's not just that people are disgruntled or anything. It's people are always looking for something better, some new opportunity and a better place to be for themselves. So that makes it even more challenging. And let's talk a little bit about, you know, there are some pitfalls though. Some of this, as you just said, we don't have any control over. People are going to look for new— we may provide the best, and that happens, doesn't it? People leave, they say, oh, I had a great time. I love this place. It's just that here's my next adventure.

Yeah, and that's part of the premise of the book Fiercely Loyal is understanding this, that you can't keep people for 30, 40 years like we used to do. So let's just give up the idea because people say to me, "Well, if we bring you in, can we get people to stay like they used to?" No, that's not going to happen. What I'm going to do is I'm going to come in and work with your organization and help you to keep people for the maximum amount of time you can. When they leave, it won't be because they thought you guys sucked or it was a terrible place to work. So when they leave, we want them to become evangelical about your company. So they walk away and they say to their friends, listen, I'm moving on to this next adventure. Here's what I've got. But you really should go work for Jim. You should really go work for Dov. You should really go work for XYZ company because they were awesome. You need them to become evangelical for you because they are your enrollment And this is the part of the loyalty. They're going back into the talent pool and they know people in their own field. Bring them in.

That's solid. That is really solid. Now, both of us work with some really good leaders who sometimes don't realize they're doing some of the things that are pushing people away though. And even the best, we know we're all susceptible to that. What are some of the things that you can point out that And I think it's kind of that fish swimming in its own water kind of thing, right? Sometimes we don't realize that we're busy or wrapped up in a big issue or a change or something, and these things are sometimes left aside. Again, that's why I've been beating the drum that people need to understand how powerful it is to connect with the human side of these things, the human side of leadership. Technical management is important, but what Dov and I are talking about is as important. I'm not going to elevate. I'm going to say it's as important. They're two parts of the same. Whole, you know. So what are some of the, some of the critical areas that Pete, that you run up against most often? Repeated mistakes, I guess, is what I'm looking for, that people make that they could change tomorrow and make things a little bit better for themselves.

The most simple mistake, you know, as we've talked about before, is, is, is to not be in your humanity. No, again, I think the part of the challenge with this is that people think if they reveal their humanity, then they don't have the respectable, you know, But that's old school. So what you've got to really understand is that people will respect you if you show them respect, if you are vulnerable with them, if you are discerning about— like I said, not emotionally vomiting on people, but being real with them. People will rally around you. It's one of the biggest mistakes for, for leaders who are 45 and older, is that they don't want to step into that vulnerability. You've got to have Authenticity, number one. So let me just go through a bit of a list with you quickly, is that okay?

Sure, no, that would be terrific.

Okay, so first of all, authenticity. Take a look at where you're wearing your title. Take a look at where you're wearing your persona rather than actually revealing who you are. Transparency, and, and the extension of transparency, as we talked about, is vulnerability. Be real about the challenges you're facing inside of the organization. Ask other people for help. Which then leads us into collaboration. You've got to be willing to be collaborative. And when I say collaborative, that means, you know, in the old school, the old world, we thought as a leader I have to have the answers. No, as the leader I have to have the great questions. So it allows people to be collaborative with you. That's another way to bond people to you and create a great deal of loyalty.

I love that one. If we can I want to put a pause there because that one really strikes— I've been on kind of a soapbox lately about the difference between delegation and sharing. You know, you've heard me say this. To me, leadership is sharing. A leader shares. And sharing is much deeper than simple delegation. And I think it's deeper than what a lot of people view as collaboration. I believe you and I are going to be singing in perfect harmony with this. Sharing means exactly that, that instead of just giving someone a task and letting them go do it, which is appropriate sometimes, Sure. It means being part of the process and hopefully from the innovation or inception phase all the way through the execution phase that you're partners in that work. Is that really what you're after with this collaboration idea?

Yeah, and even more. So absolutely everything you said, fully, totally, absolutely agree. But the other piece around collaboration, hand in glove with mentoring. So what I mean by that is— In the old world, I'm the boss and I mentor you because you're below me. In the new world, I'm the boss, I mentor you on what I know, but you mentor me on what you know, and our peers mentor each other and us. So mentoring is up, down, down, up, side to side, yeah, to center, center to side, cyclical.

It's all— it's— they're just expanding circles. The Buddha was right.

Yeah, so absolutely. So this is the thing about collaboration, is, is know your strengths, know other people's strengths, embrace those strengths. And it doesn't mean you walk away, as you were saying. It's not just about delegation, but it's collaboration. Because you and I, you and I have had this conversation before, Jim, in our own lives. And when we talk about— you and I love to collaborate on all kinds of things, and we talk about things because there's something that will come out of our conversation that would never come out. And you're a, you're a really smart guy, you know, and I think I'm a reasonably smart individual. And, you know, there's things that are just never going to come to the surface even as I sit in my own genius, as you sit in your own genius. But 5 minutes—

well, you're too kind, you're too kind, and I do appreciate it.

But, well, 5 minutes sitting with you or I and new things come to the surface, right?

Right.

And it's not just masterminding, it's that there are strengths you have that I don't and vice versa. And you could be the CEO, the CFO, that anybody in that C-suite or management level, you don't— it's one of my lines is this, is none of us have objectivity in our subjective reality. It's the reason you hire the Jim Bouchards, the Dov Barons of the world, because you will never have that level of objectivity. And sharing, collaborating, and mentoring with the other team members is a vital piece of that.

Right. No, right. I mean, those things grow on each other. That's the idea. You know, we talk about a series of tactics that we borrowed from martial arts applied to leadership. And really what you touched on there is the one we call borrowing, right? When we can take the other person's energy, say in a mechanical sense. Say somebody throws a punch, we'll bring it to the martial arts thing, and instead of stopping it or even deflecting it, I join with that, add my power to it, and now the output is exponential.

Absolutely.

But you got to be moving in the same direction, and that's what leadership is about. Now, you stopped at collaboration, and you— I know you have more, more on that list. Yeah.

So, um, out of that we have 2 things that go hand in hand, but they are separate things. And one is communication skills. If you're going to really develop loyalty inside of your organization, you've got to be masterful at communication. Now, communication is at one level the ability to share your story. Now, your is in quotes, meaning your own personal story, but also the organization's story, right? Knowing how to share that story in a way that creates an emotional connection to the listener. So that's really important. Another piece of communication, as you and I both know very well, is simply this: the ability to listen.

Mm-hmm.

Can you listen with the intent to hear rather than the intent to respond? That will take some discipline. That will take some practice. And that leads us to the second part of communication, which is the ability to deal with conflict. So sad that in today's world and in leadership, you know, we've all heard the number one fear people have is public speaking. As you know, I have the Academy for the Authentic Speakers Academy for leadership, and I've seen people stand there holding a microphone like they were holding maracas. They were shaking so hard.

Mm-hmm.

But I can get them over that. I can get them over that within 10 minutes. But getting them to deal with conflict, that's a whole different gig. We are terrified of conflict. We're terrified of not being loved or liked because we, we have a difference of opinion. Leaders must become masters of conflict because healthy conflict is a way to really bond people to you. But sadly, most people don't know how to do healthy conflict or afraid to death of doing any form of conflict. If you want to bond your people to you, it's okay to have a great healthy conflict because both of you will leave having a deeper understanding of the individual, the other individual, and actually expanded. It's powerful. So that's the next piece of this: the willingness to embrace conflict, the willingness to listen with the intent to hear, and to communicate your story in a way that emotionally bonds people to you.

And that requires a lot of courage, and it requires a lot of confidence, doesn't it? Because what you're talking about is The leader setting the pace, moving out in front usually, being willing to change roles. I like what you said about that as well, because sometimes it's not just ideas. People often will say, well, yeah, some of the ideas come from the front lines, but it's not just that. It's the cultural shift that happens. And this idea of leading conflict as well, I don't remember where I heard the term expressed that way, but it was always interesting to me that you have to create— the leader's responsibility is to create this cauldron, this environment. And you got to keep the temperature just right. Too cool and there's no innovation, no new ideas, no sparks that, you know, everything you just talked about doesn't happen when the culture is too tepid. It could be cautious, but it could be just complacent too. On the other side, you don't want the water boiling over where people are at each other's throats, but you want that healthy blend in between, right? The water is just about ready to come to a boil is the way that I heard it that I liked so much.

Yeah, and the key in that is, you know, If we look around, you know this, you work with so many great companies and organizations, and if we look around, everybody's talking about that we've got to be innovative, and people have made it part of their mission statements. But most people don't know what the hell innovation is, to be honest with you. They think a tweak is an innovation. It's not an innovation, it's a tweak. So what creates an environment for innovation? That's why we do We've designed a 10-step model for what the culture needs to be for authentic leadership, for creating loyalty and creating innovation. And part of that is safety. If you want innovation, you have to have safety. So, so healthy conflict is a part of safety. Now, what does that mean? It means I don't take a crap all over your great idea, even if I think it's a bad idea. It's safe for you to make mistakes. It's safe for you to fail. It's safe for you— for us to disagree and be okay with that and not behave like children who feel like, you know, nobody loves me and nobody likes my opinion.

Oh, and the failure part of that is so huge because no organization really moves forward without failure. And I'm not talking about foolish failure or stupid failure. No. Right? I'm talking about the fact— well, one of the great stories that I heard was the Post-it note, which was a failure. The guy who invented that was right. He was trying to invent a super glue. And ended up inventing a lousy glue. But the culture at 3M was strong in such a way that they shared those ideas. So did he fail? The project failed, but that person wasn't a failure. And later on, somebody in another department pulled that off the shelf, and all of a sudden we've got one of the biggest products on earth.

One of my examples of that that I really like to bring it home to people, because I think we make it— again, it's part of the challenge. You know this as well, Jim, because we both address this directly. Is that we make the separation between the person and the leader. And if you're going to be a great leader, you can't make that separation. You've actually got to bring the two things together.

Amen.

So one of the things I will say to a leader when I'm working with them is this. I say, if your kid who is 5 years old takes the crayon and starts drawing on the wall, are you upset? The answer is yes, of course you are. That's a terrible thing. It's crappy. Now you've got to repaint the wall, whatever it is, right? So is that a bad thing? Yeah. Do you tell the kid that they're terrible, useless individuals, or do you tell them this behavior is not okay? And they go, well, that's terrible, that's awful, I would never do that. You know, isn't that what you do in leadership though? Aren't you telling people that they're bad too often, as opposed to the idea was not so great? So separate the behavior from the person, you become a better pattern. Everybody understands that. Separate the behavior from the person, you become a better leader. Oh my goodness, what a brilliant idea, never thought of that.

Yeah, yeah. No, and you petrify somebody to innovate when you do that, to create, because they get gun-shy. I'm not going to do that. And again, I'm going to beat this drum one more time. It's the failure is not always the worst outcome. You know, sometimes that eliminates waste a lot of the time. You know, Edison, what's that famous thing when they challenged him that he had, I don't know, the numbers change depending on who's telling the story, but let's say it's 10,000 attempts that you failed 10,000 times. I didn't. Those were 10,000 experiments that showed me what I shouldn't be doing, right? Every step closer.

And so here's the thing, you know, and you and I both fully agree on this, it's part of your whole piece around your own thing, is that great leaders are not born, they're not even made, but they're transformed. What are they transformed from? They're transformed from their mistakes, they're transformed from their discretions, their indiscretions, they're transformed from the, from the raw clay and the mistakes that we've made has actually made us better leaders. I don't think there's such a thing as a good leader who's always been a good boy, who's always done things right, who always got A on everything. If I had to be led by somebody like that, honestly, I don't know that I would trust them, right?

No, successes are important, they're to be enjoyed, but I agree with you. Successes, by and large, they'll validate something we've been doing, but they're, they're not a real good, uh— what do you call it? They're not a good instigator of progress. They just aren't. Mistakes and failures are because we have to fight our way out of those.

And that's why when you look at the companies who've really done amazing things and transformative things, they're usually the companies that hit the wall. They had to reinvent themselves. They did new things. And there comes that turning point. You know, there are some companies that go out there, they hit the wall, and then they are the Blockbuster. You know, they just disappear.

It actually just— there's a good example, right?

Blockbuster itself, that, that video, the Kodak, you know, they, they hit the wall and they never come back. And there are other companies that hit that wall and they go, okay, we got to reinvent ourselves, and they completely reinvent themselves and come back and do magnificent things because they chose to learn rather than being rigid and saying, this is who we are. Now let's take that same example and make it personal for leaders. And when you hit that wall, because we all do, and you go, that's it, I'm crap, I'm no good, I'm not as a leader, I'm going to go get a job and work at 7-Eleven. Or you go, you know, you lick your wounds for a while, you pull the blankets over your head, and then you go, okay, what did I learn? What have I got to change? How I got to reinvent myself? And it's a constant state of refinement. You and I have had that conversation many times.

Sure, sure. But how exciting— how dull would it be? Well, that's the point. People that don't embrace that process are— I'm going to be blunt about it— they're dull people. They've dropped into a, you know, a condition of laziness and complacency and self-loathing sometimes, and that's it. But of course, that's one of the problems with abundance, right? We live, especially in the Western world here, we generally enjoy a pretty substantial degree of abundance, and that can be crippling.

It can indeed, because it breeds complacency very often. You're absolutely right. Dov, we're going to have to have a final piece I want to give you in this list of things, if I may, which is a thing that I think is missed more than anything. If you want to make people loyal to you, you really got to get rid of your arrogance. And, and, and if you say, well, I'm not arrogant, right there's your arrogance. Every one of us has arrogance. You, you think you understand about it is— I'm going to define arrogance for you.

You talking to me?

You talking to me? I want to define it for you because arrogance, the simplest way to understand arrogance is I know that. That language, "I know that," is where the mind gets in the way of everything. It's an arrogant statement. It means I'm not willing to learn anymore. It's okay to say, "I thought I knew that. I think I know that." But give— so coming to this place, we want to build loyalty. You want to really get bond people to you. It's how can I be better? How can I know more about this? How can I have a deeper understanding of this? Jim, when did you stop reading leadership books?

Trick question, huh?

Did you stop studying leadership?

Uh, never. Exactly.

That's the point, right? Right. You know, people say, people say to me all the time, you know, you spend $20 grand a year on your education, you know, and like, don't you know enough yet? It's like, it's funny, like, that's a statement about where they're at, not where I'm at, is that I understand there is no there. That's all there is to it. If you're gonna be a great leader, you got to get rid of the arrogance. And so what does that mean? Well, in our model, in our 10-step model for building a purpose-driven culture, the outer ring of that is constant curiosity. Constant curiosity. Like, if you can engrave and tattoo something on your brain I sign off every one of my broadcasts with, "Stay curious, my friend. Stay curious." Mm-hmm. Because I believe without a shadow of a doubt, it is the greatest leadership skill set that you will embrace. It's such a soft skill, but it so powerfully relates to the hard bottom line because it decides on courage, is your curiosity. Innovation comes from your curiosity. Your desire to get better at anything comes from your curiosity. Your willingness to communicate comes from curiosity. If you look at people who have a great relationship— I know that you, Jim, and Alex have this wonderful marriage. It doesn't mean it's always perfect, but I guarantee, because I know you, I guarantee that you stay curious about your partner and she's curious about you. That's what makes a bond. That's what makes us interested. But we take people for granted. We stop being curious about them. And guess what? They will go away, whether they are a wife, a husband, a partner, business partner, or a first-class top talented individual inside of your organization. Get curious about your people.

That's gold. That's a great place to wrap it up for today. And make sure though too, let's tell people how to get in touch with you. And again, I encourage everybody to get Fiercely Loyal and Full Monty Leadership and all the other materials and books and resources that you have on your websites. And so, give us the full monty. Give us the smash. How can people get in touch with you?

Well, if you were listening to this show, you know, I want you to recognize this. Jim puts all the time into bringing you phenomenal guests on a great show. He's a great host. And I want you to recognize that this is something that takes his time as well as all the amazing guests that he brings to you. So here's the first thing I want you to do. I want you to write to Jim and tell him what you got out of particularly this episode, of course, but all of his shows. Let him know. Go to iTunes, rate, review, and subscribe to the show. You know, this is not for our entertainment. This is the commitment we have to leadership. So that's the first thing I want you to do is to do that. You can certainly write to me. I would love for you to write to me and tell me what you got out of this show. You can write to me personally, D-O-V, @D-O-V-B-A-R-O-N.com, Dov@DovBaron.com. You can find me at FullMontyLeadership.com. That's my main website. And if you want to have access to the self-assessment for authentic leadership, walking you through the 5 prime areas that you will need to develop to be a really powerful leader who creates that loyalty, then you can go to Matrix, like the movie, M-A-T-R-I-X, dot FullMontyLeadership.com. There's a free self-assessment for you. It's a $197 value. You get it absolutely free. Matrix.fullmontyleadership.com. And of course, you can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn and iTunes and YouTube and Entrepreneur Magazine and all the kinds of places.

You're easy to find.

Definitely not hard to find.

And thanks for sharing that resource too. Do the matrix. Give yourself a gift and do that. It's a powerful tool and Dov is not charging anything for that. You will not regret doing that. And believe me, you're not going to get spammed. He's not going to be attacking you.

No, definitely not.

That tool is out there and he shares it freely and generously. Hey, thanks so much for being with us today. Obviously, you know, this is the first time we've done this show. You've been on our other shows, but I'm going to be as bold as to say, let's put you on the log as a regular. We need to have you on here as much as possible. Sound good?

I would love that. I love chatting with you, and I think we would bring great value. So thank you. I'm honored. I sincerely appreciate it.

Thanks for listening to Walking the Walk. Please share this episode. We encourage you to download and share the program with both experienced and inspiring leaders in your network. We also encourage you to suggest guests for future episodes. Complete information at walkingthewalkpodcast.com. Jim Bouchard is in high demand presenting keynotes and workshops for conference, corporate, and community audiences all over the world. To book Jim for your next event, meeting, or retreat, visit thatblackbeltguy.com or call Alexandra Armstrong at 207- 751-4317.