In this episode of the Walking the Walk podcast, host Jim Bouchard interviews Katherine Schoenenberger, president of Stay Safe Traffic Products and national president of the National Association of Women in Construction (NAWIC). The conversation explores the current state of women’s participation in construction, highlighting persistent under‑representation (about 7% of professional engineers and roughly 10% of the overall construction workforce) and the recent resurgence of women entering trade apprenticeships, especially through union programs. Schoenenberger discusses NAWIC’s structure—national board, regional divisions, and local chapters—and its role in mentorship, leadership development, and networking, emphasizing the importance of listening, mentorship, and confidence‑building for women at all career stages. The interview also touches on generational shifts in work ethic, the need for adaptability, and the value of technology such as drones, GPS‑enabled equipment, and simulators in modern construction. Issues of workplace culture, including harassment and the MeToo movement, are addressed, with calls for zero‑tolerance policies and proactive allyship. Schoenenberger shares practical advice for leaders—active listening, journaling, delegation, and fostering inclusive environments—and describes outreach initiatives like Construction Career Days that engage K‑12 students. Finally, she provides concrete steps for listeners to join NAWIC, outlining the website, membership contacts, and the benefits of local chapter involvement.
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There is no glass ceiling for Katherine Schoenenberger. She's the president of Stay Safe Traffic Products, one of America's leading providers of traffic control and safety equipment. And Katherine's now the national president of NAWIC, that's the National Association of Women in Construction. What does the future hold for women leaders in American construction? Join us today on Walking the Walk and we're gonna find out.
Welcome to Walking the Walk. The program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start walking the walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.
In a spirit of full disclosure, I should say that I've been blessed to be able to work with NAWIC and with Katherine in the past, in the recent past. And so Katherine, I never— I don't know if I told you this or not, but I grew up working for a contractor. My dad was a contractor, and later I worked in a in a shipyard, electric boat in Groton, Connecticut. And in those days, you know, women were just starting to make a lot of inroads into the trades and especially into engineering and management. So what does the landscape look like today? It seems like it's pretty promising, right? And you guys at NAWERC are doing a great job to make that happen.
You would think so. I think that what we're doing, and especially in this year that belongs to me as national president, is, you know, we've had the theme of making a measurable difference going forward. We've been stuck at some numbers here for about 40 years. We're about, we're just about 7% in our professional engineering, still not moving that needle significantly since really 1970. And then we're still struggling to get about 10% of the women in the construction workforce. We're 51% of the population, about 47% of that working population, and yet in the construction industry we're still struggling just to make 10%. So as much as it feels like it's doing well, and it's maybe because we're in the midst of all of that excitement, because there's a lot of powerful women that certainly are in construction, right? We have a lot of inroads still yet to make. And what we do have, and one of the encouraging things that I think that is on the horizon, as a tradeswoman, they're doing a phenomenal job getting back in. And there's been a rebirth, if you will, of women finding a career in construction via the trades. And it's been something that's been offered primarily right now through— I will say the unions are a big incentive program there for apprenticeship programs, et cetera. But overall, I mean, they're making living— a living wage. And especially if they're single moms or in their mid-30s, 40s, 50s, even changing to a career that certainly will support not only them but their families as well.
You know, that's fascinating because it comes at a time— I want to come back to the management thing in a second, but it comes, you know, it comes at a time when across the country, you know, there's a shortage of people in general entering the trades, and, you know, it seems like one of the horizons— I just read an article that talked about that, that, you know, the construction trades were going to be one of the places where there was so much opportunity because so many people have stopped entering that. So it seems like an exciting opportunity that more women are getting involved on that level.
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's also, you know, overall, and just the trades alone, our skilled labor shortage is a real deal, men and women. And when I do talk to companies that are trying to develop their workforce, of course, you know, we want to be more diverse. We want all these buzzwords to be passed around, et cetera. But it's real. And, you know, a lot of the people just say, I want bodies. I just need bodies. If I'll help pay for them and let them earn as they learn and that kind of thing. And it's really difficult. So, I mean, aside from just being women, there's There's also, and especially through NEIWIC, we have a lot of community outreach for the kids. I mean, as young as elementary and, you know, certainly high school, we're concentrated there. But the junior high kids, the middle school kids are a big concentrated effort for us as well to introduce them to construction, to make them understand that construction is not a job, it's a career choice. And certainly, Speaking with teenagers, which is always a lovely reminder of how the world works. Yeah, there you go.
You're being kind. You're being kind.
Yeah, well, you know, because I remember being 15 years old, I certainly didn't think I was going to be selling traffic cones and, you know, drums for a living. And talking to Jim Bouchard about, you know, women in construction at 15, I thought I was going to— I was heading in a different path. But I grew up in a construction family, ironically. But we weren't the ones that, you know, the girls weren't the ones on the big equipment, but my brothers were, you know. But nonetheless, we want those kids to be excited about what the careers in construction holds. And you can't, you can't export our jobs for infrastructure. And housing is a real crisis. And things like that where construction— and anytime you break the ground, it's considered construction. And there, it's an industry that is not going to go away. We'll have our peaks and valleys, absolutely, like we felt in 2008. Overall, it's not going away. It can't. It can't. We see this in our current streets and even today's news. I mean, you turn on the news, there's something else that needs to be addressed immediately. So women can be on the forefront of that and shall be on the forefront of that. That's my prediction anyway, because we're very good at it. I mean, I will tell you, I have a program up in New Hampshire I'll touch upon a little bit for Construction Career Days for the high school students. And we're going into our 10th event this year. And, you know, we've put through about 9,000 kids. All told.
Wow.
And it's a two-day— two half days. I mean, they're only there for half an hour, half a day, 4 hours on interactive equipment, etc. But I'll tell you, that interaction and getting them excited about getting on a piece of machinery or behind a laser or putting together logos or experiencing, like in your similar case, you know, you experienced down in Groton, Connecticut, Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. I mean, they have a screamer of an apprenticeship program. And put these kids out there in front of them, and they had no clue. They really didn't have a clue what was waiting for them, because construction— construction is not just hammers and nails and dirt. It's— it covers everything from engineering to planning to design. Anything that you look at around your world, construction plays a huge part. So there's a lot of different aspects to it that I don't think people are really— they don't know firsthand what it really does involve, and it's amazing. I learn every day about some other facet of it.
No, it is. It's amazing. And there's lessons that I learned, you know, from working, you know, from the time I was a kid, I worked for my dad, you know, around the contracting. And then yet at the time, you're working on the Trident submarines in Groton. I mean, that was really cutting-edge technology. I was a pipe fitter, but, you know, to understand how a nuclear reactor is put together and to see how all the parts come together, that's a very sophisticated machine. Still is. I mean, but at that time it was the cutting edge. And you're right about that, but we still have— and it's awful because I have to tread lightly on this. I see and I get to work with so many remarkable people, especially in our, in our aspiring leaders track, remarkable young people who are energetic. They want to get involved in these things. They want to work. They want to work hard, you know. At the same time, we have some— I call them kind of useful generalizations, right? You can't judge the group by the general— I mean, an individual by the group, but the idea that the millennial generation and now the Generation Z, whatever it is, right, right, right, it's ironic. Each, each generation sees that the next one has changed somewhat, and I, I think that there's pretty much a consensus, with the notable exceptions, that there's been a shift in work ethic. And of course, when you're talking about the trades like this, uh, and, and I want to come back and talk about management and all that stuff because that's really important too, But get people in there where they can do something. And I'll tell you what, the feeling of accomplishment, you know, I still go by sometimes when I'm back visiting, you know, where I grew up. I see buildings that, that, you know, I worked on with my dad. And I sometimes on TV, I see the USS Michigan. I said, you know what, I helped build that thing. That's an enormous feeling of pride that, you know, you really, you really, you made something that is tangible, right? Instead of sitting on a video screen where nothing's really being produced.
I don't know. But I think along those lines too, one of the biggest questions that has been asked, and with relationship to the generational differences, especially the millennials, but even like the millennials that are just about hitting 40 at this point.
Yeah.
And those that are just 21s. I mean, there's a significant difference in attitude. And partly it's because the work experience now and life experiences are different. And again, you can't just take that generalization, put it every single person.
Right, exactly.
But one of the things that I know, as far as construction is concerned and its future, is that we do have to stay relevant in ways of technology. Drones, for instance, drones on our construction site, they proved to be indispensable as far as watching for safety, looking out for the, you know, the forest for the trees, for instance, because they can go above everything and take a quick picture. Getting on an excavator or a Backhoe, for instance, when my brothers learned in the late '60s how to operate a backhoe, the real good ones, and I will say I had a couple of them that were just innately great at running a piece of equipment. Right. Today you get in there, it's a cockpit.
It is, isn't it? GPS and lasers and, oh yeah.
I mean, there's a lot of things to that, and I mean, that goes across a lot of industries, but especially in the construction industry, you have to have that. And the kids, when they sit down at a simulator, whether it be for a semi or for an excavator or for whatever the piece, even a pilot for that matter. But when you sit down and you realize that you're running a backhoe and there's a lot of little gadgets to it, I mean, they get excited. It is like video game to them because they have been—
That's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting.
So I mean, there's still a lot of hard work and don't knock— there's no way of getting around that, but it's the hard work that It's very rewarding, like you say. At the end of the day, when you talk to someone in their, you know, maybe mid to late 40s, or now maybe mid to late 60s even, and they're still on the construction job, yeah, they have sore feet and sore back and whatever else, but they also have a beautiful home, and they've made well their life, and they're able to take their vacations, and they're able to retire eventually too. And we see it with a lot of the big companies and the mom-and-pops as well. I mean, I certainly am no, no, um, big company by any stretch, but what I've been able to do is— and I'm sitting in a unique position because a lot of the construction side of things, you don't think of this, but public works, our public works departments, that's who I work with primarily, and they're retiring. My municipal guys are retiring like unbelievable because they're all, you know, that late generation of baby boomers, and because of the way our pension systems have worked and the culture of that particular public entity. I mean, we have a lot of retirees coming out, and who's replacing them? Who's coming, stepping up as our road agents up in New Hampshire, our public works directors in Maine, in New England, and throughout the country?
Not—
you know, we have a shortage there. I will tell you, the water treatment plants, they're screaming for operators, and they'll pay them dearly. And we have diesel mechanics, they're few and far between. So anyone coming out of diesel mechanic school can name their own ticket because that's how desperate they are. It's not as it was back in the '60s.
You're hitting the nail right on the head. And it's so interesting because, you know, Mike Rowe famously did a video last— was it last year, the year before? And talked about two things. I thought he just hit it out of the ballpark on two major components of this, this problem. First of all, that we've devalued the trades, you know, that we've somehow taken the honor out of it. I mean, it used to be— I still think it is— it's a miracle when you see somebody that can work with their hands and create something, you know, and what they can do. That's an amazing thing, should be held in the highest esteem. But for how long have we said, well, the only way to be successful in life is to go get a college degree and do this and do that and the other thing? Of course, sometimes you have to get the college degree to run the backhoe now, yeah. But, um, you know, and the other side of it was— and of course he built his whole show around this— the idea that we're going to get dirty doing something, right? But it is so rewarding. And the two major issues too, you know, one of the tracks that we— thankfully keeps us very busy, but with younger, particularly with younger generations, although not exclusively, is that idea that people have difficulty dealing with uncertainty, particularly in leadership, right? That challenge of not knowing exactly what's going to happen tomorrow and how do we, you know, be comfortable with that uncertainty and be flexible and adaptable. And I think more than anything, you know, my work, my life in the trades taught me how to do problem solving, right? Something doesn't go together exactly the right way, and the tolerances, especially in the shipyard, the tolerances were very tight. You know, something isn't going to work just right. How do we make this happen? How do we solve this problem, right? Right on the ground, right in real time. So those are huge things. But I still want to get back to that generational thing because I know we haven't talked in a while. I just did a workshop just a couple months ago where I had set somebody up as a representative of the millennial generation, right? She was talking about— she was taking umbrage to some of the other folks in the audience who were questioning the work ethic of that generation. And I had hoped she was going to debate them, right? But the first thing she did, she stood up and it was just what you just said because the millennials are getting a little older now, right? So she stood up and she said, "Jim, I don't know how to deal with the younger people in my office." I said, "There it is," right? I couldn't have set it up any better. We go through that. Certainly there are trends that we see generation to generation, but I think we do— and I'm curious to get your take on this as a leader, especially, you know, you've run your own company for so long. You know, how do you manage, you know, that generational shift and the idea that there's still a through line there, right? The thing that's constant is that things are changing, right? But I don't know if people's fundamental needs and desires are changing too much. What exactly changes generation to generation? Is it just the communication? Are there some big cultural issues we have to face as leaders?
I think that with respect to where I sit and what I've been experiencing, especially with the kids that I've worked with, is you have to listen. You have to stop no matter where you're at. You have to stop and listen. I hear myself saying, "Oh, that music sucks," or whatever. I don't call that music.
Well, most of it does. I have to agree with you there.
Well, see, but therein lies maybe our generational perception. Perception of things, or, you know, the social media aspects. But you have to, no matter what it is, I mean, go back to the fundamentals of leadership and just know that first and foremost, we, we have two ears and one mouth and we should be listening twice as much, right? And even with the kids that I talk to, it's talking to and talking with are different. And you do have to listen. If you don't listen to them, then you're not treating them with the do respect and it's, I will tell you, I have a very short window for that, for them to earn that. Because if they're mouthy or if they're this or they're that and they're disrespectful for me, I don't care what age you're at, you're not getting away with it. You know, I know who I am and I'm good about that. But with respect to getting through to anyone, you have to be aware of how you're listening. I have nieces and nephews that are certainly younger than I. I have great-nieces and nephews at this point. And you listen to them, and it's not all that much different than the way maybe I was listening. But I know that when I was 14, I was not a 14-year-old of today. I just know that I was a lot more mature. I had a lot more going at that point. But that's me, and I'm not going to put me onto, you know, her or him because their life experiences are different. Their parents were different. Their whole world is different. But I think that that is the biggest thing that we can ask of them is to close that gap, find out what makes them tick, and, and kind of work with them on that. Because you're not gonna— you— my biggest thing, and this is how I am still to this day, um, I will get up and do the dishes every single time, but if you tell me to do the dishes, I'm not doing them. It's just— it's something—
the rebel streak, huh?
Yeah, well, it's just because— no kidding, I have to do the dishes. You don't need to tell me No, but on the flip side, if there was a better way to do the dishes and you approached me in such a way that I was willing to listen to that— I know it's a simple analogy, but that's how— that's what we should be doing is using simple analogies.
Yeah.
These kids do know a lot of stuff. Capitalize on them. They need mentors, however. We need to put people out in front of them that look like them. So if they're people of color, we need to make sure that— if they're speaking different languages, we have to have that. If they're 20-somethings, they don't want to hear from a 50-something. They need to hear and see and think that it's possible for them, and those role models have to stay out in front. And women, especially in the construction industry, I mean, that's where NAWIC stands up and says, "Hello, we're here," because we, we do have the wide— we, we run the gamut of titles, job titles, and we also run the gamut of diversity. Our Membership is not, um, other than we're all women. The gender thing is the only thing that we have down pat as far as being the same.
But you're very welcoming to men at your events, so that's okay. That's right, I appreciate that.
We'll give you a pass, you know what I'm saying?
There you go.
Yeah, your best behavior. But, but we, we do it. We have to have the men in our lives. I mean, I'm, I'm no fool. I've been married for a good long time, and the man that I married, thankfully, is, you know, one in a million and I got them. And but our employers are also men, and we have to know that in this MeToo situation that we're in right now. Oh, construction has been an obvious harassment environment. However, the women that are in it have almost had that expectation walking in, and that is not fair to say, nor are they— not that, not that it makes them a fair game. And I don't know that I want to go on this tangent right at this minute.
I think I hear what you're saying. Yeah.
I will tell you that, you know, that was the expectation, so therefore it was okay, or the cultural okayness of really insulting and hurting a person, no matter man or male or female, but especially a woman, and calling her derogatory things and etc., or putting her in a situation that was very threatening. That's rampant, and that is unacceptable and never right. However, in construction That's one of the reasons why women say, you know what, I ain't putting up with this, and you know, see ya.
Exactly, exactly right. No, and that's the impression that I got all along, that generally around, you know, in the home construction, and we did commercial construction, and definitely in the shipyard. The shipyard at that time, you know, they were starting to see that because more women were getting into the yard, and I'll tell you, by and large, the women handled it. I mean, if somebody was derogatory, you know, they stood up, say no, That's it. I'm not taking that. And what happened with that too is a lot of the other guys would rally around them as well, you know. So yeah, I like, you know, I like that attitude. And again, it's— I know we have to dance on eggshells with this, right? But I think there is something to be said for that. You know, you have the power to stand up for yourself. And often when you do that, other folks will come to your aid, men or women that are put in bad situations.
But And I think just having the conversation out there is good. And I will, I wanna give some credit. There's an ironworker trades union out in Chicago, an ironworker trades union, and Vicki O'Leary is the woman's name actually. And I was with her a couple months back and before all of this stuff, you know, this particular issue broke out like it has. And she said, you know, being on the job site, it was almost like a campaign began and it was similar to the Me Too, but it wasn't. And what she said is, instead of, you know, to the men out there is, you be the one, you be the one to step up. And that was like, I'm like, that's a catchphrase that should catch because that's, you don't have to hide behind or feel like, you know, whatever a guy would feel if they didn't step up. But you be the one to show you know, that you're good and kind and you're not going to put up with this anymore. And so I thought that, like, oh, we're going to find some kind of format to make that work for us.
Oh no, you know, it sounds like this is, if you'd come back again, this is a topic that we could spend, you know, an entire show on. And I think it really sits, you know, with the idea that generally we just have to return our entire culture back to some balance of civility and respect. And that's That's been an ongoing issue. But I also didn't want to let go of something that you mentioned just a couple of minutes ago. Again, we're back to the idea of managing across diversity and across generations and whatnot. But the idea of listening, I think, is so powerful. I'm so glad you brought that up. Often I'm asked by people, how do I motivate fill in the blank, right? And I say, I don't know, you're asking me. I'm not the person you're trying to motivate. Didn't you go and ask that other person, the person you're trying to motivate? Did you ask them why they're working with you? Why are they doing the job they're doing? What excites them? And to be able to sit down and, you know, and shut up at that point, right? And to be able to open the ears. I like what you said. So I really want to thank you for bringing that up. Let's take a little turn into the management administration part because I know NAWIC is so instrumental in that to encourage women to come into, you know, not just the trades, but the— isn't it awful to say just the trades? That's a foolish thing to say. Yeah, just is a foolish word. But let's say it's not limited to trades. You're also wanting to attract women to management positions, engineering, and yet again, we have this divide. And what's interesting is, you know, I was puzzled by it because we're constantly trying to encourage young women to get into these different activities. But there's a couple of very famous recent polls that said that generally young women wanted to do other things, social jobs, teaching, counseling, healthcare, things like that. So, and I'm not for forcing anyone, but how do we encourage? Do you think that there are more young women that would open up to the opportunities if they knew they could get in at that other level? If they were being administrators and managers?
Yeah? Yeah, I think so. In fact, I think that's the gateway for a lot of women to get into the industry is to be in the administrative side of things. Just recently, a friend of mine whose daughter, you know, has her first quote-unquote real job, but she's in payroll at a construction company. And because of my position, of course, in social media, she sees my blasts all the time about NAWIC or whatever it is that I'm doing. And, you know, it kind of went full circle for me. And I said, that's excellent, because she's— because I said about the trades, and I said about women, the parity is not equal yet, but we do make about 11 cents more on the dollar in the construction than women do in any other industry, et cetera. And she attested to that, you know, this 21-year-old, she attested to that. She goes, "Yeah, you should see their paychecks," meaning the, the linemen, the tradeswomen in her company. She's like, "Yeah, they're making huge money." And I'm like, "See, that's that." It's a level of measurement that you have to go to it. And it's also job satisfaction on the other end of that. But as far as women, a lot of the women, especially like in NAWIC, I will say that initially, and that's how NAWIC started 63 years ago, these women were in the office and they needed to have that camaraderie, if you will, to at least convince a little bit about what can we do to make this better for all of us, you know, like from paperwork to, you know, the job flow, safety issues, being under budget and on time was just a fantasy once upon a time, but because of technology it's becoming more of a reality, etc. So we want— I think where NOWIC comes in, and this is one of the powerful things about a lot of women being together in a very positive way is that we're— we— our tagline is, you know, NAWIC builds leaders, and NAWIC builds, period. And leaders is what we're building, but we want women to have to build the confidence within themselves. Again, I can't make them me. I don't want— there's no reason for another Catherine in the world, but I want them to be the best person they can be, or at least feel comfortable with at whatever point they're at. So if you're at 20-something, or if you're, you're at 50-something, or 30, or 40, or Wherever you're at in your world, you're coming to the table with a completely different set of not only experiences but confidence levels, intelligence. I describe myself in our board right now, our national board, I am that forest for the trees. I'll always take that general glimpse of everything and I really appreciate that. I know I'm a generalist. I mean, if you want to label me as something business-wise.
That's not a bad thing to be.
But what I do and what I know I know about myself, like my strengths are that, and you know, I certainly can get into the weeds as well being a business owner, but I don't have to because I've got people around me that are going to be— they're going to be the trees in that forest, and then I've got other people that are going to be the leaves on the trees, and then I've got other people that are the leaves on the— the needles on the leaves on the trees in the forest. You know what I mean? Like we build each other, we complement each other. And I think that what NAWIC allows— the way it's structured, the way we go— we have chapters. We have about 120-some-odd across the United States. We have regions, we have 8 of those, and then we have the national, to which we have 16 proud women, you know, sitting there. And at the chapter ground level is where the member first is introduced to NAWIC, and she's able to get on committees immediately. She's able to sit with professional women and talk about the industry and different aspects, much like you and I are having this conversation today. She gets to be introduced to something lovely called Robert's Rules of Parliamentary Procedure.
Of course.
But it's a point of order. And you know, when you go— I don't know if anyone— you know, like a lot of us, and I'll say I can speak for myself, at 24 years old walking into your first board meeting, and not in NAWIC, in a completely different industry, and you're in there primarily with men, you may have one other woman, and if you're 24, you're a young woman too. But then they do these motions and all. I mean, it's very, very intimidating and you lose your breath. If you— what NAWIC's allowing our members and the women that we come in contact with is the first-time opportunity to sit at a table comfortably and really be able to listen because they don't have any of those other external factors around them. And not only to sit at the table, but eventually to have a voice at that table. No longer is it going to be, "Oh, I had a great idea about the wall color on that particular design that we had." You're sitting there and you're spouting like, "I really do believe it should be X, Y, or Z." It goes around the table, goes around the table, and your X, Y, and Z color all of a sudden comes out of John's mouth across the way. The whole room shuts up and logs on John, "What a great idea, and why didn't we think of that?" You said it 20 minutes ago.
I've been in some meetings like that.
It happens. You know, it happens an awful lot to the women. But no longer is that the case because— well, it would never happen to me, I can promise you. But it would happen, and it has happened too many times. And I think that time and time again, when the stories are told like that, much like what your reaction just— everyone has the same because they've seen it. It's witnessed. One of the best kind of comedians is those that— the comedians that crack up the audiences, are those that are relating their story.
Yeah, it's real, right?
It is real, and it's comical to the point of like, you know what, I didn't think of it that way.
But you know, they take the sting out of it. That's all right.
Yeah, it does. So the women that we come across, and one of the primary reasons why we're able to retain, and we do an excellent job at our membership retainment, and we're not going to get everybody, and we're not everybody's best friend probably, but The women that do seek, you're going to get what you— whatever you put in is what you're going to get out of it primarily. But you're also going to have instant mentors around you or instant cheerleaders and instant team. And it makes a world of difference. It's amazing what kind of accomplishments. And all of a sudden, if you have that aha moment, and I have had many, saying, wow, I don't need to do it all myself. Yeah, I don't have to do every single thing. I can delegate. I know what that word means now. I'm not 100% there, but I can delegate. No, Type A personnel is tough to get around that delegation thing.
No, so love, love, love what you're saying about that, especially, you know, this is something that always comes up in our aspiring leaders programs, especially, you know, I ask who in this room has a mentor, and I swear that in, you know, our polling, our little survey SL15 that we do, Same thing for that group. When we ask who has a mentor right now, it only runs usually less than 10%. Isn't that frightening? And yet another question we have in that poll is how important is having a mentor to your success, right? And everybody agrees that it's critical or very highly important at the very least. Very seldom we get a response less than that, but they're not out there doing it. So you're encouraging that, I think, is just, just huge. Now, I know we kind of keep this to about a half hour so people can listen to it on lunch break, but we've got to have you back again if you're willing. But I don't want to leave this if you have a couple more minutes. How many men do you— you manage mostly men in your company? Has that been your experience?
As far as my customers are concerned, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, because I— and I will say, you know, I've been in the public works side of construction since '96. So, over 21 years now, and the level of professionalism and the number of women have increased. But yes, they're primarily men. I mean, I'll go in and, you know, I teach work zone safety and flagger training and that kind of thing, and it's, it's, if I have one woman out of 20, I'm like, yay! You know, but it is, it's primarily men, and you know, I'm very much aware of it. I'm obviously not intimidated by it, but it's because you're relatable. And I will say, in the last 21 years, my audience is younger than me now, you know. So that's the other thing. I mean, if they're not at my equal, they're younger than me. And so I'm either their aunt or mother at this point.
I feel your pain.
I have an upper hand as far as respectability, maybe.
But yeah, in certain settings, right?
Yeah.
Yeah. What are some of the, what are some of the best What's some of the best advice you can give from your experience to women leaders, uh, not necessarily just in construction, you know, anybody who's— anybody who finds— because it's interesting, when I was working in television production, I tell the story very often, um, I don't know that it was an unusual shop, but someone who's been one of my best friends for most of my life now, uh, she fancied herself the mom of the rest of us. We were renegade young guys, you know, that were getting in all kinds of trouble, and she kind of Yeah, but we worked mostly for women. She was the first female director of a major television station in the, in the country, so she's kind of an interesting person. But I think at that time, 4 out of the 6 directors that we worked for on a daily basis were women, so that was kind of an interesting perspective. But when you're managing, how do you manage us young renegade guys? What's your best advice for women that are in that position? Debbie used to just, she literally did used to smack us in the back of the head sometimes. I don't think you can do that anymore.
Well, I think that the zero tolerance, you have to create a culture in which everybody's comfortable because everyone's gonna have, like I said, we come through that door and we don't know what we're doing. One of the analogies that I have was, you know, a flagger in a work zone, if you're a flagger, you're a flagger. And that person has to be awake and aware and, you know, for a lot of good reasons. Number one, safety, you wanna get home home tonight, but if they walk in and they've been assigned the flagging detail for that day and they're in a crappy mood, they've had a tough night, maybe they have a new baby at home or maybe something else, maybe they just, just had an off night, doesn't matter, and they come in and they have attitude. As a leader and as a supervisor or even as a coworker, it's your responsibility not to have that person be out in front because that's a very visual, um, public place to be and what a terrible thing for you to do. Let them pound sand all day, let them go and take that shovel and work where they're supposed to work. As far as, you know, the whippersnappers or the, you know, whatever you want to call the different— you probably would, as a leader, you get a good feel right off the bat as to how they work together and how they work separately, and you have to pay attention to that dynamic. And if you're not paying attention to it, then you probably have no business being in the position you're in because it's not about you. And if you think it's about you, then, well, I can't help you there. The selfishness will hurt you every single time because if you have that narcissistic attitude, it's going to come back to bite you. And certainly heads are going to roll. You can't get the credit without taking some of the blame. So I think that those things— the only other thing that I think that we've gotten away from, and I know I've heard it time and time again, and I smile broadly every single time people such as yourself that I'm in a training session with and I'm you know, that one little cue comes up, and it's keeping a journal, a physical journal. And handwriting, for me, when I see it written, I can— I keep it. I mean, that's something that I retain. And if I'm writing it, if I'm actually physically writing it down— like my husband's, "Use your phone for your appointments." And I said, "I'll never remember it because it's not real. That's just typing." But if I— all my journals, my— and as simple as a calendar, You know, I write down quick little things about whatever it is, and I can refer back on this day 5 years ago, what was I doing on December 19th in, you know, 2012 or whatever year it was, and it's important to reflect back because if we don't, if we're not paying attention to what we're doing right now, we're not learning from it maybe, and we don't have to make all the mistakes, but I think journaling is a huge part of becoming a better person and a better leader. So that's the only other huge piece of advice that I would give anyone that's in a position going forward. Record yourself. Make sure you're paying attention to how you're responding or reacting. Hopefully it's response mode and not a reaction mode, but that's, that's a big part of the dynamic of being a good leader, I think, is knowing who you are and what tolerance is. And I'll tell you, you know, this is a quick— this is exactly what it is, all right? You're with family during holidays, and guess who pushes your buttons the quickest, right?
Those brothers and sisters that know you you so well.
I remember when you were, you know, 4 or 5 years old, and, or 14, 15, worse even, you know. And they'll— and no matter what, no matter what I do, you know, it's still going to be those times. But retrospective, be retrospective on your own world, and I think that you'll be able to pass that forward onto someone else. And I think that that retains and gains respect.
That is a perfect thought to wrap things up on because, you know, You are absolutely the sensei leader in every aspect of the way we apply that word. Let's really quickly before we sign off, and hang with me just a second, the technical things after the show, I'll visit with you for just a second, but let's talk to how to get people involved with NAWIC. You owe me a commission. I turned somebody on to you in Atlanta the other day. It was a woman who was the chief engineer for the hotel I was staying at.
Oh, good.
We got talking and I said, have you have heard about NAWIC and she said no. And so I said, well, you got to go online right now and you need to join that. So how do people get in touch with NAWIC and how do they join?
The simplest is nawic.org and it's N-A-W-I-C dot org. And there's a homepage membership dropdown menu. There's an online application. Certainly there's ways you can just pick up the phone and call. Beth Brooks is our executive vice president at the office. It's also Lori McCullough who is in charge of our membership processing. She's also— any one of the staff actually at the NAWIC office would be willing to talk to you. And then you also would have access to the officers and leadership around the country. So if you're interested, say for instance you're in New England or the Northeast, you know, you click on that section of the country and you'll have 15 chapters to choose from. If you're in the North Central, if you're in the Pacific Northwest, etc. So I mean, you go to the area of the country that you want, and that's how simple it is. And then From that, we'll drop down the chapters and you can identify the closest chapter in your area. Because you do want to— my recommendation is you do want to tie into the chapter because that's where your best business practices will happen. Networking, relating to the economics of your area. Certainly if you're in a contracting situation, your business contacts increase. Those kinds of things are all fundamentally important, obviously. And you'll have buy-in from your employer if they're going to put the bill for for your dues and that kind of thing, which is what we want. Because all too often, you know, if we're not asked, we won't ask. And that's unfortunate. And I'm saying that as a woman. And, you know, women need to be asked a lot of the times or told and encouraged a little bit more so than we're used to. And once you were asked, it's a flatter and it's a legitimate— it's not to blow smoke. It's real. It's legitimate. We've got some great powers. I always say to my gals when we're all together in a meeting or whatever, we've got power in the room and that we're going to exercise it in full capacity. So just nawic.org, go on, take a look. Certainly if there's questions, ask them.
Catherine, thank you so much. And I'll tell you, I'm just going to add my endorsement to it. You know, having worked with NAWIC, I think 2, maybe 3 events so far, and I've got to tell you, it's a powerful organization, very powerful group, wonderful leadership. Just love working with you guys, and I've got to tell you, you throw a good party too. So people need to get involved. I really do believe that you're the future of what's going to happen, you know, in the construction area and in the trades and industry going forward. So thanks again for— and hope the first of many visits because you've got an awful lot of wisdom you can share with us.
Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it.
Thank you.
All righty.
Thanks for listening to Walking the Walk.
Walk.
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