021 Judy Hoberman––Walking on the Glass Floor

Empowering women in business is certainly a hot topic today, and Judy Hoberman does much more than talk about it. She's walking on the glass floor, and that's what we're going to talk about today on this episode of Walking the Walk.

Welcome to Walking the Walk, the program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start walking the walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

You know, it's been said many times that much of what you're going to accomplish in the next year or so is a product of the people you spend time with. And I like to spend time with Judy Hoberman. She's a dear friend and mentor and a powerful force in my life, and it's a blessing to be able to share her with you again today. Her new book is Walking on the Glass Floor: 7 Essential Qualities of Women Who Lead. So let's get right into it. Judy, Scarlett Johansson was interviewed a few days ago about the wage gap in Hollywood. I was watching this and And I just read an article that placed her as one of the highest paid, arguably one of the most influential entertainers in the world today. So I'll play the out-of-touch old man today, if that's okay with you. And I couldn't help wondering why, if she doesn't feel that she's being— if she still feels she's being unfairly treated, why doesn't she just assert herself and ask for more money? So go ahead and tell me exactly what I'm missing.

You know, okay, so yes, there's a lot of different examples and case studies about men and women not being paid fairly and equally. And I do believe that there are some countries countries that have already put the laws in place, like Iceland being one of them, that everybody has to be paid the same. But when you're in Hollywood, it's common knowledge that the women are not being paid as well and as much and as fairly. However, you are being paid well, and sometimes it gives you the platform to talk about this. If you back out and say, "Well, forget about this. I'm not doing it until I'm paid." you might not have that platform anymore. So she's very powerful, she is very intelligent, and sometimes using the platform will also get you what your ultimate goal is.

Yeah, well, doesn't this go to a lot of the issues? And I know we're gonna focus on your book and on the issues that women are facing today, but it seems to me in our society, there's a lot of that, yeah, I'm just not gonna push hard enough attitude. Or I'm going to wait around for somebody else to do it attitude. Again, am I way off base, or are you seeing the same thing? And more important, what can we do about it?

Well, one of the things— no, you're not way off base. And a lot of times, it's much easier not to have the confrontation. And women are truly into building relationships. And when you break the relationship because you have spoken up, even though it is the right thing to do, it's also very difficult to mend that relationship. But with that said, you have to be able to have champions on your side. And that's why I always talk about, you know, when I talk about women, it's not just women in business, it's not just women in leadership, it's the men that champion them. It's the men that sponsor them. And if you have some strong men that will actually fight for your rights, it also opens another whole door. And so, you know, I know that you're very active in, you know, promoting women and advocating for women. And I have a lot of men that do the same thing. Well, if there's more men that step up to the plate and will serve and support in the right roles, That's what women are also looking for. Not that they can't do it themselves, and I'm not saying that, but they can do it themselves. It might take a little bit longer in certain industries. In many industries, it doesn't. You know, you just talk, you know, you fight for it and it happens or it doesn't. But yeah.

Well, ironically, I know there's a connection because we both do a lot of work for National Association of Women in Construction, and you'd think of any place, you know, they would have the most difficult time. But so many of the women there are so strong and assertive and they're getting ahead. I appreciate what you're saying and, you know, thanks for the compliment, but I have to say this. I don't advocate for women because they're women, you know. I advocate for very, very talented people. I'm just very open to the idea that, you know, in my life I've always— I worked for women a lot in broadcast for one thing. My mom was a strong woman and her mother before her, they were both very strong women. And so to me it's a matter of seeking out the talent and that's, I guess, where I'm struggling with all of this right now. Is there really a true gap or or is there an awareness that men don't sometimes get credit for that, you know, not that we're willing to work with women that are talented and powerful, but we want to, 'cause that's how together we get things done.

Right, but if they're not given the opportunity, you can't work with them, you know? And I do believe exactly what you said. I don't believe somebody should hire someone because they are female. I believe they have to hire the right candidate. But when you open it up to, you know, men and women. You know, my tagline is women want to be treated equally, not identically. We just, yeah, we just want the same opportunities, that's all. And a lot of times we're given an opportunity for the wrong reason. Like, I know for a fact that my first promotion when I was in insurance, my very first promotion was because I was female and they needed a female in that position. Well, I did have to prove myself over and over and over again, and once I did, all of a sudden I became You know, like valuable, but if I wasn't given an opportunity and, and it wasn't the right way to get the opportunity. Now, had they asked me, I'm not sure if I would've taken the opportunity at that point in my life. So in one respect, as bizarre as it was, cuz I was given it because I was female, I may not have taken it if somebody asked, you know what I'm saying? So a lot of times, yeah. And, and I do believe that if you are not the right candidate and just because you're female, you shouldn't get the, that promotion or you shouldn't get the position. It's always about the right candidate. And women will tell you that all the time. If I'm not right, I don't want it. But if I'm right, I should have the opportunity.

Really interesting. And we won't get into all this today. It would take too much time. But recently, on a related issue, I was told by a woman that I was working with that I had no right to a particular opinion just because I was a man. So, based on that, I'm going to reach out a little bit. One of the things that happens, I think, with the opportunities, and I'm not saying that there aren't men who are closed-minded to working with women and vice versa. But the, you know, probably networking is a huge part of it, I guess is the point. And it's not so much that men are trying to be dismissive of women, but you generally hire and do business with the people that are close to you, that are in your network. Now, there's a woman that we want to connect you with. I'm sure Alex has talked about this, Nana Wanjoh from Kenya, from Nairobi. And she's got this wonderful thing going on, and she talked about that. She says that, you know, we can't wait around for men to give us the opportunity, can't wait around for men to lift us up. We have— women have to stick together. And her thought, maybe she's the cranky old guy today, she said that men tend to stick together better than women do and support one another. Do you think that's part of the equation, or again, am I— I have no right to say this because I'm a man, so I'm going to defer to you.

Well, I mean, you can have a right, you have a right to say anything you want, but you know, yeah, but you know, honestly, um, The first thing I hear all the time when we talk about women in business together is, oh, women don't wanna work together, they don't wanna support each other, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. While that is the case in many aspects, it is not the case in the majority. You know, I have suffered through that. I know what it's like when women don't collaborate and when women are mean to each other. I thought I was in the Mean Girls movie, like making a cameo appearance. And I didn't want to be there because I was not the mean girl. I was the victim. But the truth of the matter is there are so many women that are open to supporting other women, to elevating women, to empowering women. And sometimes it, you have to be the one that asks. And that's also very difficult for women. You know, when we don't want to ask, can you support me? Can you help me? Can you sponsor me? Can you do this? Can you mentor me? And you know, I'm finding it more and more that women are raising their hands now and women are saying, I need some help. I need some support. Where we didn't do that just a few years ago. So I don't think that, you know, that there isn't the case of women not collaborating. It's just that we do it differently than men. You know, men slap you on the back and go, "Hey, let's go play a round of golf," after you've been like two attorneys fighting in the courtroom. Women fighting in the courtroom may not wanna talk to that other woman for a while, but men just go right on, you know, like, "What's the big deal?" It's like, you know, "Let's be ducks and let it roll off our backs." And women are a little bit more emotional and take things more about that relationship, and sometimes you feel like it, you know, It's personal. And a lot of times it isn't personal. A lot of times it is just business.

See, that's interesting because maybe I have too much time to think about these things, but I'm seeing that happening with men too. I'm seeing that as a cultural thing. And I know everything you talk about transcends, your focus is on empowering women. But my message to guys is you should be listening to Judy too. I mean, her message is just as applicable to us. And so again, I'm seeing that cultural shift that people are just way too damn sensitive, and you're right. You need conflict. You need a healthy degree of conflict in any organization, in any group of people to move things forward, but people are so attached to identity and are so vitriolic to one another these days that it's very difficult. Like you said, you get mad, you walk into your corners, and the sensible and constructive argument never takes place, no?

Well, I mean, yes and no. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I think, and it really just depends on what's going on. There are times when, I would have a conversation with someone and it would come up, you know, oh my God, I can't believe how women are doing this or how men are doing this. And yet that same person I could have a conversation with the next day and it never comes up. So it really depends on what's going on around them, what's going on in the climate of the country, what's going on, you know, there's so many things that you have to not talk about now because of what's going on, right? And then you find out, you know, you say something and like everybody's mean and sometimes, you know, so, Yes, the conversation does come up. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but I don't know. I don't think there's any real formula for that either.

No, we can spin off on that for days. But let's take the turn we need to take because you've got 7 qualities, essential qualities of women who lead. And I want to hear about some of those. And let's see if that transcends the gender gap a bit. I'm probably making the presumption that it will.

Well, it's, you know, it's so, it's so interesting. I talk about 7 qualities for women who lead because my book is really directed at women in leadership, emerging leaders, and also the men that champion them. And that's the interesting part because these qualities are some of the things that women forget we have as leadership qualities. I also do believe that some of the qualities, they're also for men who forget they have them. Mm-hmm. But when you think about men in leadership, the, it, it's very interesting the words that describe men and women, like men are, you know, aggressive. Aggressive and competitive and so on and so forth. And women are as well, but we don't want to be seen as that. We don't want to be labeled as that.

We want that labeled with less flattering terms.

Totally, totally. Which I'm sure, you know, this is a PG station, so I don't know. I'm just kidding. You know what I'm saying? But you know what I'm saying? So sometimes, you know, they even let the simple word like bossy, like bossy for women sometimes is like so negative, which it really isn't.

It has a connotation, right?

Absolutely. So when I talk about the 7 essential qualities, sometimes there are things that we naturally do, like they're inherent, and we just forget that they are really super leadership qualities. That's what it's about. So the qualities that I talk about are also qualities that men can use, but I just defer to the female version right now.

Right. You sexist, you terrible sexist.

I know, I know, what can I say? I talked somewhere and a woman called me sexist. And I said, are you serious? There you go. I am the most equal opportunity person ever. How could you call me sexist?

Isn't that strange? I mean, I've run into that recently too. And, you know, people say, you're so narrow-minded. I said, no, no, no. The reason I'm asking these questions is because I want to be enlightened. But damn, you got to make the argument, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. It's just so funny.

Let's get into those qualities. I want to hear all about them.

Okay, so the first one is passion. When you're a leader, you have to be passionate about what you do. And it doesn't mean that you have to wake up in the morning and jump out of bed and start screaming yelling, "Oh my God, I'm so excited." That's not—

Right, raw, raw stuff, yeah.

Right, but you have to be passionate about what you do. Even when I was corporate, I was passionate about what I delivered to the field and what I brought to my team because if you're not passionate about it, why would anybody else be? So passion is something that you live. It's how you show up. It's all these things that you just like say, "Okay, so here's what we're going to do and here's how we're going to do it," and just show that there's some oomph into it as opposed to going, "Okay, so today we're going to do this." —about it.

But you mean more of a deep sense of caring, right? Not just the excitement. Totally.

Okay. Absolutely. You have to care about what you do. You have to— you really have to love what you do. I was in insurance for 25 years. Can you imagine being passionate about insurance? Well, I was. And sometimes people would say to me, I don't know what you're doing and what you're selling, but I need to be part of it. That's what they would say to me because I was always excited about what I did and how I could support you and how I could, you know, protect your family. I was excited about protecting you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

So I know exactly what you mean. In fact, you drill down behind, you know, so many times I ask a question at workshops. I say, why are you doing your job? And people will say various things and money comes up, you know, a lot too. And I said, no, no, no. Why are you doing your job? What are you doing? What do you do for people? Right. And that's what you're talking about though. Right.

And you just remember the why. You have to remember your why. It's like, you know, when you're in sales, when you get the person's why, why are they sitting in front of you? Why do they need what you have? Why are, you know, why are they choosing you? When you get their why, it's golden. Well, it's the same thing. You have to have your why. You have to remember your why. Why are you doing what you're doing? And there's the passion. Because if you're just doing it because— if I said, well, I'm gonna be the black belt girl because Jim is doing it and he loves what he's doing, so I'm gonna do that. And I'm also gonna be the Scentsy leader female, you know, because Jim is doing it. Well, that's because you're doing it. Just because you're doing doesn't mean it's right for me. I have to have my why.

Well, you're way past that anyway, so don't worry about it.

No, no, no, no. But you know what I'm saying? I mean, you have to remember your why. And when you struggle in the morning, morning because the week had just like sucked, or the month, and you're not making any money or whatever, you have to go back to your why and say, okay, here's why I'm doing it.

You know? Absolutely. So we got passion down.

What's the next one? Authenticity. Amen. Amen, brother. You know, like social media. You go onto social media, you see all these people doing all these amazing things. Well, how much of it is really true? You know, and then you say, well, why can't I be her? You know, she went to sleep last night, she got 27 speaking engagements and blah, blah, blah. And you know, right? So again, authenticity is also how you show up every single day, no matter what. You have to walk the walk. You have to talk the talk. You have to live the life. You have to be you. And you have to be the same person when you're on stage or off stage, when you're on camera or off camera. You have to be the person that somebody could say, wow, you have, you know, you are authentic. You have high integrity. Not that I'm telling you, oh my God, I have such high integrity. You know, that's ridiculous. You have to be the person that somebody can count on, that they don't have to say, "I wonder how many layers I have to peel back until I find the real person." Yeah, you're hitting on all cylinders with that one.

Sometimes it gets confused in, well, in the speaking world, in the entertainment world. I've heard it too. Friends of mine that are comedians— I'm a comedy junkie, so I've got a lot of friends that are comedians— and people will say, "Well, you're so different offstage." Well, that persona doesn't— it's not a reflection of inauthenticity. It's sometimes an exaggeration of who you are. Of course, you're going to be a different person as far as the persona goes when you're sitting and talking over a glass of wine than when you're on stage pumping people up. But it's those core values, right, that you can't run away from those core values, right? Is that what we're getting at?

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's so interesting that sometimes you work for a company and your core values are not the same as the company's and you have constant internal conflict every single time you go to work. And you're thinking like, what is going on here? Because you're so authentic doing what you're doing, and yet you're asked to be doing something that is not. And oh my goodness, and I've been through that, so I know what it's like not to be able to be yourself. And when somebody, even in a relationship, you know, when somebody says to you, I need for you to change, I need for you to do this, I need for you to be more like that, right? That's when you buy them the bus ticket. Well, you know, and it's so funny because many, a million years ago when I was single, um, A friend of mine said, "You have to be more needy." And I said, "Needy?" And he said, "Yeah, men like when you're needy." Oh my God. Not all of us. Well, I said, "Okay, so let's pretend that I become needy. What happens when this person who now is really interested in me meets the real me?" He goes, "Oh, by that time it's too late." Oh, you know, absolutely.

And you know, in spirit of full disclosure, I mean, I come from a different position of self-evaluation these days. But I can identify with that. There was many times in my life when, you know, a lot of how I got into this adventure is because I lacked any sense of self-value. And I hear you exactly. I remember going through a relationship therapy experience with somebody, and that was her ambition, was to change me. And thankfully, I don't think it turned out the way she wanted to because the therapist actually said, no, I mean, everybody wants to change things, but I don't see any deep problem here, which made me feel a little better at the time. You can't let people shape you that way unless you really want to take a look and say, yeah, there are things I need to change, which I think is really healthy for leaders as well.

Yeah, but that's when you're doing a self-evaluation. And you're more, you're reviewing who you are and what you are. And maybe there are things you want to change. But that has to be from you anyway. Exactly, exactly.

What's number 3? We've got passion, authenticity. These are two great ones. Courage. You know what? In spirit of full disclosure, I'm not leading Judy through this. We just hit on all cylinders because the core values, we share these core values. And you hit the, that's right now, that's the one that's getting me in the most trouble. And I think it's the most important, uh, you know, essential quality that we could possibly be developing in people. And I get, I'm going to take the slings and arrows here, but I see societal problems that can be solved by encouraging people to have more courage. And I see that particularly with some of the women's issues. Again, am I just cranky old guy or what? I know I am, but you know what I'm saying.

Yeah, no, I know, because I do believe that we have to show that we are courageous. And underneath courage, there's so many different factors. I mean, one is confidence, right? You know, and that is something that we all struggle with. I do a lot of talks on courage and on confidence, and it's very interesting. Once— and a lot of times it is just women— but once the women feel comfortable, and it's only a matter of moments, then they start talking about how much they lack in self-confidence, which also affects their courage. And, you know, and sometimes it goes back to when we were real little and somebody might have said something to us that, you know, you just, you don't even realize what you're saying. You know, you think about the self-chatter that we have as women. Well, it comes from when we're little, when somebody says, oh, you're not smart enough, or you can't take that class because you're not good enough, or you can't do it. You know, so, and I believe that the courage part is when you actually take a leap to do something. You know, for me, one of the things I've done recently was I did a TED Talk, and I have to say that while it was one of the most exciting and best things I've ever done, it was the scariest thing. And I had to— once I was approved, I had to figure out like, why the heck am I doing this?

And all those things go together—

scary, best. Oh, that's right, that's right. And so, you know, the courage that I had to, you know, really find, really deep down, I had to pull it up and say, well, why am I doing this? And And you know, and it was being very courageous. Or the other side of it, when I was 55 and I jumped from a corporate position where it was real cushy and lots of money and everything else and started my own company. And actually when I jumped, I had no company, I had no idea what I wanted to do. There's courage. And some people say to you, God, you're so courageous. And no, I'm not. And then you think about it and you're like, yes, I am. I'm pretty courageous. So yeah, I, I mean, that's a very big leadership quality. And I think that a lot of us you know, push it back down because you don't really think it's leadership. And why we—

No, no, no, I agree with you. It's one of, to me, you know, it's one of the three essential qualities that I talk about: courage, compassion, and wisdom. And you hit it, that courage and confidence are inseparable. But here's the thing, right? Courage is, I put it more on a spiritual plane, and it's not as tangible, right? Confidence we can measure. We can do a psych profile and measure someone's confidence. Here's the, here's the trouble. Courage only manifests in a moment. So like you said, when you take these chances, when you, when you embrace these scary things, because courage is not the absence of fear, the absence of fear is stupidity. But when you do that, then, then you're, you're manifesting courage, and you really don't know that until you're under fire. But confidence you can build, you can work on through training and preparation, right? As long as you don't depend for your confidence on a surety of an outcome. Right. And now we're back to courage again, because you've always got to take that to find courage in the moment. And that's the only place you can find it. You've got to take that leap, right? Absolutely.

And you think about like the leap of faith that people take when they say, okay, I am going to leave this position and start my own company, or I'm going to start my own company and now I'm going to do something online. And you know, whatever that step is where you don't have the safety net underneath you, there's, there's your courage.

I'm going to stand up to that male bully in the workplace, even though it might cost me my job.

Right? Or I'm going to have a conversation and give some feedback to someone that is totally inappropriate or totally out of their league. You know what I mean? And giving feedback is also part of being courageous. You have to be able to take it and you have to be able to give it.

That's where I got myself in trouble recently. We'll talk another time, but it was to just to stay on point. It had to do with by voicing exactly what we just talked about. I was accused— well, the person gave me a little out clause— I know it wasn't your intention, but you're blaming the victim. And I said, not at all. It has nothing to do with blame. It has nothing to do with even being a victim. It has to do with the solution. The solution is to cultivate courage and encourage, you know, that bravery in others. So yeah, that gets into a dicey conversation these days.

It does. And a lot of people don't want feedback. And especially, you know, when in what we do, you know, you want feedback. And I mean, I can I have stories about great feedback and I have stories about crappy feedback. And when you get the crappy feedback, you think, "Okay, I'm never speaking again," or "I'm never doing training again. I'm never going to do this again." And then you have to have the courage to get yourself up and do it again.

You've got to be brave. Absolutely. So we've got passion, authenticity, and courage. What's next?

Communication. And this is a humongous topic because communication is, you know, has to do with how you relate to people and how you ask questions and how you listen. But there's also more to it because there's a difference— Yeah, right. But it's also, you know, you have to remember that men and women communicate totally differently.

Okay, okay, don't go over the head with that one. Go ahead. How?

Yeah, well, you know, think about asking questions. Men are more transactional, women are more relational. So when we're in a sales conversation, I might ask you a question and I will get your personality almost by the first question. If I asked you a question that was a you know, a closed-ended question and it was a yes, no, or maybe so, and you went yep or nope, and there was no additional information, I would have to be able to, you know, to take my lead from you and I would start asking you more of those types of questions. But if I asked you a question and you gave me a whole story, then I'm thinking, okay, he's more relational and I'm gonna ask you open-ended questions. So, you know, it's a big difference. Most men like to talk in bullet points. You like to read an email in bullet points. You know, you just want the facts and the figures. And a lot of times, and I'm not saying you, Jim, but I—

I'm even, I'm questioning my manhood entirely. I don't think I'm a man.

Well, okay, but there's the opposite side of that. 'Cause there's a lot of women that do the same thing. They want bullet points. But the truth of the matter is, you know, the studies that have been done, if I ask you, if you ask me a question and I start rambling on and on, you're gonna tune me out until you hear that one important word again and then you'll tune me back in. And so I always tell people, you know, when you are sending an email, don't send a dissertation. Send some bullet points and let the person you're sending it to say, hey, you know what, I need more information on number 2. Okay, that's universal. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, communication is a very big topic. And the way we speak to each other, the way we communicate, the way we talk to the people that work for us, the people that we might work for, our teams, our spouses, our friends, you know, it's, it's a huge topic.

No, I couldn't agree more. And all leaders can benefit from an emphasis on active listening and really caring about what the other person is talking about.

Yeah, and the problem with active listening is we can actively listen for just a few moments. We can't actively listen for hours at a time. And I did a program on active listening. It was a 4-hour program. And so I had to have people getting up and down and doing all kinds of exercises because you cannot actively listen. Well, we got really good feedback from it, and they wanted me to do 8 hours. I'm thinking, like, are you kidding me? You can't actively listen for 8 hours. There's no way.

Well, I was just thinking maybe I am a freak because, you know, it's awful. I can sit through even hideously boring things for hours on end, but maybe there was a room of people that were more like me there. But no, you know what it was? It was you're so exciting. They wanted to hear you.

That's what it was. Yeah, but you can't be actively listening to me either. You know, ask the Colonel.

He'll tell you. I'll work on him. How about that? So passion, authenticity, courage, communication, decisiveness.

All right. Now, let me just say, let me make a comment about this first.

I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna let you roll with this one. I'm not even gonna get myself.

I know. Now, you know, many people would prefer to work with men because you make decisions quickly. And when you know, if it's a buying decision, and you say you want it, you, your hand, your credit card is out. Where with women, we want to talk about it, we want to collaborate on it, we want to find someone else that might have done it. We do all these things, we make the decision, maybe not as quickly. And I always tell people there's no time limit on making a decision. You know, when we were in sales for insurance, if you didn't get the sale the first time out, the managers would say to you, "Well, there's someone right behind you and they're going to just scoop it up." And so everybody was like trying to jam it down your throat. And I actually thought that if I gave you the opportunity to think about it and you trusted me and we had all this great relationship, you're going to come back to me. And that's what would happen. But decisiveness is even if you make a decision not to make a decision, you're being decisive. And as, as adults, you know, the first decision we make in the morning is, "Should I hit the snooze alarm or shouldn't I?" And that's how your day starts and we make so many tens of thousands of decisions and sometimes you just don't want to. You know, I mean, like I know when my daughter comes out, she'll say, "Okay, so where are we going for dinner?" And I might have just woken up and I'm like, "I have no idea. I haven't even thought about breakfast." But she likes to have decisions made all day long. But then she gets to the point where she'll say to me, you decide where we're going because I can't make any more decisions. So yeah, so it happens all over your life. And right, I know.

No, I'm so not a man. You're just talking out of my manhood. I've had, you know, I love music, right? I've had like 3 items in a shopping cart with Sweetwater Music for the last week and couldn't pull the button on it. I've been shopping for a car for 6 months. What?

Well, and you know, I need personal coaching, Judy.

Tell us about your rates.

But you know, the interesting thing, Jim, is where, you know, I would have people just like that for insurance, male and female, and then I would say to them, how long have you been looking for insurance? And they would say, you know, 6 months. And I said, isn't— aren't you bored with it? Because I would be bored with it. I just tell them, aren't you bored? Yeah. Why do you keep looking? And they say, well, we're just not sure. And, you know, and then when you really pull back the layers, it could be something— they don't have money or whatever it is. But, but you have to get to that point. But being decisive doesn't mean that that you have to, that everybody has to agree with your decisions. You just have to make a decision.

Right. No, and all joking aside, it's interesting because there are things, it's degrees too. You know, if I've always been good under pressure, if there's an emergency, okay, I'll make some decisions. We'll live with it. But then sometimes the things that are a little more mundane, I struggle with a lot of times. I think a lot of people can identify with that. Yeah, totally. So leaders have to understand where the priorities are. So We have passion, authenticity, courage, communication, and decisiveness. And we could talk about this all day. We're gonna, we're gonna have you back in detail with a couple of these. But let's, so we can wrap it up around, it's not a hard break, but around 30 minutes so people can eat lunch and listen to us. What are the next two? The final—

Resilient, resilience and generosity. So resilience is like what we talked about, you know, like, okay, so you're not knocked down. Do, how do you get back up? And as a leader, a lot of times what happens is you're given something that just doesn't, work and you're thinking, oh my God, it's the end of the world. And you have to be able to pick yourself back up, learn from the lessons and go forward.

You know, I'm going to paraphrase Lombardi today because he said this, but I'm going to, in honor of your new book, say, you know, the champion is not the woman who never gets knocked down, but the woman who keeps getting back up. Right? Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And the generosity thing, that's really cool. Cause at the end, actually at the end of all my talks, I sum it up this way. I could say this and walk away and feel good about taking your paycheck, but all leadership is sharing. Leadership is sharing. A leader shares. That's it. That's what it's all about. Is that what you're hitting on? Absolutely.

Absolutely. It's the giving back. It's the sharing. And to me, the number one thing, the number one way that we can be generous with is with our time. And I always talk about mentoring. And so that's a big thing for me, mentoring. Yeah.

What other things should we be sharing? Authority?

What— Well, you can share in the decision-making process. You can share in, you know, when we talk about being generous, the first thing people think about is, well, I don't have money to give. Yeah, right, right. But that's not what it is. Being generous with your time is the most important thing. Being a servant leader is very important. When I first heard the term servant leader, which was only when I moved to Dallas, I had never heard the term before, honestly, never heard it. And then all of a sudden people were saying, I'm a servant leader, I'm a servant leader. I had no clue. Don't— if you have to tell someone you're a servant leader, you're not a servant leader. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, if I tell you I'm smart, I shouldn't have to tell you, right? You know, you'll find it. But generosity is giving back. You know, you can talk about the fact that I buy you a cup of coffee or whatever. Those are all great examples of being generous. I think the number one way of being generous really is being a mentor. Oh, I couldn't agree more.

And I believe that's critically essential for leaders today. And ironically, you know, we do these polls all the time and we ask, how important is mentoring to the success of your organization, the success of the people you serve? And I've never had anyone say that it wasn't at least very important, right, if not the most important thing. Yet when I ask if they're doing it, it's usually few or none.

Right. And that's, and you know, and I always tell people if there's no official mentoring program, make an unofficial one, find someone you can mentor or ask. But the other way is, you know, that you want to lead by example. You want to inspire others. That's all being generous, you know, and serving, serving and supporting.

You are such a black belt. You know that?

Aye. Yay. I always wanted to be.

No, everything, actually everything you're saying. And you know, one of the blessings of the work that I do is because because, you know, I learned this through martial arts. Everything you're saying, especially that idea of living by example, leading by example, you know, that is the imprint of the sensei and the mentoring, you know, that's where I learned it. So it's really cool that, you know, I love it. We're singing the same song anyway, and we need to because, you know, you can't have enough voices, I don't believe.

I agree, totally agree. And I think that we have to all stick together and figure out how we can, you know, turn some of this negativity and meanness into kindness and support. And, you know, I'm not saying it's puppy dogs and rainbows and unicorns. You know what I mean? I just think that people need to be a little bit more, a little more kind.

Well, I'm looking at my "You Must Have on Your Shelf" shelf, and so let's talk about how people can get the new book and what it's all about. Because we're not time-sensitive, this is on demand, we just, you know, we'll say it because while I'm talking to Judy today, the launch is the next day. So by the time you hear this, you're either going to be ready to push the button or you get off your butt and do it. Make a decision.

Well, you know, and I just want to say one thing about this book. The book, the book is much different than my other books. It is really a powerful tool for you to have, but there's a humongous goal attached to this book because we want to be able to give back about a quarter of a million dollars to other people's foundations and charities and scholarships for women that lead, for emerging leaders, and to have the men that that champion them support us as well. So the book is available on walkingontheglassfloor.com or on Amazon, doesn't matter. We are planning to sell a million copies of this book over the next 2 years and just really get it into hands, the hands of people that need it, the ones that are leaders, the ones that are struggling to be leaders. We don't want you to come on the glass floor and then pop off. We want to keep you there. We want to bring more women there. You know, we want to get more women into those leadership positions so that they can work with the men that are truly talented and have that space. So we can open up more space. So there can be, and it doesn't have to be a 50/50 balance, but it has to be able to have, like I said before, opportunities for women to join men in the leadership realm.

Couldn't agree more. And here's the thing, people worry about displacement. There isn't any. There's plenty of room at the top. It's the middle and the bottom that are really crowded. Right.

And when we talk about abundance or we talk about scarcity, This is abundance. This is really abundance. So go out and get the books, buy a couple for your friends, and we will donate money back.

You know what, I'm going to put a stamp on that, and I'm also going to say, listen, if you want an exciting and just amazingly inspirational speaker for your next event, please call Judy. You can get to her directly. Is it still sellinginaskirt.com, or either website work?

You can do sellinginaskirt.com, you can do walkingontheglassfloor.com, you can do judy@sellinginaskirt.com for my email, and I respond to my my own email. So yeah, and you can talk to Alex too.

She'll book Judy too. Absolutely.

Yeah, Alex is my favorite person.

There you go. There you go. Well, she's one of my favorites too.

I believe it. I believe it.

Judy, let's have you back again, and especially I want to dig really deep into that idea of courage. I think we've got a lot to talk about there, and let's have you back sooner rather than later. Sound good? Would love that. Absolutely. Okay, Judy Hoberman and the new book, Walking on the Glass Floor: 7 Essential Qualities of Women Who Lead.

Thanks for listening to Walking the Walk. Please share this episode. We encourage you to download and share the program with both experienced and aspiring leaders in your network. We also encourage you to suggest guests for future episodes. Complete information at walkingthewalkpodcast.com. Jim Bouchard is in high demand presenting conducting keynotes and workshops for conference, corporate, and community audiences all over the world. To book Jim for your next event, meeting, or retreat, visit thatblackbeltguy.com or call Alexandra Armstrong at 207-751-4317.