026 Dorcas Muthoni––Young Women in Tech!

There's a lot of talk about getting more women involved in STEM careers— science, technology, engineering, and math. And today we meet a woman who launched what is now one of the leading software firms in Eastern Africa, and she did it when she was just 24 years old. Join us for this fascinating conversation today on Walking the Walk.

Welcome to Walking the Walk, the program for people who want to become better leaders and leaders who want to become better people. Start walking the walk with your host, renowned leadership speaker and author of The Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Dorcas Mathony was just 24 years old when she launched Open World, now one of the leading e-government and business software firms in Eastern Africa. And she's also the founder of Afchix, which provides mentoring and training for women in computing in Kenya and across Africa. She served on the boards of several other global tech companies, and she's committed to making a positive impact on the lives of African society, government, and enterprise through technology. Dorcas, it seems this interest in getting women involved in the tech sector is a global movement now. Can you talk a little bit about how you first got interested in technology and what challenges or barriers you might have faced in pursuing that?

Thank you, Jim. Actually, I, I got into technology, um, kind of as a second thought, not really the first thought. I wanted to get into architecture right after my high school, but it turned out the program was a little longer than I wanted at the university. So I decided to get into computer science, which was a 4-year program versus architecture, which is a 6-year program.

Oh my, yeah.

Um, and that was because I felt that, you know, later I'll still do my designs on computers. So I thought that was a good start. So that was Purely coincidental.

But those are two, those are both careers that, you know, involve sciences and engineering. And, you know, it's interesting because here in the States, a lot of people are trying to encourage more young women to get involved in these careers. But there's still, I think there's still a feeling, well, what is the feeling? Do more young women want to pursue other, I hate to say more traditional careers, but I suppose we have to, have to use those words. Or did you find a lot of encouragement along the way? Did people really want to help you get involved in these things?

Actually, I think as, you know, as everybody grows up, it's like really not common to find like engineers and to know what engineers do on a day-to-day basis. But it's very common to see the output of the work of engineers. But trying to imagine how that was created becomes a little bit hard to just, you know, abstract. And this is a big challenge for many young people, but I think it's, it's more adverse for young girls who hardly find female engineers in the family or in the friends of the family, um, unlike something like a pediatrician. So you always see a doctor because from the day you were born you met a pediatrician. So this is one of the reasons why I think we have really few young women trying to get into this career because they have no idea what it looks like. You'd be lucky if you have a relative who does that, who is in that, but it's not everybody who is lucky to have someone close as they grow up who grew up in STEM-related careers.

Is that the case for you, or did you have some women in your family that were architects or— technology folks?

I actually didn't have anyone, but I just loved math since I was a young girl, so I always knew that my—

I can't stand math.

I didn't study, I actually just wanted to pursue something in science, definitely not biological, and this is how I fell in it. Because of just my love for math and kind of physical sciences rather than biological sciences.

Right.

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit more. And did I say that right? Is it AFCHIX? And what's that all about? And how did you, how did you decide to get that started? And exactly what services do you provide through that?

So, you know, when I got my first job post-university, I spent a long time before I found a lady applicant. So when the first lady came looking for an internship, I just got her into my team. And I was now beginning to get aware that actually we were really few, even in my faculty. You know, this had never crossed my mind, and I never knew it was this adverse. I just thought when I was in college that Well, just a few women opt into computer science, but I didn't realize how, um, we were so few in this industry. So I just felt that this needed to change, and I was like, how do we get these girls? And so I thought that if we went into high schools and told them more about, um, this is what I do, you know, just kind of role model and just, you know, break the ice about, you know, what's being a software engineer, a lot more young girls would begin to get interested in what we do, and we would see more of them enrolling into, you know, computer science, you know, and more engineering, right? And so out of that, actually, with the same intern that I had just recruited, we tried to get more women to just come and tell the girls in high school what this is about, what our careers were about, and That was the path of AfriChicks. And I mean, every time I met a man or woman in the, you know, I would just try and tell them, hey, we need to talk more about this. And if it was a man, I would say, hey, do you have a lady working in your department? Can you tell them about our organization and what we are doing? And they just kind of kept on joining in and feeling I shouldn't be alone in this department anymore. And I think this is just how this network has been growing over time.

That's perfect because, you know, so much of the imprint that we talk about in the Sensei Leader is that leading by example, right? And how powerful that is, how inspiring it is when someone can look at another person who succeeded, right, and be able to say, hey, I can identify with that person, maybe I can do it too. And in fact, just recently, a workshop that I was doing, part of our aspiring leaders track, and that topic came up, you know, how— and this is what fascinates me— you started this company when you were 24 years old, right? And how— what gave you the confidence to go out and start this type of company? Because you must have just been out of university, right?

Not too Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was like maybe, um, 2 and a half years past university, if I'm not wrong. And, and again, it was just, uh, I mean, I think I just take up opportunities when they come. So I was asked to talk about open source software which we were using in, um, in the organization that I worked for at the time, and it was in this national event, um, called the Telecommunications Day. I just wanted to create awareness of the software options that people had because it was becoming so difficult to get people budgeting for software or just planning software projects. I was a fresh graduate of computer science and we needed to have a vibrant software industry in Kenya. I wrote out a presentation and shared it during this event. I was astounded by the reaction of the audience. Most of who were senior managers in the technology sector at the time, that they didn't actually know that they would be able to use open source in so many areas in the business. And when I did this presentation and I got this standing ovation from the crowd, I could have been really young, yes, but I think they also were seeing, oh, there's a solution to some of the problems that we are facing. What I did is that I just I immediately incorporated a company to provide services because it looked like so many people were having problems with getting their software projects going just because of budgetary limitations and inability to pay for customizations and many other benefits that open source would have brought to these organizations. This is just how I decided to go out and do what I was doing for more organizations.

That's amazing on so many levels though too. I'm not going to tell you what— I was up to when I was 24 years old. When we meet in Nairobi, you'll hear the rest of the story. But it's an awful story. We won't waste time with it here. But that's the challenge. And I think the question really that came up in that last workshop was, at a young age, how do you emerge as a leader? How do you show that you've got that leadership capability to lead a company, to found a company when you've got, like you said, you were presenting to senior managers. Obviously, they received your ideas very well. So you brought value to the table. But did you face any obstacles because of your age when you were starting up and trying to sell this idea?

So the strange part is that somehow I never cared that I was a woman and I never cared that I was young. This is really strange. I came to realize this much later. And I think what really fascinated these people is that, you know, tech has always been associated with a much younger population. So the issue of age wasn't a big deal, but I think the challenge that I faced is that people always want to pay less to young people. Like, they don't need too much money, you know. So they always kind of negotiate you downwards.

Yeah, right, right.

And I think this happens to women as well.

That's, that's the way it is. You look at somebody, you say, the other person doesn't need the money, I do.

So I think this is one of the earliest challenges that we got, you know. Um, they don't want to, um, they just spare too much money to us. They think we can fix a lot of these projects easily and quickly with little money. And then there was a whole misunderstanding of what, you know, open source software or this word free was in the whole, you know, software arena. But overall, we were very happy when we met people who had lots of challenges and we solved their problems.

Yeah, that's, that's it, right? It's bringing the value I guess the best way to say is if you present the value first, right, and prove your worth, then people are more responsive no matter what your age is, right?

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, you know, and it's the other interesting thing when we're talking about— and I appreciate that you say, you know, you never— it never bothered you that, you know, or you never thought it as an obstacle that you were young or that you were a woman, and yet still that seems to be an obstacle all over the world. And it's interesting because I know our partner in Nairobi, Nana Wanjoh, and she operates a number of things, but Power Woman International is one of the enterprises that we support with her. And I'm just fascinated by what she's saying and how that translates all, you know, everywhere, everywhere, because we face the same obstacles here. I see it in Europe as well, that idea that somehow women still have, I don't know if it's self-perceived or if it is traditional barriers to higher levels of leadership. Do you see that or do you just, yeah, doesn't bother you, you're just going to do it anyway, right?

Actually, you know, in the initial days when you're proposing kind of a bit of entry-level solutions, you know, you're also concerned about that. But with time, as you try to get into big business, high-tech, then you start to see that the perception is that this team, this comes from men. I mean, right, um, I'm not very sure a woman would deliver this, or I'm not sure a woman will help with this mission. You see these doubts both from men and women because, you know, the industry is so male-dominated that most people cannot relate to the women being the ones on the steering seat, you know. And, uh, this is, this is a global problem. I agree with you, which, you know, you come to learn much later as you try to pursue bigger business, bigger ambition. And definitely is a huge problem because it means that many people will start and not really go out to shine way and above, you know, very entry-level kind of, you know, projects and processes because of these limitations and having to do, you know, 5 times what a male colleague needs to do to really just make somebody give you the trust you deserve. I mean, this is a big challenge for sure.

It's interesting to hear you say that, and you know, I'm interested in how you bridge that with, with your direct reports, you know, the people that are working for you. I hate to use that term, working for you. I only use it in a very technical sense, right? I prefer as leaders to say the people we serve. But you know, it's— in a past life, I was involved in broadcast television, and I share this story quite a bit because I worked for women. Most of the directors— it's interesting— and someone who's still one of my best friends She was one of the first women television directors here in the States and just a terrific person, and she managed us very well, I have to say. To this day, she says, you know, you were my little sons, you were my little chickens. Yeah, I can understand her doing that. But do you face, you know, what challenges do you face that way, and how do you manage that, you know, getting the men to really respect you as a leader?

So, um, actually it's true, they are, they're, they're kind of two different kinds of men. Some of them who have a lot of trouble just, you know, wanting to grow in a company or in a division that's women-led, uh, and then there's another one that just, um, is not so worried and tends to admire this kind of courage. So I always try to see who I am I'm working with and who I'm trying to engage. And, you know, over time I get to know, you know, who is who. I would say that the first lot doesn't survive very long in my company because I always believe that if you're not ready to, you know, be led by a woman, then, then my company would be the wrong one for you because we would have lots of conflicts. And, and it's, it's okay if you move to a place where you feel more comfortable, but, uh, with time you always And if you break challenges and teams working on what they love, then this stops becoming a major issue and people tend to concentrate on the challenges that they're solving. And I think just encouraging people to put the customer in mind versus, you know, just thinking about, you know, social biases that don't necessarily build the workplace into a more cohesive and productive environment.

I like what you're saying with that because I think too many organizations try to force somebody into a culture where they're not comfortable. And so, you know, to understand in the onboarding process, right, that hey, if this isn't the right place for you for whatever reasons, right, you know, they may not be good reasons, but if it's not a good fit, why try to force that person through rules or policies, right? Just tell them to go on someplace else, right? Or I would say, get the hell out of here. I'm probably not as polite as you are, right?

Well, this— fine, they finally find their way out.

They'll find their way out sometimes with our help, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, I think, I think if you have women in your life that you respect, your, you know, you could be your mother, your spouse, your sisters, your family, your friends, and then this, this, this bias is not as, as adverse. But if you have this challenge, you know, just having relationships with women generally, then this can become a big issue for you in your workplace. But, you know, again, this is the society, and you just have to, you know, align yourself with people in your team who, who aren't rubidirectionists.

No, I agree with you 100%. You know, we're trying to help people understand there are substantive differences between people, those really need to be paid attention to. And then there are incidental differences. And today, especially in a world like technology, whether we're male or female, that's an incidental difference. I mean, it makes no difference whether we're a man or a woman to how we'll perform in that job. And I have to say, spirit of full disclosure, of course, and I hope you get to meet Alex when we come to Africa, that she's also— not only is she the executive director here at Sensei Leader, but she's also my wife. So I work for her, or as she likes to say it, I'm just the product. She takes care of all the business. So no, that's a good way. Tell us more about technology in general, because this is something we've had. We just had an amazing guy, Jeff Dalton, who's a leader in software development technology, and he's a kind of a pioneer in the agile, what they're calling the agile leadership movement here, which is which is kind of fascinating. But, and I know that's a global phenomenon now too, especially in software. I think that's where it all got started. But what's, what's the future of software? And, you know, tell us a little bit more about what you're doing with OpenWorld and what, what services you provide.

So for a long time, I provided, you know, a variety of software services just for customers, mainly development, customizations, and, you know, project management and various services. But we recently got into these— actually, not so recently, because this is from 2012— got into the platform space, and we started building this small business platform called Open Business, which has become our core business now. It's called, uh, which combines, you know, web and mobile app that's just helping our small businesses track their expenses, which is a big deal because a lot of small businesses tend to be very informal, which creates lots of problems for them later, perhaps when it comes to, you know, application for, you know, finance solutions for their business, and, and just awareness of exactly what they are trying to do with their business. And this has become a very, um, a sweet spot for me, especially because I want to be able to use technology to impact my society in a big way. And I think trade is one space where If we make this happen, we are not just going to create opportunities for the business owners to create wealth, but also a lot of opportunities for communities to find, you know, jobs and, you know, just put out, you know, African products out there digitally in ways that, you know, uh, um, helps our why economy is thriving. And this is something that, you know, I would like and leave the country and my country a better place. Yeah, for me to just put the small businesses out there, let them know what they are doing in their businesses, and just help them with facts to help them scale their businesses.

You know, that's an amazing thing too. And again, I'm seeing this all over the world, but particularly, you know, people have been asking me, why are you going to Kenya? I said, well, to I'm going there to do business because there's, there's so much happening there. And I've said for a long time that I believe that Kenya is kind of the, the heart of entrepreneurial spirit anyway, you know, because where you're located, uh, you know, throughout history, right, you've been the center of trade through Africa and the Arab world and India and whatnot. But right now you're seeing this explosion, right, with the small, small-time entrepreneurs. And I'd like to see that all over the world. Unfortunately, I know a lot of big companies try to throw up barriers, right, to keep keep that point of entry a little bit higher. But it seems to me Kenya is really leading the way that, you know, small entrepreneurs utilizing platforms like yours can really get a head start, right? And really, really hit the ground running.

Very important, very, very important that we actually do whatever it takes to help our enterprises grow because one of the challenges that you find in our continent and in Kenya, um, is that we have very small, very micro ages which just don't scale because they don't know exactly what's running in their business. And then these large organizations, either multinational or government-backed, and, and this is, is one of the reasons why we kind of, you know, generate less and less opportunities. Because if the business— if the private sector is not expanding, then We cannot create opportunities because our population is just growing and growing, and we need to really see what we could do to ensure that, you know, people who are starting businesses or running businesses today are understanding, you know, right in the front of their, you know, handheld devices, you know, what kind of profits they are making against what products, and, you know, any other information that could help them with, you know, business intelligence, just keep their businesses, you know, growing and knowing whether they are actually growing their initial capitals.

No, it's amazing too because, you know, what you're doing is so important because there are no borders with technology. And I was researching, I hope we get these guys on the show. There's a company that was repurposing, I think, old clothes to make, you know, really high-end designer handbags and whatnot. And now they're getting ready to ship all over the world. And people forget, you know, Amazon, one of the biggest companies in the world, I mean, Jeff Bezos started that in his mother's garage. This is right. It's the small-time entrepreneur that can really change the world, no?

Yeah, yeah. And that is actually one of the entrepreneurs that really inspires me because, you know, he wanted to create a technology platform for everybody. And in the process, you know, many people got a chance to list their products and sell them and thrive. And this is important that, you know, businesses are created to help, you know, others, other businesses thrive, you know. This is very important.

How much interference is there? And you know, this is not localized either, that is, you know, where you see, it seems to me that every time the small-time entrepreneur gets, you know, gets a little bit of a running start, then the regulators come in, right? And tell us how we're going to use the internet, what we can and we can't do, even though, you know, we've been trying. That's a challenge, isn't it?

It is. It is, and go ahead.

Oh, no, no, no, go ahead. I was— no, go. I want to hear from you. I'm not that smart.

We have been a bit lucky in Kenya specifically because many of our management teams across government and private sector are beginning to think technology first. So there's a lot more people wanting to leverage the power of technology. Technology to improve, you know, whatever processes, um, they see. And because of that, uh, we're not getting too much beating. But obviously, um, some of the regulators, uh, we wouldn't know when, may come back, you know, um, and begin to derail these spaces. But I think, uh, we have a pretty, um, active, um, multi-stakeholder forum that, you know, really reaches out to government and says, hey, we can't stop technology, so you better think of how to work with Yes.

No, not only can— I mean, I was watching the testimonies when our government was going after Facebook and the level of ignorance with the regulators. You know, they didn't even understand how the platform was working, never mind, you know, how to regulate it. And yet there was that outcry, we've got to do this, to do that. To me, it seems like the, you know, the ultimate expression of freedom all over the world is just you and I being able to do business, right, without any interference, without any barriers because we have access to the technology that you're providing. Exactly. So what's going to happen going forward, you know, for you personally and for Open World? What's the next couple of years look like?

Interesting. So one thing is that we found a lot of people from different countries, you know, including the US, downloading our app. I think the small business problem is really a global problem. So our goal is to really do the best we can to really optimize our solutions to bring really responsive solutions to the needs of entrepreneurs, especially merchants, you know, across, you know, monitoring their stock real time, monitoring their sales real time, keeping track of the expenses in a way that they really can understand their businesses and, and many things around, you know, um Basically just create this omnichannel platform, trade platform that allows them to see, you know, buy and sell online as well as offline because we must be ready to serve our customers from our storefronts and our online stores because this is how the future consumer wants It's like— so our goal is really to make sure that our platform, beginning with Kenya, serves this market very well. And out of the experiences from these, see how we can serve customers from especially the emerging markets.

Well, that's a good opportunity for us to tell people how to get in touch with you then too, and how to get, how to get these, uh, how to get access to these services.

Okay, so the best thing to do is just to go to the Google Play Store because we've begun predominantly on the Android platform and just search Open Business, which is just open and business together as one word, and download the app and just have a feel of it because there's a free trial for you to just have a feel of what the application is like. And out of that, you just connect with our support and we are happy to help every business.

Yeah, it's 14, 14 days, right? They get to try it.

They get to try until maybe they have up to 20 sales.

Oh, good.

Transactions. Yeah. Yeah.

That's even better. Okay, and we'll put that link there too.

Yeah.

Hey, thank you so much. I certainly hope we get to meet you soon in Nairobi.

Yeah, looking forward to meeting you too.

There you go. Okay, well, thank you so much for being with us and best thoughts for you going forward.

Okay, thank you, thank you very much, and have a good day.

You too, bye now.

Bye.

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