033 Bill Cattley––What can civilian leaders learn from military leaders?

What can civilian leaders learn from military leaders? Is military leadership really about command and control, or is there much more to the story? This and much more with an amazing leader who made this transition, Bill Catley, on this episode of Walking the Walk. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk.

Your host, the original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard. Jim Bouchard.

You know, I first met Bill when he was working with Cirrus Aircraft, and I saw it right away. He was a dynamic leader who truly cares about, about people, and he's dedicated to service. We grew to become friends, and he is a leader I admire and respect in every sense. Bill held leadership positions in combat arms in the U.S. Army on both active duty in the 1st Infantry Division and the 10th Mountain Division, as well as various positions in reserve and National Guard organizations. He also led aviation and ground units as well as assisted in staff coordination at many, many levels of command. And then he transitioned into an amazingly successful career in civilian business leadership with roles at companies like Cirrus, GE Aviation, Oerlikon, Meritech, and as well as his own ventures. So it's really a pleasure, Bill, to welcome you to Walking the Walk. Always learn something listening to you. And, you know, one of the things that many people without military experience assume is that the foundation of military leadership is command and control, right? And I've learned from you and so many other friends that while, you know, there are appropriate times to apply command and control mode, but that's not what military leadership is all about. You know, the most effective leaders that I've met in the military have been the most caring, compassionate people. And you're radically dedicated to serving the people who trust in your leadership. Am I missing something or is this your experience?

This is— you're nailing it. One of the things I tried to teach my kids as they started their own military careers was that, uh, clear to you as a black belt, I mean, leadership is a contact sport. I mean, you've got to get close to your people, uh, to be able to both assess their capabilities but also to allow them to see your heart and see what you're, what you're doing. The, the deeper you care about your, your people that you lead, uh, the more they're willing to go out on a limb for you. And I saw that over and over again, both in military and civilian life, where that, uh, that depth of caring was the true measure of how hard you could be on your teams. And it wasn't a tyrannical hardness, but as you've seen coaching and your sensei issues, if your folks know you care about them and know that what you're putting them through is for their best interest, then they give you, they give you more than you can imagine.

And, you know, obviously that's true because there's been millions of dollars spent studying that. And I just heard about another study that was commissioned. I don't want to name the college because I'll probably say the wrong name, but about $500,000 dedicated to find out if people work harder if you care about them as a leader, right? I mean, it's crazy. You know, before we dive off and all that too, you mentioned your family and your kids that are involved in the military as well. I mean, if anybody saw your social media posts, they'd know, geez, you probably make up half the attendance at an Army football game, huh, you and your family?

Oh, I tell you what, that's been an amazing piece of history. And it's only, it's really a gift that, uh, I look at the kids have given me because there's no legacy getting into the military. It's always a one-on-one, you know, you've got to qualify, you got to get in there yourself. So, uh, yeah, I credit the kids getting in the military and getting through West Point, uh, to my wife. I mean, she was the, the one comment that came out of them going to Beast Barracks at West Point was, uh, you know, they'd note back on a card that said, well, mom and dad, this is no tougher than our family vacations. So, you know, they're They're well prepared by my wife.

Well, you know, it's interesting because that's one of the issues that comes up a lot when we workshop. You know, this idea— I don't believe too many people think that leaders are born anymore. You know, they're made, or as we like to talk about, transformed, right, by whatever conditions and circumstances you present. But, you know, if someone took a look at your family, they'd probably use you as a case for that born leader philosophy. And, you know, again, with the advantage of knowing you and your family a little bit, You know, I would say, and this is what I'd like to hear from you one way or the other, you know, you gave them, right? You gave them the tools they needed to emerge as leaders. Now, whether they do or not, you know, that's up to them, right? But you certainly provided that background, wouldn't you say? And how much credit do you deserve and how much credit do the kids deserve to really that they embraced what you offered them?

I think it has to be like a 10-90 mix, to tell you the honest truth. You know, having You know, my dad was a colonel in the reserves, engineer. He was on active duty only for about 3 years, but he, he provided an amazing stability as a, as an engineer in the South Shore. You know, I watched, not always, you know, fondly, but I watched him build a reputation in the South Shore, both in the military and in his civilian work, of impeccable integrity. And impeccable competence at what he did. And so those two things kind of stood out as a way of leading. Uh, he wasn't what I considered, as I mentioned at the start of the, uh, conversation, a contact leader. He was more aloof, but, uh, his competence was beyond question, and his integrity— I heard from multiple people that didn't know even who I was when they, you know, mentioned Robert Catley's name. Uh, so that was kind of a legacy that was passed down generations before I, you know, to me, and then I tried to do the best I could edifying my father and the military with my career, you know, to my kids. So most of this stuff I think is how, what you model, you know, that's what they're catching and that's what your folks that report to you or that are around you in business, they catch more than what you teach. So I'm a believer in that. And I mean, there's a bit of You know, you're looking back on yourself and there's a humility as I looked at some of your guests that were on here already that said, geez, I hope I can say anything that's worthy of emulation. But the same thing, your kids have a way of humbling you. Your history has a way of humbling you. So as you get to this point, you know, you said the club for the old guys, you know, I really am kind of much more of the school that leaders are, are made, uh, because people that stand up and, and lead, that if you looked into their history prior to that moment that they decided that they were going to make a difference, uh, there would be no indication that there was anything there. I mean, that story repeated over and over again through our U.S. history and through the biographies you've probably read yourself. So I'm a much more, uh, firm believer that as you look into people's capabilities and you see that the desire to take responsibility, the desire to make a difference, both in people and in the situation, those are my biggest markers as to what leaders look like. I've seen people, probably the best school I ever went to in military or anywhere has been Ranger School. And that 10 weeks of just getting my, you know, the snot kicked out of me was an amazing, humbling episode. And you come out looking like a Dachau war prisoner, but you also get sifted in ways that you just can't do in civilian life. And you can't do it really a lot of times in combat. Ranger School, they make you worse than that, except they're not shooting tracers at you.

Wow. Yeah.

You see classmates that, um, quite honestly were just stellar at school that then just fold up when, you know, it's cold, tired, and hungry. And, uh, you see other folks that were just nobody. I mean, they were just kind of coasting through school and boy, when you needed them for to lean on, you know, during this difficult time. They were there, both with attitude, sense of humor, with throwing in more than they could. You know, anytime you volunteered to do anything at Ranger School, it was costing you calories. And I was in the wintertime, and, you know, I lost— I was only about 168 pounds. I came out at 148. So, you know, you really thought it—

You could sell that as a diet plan. That'd be great.

Oh boy, I'll tell you what, I, you know, and I— here's my— I watched my son come— my oldest son came out of it at one of the breaks, and my wife and I were there to see him, and I choked up. I'll tell you what, it was a tough thing.

That's really one of the things that we see as a huge challenge in civilian leadership these days, especially working with aspiring and emerging leaders. By and large, studies show that— and I hate to pick on the younger people, but it is skewing that way— that they're very uncomfortable with uncertainty. Obviously, society, we have a huge problem with the idea of courage right now. And my contention is that's difficult to train without at least some semblance of exposure to uncertainty and to actual danger, risk, and however that takes shape in the business world. But still, so many people in civilian business leadership are hesitant. Now, you've been in both worlds. How do you provide those challenges to people short of sending them off to Ranger School, which you just planted the seed because Maybe that's something we can partner on. We can create a— we have the facilities from the old Sears school up here. We can put people out in the woods and give them a tough time. We call it camping here in Maine. So how do you provide those challenges without handing over the keys to a predictable collision, I guess? Because that's people's fear, right? If I give people a chance to expose themselves to some of this risk, well, I might go down with them, right?

Well, that's the risk. I think that the thing about a leader that really ignites a team is once your team believes that they have— that you have their back when it comes to experimenting with, you know, taking responsibility, pushing down to do something. Like, most of my teams, I try to get in there quickly and say, guys, we got to get in motion. You know, you're usually not taking over in a time when things are going rosy and you just need to keep the wheels on the wagon. This is like, okay, we've got to set some big aggressive goals. We've got to get in motion. And quite honestly, you're going to make some mistakes. And I expect that. I just don't want you to fail the same way twice. Let's get in motion. That's the first thing I told Mark Bennett, the team that I took over with Cirrus. You know, we, I hit Cirrus at the lowest point in their history. The year before they had built 85 aircraft and they were sitting on the ramp up there. And they fire sale them. So the only thing I got into this team, I'd never sold an airplane in my life. They were all looking at me, they're all veterans and they're like, I don't know what he's going to do for us. You know, later, you know, 3 years later they told me that, okay, we understood what you did when you got there. But my thing was, you got to get in motion, guys. The company is counting on us saving them. If it didn't work before, let's not do it again. Let's do it, do something else. But I will cover your backs for doing almost anything. And I just wanted the foot on the accelerator. And for them not to be driving with their foot on the brake, foot on the accelerator, because you see that. I think that's what you mentioned with the youth today, is they're afraid of making a mistake, but they know they have to move. And it's a very uncomfortable feeling. It's uncomfortable to watch. You know, you're in your stomach, you're going, dude, just do something, you know, just do something.

Yeah.

And so that's, that's the thing that I think a great leader is able to do, is unleash that team.

But they, they've been so, uh, trained to be failure adverse, haven't they? I mean, especially, you know, we're seeing that. That's why it's interesting, because you yourself and your family, you know, with that, with that incredible experience with West Point— I've, you know, met people from the other academies too. I mean, you know, one of my dreams that I failed in was to try to get in the Coast Guard Academy. And part of the appeal to that was, you know, that, that it's a whole different type of education, isn't it? And is— well, I guess I don't mind pooping on, uh, public education these days. But, you know, the universities, we hear over and over from business leaders that the universities are just not preparing people for the work environment. They're teaching to the test, and like I said, making people failure-adverse. You know, they're just damn scared to fail in anything. Are you seeing the same thing? If so, how do you overcome it?

Yeah, overcoming it is difficult because it is deep-seated. But it comes from sometimes the first time they've been given the permission to fail is when they meet me. Or, you know, in West Point, Jim Collins wrote a great essay that you can look up on West Point that talked about his experience. And he was a visiting lecturer for 2 years at the academy. And what was fascinating to me, I read it and I couldn't believe it until he got into a little more. He says, you know, of all the colleges I lecture at all around, and he's the author of, you know, Good to Great, Built to Last, these books. But he said, uh, they're the happiest college students I see. And I'll tell you what, if you said that to anybody at West Point when they're there, they'd be like stunned. Like, are you talking to me? I mean, I'm the guy that I'm getting no sleep. I'm failing classes. What are you talking about? Yeah. But he said the, uh, the power of, you know, the, the shared mission there, everything was very clear why people were there, what they were doing, what was going on. He said that, uh, and that everybody fails, everybody fails something there and Even though it's, you know, a class rank and there's competitiveness there, everybody's helping each other get through that thing. And it's, you know, it's something he said was unique to the academies. And of course he was at West Point, so he was applying it to West Point. But that's, uh, that's something that you see, uh, in great companies, civilian or military. I think people get into it and they haven't seen it or haven't been involved with it, and it's a— it's addicting. It's something that can keep people engaged, you know, if the right leadership's there. Uh, I, I've got to do kind of a shout out to a classmate and friend, George Belsky, just recently retired from the, uh, ATF as, as one of their executives. But, uh, we had a discourse just recently about servant leadership, and there's— he goes, uh, it was something Pat— I think Patton said, he goes, uh, you know, leadership is for the benefit of the lead. It's not for you to practice your idiosyncrasies. Exactly. Right? So he's pretty good about saying that stuff. But the servant leadership is an attitude. That's why you talked about whether they're born or made. I really think it's something about made, you know, because you have to want to pursue this leadership. You have to want to pursue the responsibility of leading people And because you're gonna make impact of them. We had a chance when I became promoted into leadership in Pfizer to sit with the chairman of the board, Bill Steere, at the time. And we're sitting around this giant boardroom up on 42nd Street, New York. And he sits back, he's drinking a Coke, and he's going, "You will be the conversation of the 15 to 20 people you're leading at the family dining room table every day." Right? When you get home, you either made them have a great day or, you know, they're going to be complaining to their wives about you. He said that stuck with me, uh, and I, it's just one of those things, Jim, that I tell other people. I said every time you send an email, every time you send a conversation out there, you are going to be a conversation, good or bad, about family, right? And, uh, right, you know, if you can't imbue that, and, you know, why would you be, uh, intentionally a jerk? You may need to be hard, you may need to be even unpleasant or deliver unpleasant news, but you can do it respectfully. You can do it preserving the person.

So people don't realize that there's a strong connection. One of our strategies that we're always emphasizing is tough yet compassionate. And we were challenged on that several times. People said, we shouldn't— compassion be first? And I said, no, no, not, not really, not when you think about it, because, right, there's times when the toughness has to come first. And that's what people get backwards. And if I'm hearing you right, it seems like there's an undercurrent to what you're saying. There's a huge difference between being supportive and coddling, right? I think that's a problem that we have in our society right now is too many people are coddled more than supported, right?

Yeah. You've probably heard the term, what we're missing, and you described it well, Jim, is that free-range kids. Oh yeah. When you get kicked out of the house and said, don't come back. Or you better be home when the street lights come on or whatever. They didn't know where you were, you know, but it didn't matter. You figured it out. But those— that ability to test limits, to test yourself, to get on a bicycle and go, you know, as far as you could go and, you know, as far as you were comfortable, uh, those things are not available to kids for the most part unless you've got some free-range parents. You know, we had— we came out to Michigan, 3— we had 4 acres here. My wife was classic at kicking the kids out of the house Yeah, rain, snow, sleet, and good weather.

My mom would throw a bar of soap out when the thunderstorms are coming, right?

Put them up in all the, you know, snow clothes, send them out to the trampoline, and they would be out trampoline. But, uh, you know, that, that is where they learn to take risks. They, they unsupervised communications with their peers, those things, you know. You've got play dates now, and you've got, uh, parents that are, you know, they're way beyond hover parents now.

They are, you know, they are right there all the way to into the, in their 20s and 30s now.

Yeah. And you wonder why you can't get kids off the couch, you know?

So it's, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Or they end up, like I said, in, in, uh, in the workforce. And then we've got, then we've got a lot of, we've got a lot of work to do to correct that, which is, I mean, it's, I hate to say it, but it's good for my business.

Good for business. You know, um, right. As much as I, you know, I had a great growing up, you know, the small town in Southern Massachusetts, you know, you really literally could just walk out and go anywhere. The only limit I had was don't go across Route 6, you know, from about 7 years on. But, you know, for some of the other stuff though, the things that you make a living out of, I didn't read, you know, How to Win Friends and Influence People until I was like 30 years old. And I'm like, the book was in my attic. You know, my grandfather had these books, but if nobody brings you the book, you might as well be illiterate, right? Nobody urges you to do it. So, there's a lot of this, the relationship leadership, the knowing yourself and the EQ that we bring into our business that I just got in my family. It just wasn't there.

No, it's interesting that you say that because, and you quote Patton and he's a huge hero of mine and so many people misunderstand him, especially if their only exposure to him is the movie. People fail to understand when you read his own words. Of course, you have to measure that. It's his opinion, but also the words of people that, especially the people who served under him. It's interesting, right? I think he was more of a thorn in the side to his superiors, right? Especially the politicians. But he had a tremendous, not for everybody, none of us are going to be perfect for everybody, but he seemed to have a tremendous amount of loyalty, trust, and respect from the people that he served. You know, under. And you know, because I'm always saying that, right? The people— as leaders, we're talking about the people we serve.

Yeah.

You know, I hate to say employee or people who work for me unless I'm being very technical, right? And he seemed to have a really deep connection to those people. And part of the reason I'm bringing this up— and again, there's another undercurrent— because when you're saying, you know, you're gonna support people, you want them to fail, um, and I'm cheating because I know you a little bit, But this is something civilian leadership can learn, I think, from military leadership. Underneath that, there's a presumption of training and preparation, isn't there? And that's an ongoing process. And of course, that's probably what Patton, I think, was— how he was so effective was his emphasis there, right?

The training. They call them blood and guts in the movies, which misses— it's classic Hollywood. They miss the undertones. But I went through Commandant General Staff College, and one of the things that just shook me, and I've hung on to this for a while, was a, a, a study of the generals in World War II and the, uh, casualty rates of the units that they were in. So of course, that's Patton. Everyone, your normal assessment would have been, well, that would have been the highest casualty rates, and it wasn't. It was in Bradley. And Omar Bradley, the, the soldier's general by his own, you know, whatever his reputation was, had the highest casualty rates. And, and Patton, it wasn't because he was in the, the, the any worse. I mean, Patton had the, the, the lead in a lot of the, uh, you know, uh, war through Europe. But what the difference was, as they came outta this study, was in Bradley's case, it was a zero tolerance policy. If any of his people failed, you know, any leadership failed, they were fired immediately, replaced on the spot, on the move. Patton didn't do that. He, he, he fired people that needed to be fired. But if you failed and you were doing something, He goes, I'm not going to take you out. You're doing something. It was kind of like the, you know, the Civil War with Grant when he got in there. I'm not going to fire him. He fights, you know?

So yeah, yeah.

And built a, a reputation, built an environment of learning and learning from your mistakes. And you fast forward into, you know, one of the things Petraeus was very famous for is he actually got shot in civilian life. I mean, he got shot, not civilian life. He got shot on a training exercise. Captain was running a range and an accidental discharge on the range shot, uh, Petraeus. Now that would have been considered in the peacetime Army, uh, a career-ending move, right? You shot your commanding general.

It's probably not good for advancement, right?

It was not— you're not good. But Petraeus knew that it wasn't, you know, it was a total accident. And he, he saved this, uh, captain's career. And actually the guy became a brigade commander for him under in Iraq. And he goes, boy, I'm glad I saved this guy because he's doing a phenomenal job for us over here.

Right.

So that kind of, you know, being willing to take a mistake, not making it fatal, you know, building the learning experience for it. Because when do you actually learn? You, you really don't learn that much from success. You learn from having your face, you know, bashed into the dirt, right? I mean, you miss a block or you do something, you know, in civilian life and these, uh, in our employment It's so difficult to come up with that toughness, right? So, if you get something, say, "Man, that didn't work out very well. What did we learn from that? Let's not do that again." You just made that guy more valuable. Why would you fire him? If he shares your values and he shares what you're doing in the company, you got to make mistakes survivable.

Right. That's the key. And there's a vast difference between foolish mistakes or You know, mistakes that are just, you know, cause— you make a mistake because you, you're willfully ignorant, right? Or you're just, you're just being irresponsible. That's different than those. And you reminded me of this— God, the story— when I was boxing, my trainer Dave, he was such a cool guy. He was, he was like a Yoda, you know? And he'd come up with these things, and he was talking— he'd always say this when we were losing something, you know? And he'd say, yeah, don't worry about it, you always learn more when you lose. And then he'd take this, you know, dramatic pause and he'd say, "Yeah, but some days you just don't feel like learning anything, right?" Just put him down with a punch.

Let's make it a short fight.

Yeah, yeah. So, it goes along with that. Of course, we want to win. We want to succeed. We want to do all those things. But I agree with you 100%. I think the greater lessons come from failures, from losing, from mistakes, as long as we're willing actively. And that's another imprint. You know, I've always studied the military leadership manuals and it's so cool. I mean, you talk about that. Right? That this is— it's not— and what was it? I was just at a conference in Las Vegas and one of the speakers was— is it Robert O'Neill who shot Osama bin Laden?

Or is it— O'Neill? The SEAL?

Yeah. And he was talking about the SEAL training that way, you know, that they purposely put you in situations that you make mistakes. And he explained it really nicely. And this is, I think, something again that people misunderstand about this concept of the military breaking people down, so to speak. And I keep arguing in defense. I said, no, no, no, that's not what they're doing. They're putting you in situations where you're going to make mistakes, not to humiliate you, but to see how you react, right? And to see how you're going to recover from that mistake and help you develop that ability. Is it, again, am I way off or is that—

No, you're dead on. And one of the things that is so important in that environment and that culture is to have somebody own the mistake.

Exactly, right? Yeah. The difference between, yeah, it's me, or, or, oh, it wasn't my fault.

Oh, you know, the gun. And, and, uh, if you wanna do that, you run for Congress, right? No, you see that in Congress, but you see it in our, in our youth and, and across generations. It's not a, it's not a generational thing. It's, it's a, it's a character thing.

Yeah.

But, uh, that's what they're trying to do is make sure that you have a commitment to the team so great that you own that mistake.

Mm-hmm.

And you are looking to fix it. And you know, that, that, that's more important. Than the mistake itself, as you just said, is your willingness to own it. What I found in coaching teams is if I can't get my teams to see the problems that I'm seeing, I'm a mess. I'm like, once they can identify the problem, agree with the problem, and are working on it, I sleep like a baby. I'm like, yeah, you got it, go for it. Let me help. What do you want me— need from me? But when they're when they're pushing off, they're trying to do something else. They're showing me, trying to misdirect me. You've been in leadership for that long. You're like, no, that's the problem. I can see the problem. You can't tell me it's something over here. It's really this. So yeah.

And that's the biggest, I'll tell you, well, I shouldn't say the biggest, but one of the biggest arguments I have with people in civilian leadership these days is that tendency to point the finger. And believe me, I understand it. I'm not being wholly discompassionate about it. There are, you know, people are put in certain situations. We've been studying the Wells Fargo fiasco and they're on the hot seat again. And you know, we can see this. I said, well, you know, I've seen people do some horrendous things there and I understand why they did. It doesn't make it right. Certainly so-called leadership put them in the positions where any of us might have made those same decisions, right? As I'm sitting, I'm looking at the book about the Stanford Prison Experiments, right? And all that.

Oh, yeah, right, right.

You know, it just came up in a workshop the other day. Somebody challenged me on that point and they said, well, you know, would you do something rotten? I said, listen, the biggest thing that keeps me from doing rotten things is the realization that I'm fully capable of doing them.

You know, the veneer of— that's what's really come at this age. And it came earlier too, but sort sort of in our faith walk, when you're talking about walking the walk, you know, you've got many areas of your life that walking the walk is important to you. But the realization that there is not that much, you know, between me and a serial killer, right? I mean, just, it's just a, it's a situation, or it's the choices that I make that say, I'm not going to go there. I love people, you know, this whole concept that says, oh, I just have to be me. Well, suppose you're a real jerk, you know, you should probably be somebody else, right? About it for years is that I'm not the man that my wife thinks I am, but I desperately want to be. And that's what is walking the walk as a husband and walking the, you know, walking the walk as a, as a father. I've transitioned now, right? I had to walk the walk for a long time while they were, you know, pre-18, 19, 20. Now they're graduates, commissioned officers. And I sent you a picture. The second picture there was a thing that started when my son-in-law graduated West Point with my daughter and the Wolfpack. And so I've taken— yeah, I bought some pipes from Eastern Europe. They're carved with a wolf head on it. We took Kipling's, you know, the strength of the pack is the wolf, right? And built a whole culture around that. And I have purposely tried to break down some walls in some ways, knowing that there's others that are going to stay there as my position as father, but I said, you are now joining me on the wall, okay? Uh, it's, uh, it's your job to hold me accountable as well. It's not just one way as it was as we were growing up, okay? So if you see me flaking out, if you see me not upholding what I've told you for my entire life, it was important, and the code of conduct as a man and a Christian, then you— I expect you all to pull me up short. I expect you to be my accountability partners. And I think that's critical to servant leadership is knowing that you have to be responsible to your followers, that you're holding the banner and that you can't just do, do as I, you know, the whole thing, you can't do as I say, not as I do kind of thing. That just doesn't work. They see the inconsistencies and they know them and you lose credibility.

No, absolutely. And I love what you're saying. I mean, I don't, I don't want to be the person 10 or 20 years from now. I don't want to be the person I am today. How dull would that be? Right. And I know you and I are kind of, I think, in a way, young thinking that way, that we always want to learn and grow. But, you know, my idols, Ben Franklin was still learning on his deathbed, you know, and it's amazing. Hey, listen, we've got to have you back on the show again. I know you said you didn't feel worthy listening to the other kids. Listen, you're one of the best guests we've ever had. This was terrific. And people are going to take a lot of good lessons away. And we need to share more of you. We need you more involved in the movement.

Well, happy to, and always great catching up with you. The time with you and Alex in the sunshine in Maine was a high point in my life. I tell you what, it was a lot of fun. Great.

Well, you hang on. We're going to visit after the show. We're just trying to keep it lunch-friendly for folks. And hey, tune in, keep tuning in. Make sure you come to thesensileader.com. That's all you need to do to become part of the Sensei Leader movement. There's a free membership area. That's all you need to do is subscribe there. You'll instantly get access to the ebook edition of The Sensei Leader and tons and tons of other benefits. And we are going to— the schedule is winding down a little bit for the year end here. Well, I shouldn't say that, but we're carving out spaces for the live workshops and things like that. So if you want access to those, just get on thesenseileader.com. And Bill, we'll have you back again soon. And we've got a couple of other cool guests lined up for the next couple of weeks. So make sure you keep tuning in. Thanks for being with us. And Bill, again, thank you.

Thank you. All right.

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