035 Dov Baron - Purpose: One Red Thread

Dov Baron is a longtime friend and one of the world's most respected authorities on leadership today. His newest book is One Red Thread. It's all about purpose. And that's what we're talking about today on Walking the Walk. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk. Your host, the original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard. I love that, the original. That's kind of a cool thing to say about myself. So not the only, but maybe the original. We'd use up the entire show talking about Dov Baron's resume, and I'm sure we'll touch on highlights as we go along. But his newest book is really fascinating. It's called One Red Thread, and the focus is on purpose, specifically connecting with your purpose as an individual and as an organization. So let's jump right into it. Dov, why is this so important? Why is purpose so important?

I don't know.

You have to read the book, right?

Read the damn book, man.

Nice, nice.

Purpose, you know, it's a fascinating subject because we know millennials want to do meaningful work. That's number one, right? That we, you know, people talk about millennials are not loyal, we can't find good people. But one of the things that keeps millennials loyal is meaningful work. It's right at the top of their list of the things that are most important to them in work. And so what is meaningful work? Well, part of— one of the big parts of what meaningful work is, is to work in purposeful work, meaning it has a purpose. So you as the individual, as the leader, have to know your purpose. You also have to know the purpose of your organization so that the people you're taking on can feel connected to that. You see, we are meaning-driven human beings. We look at— meaning-driven beings, humans. We want to find meaning in things. If we don't have our own purpose, we don't find our own meaning, we want to attach to another one. That's how we get tribes. That's how we get the kinds of things that cause also problems that can cause great solutions. So having a purpose that is caring and loving and supportive can be very It can be great glue for bringing people together. That's one of the main reasons is it builds enormous loyalty.

I know you speak to everybody, not just millennials, but it's interesting because you brought the topic up and a lot of people do these days. And geez, you know, it's interesting. Every generation goes through that same iteration, isn't it? That somehow the generation that's coming up is inadequate in some ways. So let's talk about that because I know what you're talking about crosses all generations. Doesn't matter. And I found it, right? Wouldn't we agree? I think most people, most people, if they allow themselves, do, you know, do place a great deal of emphasis on the meaning. But it hasn't always been encouraged. I mean, you know, tying into a sense of purpose hasn't always been— it used to be just show up for work and do your job because we're paying you, right? But I don't know if that's enough for most of us, is it?

But I think you've made a great point there. The distinction is power. See, the power differential has changed. There was a time when I was the employer, I had the money, I had the power, you come to work for me, and you shut up and get on with it. Now, let's all remember that Jim and I are over 30. So we can remember at least the halo of the hippies. And the halo of the hippies was, I'm never going to work for the man. Well, guess what? The hippies are now the man.

That's right.

They are now the man. And they didn't intend to, but they also didn't have the freedom. They want to say, well, I don't want to work for the man, but how the hell am I going to pay the rent?

It's inevitable. Really?

I mean, yeah. Well, it's not now. And this is what's wonderful. This is why it is different for millennials is because millennials go, oh, Okay, I don't want to work for the man. With $20 in my pocket, I can build a website and I can start my own thing.

I see.

And that's the distinction. The power has shifted because of the internet that they have the freedom to say no. So now you're right, meaning was always important. It was important in the '60s. We all talked about it. But now meaning has come back to the surface because now I actually have the power to say, I am not having anything to do with that. I don't want to be part of that. And so I'm going to go do my own thing. And the distinction is, you're absolutely right, millennials are doing it, but so are Gen Xers and so are baby boomers. And many people who had worked for a company for 20 years, when the recession came, realized, oh, I can't trust the big company, I better watch my own back. So yes, meaning has come forward, purpose has come forward strongly in millennials, but it was always there in all of us.

Funny, funny as you were talking.

So having a meaning, purpose-driven company changes everything.

You were talking about, excuse me, the hippies and whatnot, and my lava light just switched on. It's on a timer.

Anyway, you didn't drop some acid as that came on, right?

Not today. No, not today.

No, because I was, you know, if that's the case, we're going to stay on longer because I'm actually looking forward to this experience.

Well, you just legalized pot up in Canada. So when I visit, we'll have to explore some of the old days.

It's been legalized. It's been legalized across the nation. It was decriminalized in British Columbia about 3 years ago. There's the world's best pot is right here in Vancouver. I don't smoke pot. I haven't done since I was in my—

I was going to say carefully, you might be violating a statute of limitations that isn't expired.

I don't do it because if I do, I'll just I get high coughing, so there's no point in that. There you go.

There you go. Anyway, and since that's a part of my life I've left long in the past, we'll leave it there, huh?

Okay.

Now, getting back to this idea of purpose, it's interesting because I know you run up against this, and I do all the time, and it's an interesting parallel to my life as a martial artist, and I know you've had experience there too, so you might identify. In martial arts, there's two big categories, the soft arts and the hard arts, and the hard arts, for those who you don't know what I'm talking about, think about karate or boxing or something where you're really talking about an external expression, right? A burst of power, very tangible. You can see it, you can feel it. Internal, really in a physics sense, applies more leverage, right? Deflection, things like that. Flexibility. So at any rate, in martial arts, remember I had a master one time and I asked him, I studied mostly at that time in Kenpo, which was considered a blended. Hard, soft art. But when I asked him, I said, you know, I was a little confused at first. What kind of art do we study? Is it hard or soft? He said, hard, always hard. You know, big macho guy. And I realized, well, he wasn't right, and that the power really was in the soft arts. And it's the same thing, right, in what we're talking about in leadership, in the sense of purpose. So I get, you know, I get a hair across it when people start to diminish the power of something like purpose by saying, oh yeah, the soft skills. Soft skills, but I mean, how essential? What can you do without it? Let's dive into that a little more. I mean, what, what can people possibly freaking accomplish without really identifying and understanding, connecting with that sense of purpose?

You know, it's a great question because at the end of my podcast, one of the things I say is, is if you're losing your people, come talk to us because we provide the concrete soft skills. And people say that's a weird thing to say, but concrete is what you pour into into the foundation of every building, it's liquid, it's soft, and it becomes the foundation of everything. And that is my philosophy around the quote soft skills. And you and I know we very much agree on this is that, you know, the tactical, the strategic, all those things are wonderful and great, enjoy them, it's fabulous. That's what we're living in, yeah. Yeah, but if you don't know how to work with your people, if you don't know how to get the best out of your people, unless you are running 1000 machines, it doesn't work. So it's your people skills. It's knowing how to tap into the power of that individual, because we've all had the experience of working with somebody and going, God, this person's useless. And then finding that same person in a different position and going, oh my God, they're a megastar.

Exactly.

So how is that possible? Because it— because they were useless in the context of a particular hard skill. But when you find out who they are, what drives them, and that's what purpose is about. When you find out the primary driver of that human being, what it is that at their core that gets them out of bed in the morning, they will come and do the hard things for you because they're driven by something more powerful than a paycheck. And that is what changes absolutely everything.

Yeah, that shouldn't be left to, you know, somebody 9 levels down the chain in the HR department. I feel that It's our responsibility as leaders, at least in the circle that's closest to us, right, to really connect with people and understand it. But let's go to an extreme for a second. Let's say I'm totally lost as an individual first. Then, we're going to roll this back to an organization. But as an individual, I'm totally lost. Just having, you know, and I think we all have moments like this in our life. I just don't know what my purpose is right now. So how will you guide them to identify it?

It's a great question because you're right, we, you know, we do helping individuals, leaders, organizations, and companies find their purpose. But we always start with the individual. So, and very often people think they know their purpose, but they don't. So where— let's start here. Let's start with where the misdirect is. The misdirect is often in passion. People think that their purpose is their passion. Your passion and your purpose are vastly different things. So let me just explain it to you simply. If you are you're a heterosexual male and I ask you what you are passionate about in your teens, I'm pretty sure that the answer will be naked women. Right. And so if that's the case and your passion is your purpose, therefore it should be your career, then why aren't you in the job of gynecology? And the answer is because it was a passion and it's transitory. Right. So your passion and your purpose are different. Your passion is the vehicle that transports your purpose. That's all it is. When the vehicle runs out, you have to move your purpose to another vehicle. So that's why very many entrepreneurs feel like, oh, you know, I'm all over the place. But when I do the work with them, they go, oh, I've always been on target with my purpose. Yeah, you've just changed vehicles. And sometimes you've abandoned the vehicle too fast, and sometimes, you know, whatever it is. But It's— so there's a distinction between passion and purpose. Passion is transitory, purpose is not. The next thing to do, understand about, about purpose, and again, as you said, this is in One Red Thread, in my book One Red Thread, which helps you to find your own purpose. And I've just written another book that goes with it, which is called Purpose's Missing Piece, which is actually about putting purpose into your organization as well. So you can find that, they're both on Amazon. However, one of the other places where people get misdirected is we think that we're going to find our purpose in our joy. So we go, you know, I'm just— I'm so in the flow with this and this is my joy. And so this must be my purpose. No, actually, that's another misdirect. So people say, well, where do I look? You actually don't look at your joy. You look at your pain. If you want to find your purpose, it's actually in your pain. The reason that Jim Bouchard is in leadership is because the particular kind of leadership he delivers is the kind of leadership he needed. It's his pain. It's what was happening to him in his childhood and his young life. And that has catalyzed that action that is now manifesting into a career. So our purpose is actually embedded in our pain, not in our pleasure.

You know, I'm not going to say that this is spooky or mystical because I know that you have science embedded behind what you just said. We've known each other for quite a long time, but you just hit something that went all the way in and I hadn't thought of it that way. And you're exactly right. I hadn't thought of it exactly that way. That everything that I'm doing, it draws from the darkest places in my life, darkest experiences in my life. That, you know, I had to learn how to transform myself and grow as a person, and that led to this journey, right? So, you know, that's incredibly insightful, and people pay attention to that, right? But the other thing is—

Yeah, but thinking about it—

Go ahead.

Just thinking about it at a deeper level is I believe, maybe I'm crazy, but I believe that human beings are basically good. And when we find something good, we want to share it. Now, the bad part of that, because everything has a double-edged sword, the bad part of that is if we find something that we get hooked into that's not good, we still want to share it. So, you know, you want to get out there and share your crack with your friends, you know, or your Kool-Aid with your buddies, or whatever it is. But when we genuinely find something good, we want to share that, particularly if it came out of our darkness. So when you've come out of that dark place and you go, you know, I made it back, there's a part of you that goes shit. How many people do I know who have gone through or are going through something like that?

How many kids are out there? I don't want them to go through it.

And that's the point. And I don't want them to go through it. So how can I ease that pain? That's where your purpose is embedded. So your purpose is always embedded in the pain. So how can I alleviate the pain of others so they don't have to go through my pain? So that is what— that is where your purpose is always going to be. And most people don't want to look at that dark place. They go, well, that was the past. Well, here's the news. Your past is leaking all over your present and is about to pollute your future until you examine it and turn it into purpose.

Yeah, that idea of hard fixed past is a really strange phenomenon because if it were truly something that you could leave behind, it wouldn't occupy your thoughts here and now. In the present. And I'm not trying to, again, I'm not trying to be mysterious about that, but that, you know, that's just a cold psychological fact. Now you hit something very interesting too, and ironically what the ancient masters in Asia were talking about, right?

Of course.

But at any rate, well, they were very insightful people. They much more grounded than I think we give credit for these days. You know, people glom on to these, for lack of a better term, these new age ideas and philosophies. And they're trying to conflate them, trying to squeeze them into places where they weren't intended to. One of my masters used to say this. He said, these guys weren't trying to be spooky. They were just trying to understand life. And they happened to write in poetry because that was the vehicle of the time. And so now we take that, we turn it into t-shirt slogans and bumper stickers. Right. But speaking of which, you talked about, you know, this idea of people being hung on joy. And I know there's a huge movement in psychology today. That's really questioning, especially here in the West, our fixation on happiness, huh? That we kill each other— we kill each other— that was a Freudian slip— we kill ourselves and each other in pursuit of this ideal of happiness. And what they're saying now is that's probably a dangerous fixation, right? And that seems to be parallel to what you're saying there.

Yeah, it's a very good point. I think that, um, First of all, if I come and tickle you, you'll be happy. If I stop tickling you, you'll stop being happy. So happiness, like passion, is transitory, right? Satisfied.

We're slipping back to China again. Yes, right, right.

It's transitory, right? It's in Greek mythology, Greek philosophy. It's in Chinese philosophy. It's, you know, it's across the board. You know, that was a lot of those things from my studies. So these are transitory things. And so if I'm always looking to be happy— so here's the thing to just help everybody understand this. When you look at that, that, that person on the, in, on the corner street with a needle in their arm, or they're stumbling down the street because they're drunk or whatever it is, you might judge them and say, you know, oh, what a, you know, waste of humanity, or blah, blah, blah. But here's the first thing you need to know about human beings. This is not about those people on the corner, and it's not about you. It's about us, you know, the multiple billions of us on the planet. Human beings are addicts. So just take that in for a moment. Every human being is an addict, every single one of them. Some of them are addicted to cocaine or heroin or alcohol or cigarettes or coffee. Some of them are addicted to church. Some of them are addicted to looking good. Some of them are addicted Some of them are in addictive relationships. Some of them are addicted to sex. So there's a myriad— some of them addicted to work. So there's a myriad of addictions. And the spectrum of socially acceptable is what changes it, the way we look down on it. But when you begin to understand that and you understand that human beings are all addicts, then you go, well, why are we addicted? Because addictions are for one reason only. Well, there's two reasons, but they tie together. One is community and the other one is to feel better. And we feel better when we have community. That's why they're tied together. So we are all trying to feel better. What does that mean? Means we're all trying to feel a bit happier. So you start understanding that and you go, okay, so is my pursuit of happiness what is actually destroying my life and making me willing to destroy other people's life, as opposed to How can I live a life that is purposeful, meaningful, and impactful? And, and as a byproduct, I get to feel better. So the byproduct is the happiness as opposed to the pursuit of happiness, which is vastly different because one is narcissistic and destructive in the happiness-driven one. The purpose-driven one is service-driven. It's caring, it's loving, and it's deeply fulfilling.. And it gives the secondary result of happiness, but in the understanding that it's transitory.

No, I'm glad you said that. That's a, that's a huge point, and it's much more tangible. I mean, your purpose can be clearly defined. So, you know, in that respect too, and I can already tell this is, this is going to be a conversation we're going to have to bridge this over several episodes. But for now, let's talk a little bit more about, about this from an organizational perspective. Now, I know you and I are singing in perfect harmony that an organization is nothing more than the collective efforts of a bunch of individuals, right? But people still try to put it off in a different category, and I think, and I understand why. If we're talking about things from a technical management perspective, which is, I think we both agree, is important for an organization to survive. Of course. But still, they need to connect that technical aspect to something that we're talking about here. That sense of purpose and to make it tangible, make it real. How do you get— how does a leader of an organization sort of rally the troops? And does— here's a side question, and they're tightly related because we— this comes up in workshops all the time. Is it the sole responsibility— I mean, usually by default, the founder sometimes defines the purpose, at least at first. But is it the sole responsibility of the top management to define that purpose, or should they be open to an evolving purpose that comes from all different levels depending on what they're facing at any given day?

Great question. So, and multi-layered, as you said. So first of all, you're absolutely right, is that purpose is generally defined by the founder. However, having said that, most founders don't define their purpose. That's the weird part, right? Right. So most of them. So, you know, when I talk, go into a company and talk about purpose, one of the things I'll say is if this is a multigenerational family, if there's a pretty good chance that you've actually lost sight of the purpose, if it, if it ever existed, because the real reason that people go into business is because they want to create a better life for themselves and the people that they love. That's not very purpose-driven. It's just like, you know, I just don't want my kids to suffer. Right.

Okay, great.

That's not the same as having purpose. Now, sometimes there genuinely is purpose there. That's a different thing. So when we go in, we go— very often they'll say we have a purpose. What they actually have is a mission statement, or they've read Simon Sinek's book Start With Why, which is a great book. And it is better than a mission statement, but it's not purpose. It's a why. Purpose is the why of your why. It's what's underneath that, what's psychologically drives you. So when— so we say if we can get the owner, if we can get the founder, if we can get the person who started the business, then we start digging into the depth of what that is. Now here's the thing. What we do is we want to work with the executive team. So you got your CFO, your CMO, your CIO, etc., all those together. And what we're doing is we want to find the number one, start with personal purpose. What is the personal purpose of each of those people? Once we've got that, they begin to see something which I love, which is, you know, I wrote my dissertation on, which is they see the resonance of why they were all drawn together. What— how the hell did we end up working here, all of us? And, you know, I— you know, if you think about it in a big sense, I think that's kind of weird. But here's how we were all drawn together. And they start to see the commonality between— there's a thread that runs through, a one red thread that runs through each of the people who are in that executive team. And then they go, well, we're at this company. What does this company do? What do we actually facilitate? And when they see that, then we start going into what's the purpose of the organization. And that purpose doesn't change. That's core. The expression of it certainly can change, but the purpose remains the same. It's still the same core. Now, What we do is we're developing a program where we can take that into the culture of an organization, have everybody in the organization find their purpose, and then look for the one red thread that ties them back into the corporate purpose. Now, here's what's interesting about it. Purpose is a magnet. What that means is it attracts on one side and repels on the other. So it pulls the right people in. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm so aligned with this purpose. And other people are like, I don't give a crap about this. And they go away, which is great. It's fantastic because you're losing far less and you're gaining far more. Because here's the other thing, and I wrote about this in Purpose Is Missing piece, is that your people then become evangelical about your company and they start— your best recruiters are the people who work for you. So that is one of the great benefits of being a purpose-driven organization with purpose-driven leaders and a purpose-driven culture. Is your people become the human resource. They become the pool. They start pulling great people in and it repels the bad ones out.

Yeah, I imagine they operate as filters too, right? Because when you feel great about, when your work and when your personal purpose, I'm not trying to be alliterative on purpose, but when your individual purpose is in alignment with that organizational purpose, right? You don't want anybody polluting that, right? So, when you hear somebody that's like, right, that sounds like a great job. Can you get me an interview? And you know that person isn't right, you're more likely to say, hey, you know what? Yeah, you can probably find something a little bit better fit for you, right?

Yeah. Or we don't have any availability.

Or I don't want you stinking up my office.

You know, I really like you, but I don't want you here. Right.

So, oh, and don't we all have people in our lives like that? Right.

Exactly.

Of course. Exactly.

It's a wonderful, wonderful filter. I was working with a company in Philadelphia. They are in health technology. And I had been working privately with the CEO and been mentoring him and helping him to find his purpose. And he said to the executive team, we're going to bring Dov and Ren in and we're going to do this. And they're like, oh my God, they're so busy. And Jonathan's like— Jonathan's the chief medical officer. He's like, I don't have 2 days. To take off. I'm— and he's literally flying all over the world constantly. I don't have time for this. And I don't believe in this woo-woo shit. That's his words, not mine. I don't believe in this woo-woo shit. And he's a surgeon, the chief medical officer, a pilot, and an inventor. So, you know, he's a very left-brained kind of guy. And I was talking to a CEO here in Vancouver who knows him well. And he said, yeah, he said he started to tell me about it. He started to cry. He goes, because like tears flooded over me, so much joy, so excited about how everybody is suddenly so— and he talked about how there's members in the executive team that he's been friends with for 12 years and he knew them better in 2 days. And they're more bonded than they've ever been, right, as a company. Now, when you get that kind of momentum of people going, okay, we're here to change the world with what it is we do, via this vehicle. Wow, that is transformational.

I'm so glad you shared that story too, because that happens. And I understand that people, you know, have what they feel are more pressing priorities at any given time, or they're just, just outright busy and they forget, right? We all forget sometimes that, you know, the real power that drives any organization is the people., right, and the relationships that we have within that organization. Because without those, the organization can't exist, or it's dying. I mean, there's a lot of— I've been challenged on that, and I've been in organizations where I've seen it. People say, well, you know, everybody around here are a bunch of assholes, but we seem to be turning a profit still. I said, well, yeah, and you might live long enough to see that happen, but somewhere along the line it's falling apart, right? We see that. We can, of course, we can isolate metrics that'll show them it's dying too.

But yeah, but we also know that, we also know that engagement is less than, less than, less than a quarter of your workforce is engaged, right?

Right.

So, so if you're making a profit, that's awesome, good for you. You're doing that with a 25% engaged body of people. What would happen if you, what would happen if you had 50% of them engaged?

Well, that's the next thing is That's the thing. When you dig behind the data, right behind these numbers, you see it. We can say globally that less than a quarter of the workforce is engaged. And a lot of people take that and say, well, that means a quarter of my people are— or three-quarters of my people are disengaged. And sometimes I say, yeah, that might be. But here's how those numbers play out. Your competitor that's kicking your ass, 70% of their people are engaged. And that's why they're kicking your ass, right? You're on the other end.

I said, you think it's marketing, you think it's marketing, you think it's, you know, I think it's some strategy, right? But this, the strategy is the people, right? So the strategy is the people. So bottom line is, if it, if you're making a profit, that is awesome. And I will say, you know, oh, well, we're doing good. I don't know if we need this. And I go, great. You know the stats on engagement? Yes. Well, what if you just doubled the engagement?

Exactly. That's it. Exactly.

Double that and then see what happens to profits.

Well, as we wrap things up, this is a perfect commercial for both our work individually and for the collective work we're going to do in the future. And so, because that's what it is, you cannot ignore this. You can't afford to ignore what we're talking about, right? You do so at your peril. So, you know, it's hard sometimes. It's hard for us, for Dov and I, to sit here and show a clear cause and effect when we're talking about your bottom line sometimes with what we're teaching, what we're sharing. But we can sure as hell show you what happens when you don't pay attention to it. And that happens sometimes.

That's a great point.

Yeah. Hey, let's tell people first of all how to access One Red Thread and everything else that you're doing. And then we'll say goodbye for today.

Thank you. So first thing is if you want to find out more about me, you can go to my website, which is fullmonzieleadership.com. There you'll find access to my blog with over 500 articles, my podcast, which also got more than 500 episodes, and my YouTube channel and all the other resources are there. And what's more is actually, if you go to fullmontyleadership.com/gift, guess what? I'm gonna give you One Red Thread. You can go to that page and you can click on the image of One Red Thread, and instead of having to buy it, you can have it as an ebook for you there. Also, as I mentioned in the show, I have a brand new book that is a companion to One Red Thread, which is called Purpose Is Missing Peace, which allows you to tap into how to put this into your organization and have your people become fiercely loyal inside of your organization by tapping into intrapreneurship. So how that can work for you too. They're both there, find them there. And here's one other thing. I want to ask you to do something. Jim puts together this show, finds you great guests, takes his time and his guests' time to bring you the very best in what it is that you need to learn. As leaders, leadership is about impact and influence, and part of that is reciprocity. So what I want you to do is I want you to let Jim know what you got out of this show. Write to him, go to iTunes, rate, review, and subscribe to the show and share it with others. Let him know that his time and his energy and his effort were worthwhile. Let him know what you got out of this particular episode. And you can personally email me, D-O-V, at D-O-V-B-A-R-O-N dot com, Dov at Dov Baron dot com. Write to me, write to Jim, tell us what you got out of this, because information is worth a hole in a donut. Transformation comes from application. Tell us what you're going to do with it, and you can write to me personally. And if I can help you or your organization, let me know. I know it's crazy to do that on, on air, to give out your personal email, but I do that, and you'll be surprised at how few people take me up on it. So don't be one of those. Be one of those amazing people who really gives the gratitude to Jim and lets him know that you appreciate what he's done. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for allowing me to serve you and the audience, Jim. I really appreciate it.

From the heart, thank you so much. And I can't think of any better way to wrap things up today. Thank you.

Thanks, Mike.

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