036 Dr. Diane Hamilton - Cracking the Curiosity Code

Curiosity. When we talk about beginner's mind as a key to effective leadership, it means approaching each new day with a sense of wonder and curiosity. And that's how we maintain an attitude of learning and growth. And of course, you want everyone on your team to be full of wonder and curiosity, right? That's what we're talking about in this episode with our guest, Dr. Diane Hamilton.

Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk. Your host, The original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Dr. Diane Hamilton knows what she's talking about when it comes to curiosity. She's a speaker, author, and academic, and the host of the fabulous Take the Lead radio show. Her PhD is in business management, and she's a certified emotional intelligence instructor. So we're very glad to have her. So let's dive right in. Diane, can we start by explaining your Curiosity Code Index and the 4 factors that get in the way? I was really intrigued by that.

Oh, well, thank you. It's so nice to be on your show, and you were so great to be on mine. And I, um, I've had a great time talking to you about a lot of this stuff.

Oh, we'll talk many, many more times, I think.

Oh, I hope so, uh, because I think that, you know, the curiosity, um, topic has come up on a lot of the shows, uh, with everybody because it ties into so many things. And what— it's what led to me creating the Curiosity Code Index which is a part— it goes along with the book Cracking the Curiosity Code and the training that I've been doing. But what all of it is based around is I wanted to see what held people back from being curious because as I talk to leaders and just successful individuals on my show or through my students and all the courses I teach, there's one thing that keeps coming back is that all these people that were really successful were really, really curious.

Amen.

And the people who really could use a little bit more success in their lives were not as curious. And I was thinking, you know, I want to write a book about this. And then as I started writing the book, I go, well, you know, there's books about curiosity, there's books about, you know, how important it is, and what drive and motivation and finding your why. And all the books and everything out there was really important research, but I didn't find a lot of, you information on like what was holding us back and how to fix it. And that's where my research went in a new direction and I thought, well, in addition to the book, I wanted to create the Curiosity Code Index. So the index, what I did was I spent a couple years talking to just, you know, everybody through my research and through my— on my shows and I sent out a bunch of questions trying to find out What is it that keeps people from being curious? And I started to get data back and it started to fall into 4 buckets. And those were fear, assumptions, technology, and environment. And so I thought, well, these are probably the factors that hold people back. I kept everything kind of blended. I mean, would fall perfectly into these categories. I mean, you'd call it something different a little bit, but you'd go, well, that's really an environmental thing, or that's really a fear thing. And so I thought, well, I want to test this. I don't want to have an assessment that's not valid and that you can't use. I don't want it to be just a simple thing that you take online. I wanted this to be like an emotional intelligence test or something serious. So I went through a lot of factor analysis training to go back to all my days of statistics training and everything like that, which was so much fun.

The little exposure I've had to that— I can only say I admire you.

Such a joy. Such a joy. And so, you know, I hired people and I found that it was better if I did a lot of that myself because it really was what I knew best of what I had studied for years of what I believe were the factors. And it was really hard to come up with the questions to make sure it all came out to measure what you're really trying to measure. But after a lot of factor analysis, a lot of sending out studies and surveys— I mean, surveys, I should say— we, we got some really great data and found that really those were the 4 main factors. And it created this Curiosity Code Index, which is meant to give a baseline and tell you, you know, how you— how these factors affect you. And then it also Tells you, you know, some feedback of how to improve in these areas and has you do some planning to overcome, you know, setting goals and all these other things. And so the assessment can be taken individually or be given to organizations, but it's also available as part of SHRM has put it on as for recertification credit. So if I have a lot of HR consultants on my show, a lot of people from leadership consultants and HR individuals on the show, and they can all become certified to give this to the organizations and get credit at SHRM in the process. So it's one more tool in addition to, you know, everybody likes to take these assessments, you know, engagement, DISC, emotional intelligence, all those. This is one more.

Don't get me going.

In a good way or a bad way?

We'll save that for later.

Okay, that is a long-winded answer of what the CCI is.

No, it's interesting because we'll touch on the issues. I'll touch on the issues I have with some assessments, and one of them is, and this is one of the reasons that I'm so intrigued with yours, and you just hit the key point that I think people need to hear, is that one of the issues I have is so much fun because you're such a good spirit, so it's fun to pick on an academic and know that it's in the right spirit. Go ahead, go ahead. So many people in the academic world, the research is all great. I mean, it's wonderful. It's wonderful and it's validating in a lot of ways because a lot of the stuff that we have data for now, for instance, the one that really gets me going is, I won't say the school because I'm not sure and I don't want to quote the wrong one, but there's another study that was just commissioned that's basically looking into the idea that people work harder when their leaders care about them. I mean, duh, we need another study for that.

You know what I mean?

But anyway.

How many millions was spent on that?

Yeah, yeah, but too many times there's all this collection of data and really not too many tools for what to do with it. And you, you know, you quoted a lot of the books that I like too. There are a lot of books out there that are just full of all this information. Well, that's great. Now what do I do? So I want to get into that a little more, and I'm going to start with the environmental part. And the reason I'm starting with that one is because, you know, there's a lot of, right, there's a lot of talk in the leadership world today that one of the most important roles of a leader is to to create the right environment, right, in which people can thrive. That's a tangible way, I think, for us to get all this emotional intelligence wrapped up into a good package that people can feel and touch, right? So let's talk about a little bit. So environmentally, how do you set up the right environment for people to be curious and explore the, you know, new possibilities?

Well, environment is an interesting thing because there's past and present. On environment. And you got to look at some of the things that have impacted you from childhood even, you know, your parents, your siblings, your teachers, your friends, you know what I mean? There's so many things that somebody might have said something to you, or you may have always expected your family to all go into law or the police or, you know, whatever the thing is, they've directed you certain ways. Or you may have had a boss who just, you know, never ever exposed you to learning anything new, or you just don't know exactly, you know, how much impact everything has had. But in the assessment, we tried to look at a lot of different factors like that because once you can figure out what it is that, you know, you're not even really aware of— oh yeah, my family always made fun of me when I—

Right, no, right. Well, that's a huge one, sure. And then people have to deal with it in the workplace years later, right?

Right. And so the workplace, what you're doing is you're, you're looking all the way back to some extent, but you're looking at the present as well. And you're thinking, okay, so this person's never really come to me and asked, told me they were interested in this because they were, they've always felt like they shouldn't or they can't, or the, you know, you have to open up this dialogue so that people feel comfortable to even acknowledge some of these things are problematic for them. Some of them don't even know that their environment impacted them at all or that their current environment's impacting them.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of leaders don't realize that. And I think this is really important. In my training the trainer type of seminars I'm doing, we're gonna help consultants and HR professionals do exercises that not only help individuals create action plans, but also have the individuals create action plans for the organization leaders of what they'd like them to do to help them be more curious.

Oh, that's nice. That's really helpful. Now, this idea though too, that there's a— I think it's a pretty prevailing school of thought that— because I appreciate what you're saying. Sometimes I think as leaders, we might take on too much, right? Trying too hard to try to create this perfect environment. We don't know everybody's past. We don't know everybody's, you know, foibles. But even though we should be trying more to understand them, what about this thought that leaders also have to avoid creating a damaging environment, right, where you're really crushing curiosity and crushing innovation? I can't remember who's— was that a Simon Sinek thing? Where he said that leaders can do more damage or something like that.

Probably. It sounds like him. It does sound like him, doesn't it? I love Simon. Well, you know, it's funny because I was at a convention, a summit recently, and I won't say the name of the group, but one of the big leaders up there was saying, you know, when people come to you and ask you, say they want this or that, or they don't want this or that, or they're questioning things, I see that as insubordination, you know. And yeah, and I'm thinking, you know, that time, that way of thinking really needs to change, that people can ask questions, you know. And, and I think there's that mindset out there.

It's, it's hanging on, isn't it, somehow?

Right, right.

We're trying to eradicate it.

Well, I don't think, you know, I mean, when you came from a Mad Men timeframe like I did, you know, back then you were, you You know, you didn't question things. You did what you were told. And, you know, it was a different time. And I think this is a person who was, you know, a boomer saying this. And I think it's hard for people to see how much damage that that can do sometimes.

No, it is. And, you know, I just want to comment that the flip side of that sometimes is because people are, I think, more passionate about sharing their ideas and they get frustrated if they're not able to. We also have to temper that with a little bit of healthy deference, right, a little humility, right, bringing ideas and people are already in place that have some experience that needs to be respected. But let's look at the fear part of it. I'm curious about that too, because you know from our talk before that courage is a huge element in the whole Sensei Leader movement, right? And of course, courage is not the absence of fear. The absence of fear is stupidity. People need to be fearful when it's right. It's a survival mechanism, but it's about facing your fears and dealing with them. That's what courage is all about. So how do people— what fears do you encounter with people that make it an impediment to curiosity, and how do you help them face them and overcome them?

Well, there's just so many. I mean, they can have Fear of competition, fear of humiliation, fear of stupid.

That's a big one, isn't it?

Yeah, you know, you don't want to look stupid. I think that's a big one for a lot of people.

Oh God, what was the poll a few years ago? They said the top, it was top 5 fears, and they do it from time to time.

Yeah.

And death was always like third or fourth.

Yeah, exactly. Public speaking.

Yeah, and the fear of looking stupid. We're like, I said, so we fear looking stupid and dying more than we fear talking to people. More than death, it's crazy.

But yeah, right, it is crazy. But that's, that's why people don't like to speak. They don't want to look stupid, you know, they don't want to make a fool of themselves. They don't want to— these are all the same issues, you know. And it's, it's hard because if you've never, uh, opened yourself up, uh, to criticism, right, you know, because of it, it, you You have built this shell around yourself to avoid it, and because you must have had a painful experience with it in the past, and it could have been just recently in this current company. You know, there's— you don't know how far back things go until you start talking about it. And that's what I think is really important with fear, is really focusing in on what, what is it specifically that's causing the problem. And that's why it breaks it down into several different areas and the assessment of different fear, different areas of assumptions, technology, and environment. So you can kind of get a real well-rounded idea of the types of fear that you're most frightened by, the things that most frighten you, I should say. And some of the factors overlap a little bit. You can have fear of technology, for example.

Yeah, I do. To a degree.

To a degree, yeah. You know, everybody's got a little degree of everything and nobody expects everybody to all of a sudden get up on stage and do a TED Talk in front of the President tomorrow night. You know what I mean? It's not going to happen. You have to take baby steps with people and build a culture where you maybe make yourself a little more vulnerable and say, okay, I know this, we've said that no question is a stupid question. Is a dumb question, but our actions really haven't followed what our words were. And I'd like to start by asking a question I normally would feel uncomfortable asking so you could see that I'm embracing this culture. And put yourself out there a little bit. It really helps people to embrace a culture when they see that the leaders are doing it.

No, and there's no shortcut to it. You're exactly right. It's a matter of What did Lao Tzu say? Every journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Well, that's what the rest of the journey is made out of too, right?

Right.

Culturally, let's look at that a little bit too, because one of the key strategies we explore, especially with aspiring leaders, is the idea to act before you're asked or ask before you're asked, to be proactive and get out there and expose yourself like you were just talking about. But one of the pushbacks that happens sometimes, and this was interesting, this has happened in a couple workshops, out. Somebody said, well, you know, I want everybody to bring, bring me questions and problems, whatnot, but don't bring me a problem unless you have a solution. And I thought about that and I said, wow, that could be really dangerous, couldn't it? Because the person who could identify— and this was in a— it first came up in a healthcare setting. And I thought, you know what, sometimes it's that nurse practitioner or the assistant that gets a closer bond with the patient and can detect a problem before the people who can really provide— you know, this person isn't qualified to provide a solution or even suggest one. Right? So how do we break down— well, are you seeing that in your work? Are you seeing that there are still cultural barriers?

I think that's really important. You bring up a really big point because you might notice that there's a problem, but you don't have the skill set to solve the problem.

Or the authority, right?

Or the authority, and the people who have all that may not recognize it. And so that kind of silos, you know, people into these little boxes, and that can be problematic. I tell a story in my book of a hospital in England where they were having a real slow turnover rate and they were not very efficient. And one of the leaders went and was watching pit crews changing tires and went, "Look at those guys, how fast they're doing that. Why can't we do this?" Right? And he had them come in and watch what they were doing. It was unbelievable what they did for their efficiency. So sometimes you have to go to another group to get a solution. You know there's a problem. He knew there was a problem, he just didn't know how to solve it. But then somebody else with fresh eyes who is completely unrelated to what they're doing could come in and go, yeah, well, that's your problem. Here's how you fix it. Yeah.

No, that's key, you know, that fresh perspective. Isn't it interesting sometimes, you know, we're up against it. And someone else comes in and they see a solution quickly. And it's not really because, well, sometimes, but not always because they're smarter than us or anything. It's just the fresh set of eyes, right? It's just a new— and that might tie into what we're talking about here because, you know, we may be jaded in the moment, right? We've been up against this problem. It might become tedious, and this other person comes in and they're more curious about it, right? Because they've got that fresh perspective. True, false? I don't know.

No, it is. It's part of your environment. And you look back and you maybe were taught something a certain way and then technology changes or you haven't looked at it in a new way since you've got new experience. I mean, there's just so many factors that you just don't know what you don't know sometimes. And if you get somebody in who's just coming in going, "I don't know what this is," they just figure it out. And because they've never been taught, it's kind of like golf. You ever learn the wrong way and then you try to fix it? It's a lot harder.

Every day. No, we went through that in martial arts too, where people would come in with bad habits from some bad technique. And you're right, it's harder to break that down and then start from scratch. So, you know, the tech thing though, let's— it's not my focus, but let's talk about that a little bit because I'm sure a lot of people are interested in that aspect. Because here's the thing, you know, I joke about being a little bit of a technophobe myself, but I really love it. I'm really a gadget head, and they're making it so much easier for us to access all this stuff, right? So to me, that's an interesting one. Why wouldn't somebody be curious about learning new technology these days? I mean, it seems it opens the world to us, you know what I mean? It gives us access to so much power that we didn't have before.

I think that you probably see that more because you've used it, and I think a lot of people who haven't used it don't really even know what they're missing, you know what I mean, in some respects. And so, "Well, I've always done it this way, it's fine." I don't really need to learn something new. It sounds complicated. I don't have the time. You know, they have a dialogue in their head that they think they have to start at the top. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And they think, you know, I just learned this thing. I don't want to try something new because this BlackBerry is working just fine, you know. Whatever it is, it can be challenging because people have different dialogues in their heads of what their reasoning is. But there's so much— like I said before, it can overlap with fear that they don't think that they're capable of learning it. They have this thing in their head that it's going to be worse than it is, that they're making assumptions. So technology can overlap with some of the other things. But a lot of it is lazy. You just want the technology to do it for yourself— for you, because why do I need to know how to calculate? The computer does it, you know. And, and you really learn good critical thinking skills by knowing how, why things happen. I mean, you ever had your computer crash? Well, you learn all kinds of things trying to fix that.

No, disaster is a great teacher, obviously.

Yeah, sometimes through things like that you learn, you go, okay, well, that's it, you know. And one of it, I, you know, I met Steve Wozniak and I loved his book. At the beginning, he talks about His father and how his father trained him, taught him to do certain things when he was young. Like, he would— they would build things together, like a little, you know, I don't even know what it was anymore, but nuclear power plants, probably, or you could like hook up electricity to do something, or whatever it was, you know, to see— make something move. And he would say, you know, this is why this is required, because this brings this to that. And he went through this deep explanation of the reasoning behind why you'd want to attach this to something else to make it work and how it made it work. And I think that those foundational ways of thinking really led to his success because he knew how to reason and be, you know, a critical thinker to develop what he later developed.

I really appreciate that. But the thing is now If we're talking to leaders, first of all, they can't afford the luxury of not being curious about technology. I don't care what industry you're talking about. Technology is just becoming such an embedded part of everything we do, and those who don't get curious are left behind. So what if they didn't have Papa Waz around to tell them that shinbone connects to the knee bone, all that stuff? What would you tell somebody today? Because I was lucky too. I grew up, my father was a contractor for years. You're right, those processes, sadly, in our— oh, I can't remember the name of the wonderful book I read a couple years ago, and this psychologist explored that same phenomenon. Because we are not as connected to our machines, our mechanical processes, that people are really missing a huge part of the cognitive process, right? Because they don't understand the connections in other ways either. But let's talk to that leader who All right, they grew up without this curiosity about technology. What would you say to them? How do you help them get curious in a hurry? Because they damn well better, huh?

Well, I'll tell you, you know, I don't know how, you know, there's no way to say how fast is in a hurry, but what I would say is that—

I will, I'll be blunt about it now. You're going to get left behind.

Yeah, you know, well, being left behind—

Go to Dr. Diane's seminar today.

Yeah, you know, how many times have you heard the Blockbuster or the Kodak or the whatever case studies? Okay, think about the people who worked at Blockbuster, you know, and at Kodak. They had the opportunity to go to the next level. They were presented with ideas, right? And so say that they had listened to Netflix and some of the proposals that they had. Netflix been around less than 20 years. There's— it's near— it rivals the size of Disney. Disney right now, right?

Right.

So there's gonna be another Netflix, another Uber, another company where the leader there is saying, I love this, you know, go ahead, put your head in the sand, right? Because if you do that, you will be left behind, and you don't have a choice in today's market because it's just like saying I don't want to have a telephone. I mean, well, you know, okay, well then nobody's ever gonna call you, and you're never gonna have any communication. So you really have to hire people if you can't figure it out on your own to help you. I mean, there's so much— there's so much data out there that it's almost impossible not to learn. I mean, you can even go on YouTube for a day and learn anything you want to know. You can probably do open-heart surgery tomorrow.

Right, exactly.

I mean, it's crazy. So the information's out there. It's It's a question of prioritizing it and making it be something that you really want to learn and hiring people to cut through the wasted time, people who really know what you really need to know for what you're doing and start there and add on.

I think you drilled right in here, right? Because so many people, we can't know everything, but someone, I'm going to equate leadership now with a position of authority. If you're in a position of authority and you're a good leader, Yeah, if you're not curious about a specific area but you know it's important, then you've got to get people in that, in place that are going to help you there, right, or be able to do it.

Right, right.

Yeah, the other thing about the operation of YouTube, I shouldn't, I hope Alex, our executive director, is not listening because she has to go through some kind of a medical procedure sometime soon and I said, don't worry about it, I'll go on YouTube and learn how to, I'll do it for you.

Nothing like instilling confidence in her.

Oh man, because Yeah, we won't go too far down that road, but in my past, let's just say that I've conducted some medical experiments on myself. That was just something we did back in the day.

That's so funny. Yeah, you could learn too many things on YouTube.

There was a certain pride in that in the martial arts, you know. Oh yeah, no, I stitched that up myself. Yeah, it looks like you did.

Oh, that's great. You're bringing to mind Lethal Weapon. Right. When they're comparing scars.

Yeah, yeah, there you go, there you go. Well, it seemed fun at the time. Looking back, maybe I would have done things differently. But listen, we only have a couple minutes left, so I want to make sure— and then we can talk a little more— but I want to make sure people know how to get in touch with you, how to access the seminars, the workshops you're doing, the index that you're talking about, and all of that good stuff.

Well, I mean, I'm available everywhere on social media at Dr. Diane Hamilton, so D-R, for doctor, so D-R-D-I-A-N-E-H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N. You go to my main website at drhamilton— I'm sorry, drdianehamilton.com, but for the Curiosity information, we have curiositycode.com as the main website for that, and that's where you'll be able to get the book, the instrument, if you're an HR person or, you know, leadership consultant, you can get trained. All that information will be available there. And basically, I mean, you could contact me through the website or social media. I'm on LinkedIn probably the most, but I, I'm on all of them.

You know, if you're willing, I'd like to make that available too in our resource section for people that are involved with the Sensei Leader Movement, because I think that would be a powerful tool for a lot of organizations.

Oh, I would appreciate that. I think it definitely, you know, I've got some big-named companies I can't name, but they are right now doing some testing and looking at how it's helping. And it's just so amazing to see how far this has come in the last couple, you know, years of all this research is finally out there. And it's so exciting, and I'm looking forward to it now that it's on, you know, SHRM. I'm gonna be speaking for SHRM this summer, and, you know, there's just so much I just think it's the perfect timing for it all. I mean, everybody's talking about innovation, everybody's talking about engagement, everybody's talking about all these things— motivation, creativity— everything boils down to that spark, and the spark is curiosity that leads to all this. And they've never needed it more than when artificial intelligence is going to make everybody need to be more innovative.

Oh, absolutely. You know, and I'm going to throw something at you to wrap things up. I'd just like to hear your response to it because there's an old tradition we borrow from the martial arts, and I think I mentioned at the beginning. It's called beginner's mind, and it's approaching each new day with a sense of wonder and curiosity. What can I learn instead of where have I been? And that's really, in martial arts we say that's really the true mind of the master, or the mind of the true master is the way I should say it, right? Never finished, never quite happy but never quite satisfied, always looking for something more to learn. And a new way to grow. So it sounds like we're singing in harmony. What do you think?

Oh, I definitely think so. I give a lot of examples of things that people should do. Read a different page of the newspaper, do different things, take a different route to work, do different things that open up your mind to different opportunities. Little things, start with baby steps. Do the What About Bob routine, you know, start small. And it doesn't, it takes so little. You just really think, you know, why not look into this? This might be an interesting thing. I mean, we're not going to be fascinated by everything that's new, but you know, you don't know until you try. And sometimes you might have tried it when you were young and something's changed since then. So I think it's worth trying again.

Spinach.

Spinach.

I hated spinach when I was young. Now I love it.

You know, vegetables are on the top of my list of things I need to try again.

There you go. There you go. But of course, talking about much more important things for leaders is terrific. Thanks. Listen, hang on for a second afterwards because I want to ask you about putting on the resource thing. Thank you so much for being with us, and I hope you're a frequent guest.

Oh, thank you. This is so much fun, and I loved having you on my show as well. And thank you for the opportunity.

Oh, I appreciate it. We'll talk in just a second. Thanks.

Keynotes, workshops, retreats, webinars, and ongoing training. Each program customized to your unique needs, interests, goals, and budget. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. Learn more about Jim Bouchard and The Sensei Leader at thesenseileader.com.