037 Jim Tunney-Do The Right Thing––Always!

Do the right thing. Should you always? That's what we're talking about today with Dr. Jim Tunney on Walking the Walk.

Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk. Your host, the original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Jim Tunney is one of America's most recognized speakers and he covers a wide range of topics from customer service to team building and leadership. A doctor of education, Jim served as a school principal and a superintendent, but you might know him as the Dean of the National Football League Officials. Jim wore the stripes for about 30 years and did more postseason games and Super Bowls than any other ref in NFL history. I followed Jim for years, but a recent post he did inspired me to have him on the program. So, Jim, when we poll leaders about whether it's always right to do the right thing, well, most say yes, but a striking number say there are exceptions to that rule. And those exceptions are really often compelling and well thought out. So why don't we start there, Jim? What do you think? Are there exceptions to the rules?

No, I don't think so. I've always believed if I had exceptions, then I'm I wouldn't do the right thing on the football field. I could pick and choose when to do the right thing, wasn't it? No, no, I had to do the right thing every time. And if I didn't do the right thing, there were players, coaches, and fans who let me know that was the wrong thing to do. So I believe in doing the right thing. I learned that as a little kid. I think 5- and 6-year-old kids know the difference between right and wrong. They know when they do something wrong. Even animals know right and wrong. Unfortunately, I think our ego gets in the way and we want to try to save ourselves, save our personality by doing something that will save that, even if it's the wrong thing to do.

No, I hear what you're saying. You know, a lot of times when we dig a little bit deeper in workshops, we find out that most of those issues— and I always say it this way too— that the greatest problems in life are not the right versus wrong problems. Those are pretty easy to recognize, but it's the right versus right problems So sometimes when people say, well, there are exceptions to the rule to doing the right thing, what they're often talking about is a conflict in policy where maybe the right thing in one department isn't the right thing in the next department, and so on and so forth. You must see that in customer service, right? Because we work with salespeople and customer service people, we often hear that. They're trying to do the right thing for the customer, but sometimes that conflicts with the overarching company policy, huh?

Unfortunately, that may be true. I think there's a difference in terms of right and wrong. I mean, if you take the, And it's a terrible example because it's terrible leadership for our country, but the difference between right and wrong, Republicans and Democrats, they're both right in their beliefs and what they want to do. They might disagree on style and things, but the principle thing is to do the right thing for the country. I think the late George H.W. Bush said it pretty well, being human and being humble in what you do, stressing the right thing, but understanding the other person has a point of view. They think it's the right thing to do too. It's not a matter of just black and white and right and wrong in terms of policy. I believe in one policy, you might believe in another, and I have to respect the policies you believe in. I don't think it's wrong. I think it's different than mine, but there's a difference between different and right and wrong.

It is unfortunate we get hung up so much on that, isn't it? Because that kind of obscures, doesn't it, the real values that I think you and I are talking about more, where at a certain point we're going to find common ground. Right, where there's— there is that, that absolute. And it's like I said, it seems too often that we're just, we're just not getting there.

We don't want to understand the other person's point of view, thinking the other person is wrong. And that's not— that's not— that's the wrong word to use, is the wrong— is the word wrong. It's not— that's a difference of opinion, right? Difference of opinion doesn't mean right or wrong. It just means that I believe in one thing and you believe in another. It happens in all walks of life. And as you say, with a customer, you know, we'll We said rule number one, the customer is always right. Rule number two, rule number two, if you don't believe that, read new rule number one. So it's, uh, you want the customer to have the right thing for the best thing for maybe the word best is more used than the word right, but what is best for the customers is what any, every salesperson wants to do.

You know that I never thought of that. That sounds kind of interesting because as soon as you said that, I was ready to come up with a challenge where I taught martial arts for about 30 years and I do remember some conflicts with the customers who were often the parents of children that I was teaching. And those conflicts came usually when I saw that the parents were either doing something that was harmful for the children or something that just morally and ethically that I couldn't abide. And so even though that person was the customer, gosh, I couldn't say they were right. I felt my responsibility was to do what was right for the safety and the benefit of that child. Child rather than what that particular customer might have thought best for him or her, huh?

Yeah, I was involved in the school business for a long time, Jim. As a high school vice principal as well as principal. The vice principal job I had for 5 years was I was in charge of the vice in the school, so I knew right from wrong. But I learned from my father a long time ago, when you're, when you're disciplining, disciplining a youngster, think of 3 things. Number 1, what, what's best for the child at the time. Number 2, what's best for the group because you have other people involved. And number 3, what would you do if this were your child? And if you would do it that way, then in keeping those 3 principles in mind, you generally end up with the right answer. Sometimes you, you have the, the right answer, the best answer, and the person just won't accept it because they want something else. Even if it's, if it's against values, they'll fight for whatever they think they want. And that's where ego gets in the way. And if you notice in the column that I wrote about doing the right thing. Ego, by definition, is E-G-O, edging God out. And if you edge God out, you kind of lose your sense of principles in terms of the values you're trying to establish.

Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up. I want to come back to a couple of examples in a minute, but when you talk about ego, of course, in martial arts we study that a lot. And the common perception is that part of the practice of martial arts is to destroy that ego. And, you know, we get caught in a semantic twist sometimes because, of course, psychologically there's a healthy sense of self that is described sometimes technically as ego, and then there's that dark side of ego, the one that I think you're talking about there, where, you know, you let our worst nature take over or, you know, blind self-interest. But I think that's important. Sometimes people, when we talk about putting your ego aside, they get too worried that they're going to lose some sense of their true self, and that's not it at all, is it?

That is exactly not it. It's not there. They think if they lose a battle, they've lost something, and that's not it at all. In fact, sometimes you need to allow that person to allow that idea to flow through you and not worry about the fact that you're going to lose a sense of purpose. You lose your sense of purpose. Sense of being. It's okay to lose an argument as long as you understand that you're doing the best thing that you think is right. And I think we all know what right and wrong is, but sometimes we let that ego say, I'm going to outdo you, I'm going to master you, rather than doing the right thing.

Now, you encountered that an awful lot— I'm sure in your career as an NFL ref, and I remember seeing games where, let's say, some coaches with big egos were in your face arguing about different things, right? Oh, that was a lot. How did you manage that? Because when you do have somebody— and I'm sure there are times when that coach absolutely believed they were right.

Well, I've said many times that the integrity of the NFL lies with the official, not with the coach, not with the player. If we didn't have officials, could we play the game? No, we couldn't put 22 people out there without officials and let them just run the game. That's what we do on the playground. In fact, if you go back to the playground when you and I played on the playground, at least I know in my case, we had our own rules. Right. And we all— and you get in, you're out of bounds, you're not out of bounds, and finally someone would say, hey, stop, let's just keep on playing, you know, let's get beyond that. In the NFL, when a coach totally believes he's right, and he does many times, and now let's take the example of the red challenge flag the coach can throw to question a call and it comes back and he's wrong, but he was trying to fight for his team thinking that the idea of throwing the challenge flag, he was going to be right. And it's interesting to me that when I was there and we didn't have the replay, now I was in there when they started the replay, but before they had the replay, the coach He'd yell and scream and holler, and I would listen to him, and I'd say, okay, that's enough, we're on with the game. But now when he throws a challenge flag and he's wrong, he says, okay, well, I guess television's right. They don't believe the person, they believe the mechanism, right? They believe the technology, but they don't believe the person. And that always bothered me because, you know, I'm doing what I think is the right thing. Now, I might have made a mistake in terms of a foul. I might have said the ball hit the ground when it didn't. Or he held when he didn't hold. And I might have been wrong in my judgment there, but I was doing the right thing at the time, and the coach was doing the right thing at the time. And there's a dispute there, and my whole thing was just to listen to the coach, understand what he's saying, and say, Coach, that's fine, but we need to get on with the game, and this is the way we're going to have to play it. And when you listen to the people, understand what they're trying to say, pretty much they're they walk away with a feeling that you're doing the right thing.

Maybe we need referees in Congress.

Oh, badly we need one. Fortunately, unfortunately, or whichever way you want to go, it shouldn't be the president should be able to arbitrate. And that doesn't seem to work in today's environment. I get disappointed that I've always had great respect for people in in Congress, senators or House representatives or presidents. And I'm losing a little bit of that because I see that their ego seems to get in the way. And maybe we need to get rid of this thing called tweet. I don't think very often, Jim. Yeah, but I see people tweeting all the time just to defend themselves.

Right, right.

That's not for me.

No. And I can tell you from experience, I ran for Congress a couple of years ago, and let me tell you, that's Yes, the social media war is just incredible. It's incredible. I had to— no, I had to walk away from it several days just not to get caught up. But let's talk— so getting back, because our focus obviously isn't too much in political leadership, but in business leadership. And but there's the same thing that's happening, I think. There are people that aspire— and of course, we make a clear distinction between leadership and a position of authority, right?. But in an elected office, the two are supposed to go together. In the boardroom of a company, the two are supposed to go together. And too often these days, we find people struggling with that idea of doing the right thing. Now, two cases we followed recently, one was the Wells Fargo case where people were opening checking accounts without the customer's consent. And the other huge one that really, it's amazed me that it's escaped so much public attention, was the on, and it's still ongoing, the case with Volkswagen and the fraud over their emissions reports to sell more cars. And in both of these cases, wow, we can trace it back and we can find people in specific offices who made a conscious decision not to do the right thing, at least by, you know, what standards we would hold them to. Their defense was they thought they were doing the right thing for their company. There's where the conflict happens.

If the company has that kind of a feeling, sometimes you would, it depends on The money controls it. It's the money that makes the issue, and if we don't do this, we're going to lose the money, or we're going to lose the customers, or whatever. But some people need to step up and say, "No, that's not the right thing to do. I can't do that." And that jeopardizes their job. Well, if you can't do that, then we'll get somebody who will. And that kind of a principled person sometimes gives way to the issue of money or the issue of the company being successful. And it's a difficult thing to do, but if you can say, "No, it's not the right thing to do. I'm sorry, I can't do that." That's the kind of person I want on my team.

Which leads us to the consequences, right, if you choose to go along. And people do. And, you know, I have to say this, having talked to some of these folks, rationally, I understand that choice. I don't support it, but I do understand that choice where people's, like you said, people's jobs are on the line. They may have kids in school. There's a lot of things at risk, but we do have to encourage these folks to do the right thing. It does require courage, right? And that's why it is a remarkable thing to do when you stand up against that kind of weight and pressure. But here, you can throw the flag on me. There's a couple of examples that I thought of when I read your article and things that happened to me in the past, and would love to hear your perspective. And one of them was this, and this goes back to the martial arts days again. And there was a young man who we knew was getting beaten by his father. And he would come in with bruises and cuts and whatnot. He got— it got really bad. It got to the point where a couple of us confronted the father and basically told him if this kid showed up like this again, uh, you know, he was the one that was going to leave looking like that. And it felt like the right thing to do at the time, but the result was, was, uh, it was, it was quick and it was painful. Uh, the father just simply took the kid out of the program. Now we weren't able to do anything for that kid anymore. We thought we had made the right stand, but seems to me in hindsight, with the blessings of many years of hindsight now, there probably were some other ways to handle that, right?

I found that too, that as I sit in the living room and watch the NFL games, I haven't made a mistake in years. I can get the call right every time.

Right.

Particularly when I see it 2 or 3 times. Yes, in hindsight, it's always— the second view is always beneficial. Official, but we don't have that in life all the time. We have to come from the principles that we were taught. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of those principles being taught early on. It's more a get-what-you-can-where-you-can type of thing rather than doing what is best.

And you know, you've been at this business for a long time. Have you seen a line of demarcation where this attitude really shifted in our culture? Is this We have a bunch of scalded frogs here.

A lot of it shifted for me in the late '60s, early '70s when the Me Too-ism came in, that I come first. And you've seen the writings I've done talking about the TEAM with the acronym T-E-A-M, Together Everyone Accomplishes More. Nobody survives in this universe by themselves. They don't— you know, self-made man, I don't I think it's nice that you step up and do what you can do, but you're going to need help along the way, and you need help, you need to help other people too. That's unfortunately, we've got away from that with this me-ism that I come first. And the, the, I go back to the sports, I hate to use a sports issue all the time, but the showboating that goes on, and, and look what I did, I just scored a touchdown, and I just made a tackle, and they step out there and pound their chest like Tarzan. Yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't do I'm thinking you couldn't have done it without everybody else helping along the way, and I remind that of people. But that's what we've lost, the me-ism that I come first, and it doesn't make any difference what you think, I'm going to do what I want to do anyway.

You'd think football players would know that better than anyone, right? I mean, nobody makes a play without 10 other guys making a block, right?

And I've seen that in so many teams, Jim, where somebody A team captain will step up and say to a player who's showboating, as we used to call it, "We don't do that on our team. We're a team sport. We don't do that type of thing." But nowadays, if you do that, the other players don't do anything because, "Well, that's the way they are and we'll let them be like that." That loses some chemistry as far as I'm concerned. It loses the feeling that I'm part of the team but I'm doing it by myself.

Right, right. It does. It creates distance, doesn't it? But thankfully, and we're seeing I've been saying this a lot with the Sensei Leader movement that so many more leaders now are turning on to the idea or rediscovering the idea because none of this is new. I mean, I keep quoting Lao Tzu and Confucius from 2,000 years ago. But still, and people are amazed, "Oh my God, that's really a smart statement." Yeah, well, it's been around for a long time, right? But I think the best leaders, the most effective leaders are the ones who understand that their performance is solely dependent on the performance of others, right? That they're only going to become become more powerful, more effective by helping other people become more powerful and effective.

Absolutely. And some of the really strong players that I've seen, and I've seen just lots of players over my 30 years on the field and the years that I watched, I've seen great people step up and quietly say to the other person, you know, we don't do that here. Let's think about the team. Think about your teammates. And the other, I wrote a book a few years ago called It's the Will, Not the Skill. Show and featured Herm Edwards, who is now the head coach of the Arizona State Sun Devils. He's always talked in terms of a team that you step up and help the other person, and your own beliefs sometimes will help that person learn that you don't step away from the crowd and be somebody different than everybody else. Be different. That's why these players showboat, because they're different. Some company will pick them up as a spokesperson for commercials and things. That's too bad that they can't see the difference between that and the value of being a part of a team.

Yeah, and you know, again, there's this imprint in martial arts that somehow we go off in the mountains and become hermits and whatnot, right? Very few people survive that way. That's not it. I mean, spending so much time of my life in fighting One of the things that we kept talking about and, you know, especially, you know, you mentioned one of the people that shares your name, right? Two very great boxers, Jim Tunney as well, right? And boxers understand that, that, you know, I'm only as good as my opponent and my opponent is part of my success, part of my growth, part of my development. And that's why I think we have such a respect for our opponents in that arena.

I think it was different between a boxer and a fighter. I think a boxer understands that. That's a pretty— well, it may be my namesake, but no relation. That's why I respected the champ Gene Tunney because he was a boxer.

Gene Tunney, that's right, yeah.

He wasn't a fighter, he was a boxer. And he respected the opponent. And when you show off on the football field and do some silly things because you scored a touchdown or you made a tackle, you disrespect the opponent. Opponent, because you don't want him to do that to you, but you do that to him, that's okay. That always bothered me, that every game is a game of respect. The game that I was involved in, football, for all those years, it's a game of respect, and you've got to respect the opponent because he's trying to do the same thing you're doing. And if you're successful today, that's fine, and maybe tomorrow he'll be successful and you won't be. So there's a give and take all the time. There's a give and take in society and life too, and the same thing in customer service. There's a give and take. You're going to lose some, and it's okay to lose. It's okay to not be successful at that moment because I think you learn more from your losses than you do from your successes.

Oh, you just brought back a memory because one of my trainers when I was boxing, a guy named Dave. He was, oh my goodness, he was like an old Yoda. But one of the things he used to tell us, usually when our nose was hanging off our face, he'd say, "Hey, Jim, don't worry about it. You always learn more when you lose." And then he'd take a deep breath and then he'd add, "But some days you just don't freaking feel like learning anything, do you?" So there is a point. We do want to win some days, don't we? And I think those lessons Unfortunately, so many things in our society, and again, we see this a lot in martial arts where people take this deep Asian philosophy and they turn it into t-shirt slogans and bumper stickers, right? And never stop to think about what these words mean. And he was very wise when he said that, but the lessons that we learn from defeat, we have to go in there and we have to work to find those lessons, don't we? We have to study those lessons. Some of my military friends that are in leadership, they talk about the after-action review. Football teams that review the films afterwards, right? But how many people really do that these days in business life or off the football field?

Off the football field, they don't very often, and that's too bad that you don't sit down and analyze why you won or why you lost. And you analyze why you lost more often than when you won. Oh, we won, we won't have to look at that again. I don't want to do it again.

That's ego, right? That's ego, yeah.

That's ego, sure. As long as I win, why should I review it? I know what I did. But why did you do it and how did you do it? And when you lose, you think, why did I lose? Why did that happen? Why was I not successful? And you really study it that way.

You know, we're so blessed here in the Northeast, and I use them as an example all the time. You'll remember in your time in the NFL that the Patriots weren't quite as strong as they are now. Of course, I was a fan way back when they constantly lost, but it was remarkable. Even yesterday, after that loss at Miami, Tom Brady came out for his press conference and they asked him about a couple decisions. He said, "Look, it's me. I did it. I made a bad decision." That's refreshing these days. Not a lot of these guys will do that.

They won't. I respect Brady for things like that, as I've seen other players saying, "Yeah, it was my fault." fault. I did. I didn't. Yeah, I missed a block. I dropped the ball. And I could remember when Jerry Rice first came in the NFL. I worked the first game that he played in with Montana as a quarterback. And the first pass that he threw to Jerry Rice in the end zone for a touchdown in the third quarter, Jerry dropped the ball. And we come back to huddle, Montana reached over and patted him on the back and said, "Don't worry, Jerry, you'll catch the next one." That was refreshing to hear somebody like that instead of chewing him out and blowing him up, "You cost us a touchdown, you this, you that." It was a matter of saying, stepped up and saying, "Hey, it's okay, Jerry, you'll catch the next one." And he turned out to be probably one of the best receivers we ever had in the NFL. But that ability and confidence, and I think we need that when people make mistakes. When Tom Brady would say, "Well, that was my mistake," and somebody needs to go and say, "Tom, it's okay, you're doing fine. You're all this, you're all that." I've never believed in that GOAT expression, greatest of all time. I don't think there is such a thing.

Right, right. He doesn't seem to believe in it either, which is refreshing too.

And times and conditions change so much in the world and in the game. The game is so much different today. If we talk about the game of football, The game of the NFL today in 2018 is so much different than when I started in 1960.

Right.

And I think we need to understand that. But the building of other people I think is a very important part of the team that you build success by when people fail you, you help those people more than you pat people on the back for the successes they have. That's good too. When somebody fails, they need someone to help to pick them up. That's what it's all about with a family, I would think, too.

No, and again, we're right back to the theme of doing the right thing. It's seldom the right thing to do to point the finger, right? Not that people don't need correction and constructive criticism, but when something's going bad and people are just pointing fingers everywhere, that can take you way off course.

I always use the expression that when you verbally point your finger, if you look at the hand that you're doing, you got 3 of them pointing right at you. Right back at you. Right. And it all starts with me, good, bad, right, or wrong. And that's where the doing the right thing comes in. If I'm doing the right thing and even though I would lose, I know that I did the right thing and I did the best that I could at that time. And that's all life is really about, doing the best you can every day.

Jim, you really struck me throughout the time that I've known about you as a person who really leads by example and walks the walk. Where did it come from for you?

My dad. My dad was a great mentor, a great hero of mine. Died very early at 59 years of age of arteriosclerosis, we call hardening the arteries. And in those days we didn't know that much about it. It was 1965 when he died. But his example, we never sat down and said, okay Jim, now do it this way, this way, this way. His name was Jim, but I'm Jim Jr. Jr. He just did what he thought was right and the best thing, and I watched that and I learned an awful lot of things from him. I was an example. And so many people do that. To walk your talk is to mean that's the way you do it. People see it. And I think a lot of people with children don't realize that what they're doing as parents— kids listen, children listen, children watch.

Oh my God, right? A few, few words can be empowering or crippling.

Absolutely.

Exactly.

And they might— you might not know they're watching, and they might not let you know they're watching, but it is reported that way, no question. I get concerned with the— and it was on television a lot last night about the, the technology, the video games that the kids are watching on, right? The time they're spending on their cell phones and all that. And they watch their parents, and their parents are spending time on video or watch yourself use your cell phone too. They learn a lot from things like that.

Isn't it sad that this technology, and if it was used properly, it really can bring us together, but it's pushing so many people apart, isn't it? They just, it's like horses with the blinders on. Ah, it's crazy.

Yep, and that's where that social media, as you mentioned before, can have such a detrimental effect on the values of people.

People. Jim, we've got to have you back again. It's been way too long since we talked, and you have so much, so much to share and good things that we have good work to do together, I think. And so if you're willing, we'd love to have you back again.

It would be my pleasure. I appreciate this opportunity now, and anytime that we can talk, I'm always ready to be part of what we're doing, Jim. Thank you.

No, really appreciate all your good work and for your service in the public schools. We thank you for your service. My pleasure. My pleasure. That was a lot. One question before we let Scoot— well, first of all, we've got to tell people how to get in touch with you. Let's tell them what your website is and all that.

It's jimtunney.com, and my email is jim@jimtunney.com. I write that weekly column, as you saw, called On the Tunney Side of Sports. And just a comment on that, people ask, where do you get your ideas? And I say, you know, if you watch sports, as I do, there's always something that'll happen. I remember when Jim Bouchard Johnny Carson was asked one time, where do you get your material for a 15-minute monologue every 5 nights a week? You got a 50— where do you get your material? He said, as long as Ronald Reagan is president, I will always have material. So, so I picked up on that and said, as long as there's sports, I'll always have materials. So I write that weekly column on the Chinese side of sports. I put on a, on Constant Contact, and people just can contact me, jim@jimtunney.com.

And I highly recommend people subscribe to that. So it's a really insightful column. It's a lot of fun to read. So one more question before we leave. I heard this yesterday and I've been dying to ask you this. So one of the announcers yesterday posited that in today's game with the penalties like, what is it, 15 yards and automatic first down for looking at a receiver or something like that.

So we're looking at a receiver.

This gentleman said in today's game Dan Marino would probably be throwing for 10,000 yards a season. What do you think?

Well, the quarterbacks have a good time now. The rules committee changed that. Yeah, they opened it up so that we get the Rams and the Kansas City Chiefs. Oh my God. 5-4 game. You know, fans, fans love that. They don't want the 12-6 game, but fans love the scoring all the time and the highlights. And, uh, I'm kind of halfway on that. I like to see a good defensive battle as well as I like to see just scoring all over the place. But, but, uh, you know, the, uh, there's some rules I'd like to change, but they'll, they'll eventually get to some of those. So they're changing rules all time. And I'm not sure they're making the game better, they're making it maybe easier to score, but I'm not sure it's a better game than we had with in the '60s and the '70s.

I'm a defense guy. I played safety. I like defense. Okay, sure, sure.

But then you like the steel curtain and the— there you go— there's some force, some of them, right? People leaders.

Exactly, exactly. There you go. Well, again, thanks, Jim, and we'll talk again soon.

Really I hope so, Jim. Call anytime. Thanks.

Have a great day.

Keynotes, workshops, retreats, webinars, and ongoing training. Each program customized to your unique needs, interests, goals, and budget. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. Learn more about Jim Bouchard and The Sensei Leader at thesenseileader.com.