041 Kizzy Ferrer - Empowering Women in Construction

You know, I get to introduce you to a lot of tremendous leaders, and today you're going to meet one of the best. Today you're going to meet Kizzy Ferrer on Walking the Walk.

Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk. Your host, the original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard.

Kizzy Ferrer is young, dynamic, and is really making an impact in her organization, her community, and her industry. Among other things, she's the chair of the Greater Orlando chapter of NAWIC. The National Association of Women in Construction, one of our favorite organizations to work with. Most of all, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more caring and compassionate leader, someone who truly cares about the people she serves and someone who really embodies the spirit of what we like to call around here the sensei leader. So Kizzy, welcome and thanks so much for spending this time with us.

Oh, thank you. This is such an awesome privilege. I really appreciate the opportunity.

It's an honor to have you. You know, we've met a couple of times and I've been so impressed, you know, with with you and your work. So it's great to have you on here. And you know, the first question I'd just like to ask you, what was your first leadership experience?

I would have to say my very first leadership experience was I grew up on the island of Trinidad and Tobago, and I grew up in church. And we had a very active youth group, and everyone was just, you know, participated in everything. And I was both a worship leader and a youth leader in my church. So it was, I think that was my first experience having meetings, planning events. And as I said, you know, we were a very active youth group. And that was a really positive experience for me. I was probably 14, 15. So—

Yeah, I was gonna ask you how old, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's cool too, because it gives you also, you know, I love to hear those stories because we make a clear separation between management and leadership. You know, like Grace, was it Admiral Grace Hopper said, management's about things, leadership's about people, right?

Yeah.

It's cool that in a position like that, you get experience in both because they're both important.

Yeah. There's a tremendous responsibility that you learn about caring for people at that young age in that sort of environment. Sort of environment, right, where caring for people is— it comes before everything else. And I think if anything, um, sort of overshadows the way that I lead, it's that experience, that people's hearts and their minds and their lives and what we do every day and how much we affect them by our own actions. Um, it was such valuable lessons to learn at such a young age.

Well, that's a perfect segue because now you're in this cutthroat world of corporate construction, right?

And I'm a woman.

There you go. And yet you're going to talk about how important is it, how this imprint of caring and compassion that you learned at an early age, but I'm sure that serves you well in the work that you're doing now. And it's interesting because I grew up in construction, so I've always known construction people as being largely caring people. Yeah, but it's not the general perception, is it? You know, it's a rough and tumble business. So how, you know, how did that imprint help you what you're doing now?

So it's— I always say this, and I say this to every young person at Boyer Building Corp where I work.

I was going to say, make sure you brag about where you're working and all that too.

That's not hard, I have to be honest. It's really not hard to brag about where I work because from the top down there's such a culture of people first. And I know that our industry is really— it's rough, you know, but I've learned in the 6 years being at Boyer that it's about navigating relationships and not in a very— not in a manipulative sense, but truly people can see through to the real authentic self, right? And we kid ourselves when we think that's not the truth, you know. And when you are leading and when you are exemplifying leadership, you learn that really quick, that it's best, it's best to show up and show up powerfully as your authentic self. And I've learned how to navigate relationships by caring about people. And that might sound so cliché, but my God, it is so powerful. And it is powerful because it takes— it doesn't take any extra effort to be kind, to be nice, to be caring. To— it really doesn't. I think it takes more effort to be fake, to be harsh, to be unkind, to be uncaring, um, than to, to actually be the opposite. So, um, that's what I think has helped me to be successful. I work in an industry that's male. You know, dominated. And I don't have— the way you guys are going, I, I, I don't, I don't have an issue with, um, being able to get men to respect me, um, first and foremost because I truly respect myself. But I think it— again, I go back to my respect, you know, for them and truly caring for the person and for their business. It's well represented in my conversations and the way that I do business. And it's like a full circle. And that is the way that, you know, we do business at Boyer.

You know, and I want to come back to that, to the gender issue too, because so many people, you know, have this impression that women that are working in male-dominated industries, that they're, you know, they're just insurmountable challenges. And I know you navigate them well. Most of the people that I've met in NAWIC, I mean, and that's part of how, you know, you support each other in that effort too. But before we get back to that, you know, that authenticity thing I'm glad you touched on that. It's so important because, you know, people do read when someone's inauthentic. It's not— the problem is it's not conscious, is it? It's a feeling that you have because we're, by evolution, we're wired to, you know, perceive other people's reactions to us. It's just that we don't often verbalize it and think about it, right?

Yes, I think the word authenticity should be made almost synonymous to self-awareness because—

Exactly, exactly.

You, you, you really do show up, um, in the world as, as how you perceive yourself, how you value yourself, and, and you show people how to, how to do, how to do just that, you know, how to value you, how to perceive you by what you accept and what you give.

I'm really glad you put it in that framework because too many people confuse authenticity with that cliché, just being yourself. But, you know, that's come up in workshops. I said, but what if you're a jerk?

Yeah, exactly.

Authenticity is also being the person that you create and the person that you want to put out in the world, right? And that's a huge part of it. So it has to do with that self-awareness and the self-awareness, of course, being internalized and also external, right? How How do people perceive you and what are you doing to put out that persona that they're going to feed back to you? And that ties in nicely to this idea of gender, right? Because one of the things that comes up in workshops sometimes with women leaders is this idea that they have to act like men in order to gain respect. And I don't get the impression— we've met a couple of times— I don't get the impression that's the way you do business.

No, it's not. And I'll tell you, one of the very first Impressions I had just, just made me feel very empowered was a meeting at Boyer. I was, I was very, very young with the company, probably first couple months. And I sat, you know, at that time I was still a project admin and, and I'm low on the totem pole, let's just say that. And we were in a conversation, a decision-making conversation, and my boss piped up and said, "Kizzy, what do you think?" I was the only woman in the room. And I vocalized my opinion, said why I thought what I thought, you know, the benefits, the advantages, and so forth. And the team thought about what I said, made a decision based on the evaluation that I gave. And my boss afterwards said, "I want you to always, always do what you did." Don't ever be afraid to say exactly what you think, what you feel. This is that crowd that that's welcome. We want that from you. And I realized at that moment, Jim, most people really don't know this about me. I do not have a construction management degree. I have a business degree. And I think what was highlighted in that moment was that we all bring our own gifts, our own authentic selves. Our own skills, abilities, talents, virtues to the table. But we all have to simply be courageous enough to lean in and to say exactly what we are thinking. So the power is in articulating your authenticity so that it results in increased marketability for you and puts up the volume for you in a way that helps you to move forward. You know, it is difficult being a woman, but I think for every woman in this industry, that's why my theme this year is Build Her, empowering the leader within.

Right, right.

Because we're all leaders in our own way. We just have to find our voice. And that's what I want this year for the women of NAWIC is to see, hey, I can lead. I can lean in. I can get up, show up. Powerfully and make a difference no matter if I have a title or I don't. You know, the power is in me to do just that.

It's funny, you just hit on a couple of themes we should really dig into. In fact, just this morning, I think I did— I do these little 2-minute podcasts on CHIRP a couple of times a week. And the one today we were talking about was the question that people bring up about leading up, right? And again, sometimes it's a generational thing. Sometimes it's a cultural thing. Sometimes it's a gender issue that we might not feel comfortable doing what you just said, expressing yourself honestly with the folks. Because to me, leading up, it isn't about control. I think too many people confuse it with that. There are things, depending on where you are in the hierarchy, there are things beyond your control at any time. But that doesn't mean— and I'm sure we were in synergy about this— true leadership, authentic leadership isn't about control. It's about being able to inspire and empower people, guide people, right? And you can certainly do that in a number of ways, but you have to be— when you're new, right, like you just described, or you're feeling out of place for any of the reasons we described, there needs to be a little bit of deference and humility and respect, right? And it sounds like that's the way you were brought up. Am I wrong about that? No, you're not. I'm remembering too from the workshop, I think it was in Orlando, you seem to respond when we were talking about respect a lot. You seem to be jumping around a little bit about that one.

So yeah, yeah. And I, I see it because at Boyer, most of the people that I work with are about 15, probably 20 years my senior. I am one of the youngest people on the team. And I don't see a gap in the way that I am respected compared to one of their peers.

That's refreshing.

So I think that what why that is, is because of the way that I present myself. And it's not a presentation that says, look at me, I'm here to make a point. I'm here to— no, I think you hit on a really good point. The authenticity of leadership really isn't in the perks, where I park, what I get, how much I get paid. The authenticity in my— and the power behind my leadership, this is how I see it, is when I get in, I plug in and what do I give? How do I make this team better? How do I answer questions to make the solution better than it could have been answered by somebody else? That is how I see powerful, authentic leadership. And as a woman, it really comes from a place of humility because again, I am showing my greatest love through my work. And when I'm working, I'm just enjoying it so much because it's a collaborative effort. It's not me needing power. It is me exemplifying power by empowering others, by helping the teams reach their full potential. Like, let me help you turn your light on. What is it that I need to do to help you be even better. And I have seen that at Boyer. I've talked about it 1,000 times that my bosses, you know, my coworkers are all men. You know, they're most— and on our project team, it's all men. And I feel like there's always the opportunity to stand on somebody's shoulders. And that's rare, but it's a beautiful thing. And it has helped me to turn around and have the younger guys that are working with me as assistant superintendents, me being project management on the projects, they're standing on my shoulders and I feel empowered by empowering them. And it's because of the example that I'm looking at and seeing and being able to replicate and replicate and replicate. And it's a really amazing thing when you really are able to look beyond, as I said, the perks and look towards, like John Maxwell says in his book, Leadershift, towards the price. As a leader, it's not about the perks. It really is about me saying, how can I get you to your destiny? I need to do— that really is the essence of my leadership.

No, that's perfect. And again, you fit perfectly into this idea of the Sensei Leader because Sensei is always measured not by their students equaling their skills and abilities, but by those who surpass them.

Far exceeding.

And to me, that's the best type of leadership too, but that requires a lot of courage. It requires a lot of confidence, and you know, that's, of course, some of the things that we want to work on. And you know, I'm so encouraged too because as you're talking about Boyer, and I'm glad to hear the enthusiasm you have because For anybody that's listening that might want to engage us in workshops and whatnot, we can bring a lot more value to a company when we're singing in harmony. When you're a great company, when you're a great organization, then we can do some real work together. I don't like to fix bad. But I want to challenge you on something. When you're talking about gender, and I know this is a big theme with NAWIC, Every time we've, we've been at a NAWIC conference, it seems to be, you know, a huge, uh, it's a huge part of the content at all these, at these con— how do you get, or do you even want, you know, I know there's a— you want to get more women involved in construction, especially in management positions, right? So from your perspective, really, what's the challenge there? And is, is the gap really more of an interest gap, or is there still some barriers we need to beat down to make sure women can get in?

So, I think it's twofold. I think it is on one side, it's the interest, but I have seen such an interest. I mean, I was actually talking to someone just last week about how many people are trying to get into construction. Just because we're talking about living your authentic life, and a lot of people are realizing, hey, I can really make it in construction even if I have an English language degree, right? Because it's a— it's the kind of field where you can start from scratch with or without a degree and, and learn as you go. It really is an industry that lends itself to the brave, to the risk-taker, to the person who is an avid learner. It really is an amazing industry for someone who—

Well, it changes so fast, right? You want people that are always engaged in learning, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

So we have a pool of people who are interested, right? But we also have to have more people who are at the table saying to those standing at the door, come on, come on, sit, sit down. Sit at the table. Don't be afraid. Yeah, you don't know everything yet, but come sit at the table. And I think that's what's missing in, um, in a lot of, uh, companies where both females and males, I'll let you know, are, are not allowing that old mentality of you've got to come up through the ranks, right?

You know, yeah, you might know everything, but You always know everything until you're actually out there. Yeah, exactly.

And it's about people who are the decision makers in companies, which I think is a really amazing thing that I've realized in the last 6 years working at Boyer. It's really tapping into your employees' skill set. What are they really good at that they can do most naturally, that they love the most, that that really adds to the bottom line in a cohesive way. I mean, if we looked at it that way, then we would hire the right fit instead of just hiring people for numbers. And we would find that we give to our employees more value because we match their skills, their talents, and their abilities with their core, you know, what they are most naturally good at, you know. So if I've seen accountants who are project managers and they're very, very miserable project managers.

Yeah.

They're, I mean, it's part of our process, but when it's just not a right fit, it just becomes a very miserable experience for us.

Oh yeah, and too often there's people that are, they show some competency in something even though they may not have the interest and the passion and they get promoted based on the competency.

That's right.

I want to get back to leadership as far as women are concerned too, because here's another thing. It's the same gap in leadership that we see. At the risk of causing trouble, I know someone's going to get aggravated by this, but the research is pretty clear on this, that, you know, a lot of times the difference is that men as general— and this, it's a cultural thing. I'm not saying this is something that can't change over time, and it has changed, has changed a great deal in my lifetime. But generally, you know, if you just look at the data, we see that men will, will in general— then you got to be careful not to be damned by generalizations, right? But we'll do— put in more time, are probably not as at least time committed to family obligations, right? Uh, right. We'll do things, and I'm sure this will come up at your workshops, it always does. We like to look at incidental or substantive differences. Now, I don't believe there are any substantive differences in most leadership positions. In fact, I can't think of an exception where it makes any damn difference whatsoever if you're male or female. In fact, I think in leadership that difference is even more incidental because, like you said, the skills that are relating to a job, well, those might sometimes relate to strength or other physical attributes. But geez, you can find a lot of exceptions to those. I've known in martial arts, right? We've known a lot of very powerful physical women, but those differences, how do you reconcile that in leadership? Do you think that there's still some substantive barrier there, or are you not seeing that? Did you see that in your career?

I think it's a legacy mental attribution, if I should say. Say, put it together like that.

OG's hanging on to the past, right?

This is the way that it's gonna be if we are, um, if we hire a woman for this position. Is she the age where she is childbearing, going to be thinking about getting married?

Right.

There's a lot less of that, I think, in our industry now, um, because women are just showing up. And I mean, we're showing up really powerfully. And I think the gender stereotypes— that's the word— the gender stereotypes are being broken because our leaders are moving more towards the open-minded mindset that we can do the front office work as well as the field work. And you just give us a chance, we'll run the whole show. That's changing a lot. From what I see, I have friends at NAWIC who are project managers, assistant project managers. They are some badass women and they make no apologies for it. But I will tell you that more and more we need to have that awareness in companies where the conversation comes up. I've seen a lot of big companies show up at these NAWIC, um, uh, national conferences, and they're addressing that gender diversity. They're addressing the fact that that is a stereotype issue and that judgment calls may be made, um, inadvertently and unjustly because a woman may be judged based on, you know, where she's at, you know, in, in her life. And I, I think that we're growing out of that I don't experience that. I mean, I work with major clients through Boyer Building Corp, like Wyndham, Marriott, and Disney, and there are other women at the table of all different ages. And it's, it's much more than 6 years ago when I first started at Boyer. So I think we're growing out of that, and, and I'm hoping that that continues to happen as as we advocate for each other, as we mentor each other, and as we, we get even more qualified to, to take that seat at the table.

I'm glad you're going that direction too, because part of the reason I wanted to open that can of worms is because I know that that's one of the big missions of NAWIC, you know, to make sure that, that, that the word gets out, not just, yeah, you know, internally to, to degree, to your membership and to women in general, but also to educate people on the outside because You know, it's so simple, isn't it? I mean, that's part of the barrier we try to break down in Sensei Leader Movement is that when you look at somebody, you look at an individual, it's about— it should be about qualifications, period. Right. And when I say qualifications, I want people to understand too, I'm not just talking about technical. I'm also talking about character, right, and things like that as well. But that's what I mean. Is the person able to do the job? What difference does it make, male, female, any of the other incidental differences we can talk about— race, gender, where somebody came from, what their religious practice is— provided that's not affecting the job, right?

Yep, exactly. And I show up, and as long as I am doing the job passionately with enthusiasm and I'm representing the company well, I think I'm hitting the criteria for any that any other employee would be needed, would need to do. So I agree 100%. It's, it, it has little to do with the set stereotypes that they've, you know, that we are not able to handle the hot and heavy work. But we're able to, we're able to make decisions just as quickly as a man, and sometimes with, you know, better with better results. You know, there's research out there that the, the Fortune 500 companies— I was reading about this last week— that have more women on their board are much more successful than other companies that don't, other Fortune 500 companies that don't. So you— there's, there's, there's definitely research that shows there's power in female presence. And construction is one of those industries where, because of the labor shortage, because it's, it's allowing us a lot more opportunity, but it's also helping us to, to show up in a, in a, in a much more powerful way because opportunities that were not available probably 10 years ago are being made available because a woman can definitely do the job.

No, I agree with you 100%. And it, broadens our perspective, right? That's, that's the big part of it. Um, that's why I don't like it when, when people try to push too much for homogenization, you know, to make men and women the same. There are differences and the differences should be respected and enjoyed, right?

And celebrated. Yep, exactly.

And exploited in the best possible way, you know, application of that term. You know, I probably said it when we were together, but I don't know if I didn't. I usually say, you know, diversity sucks and that gets people angry when I say that, but I say it really does. It's, it's not— our differences make us interesting. They can make us stronger, but not necessarily, right? It's our ability to get along and enjoy and respect and, like I said, in the best, most positive light, exploit each other's differences, right? That's how we become stronger, and we can't do that if we're going to be closed-minded or if we want everybody to be the same. That would be dull anyway, wouldn't it?

It would, and I'll tell you that from my experience being a NAWIC member, 6 years ago, I transitioned my career from working for an electrical subcontractor to the general contracting side of the business, and NAWIC was my connection to be able to do that seamlessly. And I'll tell you that you'll walk into any NAWIC meeting and you will be greeted by such a wide variety of— absolutely— there's construction attorneys, I mean, accountants, there's project managers, project engineers, VDC engineers, there, there are business owners and HR managers. I mean, there's such— our careers run the gamut, and it's just a great example of why NAWIC, because you get to rub shoulders with almost every type of career that is, you know, being done by a woman in the construction industry. It's so empowering to be in that room. You know, for any woman out there who's listening to this, you need to be a NAWIC member because It's a powerful experience, you know.

So I was joking with somebody at the last conference because I said, you guys should pay me a commission. I'm meeting women on planes and they tell me they're in construction. My first question is, are you a NEIEC member? And if they're not, I say, you need to, you need to join. I said, I'm a little biased, but it's one of the— you are really one of the most amazing organizations that we, that we work with.

Thank you.

And you know, it's such a positive spirit, positive energy, and it's You know, it's really terrific. It's really an honor to be associated with you. Hey, listen, as we wrap things up, this is something I'm always curious about. Now, you know, at your point in your career, I've gotten to know you just enough to know you're never quite satisfied, right?

That's right.

You've got big plans. So where do you want to take all this? And you can talk about that personally or with the network perspective, because I see you as someone who really wants to embrace more leadership challenges. So where do you see this going? Where do you see your life going in the next few years? Okay.

So this is probably going to take like another 20 minutes. I'm just kidding.

That's okay. We don't, this isn't broadcast. We don't have a hard break.

So I am, I am just really encouraged by the experience of being on the leadership level that I am at my NAEO chapter this year and growing exponentially in my leadership role at Boyer, which touches so many different, um, parts of what we do, from estimating all the way to business development, project management. Um, I think for me, the future really is, uh, I think I, I'd expend my life mentoring people, leading people, and really helping them to reach their fullest potential. What that shapes out to be, whether it shapes out that I become an an author or I, you know, a public speaker, whatever that shapes out to be. I know now that the word builder is really who I am. It's what I want to do for the rest of my life, building people, building people so that they see who they are, find their purpose, you know, pursue their passion and show up with some incredible incredible presence whenever the opportunity presents itself for them. I think that in its entirety explains where— what I want to be doing every single day.

Well, then I want you to be part of the Sensei Leader Movement. And you— this is a dream, this is a dream that I have to get more people like you involved. I mean, actually inside the organization and help us, help us spread this. Like I said, spread this gospel all over, you know, every place it needs to be, right? And to help and to support. Like, it's— we're singing in harmony because sometimes people confuse us with a traditional leadership training program, right? And we're not. We're here not just to preach, we're here to support and develop, you know, great leaders and human-centric leaders. And like I said, we do— I think we bring our best value when we're working with great people. And that's, you know, that's really where my passion is. So no, that's really cool that You know, let's get you in.

Well, I tell you that what's, what really is—

but no, we don't want your bosses listening to this though. Kizzy's not leaving. She's not leaving right now. Later. This is later.

I love that it centers around effective leadership through courage, compassion, and wisdom. I've loved those three words growing up. Wisdom has has just been such a key for me. And I, I really love that tagline, and I, I do feel like it's, it's very a natural, um, marriage, so to say. And I think it just marries really well with what we, what we want to accomplish really is that support, that courage, that empowerment. And it happens through the intentional through intentional leadership, through someone saying, how do I go out and make a difference in somebody's life? And I want to thank you and Alex for, for being two people who have really aligned with my vision this year. And you're coming to Orlando, and we cannot wait. It's gonna be— oh my God, it's gonna be awesome.

Well, I'm looking forward to it. We have a lot of good work to do together, I think, over— and I'm gonna Be bold and say over the next several years, because I think there's a lot of things on the horizon, and we really appreciate everything you do. And I'll tell you what, I want to be the first one to read your book. In fact, we'll help you get that published.

That's awesome. That is awesome.

I'm sure you've got a lot to share, and I think people would really, really benefit from hearing that. So hey, thanks a lot, and can we have you on the show again?

Oh, you definitely can. I look forward to it.

Okay, because we've got a lot more to talk about. I can, I can see that.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Kizzy, thanks for everything you do. And let's quickly tell people how to get in touch with you, especially if you want to promote NAWIC, and how, how anybody can get in touch with NAWIC, not just women who want to join the organization, although if you're not part of it, you should be. We'll say that again. But also any organization that would like to like to understand what NAWIC's trying to do and to get women more involved in construction. Because you know what, if you're running a company and you don't have women involved to the degree that you want to, you really need to because you're missing out on a great resource.

That's right, that's right. Anyone who's interested in becoming a new member, in new information, you can go over to our chapter website at www.nawicorlando.org. Or you can email me at nawic, nawicferrer, my last name, f-e-r-r-e-r, at gmail.com. And thank you again so much for allowing us the opportunity to talk to you.

And please mention Walking the Walk so we get our commission.

Thank you for walking the walk with us today.

There you go. Thank you, Kizzy.

You're welcome. Talk to you soon. Keynotes, workshops, retreats, webinars, and ongoing training. Each program customized to your unique needs, interests, goals, and budget. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. Learn more about Jim Bouchard and The Sensei Leader at thesenseileader.com.