042 Joe Calloway - The Leadership Mindset

Joe Callaway's resume is way too long to go into here. You know, he's traveled all over the world developing leaders from collegiate entrepreneurs to the C-suites of Fortune 500 companies. And he's the author of several highly influential books, including his latest, The Leadership Mindset. And that's what we're here to talk about in this episode of Walking the Walk. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk. Your host, The original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard. As I said, you know, Joe's resume is extensive and impressive. And in the spirit of full disclosure, he's also a dear friend and mentor to me and one of our most trusted advisors here at the Sensei Leader Movement. And I'll add, someone I would take a bullet for without reservation. And I sincerely believe he's one of our most important teachers in the art and science of leadership. And it's always an honor and pleasure to share him with you. So today we're talking about his new book, aptly titled The Leadership Mindset. So, Joe, just like the subtitle implies, how do successful leaders think? Big question.

It is. It's a huge question. Huge question. I'll tell you what, Jim, it's interesting. I've gotten to— and you know this from your work— one of the coolest things about this job is I get put in the path of these remarkable leaders who— it's funny, they bring me in to help them and I go away maybe having learned more than they did simply from watching the way they do what they do. And there's beyond leadership skills, there's— it's funny, I kind of think of it as the intersection of attitude and strategy.

Right.

And to me, that's mindset. It's, it's not just what you do. It's how you think. It's how you think about what your role as a leader is. It's how you think about your business. It's how you think about your employees and your responsibility to and with and for them. And so those are the things that kind of led me to write this book. And the book is a collection of, of things that I have learned over the years in working with really extraordinary leaders.

Isn't it, you know, interesting that you say that? Because when we look at businesses that are not succeeding or businesses that are in trouble, and this is such a fundamental thing to consider, oftentimes there isn't any thinking going on, right? They've just gotten into a chaotic mode where they're either responding to conditions with, like I said, without forethought or, you know, reacting without really considering the ultimate consequences. So, you know, as much as people like to equate thinking with the soft skills No, I can't understand that at all. I mean, I think it's the most essential thing that we can do.

Yeah, you're right. And you're, you're, you're dead on about companies that are struggling. And one thing that struggling companies and the leaders in those companies tend to have in common is exactly what you said. They tend to be very reactive. There's no clear sense. There's no clear sense of what truly matters most. You know, a word that has become one of my absolute favorite words, and I probably— I use it to the point that I think I've drive people crazy, but I like it because for me it's so useful, is the word intentional. Are you being intentional about fill in the blank, about how you define your role, about how you think about culture? I mean, really fill in the blank. And so I think the great leaders, one thing they have in common is they're very thoughtful and very intentional about everything that they do.

Yeah, you can't do that on screech mode. You know, I can't help equating so many of these things to my life as a fighter and as a martial artist. And I, I can remember being caught in a corner a couple of times, right, and just getting pounded on. And we are in that just kind of response mode, you know, just gut response. And you're not going to get out of trouble that way. And so I was blessed with so many good trainers, you know, they always said, then you got to slip out, you've got to take a couple steps back, right? Stop throwing the punches, take some steps back, take a breath. And analyze where you are and then move in again. But that's one of the biggest challenges. I know you probably face the same thing when we do our workshops, and I'm sure when you do yours. So many leaders, we talk about these things and they're all nodding their heads. They say, oh yeah, we need time for reflection, we need time for thought. But then when I ask them, you know, really, well, how much time do you spend on that? The most common answer is none.

Exactly. And it's interesting, it's funny, you think of your visual about being in the corner and getting beat up.

Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

Yeah, but, but it's funny in that it made me, made me go down a little train of thought. Sometimes when I talk about being intentional, somebody will say, and I always love it when they bring it up, they'll say, but wait a minute, what about spontaneity? What about—

that's important too, sure.

Here's the deal, you are infinitely more effective in the moment, and you can spontaneously create or take advantage of opportunity. But only— you're only good at that if it's coming from a solid foundation.

Exactly right. And you have to— have to be— you have to train. You have to be prepared to get in the ring. I mean, it's that simple.

Yeah. And you have to think. If you've got clarity— here's a lesson that I'm still learning, Jim Bouchard, but I'm I'm getting better at it, which is if you've got clarity on what is truly important and what matters most, then you get better at learning the difference between an opportunity and a distraction.

Amen.

Mm-hmm. And for me, that's an important lesson because, oh my gosh, I am— I am so in love with the next idea.

Yeah.

I mean, I'll have a great idea and I'll be working on the execution of it, and then all of a sudden, squirrel! Oh look, there's, there's a new bright shiny idea over there.

Oh man, as soon as you started talking about that, I can't help thinking about— I just talked about this guy so much, uh, Master Yong Zhuangming, who I was blessed to study with for several years, and I still think he's one of the greatest living philosophers we have, and his lessons apply to every aspect of life, not just martial arts. And, you know, he talked a lot about that. Uh, the Chinese would refer to it this way: there's monkey mind and horse mind, right? And the horse mind is like the rider in control, and the monkey mind chases all the bananas all over the place, right? But that— the thing is, that's the way we're wired, especially creative and energetic people. So it takes a lot of discipline to be focused and to let go of those distractions, doesn't it?

Well, and to find the balance, because the thing is I always want to be open to new opportunity and new ideas and to reassessing and rethinking my assumptions about the way I think it ought to be done, or certainly about the way it's always been done. But, but there's a balance between recognizing real opportunity and understanding when, you know, I could do that, but it's a distraction. One of the things that I talk often with when I'm working with a team of leaders is the trap of saying, and you know what else we could do?

Mm-hmm. But that's a popular thing to say.

Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes you can add value, but sometimes it's just, hey, well, if we're doing this, this, and this, ooh, you know what else we could do? And you're going down the road of distraction. So again, it's a balance, but I think it all goes back to that idea of having a solid foundation and clarity on what matters most.

You just hit so many key points. And one thing— this just came up, it's interesting, this just came up in a workshop the other day where, you know, and I know you're one of the leaders in the idea of disruption, and boy, do people confuse that term and use it improperly. But, you know, the idea that sometimes what can distract us— what's the best way to say it? Sometimes the ship is going on the right course. Now, we always have to be prepared for the future. We have to anticipate as much as we can the changes that are coming and keep our eyes and ears and hearts and minds open to all that. But sometimes the best course of action is to just keep steering the ship in the right direction, you know. And so, tell us a little bit about the differences you see between— well, like I said, I think a lot of people confuse disruption with the idea that they always have to be changing just for change's sake. And that, to me, seems to be a huge distraction these days.

That's absolute distraction. You know, I fundamentally believe that— here's my philosophy. I wrote a book. The title was Be the Best at What Matters Most.

Yes, you did. And that's one of the great books you can get at JoeCallaway.com. And I'm throwing that plug in there for you.

Well, you know, people say— thank you. People say, how many books have you written? And I say, I've written 8, and 2 or 3 of them are really good.

They're all really good.

Well, that's one of them. 2 or 3 of them are my favorites. That's one of them. But here's, here's what I believe, that if you know, there's not so much now, but a few years ago and for a few years, the whole thing, everybody was saying, well, you've just got to be different. That's all that matters is you have to be different. Well, wear a funny hat and boom, you're different. My philosophy is, and it's, it's my philosophy because it's what the marketplace teaches me. My philosophy is if you are better, that's the only difference that really counts. I read one time, I love this thought, buzzers and bells wear off, value never does. Now, how you create value is an always evolving and somewhat moving target because, oh my gosh, everything, technology changes, our competition changes. Gosh knows our customers change. And so being the best at what matters most doesn't at all mean, well, stop innovating or stop changing. To be the best at what matters most, you have to change. But there's something to be said for we're on a rock-solid course. Let's get better at it all the time. And at the same time, Jim, I always want to be aware of what could potentially put me out of business. And if there is something that could put me out of business, I want to be the one to do it, not somebody else.

Yeah, that's an— you brought up again a couple of interesting points. Before I lose this one, you know, this is Fortune Cookie we have kicking around martial arts all the time, that we should honor tradition but not be hung by it. You know, they were always prepared for that change, but then, you know, we take what's useful and build on it. Um, but then again, there's— geez, there's that thing about going— it's about spinning off on tangents, isn't it? And like you said, about, you know, people just chasing that, those shiny objects just for the sake of it. Um, well, how do you, how do you coach people into recognizing— I know there's process to it, probably more so than I get into. Um, you know, how do you sort it out and say, okay, this is the thing we really need to embrace as a change and this is the thing we probably ought to let go.

Well, I think you have to go back to— that's the reason that having a vision and a mission, although listen, I'm not one of those sticklers for, well, if you have a business, you have to have a vision statement, you have to have a mission statement. No, you don't. You can have whatever form of direction setter and compass that works for you.

Right.

For example, there's a company that I read about, I mean, 20 years ago. It was a brand new advertising agency started by 4 young people. Let me see if I can remember them. And instead of a vision or mission statement, they had 4 rules of business. Number 1 was do great work. Number 2, have fun. Number 3, make money. Number 4, and this is my favorite, Don't work with people you can't stand.

Hmm. I think that's a hugely important one.

Isn't that great?

Mm-hmm.

But the thing is, what that did for them was it helped make a lot of decisions in advance. It's like, well, should we work with this company? You know, we've had two meetings with them and they are the most uptight, rude, obnoxious people on the planet. And we've already decided we're not going to work with people we can't stand. So we're going to walk away from that money and say No, unless we want to change Rule 4.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And that's fine if you want to change your vision, your mission. But if you've got clarity on this is what this business or me, this is what I'm about, right? Because I've had things come over my desk or come over email and somebody says, Joe, here's a great opportunity. 'You would absolutely make money if you did this.' And sometimes my response has been, 'You're right, I would make money, but it's not what I want to do.' Yeah.

And at what cost in the long term, right? Yeah.

It would get me off course. And then they'd say, 'But you could make money.' Stop it. I know I could. That's not the point. The point is, that's not the direction I want to go. I just think it goes back to that fundamental. If you get clarity on your direction, Warren, one of my favorite quotes is by the, the multi-billionaire Warren Buffett, and he said the difference between successful people and extremely successful people is extremely successful people say no to almost everything. What he— and that sounds counterintuitive.

No, no, no. And he walks the walk. I mean, if anything, he does.

Yeah, he knows what to look at and say, nope, That's not what we do. Nope, that doesn't fit our goals or our plan. And that kind of disciplined thinking and intention can serve you incredibly well.

I like that you use the analogy of the compass too. And I can't remember exactly where I got this story from, but what's interesting about a compass, you know, of course you have to build on a strong foundation. And then I think these changes, rather than being catastrophic, or it's really more evolutionary, right? You're making little changes and adjustment. I think that's what, if I'm hearing you right and the other people that we're talking to about this disruption, it's really what we're talking about. But the idea of the compass, right, it's not— the compass doesn't keep you on course. You're constantly adjusting to terrain and conditions and changes. The compass helps you come back on course.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. So that's what— that's really the use of a vision or a mission. And I— God, I can't stand— especially when I have to say, and it's not to be— not to crap on anybody, but most of the organizations that I work with, they're so fixated on those mission and vision statements, do nothing with it other than make a poster.

Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. I could launch into a rant about posters. It's like when I talk to people about culture, I'll say, here's a culture in dysfunction or even in denial. It's when two people are walking down the hallway and they pass the poster that says our values and value number 3 is we treat each other and everyone else with absolute respect. And they look at each other and point down the hall and say, if that's true, how come she's still working here?

Right.

Right. In that kind of situation, that's worse than if you didn't have the poster up at all, because what you're claiming is a lie. And so, yeah, it's, it's about that. Yes. So many companies, you're right, they come up with a list, the vision, the mission, the vision, the mission, the culture. And they say, okay, good, we've got that done. "Done, now let's get back to work." Isn't it awful?

I mean, I want my vision and my mission statement walking around with a pair of sneakers. You know what I mean?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly. Those aren't projects that you finish. They are part, or should be part of who you are and what you do all day long, every day.

Exactly. Now, I wanna make sure we squeeze this in too because you have so many different avenues that you can work with. And I know, and this was really cool because for people who haven't heard you on our program before, you know, Joe has been one of the most in-demand speakers all over the world for years and years and years. And now if I understand right, your focus is on, you're really enjoying the workshops and you have a new program you just launched too, the Next Success. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that, how that can help people achieve the things we're talking about?

And you know what I'm trying to, as the old saying goes, I'm trying to eat my own cooking.

You say the coolest things from Tennessee, man.

Yeah, yeah, the Southerners, we got all these good—

You're much more poetic than us up here in Maine.

Yeah, I know, and the rest of the country's going, what the hell does that mean?

No, but see, we have Stephen King. I mean, we're a gloomy bunch up here.

Ah, funny. But yeah, what I'm doing is truly trying to say, what's the next value creation for me and also at the same time, what will keep me interested and keep me engaged. For years I've told people, don't get stuck doing something you're good at. Hmm. And yet I've been guilty of that because I go out and I give keynote speeches to huge audiences and it works and it works and it's making money. And then I realize I'm tired of it. I'm bored with it. So what's next? And what was next for me was getting into smaller audiences and more— and I know you're very much this way. You love interaction. And I just thrive on interaction with a small group. Well, quite frankly, Jim, I had to walk away from a really good source of income to start to develop the workshops. And now I'm moving into a whole new area, which is one-on-one coaching. And that's— it's scary stuff for me because I'm having to let go of something that's working. But my heart and my spirit is saying that, that I— and I think my skills have evolved to the point that this is where I create the greatest value now is in doing— and I still do the workshops. But I'm more and more and more devoting my time to developing this one-on-one coaching. And so it's no different than so many other businesses that simply evolve into the next way to deliver value to their customers.

Well, again, I'm going to put, you know, from the heart, from deep in the heart, I'm going to say if for any of you who are listening that, you know, Joe's worked with myself and with Alex for years now. You know, what I admire about you most in your coaching aspect is that you really listen. You know what I mean? You offered a lot of great ideas, but you also— and you continue it. I mean, it's not like it's over. You listen to what we have to say and you feedback very constructive, very honest, you know, assessments and opinions. And I think that's the most valuable thing, and that's what's rewarding. And a lot of coaches don't do that. They just You know, they may as well be out doing a lecture. Nothing wrong with keynotes. I like doing that too.

But oh yeah, right.

But that's more of a one-way delivery, right? Where the coaching— I think the most effective coaching is a real conversation. And that's what you do.

Yeah, it is. And thank you for those kind words. I don't take that lightly, Jim. And, you know, I could do an 8-hour marathon testimonial about you guys. And Larry, Larry and I reference you often as people that were willing to do the work. And a lot of times that's— here's another old saying.

Well, it's that, but it's also— and I've got to say this— it's also being accepting. And I am very proud of this, accepting of the advice that's coming in. And a lot of people that get into a coaching relationship don't do that. And I really advise— I mean, it's not worth Joe's time if you sign up for his coaching program and you're not willing to accept what he's going to offer you. You know what I mean? Because that, that sometimes it's just another perspective, but you have to have your heart and your mind and your ears and your eyes open.

And, you know, that's the core of the work I'm doing now. I started finding so many people that were successful. I mean, what they were doing was working for them. And yet they said, but I've got an itch. Something's telling me that I'm stuck on a page and I need to turn that page to see what the rest of the book is about. I need to, I need to move to my next thing, my next success. And you really nailed it with perspective. The key function that I serve with those coaching clients is I help them think it through and process it and then start to strategize and get to action steps. But I know for me, I love talking through what I'm thinking with, with you or with somebody else because it gives me a different way to process it. That's what I loved working with college entrepreneurs, right? Because what I did was I was a sounding board and I simply helped them think it through. And it was so much fun to watch the light bulbs go on and the breakthroughs. That was, that was a very rewarding experience.

You know, I didn't anticipate this going this way, but I have to ask you this question based on what you just said. You know, one of the most difficult things, one of the most difficult things for sensei in the martial arts sense to learn is that you've got to let the students make mistakes. You've got to let the students take their lumps. And that's, it's a fine line, right, between providing a safety net and making sure. And this hits at the heart of so many issues we have with leadership today, that there's a, you know, a huge deficiency in people's ability to be able to handle uncertainty. Right? There's a huge, uh, courage gap going on, and the only way to develop any comfort with uncertainty or any level of courage is to expose yourself to risk and danger and the possibility of failure. So how, how do you approach that? How do you recommend that, you know, how do you walk people through that? That— because again, you're very, very good at that. And it's—

well, two things. Number one is, and let's stick with the idea of a startup, uh, I will tell my clients that are that are working, that have a startup, I'll say, look, you need to look at this as being largely at this stage. This is an information gathering process. You've got an idea. You're going to take it to market. Let's get it out the door and put it out there. And then the market will give you feedback quickly. And sometimes that feedback is Nice try, but we're not interested.

I'd say that's on the nicer end of the scale sometimes, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it's— I have yet to work with a startup that started in one direction that didn't at some point, and usually fairly early on, significantly change that direction.

Not a successful one anyway, right?

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, when I'm working with a group of seasoned leaders, I'll say, and particularly if they're really good at what they do, I'll say, let me ask you a question. How many of you have tried ideas that didn't work? And of course, every hand in the room goes up. And then I'll say, how many of you fully intend to try more ideas that won't work? And if they're good, every hand in the room goes up. But the thing is, they are accepting of that process of you can think things to death. You can go to the coffee shop and you can draw it out and you can talk about it forever. At some point you have to ship it. You have to go to market and the market will give you information. You try stuff, you fail fast. You come up with a lot of ideas. You find out which ones are the bad ones and you move on from them as quickly as you can. But yeah, it's a— there's the CEO of a big bank that I've worked with for years, and he was asked in an interview not too long ago, how many of the things that you try succeed? This is a bank. Banks are careful and conservative, right, Jim? He said probably 50% of the things we try work and 50% don't work.

Wow. And I would say that's an amazingly high percentage.

Amazing. Well, he said, here's the thing. If 90% of the things that you try are working, then I question how big and meaningful and audacious your goals are.

Yeah, you're not— you're not trying.

If, if 90% of what you're trying is work— you're trying is working— you're not trying. You need to set— you need to raise the bar.

But that raises another interesting problem that's coming up a lot these days, you know, that And I think it's a product of the last maybe 20 years of— and I understand your response— this positive thinking movement, right? And it seems to be epidemic right now in leadership ranks, especially with the younger two generations coming up, that they've been trained so much to focus on all the positive possible outcomes that they're very hesitant to look at the negative. And I'm a strong believer in the yin and yang principle. You have to look at both and you have to anticipate, you know, as many disasters as you possibly can and prepare for them the best you can. You know, you want to hope for the best, sure, but you better damn well be prepared for the worst.

You know, it's— I deal with, admittedly, a particular slice of the population in terms of millennials because I work with a lot of millennial entrepreneurs, right? And millennials that are in leadership positions at smaller companies. And my experience with them is that they are one gutsy bunch of people. And here's the thing about the startup mindset is they look at failure as an absolute normal part of the process.

Right.

I tried this. It didn't work. Then we started that company. It didn't work. Then that led to that company. It didn't work. But then we finally hit on the right combination. So I don't know.

I don't know if it's locked generationally. That's probably not a fair statement, but it's also, it's interesting because like you said, you're working with those, especially young people in that entrepreneurial mindset, and that's something that I've seen all over the world now, right? If we can get more folks that have this entrepreneurial mindset to influence others, I think we'd be a lot better off, no?

I absolutely agree. And here's something that you hear all the time, or you see a lot, particularly in positive thinking circles, that drives me crazy. And I'm sure you've seen on social media some of the rants that I throw about it, and our friend Larry does too, which is people that say, if you just follow your passion, you're guaranteed to be successful.

Oh my God, you can't eat a bowl of passion.

What? Yeah. And it's true. Follow your passion and you'll be successful if number one, you're really good at it. Number two, there is a demand for it and people are willing to pay for it. But you blind posit— look, oh, I'm a positive thinker in the sense that I approach things with a sense of opportunity. And yeah, let's see what can happen. On the other hand, I don't blindly believe that if I think it's the best idea in the world and my family and friends have told me it's the best idea in the world, you got to ask Bob. I've learned, my friend, I've been in the corner and gotten beat up.

Yeah, yeah.

By the market on those ideas. So yeah, I think it's a balance. I really do think it's a balance.

Oh my God. You know, and I'm— believe me, I'm an advocate of passion. But here's the thing I learned as a fighter. You better damn well get passionate about pain and suffering. Yeah, you gotta enjoy it. You gotta enjoy it, especially as an entrepreneur.

And tell me this, as a fighter, and you damn well better be passionate about preparation.

Oh, that's, that's the whole thing, you know, that there's so many things we can't control, you know, that's it. The only things that we really, really have ultimate control over is training and preparation. What are we doing to make ourselves better? I don't know what the other guy did before he got in the ring. And that's just as applicable in business as it is in the boxing ring, right? That's the way it is. You don't know what the other guy's bringing to the fight, but you can, you can control what you're bringing to the fight and know you deserve to be there. That's optimism to me. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I love that. And I'll tell you, my attitude about my competition has always been— and it's in contrast to those people that say, well, our competition can't touch us. I mean, oh yeah, we're so good, we don't have any competition. And I say, holy moly. What's life like on that planet?

Right.

Well, you— my competition is excellent at what they do. Yeah, I have to work hard just to keep up, much less to pull ahead.

And that's where you develop respect and friendships, true friendships with competitors, right? And hey, you've seen my face up close and personal. You know, my competition has touched me a few times.

Exactly.

There it is, Joe. As always, we could talk all day, so we have to have you back again soon. I'm so glad to see the new book out, The Leadership Mindset. And let's tell people how to get, get in touch with you to get the book and how to get in touch with you for the Next Success Coaching Program and all the workshops you do.

And yeah, yeah, it's interesting. The Next Success Coaching Program is still in development. We don't even have it on the website yet, but—

well, you better get it there now.

Well, here's the deal. Go to the website, which is just my name, JoeCallaway.com, and look up towards the top of it over on the right, and you'll see a link to my email. So you can email me about the coaching and I'll email you stuff. And we're going to— we're about to redo the website. You can— the book is available and there's a link to it right on the home page. It's available through Amazon. We just simplified it and said that's where everybody can get this particular book, The Leadership Mindset. So we tried to make it as simple and easy as possible.

Well, there you go. And we're going to still— I've been promising this for months now. We're going to finish developing the resource section at thesenseileader.com so that you'll find Joe's books and Joe's programs there as well. And a lot of the other, the good folks that we work with. So There it is. So appreciate you being with us again.

You're a good friend and you're— I so admire what you guys do. We were talking about Compasses in a conversation not too long ago. Somebody was asking me about people that I had worked with and I mentioned you two. And the phrase I used for both of you is I said they are true north, meaning there's substance there and you run deep. And I appreciate you both more than you can know, my friend.

I can't tell you how much that means. That's humbling. I really appreciate that. Hang with us just a second after the show, Joe. We have a little business to finish up. And for the rest of folks listening, please make sure you keep tuning in to Walking the Walk and our other podcast that we just put up, One Step, which is a 10-minute— sometimes it's a rant, sometimes it's a focus on a particular leadership issue. And hopefully we come away from each of those with one discipline we can put to work today. Joe Callaway, as always, thanks for being with us. And you're one of my favorite people on the planet. So there you go.

Thank you, Jim.

All right. Keynotes, workshops, retreats, webinars, and ongoing training. Each program customized to your unique needs, interests, goals, and budget. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. Learn more about Jim Bouchard and The Sensei Leader at thesenseileader.com.