045 David Lee – Psychologically Safe Cultures Need Courageous Leaders

It takes genuine courage to expose your ideas to public scrutiny and criticism. And if you want to survive and thrive in today's business environment, well, ideas are no luxury. You need people willing to be creative and innovative at all levels. How can today's leader create an environment that encourages new ideas? And how do you deal with criticism, even ridicule, when new ideas are introduced? That's just part of what we'll talk about today with David Lee, founder of Human Nature at Work. Inspire, empower, and guide people to their very best. These are the people who are walking the walk. Your host, the original Sensei Leader, Jim Bouchard. Now in the spirit of full disclosure, David Lee was one of the early champions of the work that's now become the Sensei Leader movement. And he really embodies our ideals of human-centric leadership to a degree that really few people can match. As I said, he's the founder of Human Nature at Work. He's also a career coach at Heart at Work Associates. He's doing career counseling and outplacement there. And he's worked with organizations, presented at conferences all over the world— North America, Australia, all over the place. One of his key takeaways is this: every better business result you want requires having a better conversation. Well, today's conversation was inspired by an article David wrote for the Talent Management and HR website, and I'll quote: During a sales meeting, an eager young employee shared an idea. Two seasoned sales representatives looked at each other and snickered. "Many organizations, this would be business as usual. In those cultures, employees feel free to mock, ridicule, even poke fun at others with impunity. If challenged, they simply dismiss the challenge with 'I'm just kidding' and know that they can get away with that explanation." End of quote. Well, you know, we've all been there, right? As I've said, it takes courage to share ideas, and there's nothing more discouraging than to have someone laugh in our face. So David, what can we do about it? Do we just grow thicker skin, or can leaders really create a more encouraging environment?

Yeah, so first off, thanks for having me on.

Oh, it's an honor. Absolutely.

Thanks. So yeah, related to thicker skin, I think that's one of the biggest problems actually in most organizations is employees have to develop a thick skin to deal with the, again, like the mocking, the ridiculing, the sarcasm, right? All that. And when people develop a thick skin, it doesn't just help insulate them from meanness, but it also dampens down their passion, enthusiasm, their vitality. And I think that's one of the reasons why so often in many organizations, you think like you're on the cast for The Walking Dead. There isn't that vitality.

I know people say they're fearing the zombie apocalypse, and I say, look around. It's already happening in a lot of places, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's interesting. It's funny because this idea of courage, and we talk about that a lot at SLM, but it involves risk, doesn't it? I mean, really, courage is defined by risk. Without risk or danger, there isn't any courage, right? It's just business. It's just normalcy, I guess. I don't know what you want to call it. But still, at the same time, right, I agree with you 100%. Leaders, and I think Probably the best way to say this is leaders sometimes don't realize the impact of their words or reactions, right? A roll of an eye from a leader can really knock out the spirit of a lot of people, can't it?

Absolutely. In fact, it was interesting. I was just doing a program yesterday with a group of managers, and one of them was talking about how amazed they were at the difference in their team when they just did the simple thing of saying hello to team members each morning.. And they got feedback that when they hadn't been doing that, the team members were wondering, you know, is she angry at us? Is something going on, et cetera? So absolutely.

It's almost like a parent-child relationship in a lot of ways. You know, it's, it's interesting. We, we like to think, you know, we back to the subject of thicker skin. We all like to think we were pretty tough sometimes, but then, you know, these, these small gestures and I don't know, maybe you can riff on this a little bit because We've been talking a lot about the topic of inspiration, and I keep saying inspiration shouldn't be something that's grand all the time. It's little things. I can remember a coworker one time, I was having a really miserable time, he walked in the office, threw a copy of Zorba the Greek on my desk, and he said, "Read this, it'll change your life." And that's a moment that inspires me to this day, and that was, ah God, I don't even want to guess, 35 years ago? Geez, we're getting long in the tooth, aren't we? When did we meet, 102 years ago? I can't remember.

That's funny.

So, you know, that's it, isn't it? What are the little things? Because I know you focus on that so much. What are the little things that you teach people that they can do that really will lift people out of that and help them? It's weird. And we'll go back and forth as I'm sure this idea of safety is really— I got mixed feelings about that. I want you to convince me, you know, because like I said, I kind of crave the danger a little bit. You do too, to a degree, I know. But it's like that, right? How do you get people in that mode where especially leaders, like I said, where they're not knocking people down but still keeping the heat up a little bit. Is that the best way to say it?

Yeah. So here's how I think about it, that when I think about creating psychological safety or emotional safety, I think about what's in our circle of control since there are things that we can control and we can obviously influence how safe another person feels. But their emotional world is, as you know, is their responsibility. And so what I try to think about is what sorts of behaviors, responses, and ways of showing up on my part create an environment that a person feels as comfortable as possible to be honest, open, candid, and vulnerable. And I, For me, the dance or the conversation around courage and safety is this, that no matter how, quote, safe another person is, there are all kinds of things, especially in our personal lives, but also professionally, you know, things that maybe, you know, we don't feel super proud of, or we know we've got this flaw and it's uncomfortable for us to even face it. Or let's say in the workplace, we don't feel like we've got this strength and we know we need to develop it. And so, even if, let's say, our manager or spouse is really skilled at creating safety, it still takes courage to bring up those issues.

Nice.

And yeah, does it? Yeah. And so, one of the things— this is actually— and I love that you're sort of like posing the like, like creating a dialectic here because it's making me think of something else here is that you think about it, it's sort of, well, you think about your martial arts and fighting background that if you are like a trainer is grooming a boxer, they don't put them, a brand new boxer in with a world champ. They, they gradually increase the challenge level. And if a person is so not psychologically safe to deal with, then the other person probably isn't going to be courageous and face their fears. They're just going to keep quiet and, and, you know, live in their, their quiet little, you know, internal hell around asking for help, etc.

Now you're knocking it right out of the park there because that, that again, it perfectly embodies the metaphor that we use with sensei, right? That you want to bring people up, you know, to— you want to challenge them a little bit, and that's the skill of a good teacher or mentor, right? Challenge them just enough to bring them out, right? Bring that courage out, develop their confidence, develop their comfort with uncertainty, but not so much that you're discouraging them and ruining them or even hurting them, right? Because, you know, whether it's psychologically or physically, you can do a lot of damage to people Again, we talked about that imprint, a leader. And I believe at any level too. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're a shift manager at a fast food restaurant or you're the CEO of a corporation. There's people who trust in your leadership and your words have weight, right? Who you are becomes reality in their minds by what you say and how you say it. And that can really inspire people or it can really knock them out.

Absolutely. And that's That's a point that I think is so important for people to think about. And I'll speak from personal experience. So when I was a supervisor and also as a parent, it's easy if you just see yourself as you, so Jim or David or Sally, that when we're in positions of power, whether being a parent or like you said, a shift leader or really high positions of power, it's so easy to not be mindful of that, the effect that power has and the power differential on both our impact on others. And also for people who are really fascinated by this topic, I really recommend reading some of Robert Sutton's work. He's got a bunch of books and also some awesome blog posts. So he's a professor out of Stanford on the research on how power affects people's behavior and their level of empathy, sensitivity, emotional intelligence. And so no matter how, you know, kind or mindful we think we are, power brings some, uh, some real downside into increased carelessness and decreased empathy, which really takes vigilance to offset if we're going to create a relationship with others where they do feel safe to speak openly and candidly.

That segues perfectly to something I wanted to ask you about. I appreciate your insights on this. As I said before the program, we're doing a lot of work in the healthcare space. And they've been bringing up an interesting problem. We talk a lot about compassion. One of our strategies is tough yet compassionate. And what they've shared with me is this. Very good at expressing compassion externally to their patients, their constituents, right? But they have a very difficult time expressing compassion internally. And one of our guests, Dr. Samaha, very interesting that he— this is what he thought. He said, you know— and he was a physician as well as an administrator— and he said, I'm sitting with a patient and they have, they're dealing with an illness, dealing with an injury, or mom comes in with an injured child, right? So it's very easy to extend that compassion, that empathy to those people. You can really feel their pain. But then he said, in the middle of that environment, then someone walks by and says, hey, I need your signature on this piece of paperwork. The reaction isn't, oh sure, let me hear it. It's usually, what are you bothering me with that for, right?

Yes.

And so what are your thoughts on that? Is there a way that you found that you could reconcile to help people really connect with— I guess, right, there's that constant struggle. Is this really— is that a mundane thing, or is it really important to someone, and how do I feel that?

Yeah. Boy, interesting. So for me, it really goes back to really trying to practice mindfulness. To be aware of my feeling in that moment and my response. And one of the things that I try to do, especially I remember, here's something that might be helpful to listeners. I remember when my daughter was little and being a single parent and anybody listening who's been a single parent knows how challenging that can be. And I remember how there would be times I'd feel really irritated and I would want to snap, you know, snap back at her, my daughter, or I'm about to speak to her in a level that's not as respectful as I would speak to an adult. And because I could get away with it because I'm the big, you know, the big parent. And so one of the things I would do is, one, I would say, would I talk this way to an adult?. And then the other thing, which was even more powerful, is I would ask myself if my best friend and, and really like spiritual mentor Bonnie were in the room, would I talk this way to Jesse?

Right.

Mm-hmm. That would really rein, rein me in. And so that, that might be something helpful to people. I think of somebody they really admire and would you feel comfortable talking to this person with them watching you? In this way.

That takes some discipline.

Definitely. Believe me, it's very humbling. It's very humbling. And I'm glad you mentioned discipline because it really takes discipline.

No, that's a constant theme that we struggle with in workshops, right? In fact, that's what I've renamed kind of— I don't like the word takeaway so much anymore. I want people to leave the room with disciplines. And what I mean by that is something that they're actually going to do, things that they're able to do. Because I think a lot of times people set big goals, and that's all fine. It's kind of a compass. But, you know, what are you going to do today, right? What can you do today? What do you have the resources? But not to get off on a tangent, there's something you, you said that really triggered, you know, a good thought. And it's weird because the whole idea of safety— I have to do that, I have to make a disclaimer— part of my rankling is, you know, this idea of safety and the safe space, right, has really taken on really weird connotation. And that's not what we're talking about, is it? We're not talking about some place that's absolutely sterilized from any sort of risk and danger.

Not at all.

It's creating the positive environment. Now, inside of an organization, or especially like in a small department or division or small company, it becomes— and we hear this all the time, I know you hear this in your work— it becomes like a family. People say that. And here's the great irony, right? And it's the same thing in an actual family where we really create the atmosphere where we are in the best sense of the word, genuinely safe, is where sometimes our worst behavior manifests, isn't it? And it's that familiarity thing. Maybe it's because I feel safe and I trust you, then I let my guard down. I behave like you said with your daughter, right? There's that temptation to, phew, hopefully, well, with daughters, you might worry they might run away. But certainly employees will, right? And, uh, so there it is. So it's that— it's that there's a weird irony there, right, between the, the safe environment of a family and the people you trust, and then that, that damage you might do. But especially, I'm really intrigued by that idea of ridicule because that's one that people don't even think about, right? You bring up an idea, you're, you're testing it, and, you know, I snicker, or I roll— like I said, giggle a little bit, roll my eyes, the elbow to the person next to you, right? The little conversation under— what do you call it? You know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

So the other person can't hear. Side-by-side. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah.

So there you go. I don't know. What are your thoughts there? Can you help us out?

So a couple thoughts, and actually, I want to reach back to the safe space.

We could go off on that all day, right?

Yes, we definitely could. I just— I guess I would like to go on record as far as what my position is on that, because I'm— even though personally I'm a really sensitive individual and I really try to be super sensitive to other people, I think we're really doing people a disservice in the way we frame like, that triggered me. And it's so interesting. And I know, Jim, because of how steeped you are in personal development, when you hear really what I think of as very, um, advanced, evolved people. And, and when they talk about you are responsible for your emotional state and your growth in life is a big part of your growth is what do you do in that pause between stimulus and response. And, and not to be blaming external situations for our emotional reaction, to do the hard work, the incredibly lifetime— school's never out on this— hard work of challenging our self-talk, our antagonism, or in Tibetan Buddhism, they talk about shampa, that as Pema Chödrön says, like biting the hook when somebody says something snarky to you and you want to fight back. And so for me, when I talk about psychological safety, It isn't about fostering hothouse flower, non-resilient people. It's about being respectful. And as you were saying before we went on, human-friendly workplaces and human-friendly relationships. So, now what was your question again? I went back.

No, no, I'm glad you went off on that. That's really cool because that's it exactly. And now, you know, I, I knew we were singing in harmony on that. And science is— because they've had to accelerate the study of this, it's become such an acute issue in society and in the workplace, uh, and the science is behind us. If you sterilize that environment, you're not, you're not, uh, promoting good human development, you're not promoting innovation, you're not promoting creativity, you're stifling it. You're just making people afraid, right? And there's an interesting parallel I just read, uh, a psychologist got together with someone who studies allergies. And what they were investigating, of all things, was our response to the peanut allergies over the last 10 or so years, right? That our response to it was what? To sanitize the environment, to make sure kids weren't exposed. Well, what happened is it exponentially increased, right, the level, the amount of allergic reactions and the severity. And they found that we need a little bit of exposure. And the psychologist's point of view— and this was really interesting— it's the same thing with anything we're talking about in leadership behavior, right? It's about expo— and one of the things that we keep talking about is if you want people to be courageous, if you want people to be innovative, if you want people to be comfortable with uncertainty— and they certainly need to be these days, right? Because what the hell is certain, right? So the only way to do that is to expose them to it, not to protect them from it. Right. And I think that's what we're really coming at from different angles. I think that's really what we're saying, isn't it?

Yes. And actually what, what that brings up for me is one of my major focuses of my work and real passions is courageous conversation.

Right.

And, and just like working out, just like you with your martial arts and fighting, that the more we we do it and sort of titrate the scariness factor, you know, do it in moderate levels to build up strength, the greater our ability to have those important conversations. And as part of that, it's the hot— so it's— so I'll speak for me. So it's, it's working on my stuff, you know, my fear of, of, you know, what the— how the other person might respond, work on my aggression. So how do I bring up this issue in a non-aggressive yet still crystal clear way, work on my compassion so that we can have a conversation. And then all the other, how do you create that psychologically, emotionally safe environment? So to have courageous conversations, we need to have all those psychologically safe creating skills, or else the other person will simply attack back or close down and then nothing ever gets talked about, change doesn't happen, etc.

No, I agree with you 100%. And it may be, you know, you cover this in the article. I like the point you made about establishing no shaming ground rules, you know, because sometimes I believe with all my heart and soul, and the more I get into this, the more I believe it, is that one of the most important roles of a leader is to simplify the complex. Sometimes we get addicted to this complexity, especially in a large organization, and we're just drowning in the process, right? And we have to come back to the simplicity of our human interactions. And you have some very simple rules here. Do you want to go over some of these? I'm kind of putting you on the spot because I don't know if you have the article in front of you.

Sure. Actually, I do. Let me just quickly call it up.

So while you're doing that, I'll start you off on this one. No mocking, ridiculing, or put-downs. That's so simple. That's so simple. How are organizations embracing that? How are you helping them embrace that principle? Because I think that one right there, that would solve a lot of the problems.

Absolutely. And so, yeah, so the types of things, the types of ways of relating that teenage boys, the way they relate, and some men never grow out of that. And I get it that some people genuinely like that and that's how they bond.

Right.

Even if it's a team where that's how they bond, when it's bringing up important issues and vulnerabilities, that's not the time. That's not the time to be doing it. So I think in general, and I, and there's part of me that the like anti-PC part of me, part of that. I don't want to be, oh my God, I'm going to be like the behavior police. And I'm not trying to come across in that way. It's just back to making the complex simple. It's just sort of simple to me, hopefully common sense ways of like, can we agree on this? So another is no jokes at others' expense. Right.

And then That one really takes it to the next level, doesn't it? Because the first one, and that goes back to that question I asked you about, you know, familiarity, because when we're in an environment where we're very familiar, comfortable, when we feel safe, for instance, with people we know quite well, that is when we'll mock and joke. And I think so often, and I'm guilty of it myself, I have to really pay attention to the other person's reaction and I have to pay attention to the context, right?

Yes.

Where are we doing this? And someone in a workshop not too long ago said this, and it wasn't necessarily about ridiculing other people, but the way she said it, she said there's certain things, there's certain protocols that happen in a business meeting, right? And you have to honor those. This is a business meeting. We're not, I think she said, we're in a business meeting, we're not sitting around the frat house.

Right.

And I thought that was a kind of a cool way to say it. It was one thing if you're at a cocktail party, there's another thing when you're you know, in a brainstorming session. And then you brought it to that next level, no jokes at others' expense. That one, I think, you know, we all cross that line from time to time without knowing about it. But that, boy, that's a really, I think that's a really helpful compass right there.

Oh, cool. Thank you. I think the third one there with the no shaming is maybe even more nuanced and really important. Anybody who's experienced this knows how idea crushing and creativity crushing is. So let's say there's a brainstorming meeting. When disagreeing, so focus on what's wrong with the idea or more, I could have written this better now as I look at it. Focus on—

We all do that, right? I know it, yeah.

Focus on what you disagree about the idea and not what's allegedly wrong with the person with the idea.

Oh man, you are opening a can of worms there, aren't you?

Yeah. Yeah, because you think about it. When you've had like brainstorming or even like debating idea and the person goes, the other person goes beyond questioning the validity of your idea and you get either they directly or just tone of voice, the message is, I have some real concerns about your intelligence, the fact that you just said that.

Right, right.

And especially if that's your boss or your boss's boss, you're like, okay, note to self, don't share anything unless you're totally sure it makes 100%, you know, sense and is fully defendable.

It's a cliché, but that's where people pull back and say, well, I'm not going to rock the boat. But this one, and you know what, we're getting towards the end, so I don't want to really rip this issue open, but we could do, I'm sure we could do a program just on this point because that, and I don't know, tell me if you're seeing this, I'm seeing this more in organizations where in this really, really weird political environment we're in right now. You know, when you're— when you disagree with somebody and you hang your hat on some sort of, of identity, right? And sometimes it's just someone's political beliefs, might be their religion, uh, might be where they, you know, their ethnic background or where they come from. But this— there's this weird, uh, emphasis, I guess, on identity now. So you and I, you know, we might bring up an idea, oh, that's, you Dave the fill-in-the-blank, right? I don't want to expose anybody's political identity to scrutiny, but you know what I'm saying? And that one's become huge, you know, or you're a Republican or you're a Democrat, and that stops. So you're not dealing with the idea that's on the table. And my God, isn't that really what's happening in Congress right now? I mean, sometimes they ultimately propose the same ideas, but you know, this time it's my idea, it's not your, you know, uh, yeah, if it's your idea, I'm going to oppose it. If it's my idea, I'm going to push it. In fact, I heard I heard a political leader say that exactly the other day, and it almost made me sick to my stomach. He said, "We have to promote it. We have to promote our idea, not theirs every time." And that's just the climate we're in. But we see that in the workplace for whatever, and there's lots of different identity tags that could cause that conflict, right?

Well, actually, you're bringing that up, makes you want to mention the the third point in the article that also speaks toward the whole societal issue that you're bringing up. And so the third one is foster a culture of curiosity and inquiry versus advocacy. And so you think about whether it's politics, social issues, et cetera, whenever you either witness people on TV debating it or you're at parties or holiday dinners with extended family. No, you know, the worst of all, right?

That's the worst thing. Congress.

No. Nobody really is listening or curious about the other person. It's all advocacy. And I remember, man, Jim, this is like 25 years ago now.

God, we're older than dirt, aren't we?

A Peter Senge, author of The Fifth Discipline, keynote that he gave. I still have the cassette tape, but It's a little harder to play these days.

Right.

And so, anybody who— he's a little bit of a blast from the past now, but he's one of the founders of the concept of the learning organization. How do you foster a culture where people are constantly learning and growing and evolving? And one of the things that he said that, man, back when I heard it back then, I'm thinking, "We're in big trouble," and now even more so. He said, So the Greeks, the origin of the word dialogue is dialogos, if I remember correctly. And he said the Greeks had this saying that the society that has lost its capacity for dialogue has lost its capacity for self-rule.

Amen.

Yeah.

Amen. Right.

Yeah. And so here's the thing. It's so easy for, and I've caught myself doing this, so easy for us to, you know, wail about what's happening on a national and international level where people can't get along, they can't, you know, communicate, understand each other, et cetera. Let's dial it back to our day-to-day interactions. You know, with that coworker that's from a different department, has different goals and agenda, and they seem to conflict with ours. Are we only, trying to advocate for our position, or are we truly— another blast from the past, Stephen Covey— seeking first to understand? What about in our personal life? Like, I catch myself all the time. I'm trying to get my point of view across. Like, no, stop. Really try to understand theirs.

No, I couldn't agree more. And it's, in fact, it's interesting. You triggered, in a positive way, a good thought that, you know, so often we forget We do, we get caught up, especially with the access to media now, we get so caught up in big global issues that we sometimes forget. It's famously, right, people say that art reflects the culture, right? More than the art inspires the culture, right? Art is reflective of the culture, and I think it's the same thing. These great issues, they're reflective of our small behaviors, right? They're all the collection of all our small behaviors amplified. That's what we see on the global stage. So I couldn't agree with you more. We can really make a difference. And here's where at the heart of, you know, what we're talking about at Sensei Leader Movement is that we are leaders at all levels. We can lead or we can refuse. That's a simple choice we all make. I really believe there are only two types of people in the world right now: leaders and those who refuse. And leadership has nothing to do with authority. It has to do with these little things we're doing every day, the interactions we have, the impact we make. Which gets amplified, right? I know you're such an advocate of the Asian philosophies, right? It's the idea of that pebble in the pond, right?

Yes.

And the ripples that it makes. And that's what it's all about. So no, I think you put that beautifully. I want to wrap it up with one that really, really struck me. And again, one that again validates how much you embody what we're talking about here. In fact, the name of the show, Walking the Walk, right? And you end with modeling the behavior. So many times leaders wonder, why can't I get these people Do as I say, not as I do doesn't work with kids, and I don't think it works in the workplace. We have to walk the walk, don't we?

Yes. And that's where I personally love the practice of being courageous in terms of sharing vulnerabilities as the sort of like the unsung hero of courageous conversations. Because I think oftentimes when people hear that term, they think about like telling off somebody, right? You know, speaking up and speaking my truth, which is all super important. There's this whole other piece, which is being willing to be vulnerable, fallible, you know, express your fallibility, your concerns, et cetera. And there is actually, in thinking about our conversation, I flashed onto, I love this saying. I watched an interview with Laird Hamilton, who is like the big wave surf god. And his wife, Gabrielle Reece, Gabby Reece, who was a former Olympic volleyball— Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. And so I loved it. The, the interviewer, and I think it was Tim Ferriss now that I think about it, said, what would you tell your 25-year-old self? And Gabby said, go first.

Mm.

Yes. And so if you want your— whether it's your family members or your team or your CEO, your employees, all your employees. If you want people to honestly admit when they make a mistake, demonstrate that. Go first. If you want people to be sensitive to other people's feelings and check in on how they impacted them, go first. Model that. So, to be thinking back to mindfulness, to be mindful of opportunities to role model. And I guess, and I guess maybe that's the last thing I want to say is that one of the things that helps me when I, when I'm sort of like sucking it up and getting ready to have a courageous conversation is even if I am having a hard time getting to the place of having positive feelings toward the other person, or even let's say I'm not even able to get to a whole lot of compassion, what I can pull out sort of as like last ditch effort is to remember or just like you talked about before, we're all leaders. We can choose to be leaders if we lead by example. And so I think about if I role model bringing up this difficult issue in a courageous, respectful, thoughtful way, at the very least, this other person can see, "Hey, you can do this. You can bring this up and not be snarky, not try to punish the person later by getting back at them with sarcasm." sarcastic digs, etc., you can actually bring up stuff that's really hard to bring up. And so, that's something that each of us can choose. We can choose to go first and role model.

And you're right. That's a perfect place to wrap it up. That's a great final thought for today. David, thank you so much for all your insights. I really— I found them tremendously valuable, and I'm sure everyone listening will. Please share the program if you're listening. You know, what David has to say, you know, can find resonance in places you might not ever imagine. So just share it, and that's how things get— those are the ripples in the pond. So before we finally close out, Dave, why don't you tell people how to get in touch with you? Talk about your services again real quick and how—

Oh, sure. Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah. So if you're interested in the Courageous Conversations, peace and communication in the workplace, humannatureatwork.com. And then if you're interested in career change, career work, hardatworkassociates.com.

And I'm going to encourage you seriously to reach out. I've seen David speak many, many times. He's been a huge influence on our work and on my life, and I'm very, very grateful. I'm sad that we haven't been connected too much. Life gets away from us. We have to change that. And, uh, but know that you've always been such a tremendous influence on me, David, and I really appreciate you being in my life. And, uh, and there we go.

So Thank you.

Well, until next time, we've got some great guests coming up for you. Please tune in. And as I said, share the episode, subscribe if you like it, and we'll make sure we bring you a lot of great guests like David. Thanks so much for being with us today.

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