057 Chip Lutz - Unconventional Leadership

In just a few seconds, we're going to share another amazing leader with you. But before we get started, I want to invite you to join the Sensei Leader Movement. I founded this global community to support and develop human-centric leaders, leaders who care, leaders like you. Our first-level membership is free and always will be. You'll have access to online workshops, special members-only events, preferred rates on coaching, and a lot more. And if you join today, you'll get free downloads of all 3 books in my 8 Strategies for Leaders series. You know, the best leaders always want to improve, and we're here to help. Go to slmjoinfree.com and join the movement today. One of my favorite things about podcasting is when a podcast guest has an exchange with me. And I met Chip when I was a guest on his podcast, one of my absolute favorites, by the way. Leadership Happy Hour. Today we're talking with a very unconventional leader, Chip Lutz.

People who inspire, empower, and guide us to our very best. Leaders who are walking the walk. Your host, leadership activist, author, and founder of the Sensei Leader Movement, Jim Bouchard.

Lieutenant Commander Chip Lutz is the president and founder of Unconventional Leader. He's a retired Navy officer. He served 2 command tours and was also director of security for Naval District Washington, D.C. during the 9/11 attacks. He's currently the adjunct faculty for 2 different universities where he's taught over 20 different classes in leadership management, human resource development, and organizational behavior. Boy, am I feeling lame right now. As if that isn't impressive enough, he's the author of 4 books, been published in Security Management Magazine, and he's had numerous articles on teamwork and leadership published in Zig Ziglar's weekly newsletter. And as you know, what's most important to me around here is that Chip is a genuine sensei leader and a terrific human being. How about that, Chip?

Well, thank you. That makes me sound a whole lot cooler than I really am.

No, you're pretty cool.

All right, I'll go with that.

Hey, you know what? I really wanted to start it off because, and again, it's funny because I did another interview on the same subject, but while we're recording this, the coronavirus thing is really hitting. And I don't think it matters if you're listening during, when this is going on or later on, but because you managed, you led through some pretty intense, well, what's more intense than 9/11? And so how the hell do you manage through a crisis like this or how do you keep people calm? 'Cause I don't think people are very calm right now.

Well, it reminds me of like the hysteria that's going on right now reminds me at the end of the movie Animal House. I don't know if you remember that movie or not, but the end, Kevin Bacon, As a young, you know, everything, you know, all hell's going, you know, everything's going to hell in a handbasket and he's just standing there, remain calm, remain calm, and then he gets run over.

I think we'll cut that in here, that'll be good.

But it just, you know, that's what it kind of reminds me of, that, you know, in the whole, what I consider the Chicken Little syndrome, you know, let's go tell Foxy Loxy, let's go tell Ducky Lucky the sky is falling, is that it's, Through anything, it's really important to kind of like sit back, take a breath, and kind of like really think through what's going on.

What's real?

What's not real? What can you do to manage the real and perceived risks? How do you keep other people calm? I mean, the more calm as a leader you are, the more calm people are gonna be around you. Those are some of the, from my perspective, With thinking about the whole coronavirus, it's just, I think I have more of a chance of getting run over by a pack of alligators than I do—

Well, you're getting hit by lightning.

Exactly, than I do having to go through this. But you know, things are what they are and people take things a certain way, but I think it's up to leadership to kind of like set the tone, set the pace on what's, what's real and what do you really need to do. Don't suck into the hysteria. Do things you need to do, stay the course, and you'll be fine.

How important is transparency to that? Because I'm sure during 9/11, there's probably a lot of things that you had to keep close to the vest. But on the other hand is that when people don't know what's going on or they don't think their leaders are really giving them all the information they need, that's really where that panic can start to fester, no?

Right, well, in some regards, I mean, transparency, like I think there's a big difference between authenticity and transparency. A lot of times people lump those together. Authenticity, I mean, I am who I am and I do what I say I'm gonna do. Transparency, sometimes it really requires context, that if you're at one place and somebody else is another place, they don't know what you know, and they don't have the view that you have. And so sometimes sharing everything that you know might cause a little bit of panic.

Sure.

Because they don't have the context that you have. And so it's important that if people don't have the context, share what you know, what you can with other people, provided they have the same context. But if they don't have that context, either explain the perspective, the context, or keep it to yourself.

That's what I was gonna say. It has a lot to do with the framing, doesn't it? I mean, and so—

Exactly.

So many times people come out, especially when it's something like an illness or something, they roll out the data, they come out with the data and the facts and the figures. And sometimes it's a little better to have a good storyteller around, isn't it?

It absolutely is. I think that's one byproduct. I mean, I love a lot of things about the social world that we live in, that I can pop on LinkedIn and see that Jim's on there. Spreading the good news on leadership all the time. On the other end, I think that it can cause a lot of mass, uh, a lot of misinformation with people.

You think?

Where, yeah, they get a little bit here and that too. Like in the Navy, we had people that were called sea lawyers, and they had, they had a little bit of information, but they, they touted it like it was fact. And, you know, if you had a question like, what about this? Oh, this is what you need to do here. But that person heard it from another person who had another person they heard from another person, so it was diluted like, you know, sixfold, and it wasn't even great information. I think that's what happens a lot, that we repeat a lot of things as fact, but they're really not fact or fact-checked. And so a little discernment is always wise.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, right? A friend of mine just posted up this great meme, and it went something like, Now all my Facebook friends are virulent physicians, blah, blah, you know, whatever the hell the term is for that. Last week they were constitutional scholars, right?

Yeah, exactly, I saw that one too, that's funny.

Yeah, boy, am I missing the right word for that. That's what happens when you get hit in the head so many times. And you know I'm not joking, right?

Yeah, I know you're not joking, that's funny, that's funny.

There you go, there you go. In the military, that's interesting too, 'cause the perception sometimes of military leadership is that, Things are behind closed doors a lot, but the more that I got to know and respect it, I think I told you this before, one of my greatest regrets is that I had never served and I was too busy messing up my life at the time, but I just don't see it that way. I don't see military leaders as that. I think they display some degree of reasonable discretion. Is that a better way to say it? I don't know.

I think so. And one, let me say that everybody serves in some capacity. I just served in the military. Everybody serves in some capacity for the betterment of—

well, I appreciate you saying that, but at the time I'm talking about, my service was like in the Grey Bars Motel.

But well, you know, philosophically, lessons learned, right? Yeah, philosophically, that— I mean, like, we all go through different things that mold us into the people we are, that make us better to serve other people. I mean, that's how I look at it. It's like, well, if I hadn't gone through so Yeah, if I hadn't gone through, you know, different things in my life, I certainly wouldn't be in a place now where I could, you know, help other people. And I know that I've got other trials and things that I need to go through, but that's just life, right? But going back to your thing on with the military, um, I— that's where I think is really interesting as far as people's view of the military. I don't know if it's been jaded by a lot of World War II and Vietnam movies like that, you know, they think this is the way it is. But I mean, some of the most progressive leaders I've ever known were in the military. People that were on the tip of the spear of really thinking, you know, progressively, were really, really great communicators. I mean, they were taskmasters, they were very tactical, very tactical, but also very strategic in how they did things. And, you know, those were the people that I learned the most from in the military, that it wasn't even really closed doors. Like, they knew if, you know, You knew what they knew when they knew something, and that was just it. And that's if you had the context, you got it. If not, usually they would explain it to you. If you didn't get it, well, you were kind of running around in circles for a while, and it was never an issue to ask questions as far as, "Hey, I don't really get this." And so I remember like when I was in DC, I used to have to brief the Admiral and this whole executive steering committee of like people that were way senior to me. And the Admiral would say like, we should do this here. And we'd get back to our office and the Director of Public Safety who I worked for was a retired naval officer. And he's like, well, I think we need to do this. I said, you know, I just don't think that's what the Admiral meant. He's like, really? I'm like, I just don't think that. He goes, well, he really likes you, Chip. Why don't you just like pop down there and ask him? So, you know, I would go down there and I would ask him. I was like, you know, sir, hey, You said this, but this is what I think here, what you really meant. Is that right? Because, you know, I wanna make sure we're not wasting time and money. He's like, oh yeah. He's like, you know, don't go down this path, go down the path you're just, you know, talking. And that, you know, it was never an issue to ask those clarifying questions because in the end, it saved time, it saved money, it made us a little more efficient.

Saved lives sometimes, yeah.

Yeah, those were most of the leaders I worked for in the military. I mean, there were a few a-holes that, well, That's like, just do what I say to do. But they were few and far between.

You know, I'm so glad you brought that up too, because we gotta have you on one of our communications webinars, because that idea of the process, and we call it the communication flow, right? Where you ask for clarification if you're not sure, you know, you feed off the response back and forth. You know, I think one of the greatest lies about communication is that it's two-way. You know, it's not, it's a cycle, and there's lots of pieces to it. But the other, I don't want to lose sight of this either. This is something I've been dying to ask you about because the military leaders that I've met by and large are not command and control type of leaders as most people think about it. Sure, there's times when you have to issue a command, there's times when orders have to be delivered, and there's times when orders have to be obeyed. But I've learned through experience too that we're not going to follow the orders of somebody we don't trust and respect. You know, we'll find a way around that. But I found that military leaders, and getting to know you and getting to know your philosophy, you're a perfect example of it. The military leaders I've met are the most compassionate leaders I think I've ever met, especially because you're dealing, you know, so often with life and death situations and you care deeply about the people that you're serving with. Right.

Well, I mean, within the military, it's not a job, it's a way of life. And everybody that serves has subscribed to that way of life. And so, you know, in some ways we're kind of all in it together, in my opinion. I mean, that was always my philosophy is that we're all trying to get someplace, but we're all gonna get there together. I surely don't know everything. I've always maintained that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, so I need people around me that are smarter.

Geez, I've been telling people you know everything. You're screwing me all up.

People that will tell me if an idea is stupid. I mean, I'm like most people. I think most ideas that I have are like manna from heaven. Oh, that's a great idea. We should just do this. And then it's just like, well, this really won't work here. I'm like, hmm, I really hadn't thought about that. And those were a lot of the people that I worked with in the military. Military as well. That's, you know, we were all just trying to make mission, get things done, and we were all going to get things, you know, done together.

Right.

And like you said, there was a time for command and control where, you know, we were on a time crunch, we don't really have time to ask questions. Let's just get this done. Let's get it done. Let's get it done the best of our ability and we'll call it a day. Yeah. And because there's some variables that you just don't know and you just have to step out in possibility and see if it works. If it works, great. If not, we'll rework it as quickly as possible.

No, I agree with you so much. I just think that it depends on that contract, right? I mean, one of the things I've been trying to work through lately in workshops is this idea that, you know, you've heard my definition between manager and leader, you know, and same thing, you know, anybody can give you a rank and some people earn rank in the military as well as in private business for the wrong reasons. You know, either they know the right people, they're politically savvy, you know, whatever the case may be. But you need to— you only become a leader because you earn the trust and respect and the loyalty of the people you're serving. And if you don't have that capital, man, that command and control breaks down quickly, no?

Oh, absolutely. That's— it's really about the investments that you— what I call the leadership tithe. You know, sharing that, you know, 10% of yourself with people each and every day. And you know, that, you know, the policies and plans fade away, but really what really remains is a legacy is that investment you make in other people. That's what I— consider a leadership tithe. That I'm sharing a piece of myself, my experience, my stories, you know, a little bit of some laughter, you know, shared experiences like that, that they know me as a person. I'm a human being, not just the boss, the leader. And those are the things that when they said like things, things go bad very, very quick, that people know that, you know, you're doing your absolute best because, you know, you've worked alongside them along the way. I always think about the— I don't know if you've seen the movie, from a military perspective, movie U-571. In the movie, you know, Matthew McConaughey becomes the captain of the U-boat, right? And he's like, everything's going, you know, to hell in a handbasket, right?

I guess, yeah.

And, you know, somebody asked him what to do. He's like, I don't know. And Harvey Keitel, the chief of the boat, And he pulls him aside like, well, you're the commanding officer. You know even when you don't know. That, you know, he had made some of those investments along the way, you know, with people, but, you know, he still, when things, you know, and it's good to have that relationship, but there's always so, I don't wanna say a line, but you still need to let people know that when nobody knows what to do, you still, you know, step up and have some kind of plan. It might not be the best plan. It might not be your A plan if you had time to think about it, but you've got some kind of plan. People know, they feel safe that you're gonna help them maintain the course and get things done.

Well, sometimes you're the only one with any kind of plan, but let's pick that up after the break. That's a really interesting line. So we're with Chip Lutz, amazing person, amazing leader, amazing friend. So we'll be right back after a couple of messages here. The research is bombproof. People perform at their best when, and only when, they know their leaders care, when they know their work has meaning, and when they have the chance to learn, grow, and develop. To accomplish this, we need to connect with the people we serve, the people who trust in our leadership. Leaders today need emotional intelligence, strong interpersonal skills, and an accurate sense of self-awareness. I'm Jim Bouchard, leadership activist and founder of the Sensei Leader Movement. The sensei enjoys a very special relationship with students. It's one built on respect, trust, and loyalty, and these are also a leader's most valuable assets. I help you build these relationships. I work with you to help you inspire, empower, and guide your people to their very best. That's what the best leaders do, and that's what the sensei does. My job is to help help you be the sensei so you can lead your people to their very best and yours. Executive coaching, workshops, corporate training.

Visit thesenseileader.com or call 207-751-4317 today to learn more.

Lieutenant Commander Chip Lutz is the president and founder of Unconventional Leader. He's a retired Navy officer. Chip served 2 command tours and also served as the director of security for Naval District Washington, D.C. During the 9/11 attacks. In that capacity, he was responsible for the safety and security of 25,000 people on 6 different naval installations in the National Capital Region. You know, a seasoned educator and trainer, he's currently adjunct faculty for 2 different universities where he's taught over 20 different classes in leadership, management, human resource development, and organizational behavior. He's the author of 4 books. He's been published in Security Management Magazine and he's had numerous articles on teamwork and leadership published in Zig Ziglar's weekly newsletter. Well, I met Chip when I was a guest on one of my absolute favorite leadership podcasts, his world-famous Leadership Happy Hour. This is where Chip mixes today's most important leadership topics with some adult beverages. Learn more about Chip and his work at unconventionalleader.com, and make sure you check out Leadership Happy Hour. Chip, I want to pick up what you were just talking about. You know, why is it so hard? Why is it so hard sometimes for leaders to act the way you just described? I mean, and we see that, you know, I'm sure you see that in your workshops. I see it every time we do workshops with executives. There's people that say, you know, I don't want to show any vulnerability. I don't want to get to know people as human beings, you know, and I know we're singing in harmony. I mean, how can you lead effectively without doing that? Why do you, in your experience, why do you think it's so hard for people to do that?

Well, being vulnerable is a risk. That's when you show that you're human, it's a risk. And, you know, there's fear, you know, within that. You know, what if they know that? Because I don't want to say like there's an imposter syndrome. I mean, like I talked about when I was briefing the Admiral and the Executive Steering Committee, all these senior people. I mean, 9 times out of 10 when I brief them, I expected somebody to stand up like, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, blah, blah, blah. You know, because it's like, you know, because, you know, a lot of times we don't always know. You know, what's going on, and that's— when you tell people that, you think that it's going to break their confidence in you, and I don't really think that's the case. I think that the more you show your humanness, the more you show your humility, the more people allow for those times when you do make mistakes. I mean, I like to think of it as that, you know, being humble allows a fumble. That if I'm being really authentic with my people and they know that I don't really— I don't always know what's going on, but I'm always working for my core values, always have their best interests heart, even if I make a bad decision, they know because the communication is there. That's an obvious, but I'm living my core values that I didn't do it out of malice. I didn't do it out of spite. And they'll usually allow for that. And it's a good question thinking about why people don't do that more. But I think a big part of it is the fear factor on thinking that you're going to lose control and they're going to realize that you don't know everything.

He does. I think the control plays a huge part in it, you know, in that sense of, you know, a territorial response almost sometimes, you know, but you hit the nail right on the head. We're still singing in harmony because one of our key strategies, and people question the language, and, you know, over time these things evolved, and I chose this language very carefully. You know, one of the strategies we talk about is be confident yet humble, lead by example. You know what I mean? And I think those two have to go together. If we don't have genuine humility, we don't have genuine confidence.

Oh no, I agree with that. Does that make sense? Oh, it makes absolute sense. That's, I'll go back to what I said is that, like as a leader, I don't always know what to do. In a crisis, I have to step up and take control and, you know, so people feel safe. But when it's not like that, then I need the full brainpower of people around me.

No, exactly, exactly right. It's, we're, we're better. There's just a scientific report that came out, I think a year or two ago. And it was interesting because, you know, we're always comparing ourselves to chimpanzees, right? Our close cousins and what they—

not something I've done in the last week, but maybe, maybe my wife would, maybe my wife would, but I don't know.

But anyway, the whole thing came out that, um, They actually, one by one, they're better thinkers than we are. And the researchers were puzzled by that. They said, you take a chimpanzee versus a human being and they're better problem solvers, all this stuff. But we think better in groups and we think better collectively. And they think that gave us kind of an evolutionary advantage. I should say, I should qualify, some groups. Right?

Well, I mean, that's true because you think about the whole like what's going on now, like we were talking about before, the coronavirus, the whole like group, you know, like groupthink, like everybody starts thinking the same way, which can be kind of dangerous. And that's why in any group, you mean, you love to have some dissenters, some resistors, because those are people who challenge the status quo. There's going to be the people that tell you something's a bad idea or tell you like, hey, this is really stupid. You know, I mean, you need some of those people within a group. And I think that makes a better group dynamic. So that's interesting. It's interesting to me also that chimpanzees are better thinkers.

I think it was more—

I'm gonna have to look that up because it's like, you know.

I think it was more problem solving or something. Like if you put the chimpanzee there, they're gonna work on a problem better. I don't know.

Maybe they're not as worried about peer pressure and looking at it.

They don't have Facebook.

Exactly. They're not worried about what people are, if they're gonna like or dislike their post.

Right, right. And that's ironic too, right? Exactly. Not to get off on a wild tangent, but that's playing such a part in leadership these days. I mean, people are so addicted to the likes. And again, another bit of research that happened over the last couple of years, they found out, and you identify with this as a former drug addict, is that people get the same rush from those stupid likes that people like me used to get from drugs. And that's powerful. That's a powerful hook. And I think, I shouldn't say I think, I know. I mean, again, it comes up in workshops all the time. So many leaders, they're just addicted to the affection, addicted to the validation, and that's dangerous as a leader, I think.

Right. It's funny, 'cause I read similar reports where you get a dopamine hit from likes and stuff, which is crazy to me. And there is the— you get addicted to the— I don't wanna say the adoration, but kind of like the ego part of you really likes the fact that you're in a circle I'm in a certain position and people are gonna look at me like this, I need to say things like this. I mean, in my opinion, when we get in that format, we're really not connecting with the people around us. I mean, really what we're doing is we're just kind of running a script. We're thinking to ourselves like, well, this is what I really should say. It's not really what I wanna say, but this is really what I should say because I'm the leader and this is what they expect. And that really kind of tears down that ability to connect with the people around us, in my opinion.

I agree with you. I agree. It's more like a broadcast than it is a dialogue, I think, a lot of the time, right?

And there's a concept called psychological size that— and you can think about psychological size of how we looked at our parents when we were growing up. A lot of times we're growing up, we look at our parents as bigger than we are, you know, some semblance of maybe Superman and Wonder Woman, right? You know, when we get older, we realize that our parents, they're just human beings. They may— they, you know, they are They're just trying to figure it out like everybody's trying to figure out when you're raising kids. However, the same thing rings true as leaders. A lot of times we look at our leaders as bigger than us. What happens when leaders don't actively work to decrease that psychological size to be almost on the same plane, it decreases two-way communication because those people that are, let's say, down here and they're looking at leader as bigger because they're running a script and they're always, you know, They don't want to admit their faults and so forth. They're not going to tell you when something's wrong. They're just going to play it out and hope that nobody ever finds out that something's wrong. I mean, we really want to work to decrease that through, like I said, our leadership tide, investing in them, having one-on-one conversations so we're more on an equal playing field and increase that two-way communication. I want to know if something's wrong. I want to know if something's not working. 'Cause if I don't, then we're gonna be wasting time, we're gonna be wasting money. I mean, I don't care whose fault it is. I mean, let's just work on a solution. Let's not worry about pointing fingers.

I love the fact that you keep returning it to the humanity of it. And I think, I'm a movie junkie too, and I love movies about, or books especially about, people that we do put on those pedestals that are larger than life. And one of the movies I loved so much over the last few years was The King's Speech. You know, and you see that a man who is in that position, thrust to that position, because, you know, they don't choose that, they're born into it, right? But still to, and especially at the time when that happened, for him to be in that position, but be such a vulnerable human being with the speech impediment and all that. And that was a really interesting relationship with his speech therapist. And it's like you said, by spending time, they saw each other as people, more as equals. Even though there's still that built-in deference that our British friends have, you know.

Exactly, yeah, well, you know, this, I mean, we're all, it's always so funny to me when people look at themselves as better than, because in the end we're all just people. I mean, if I was a diversity speaker, that would be my whole diversity talk. Treat people like people, that's it.

End of story, right? Give me my check, I'm walking away.

That'd be the whole thing right there.

I think we got something there. Like that, how many sessions could we do at one conference Just walking room to room doing that.

It'd be a quick conference, but it'd be effective.

It would be, wouldn't it? There you go. There you go. Hey, listen, tell me really what's the most fascinating thing because, you know, I always love to talk with other people that work in this arena because, you know, how the hell did we get here? How did we end up being so obsessed with leadership? What really got you so fascinated with this?

With leadership?

Yeah, with the whole process and dynamic of it.

Well, I grew up in a different world where we do a really good job of prepping people for the next level. I mean, in the military we do a pretty good job and, you know, you keep saying yes, they'll keep giving you more responsibilities. And what I found in the regular world, the non-military world, is that we do a really good job of prepping the technical expert, but we do a really poor job of prepping that person to be in charge of people. Amen. And there's no one cookie-cutter recipe for leading people because people are messy. I mean, that's it. So, you kind of have to know as much as you can know, adapt as much as you can adapt, connect with people as much as you can connect. And it's a constant learning cycle even for me. Like, I've been in leadership roles for 30 years and, you know, like I have people on my podcast and somebody tells me something, I'm like, That's a thing? I didn't know that was a— holy crap, I didn't know that was a thing. And that, you know, it's almost our charge as leaders to constantly be learning. So on one side, you know, part of like my personal mission is to help bridge that gap between theory and application, you know, for people that get promoted, like, you know, and they're standing there like, what do I do now? The second part is just as a lifelong learner, I'm fascinated by what works and what doesn't work. I've learned a lot more in my life from what doesn't work in leading people. If something works—

The best always do, yep.

Yeah, if it works, it's a Yahtzee moment. I'm like, holy crap, I didn't think that was going to work. But if it doesn't work, it's like, all right, well, how can I use that and make it a little bit better next time? So, yeah, it's kind of twofold for me that I think that there are a lot of people out there really wanting to do well. They just sometimes don't know where to reach out to get the right resources to do the best for their team. On the other end, I myself as a lifelong learner, I'm always trying to be better and do better as well.

Now, I think you hit it right out of the park there, and I think that's why we get along so well. And it's interesting because you're right, there are so many people out there that are selling cookie-cutter templates. And in leadership, wow, I mean, you know, be a master of one or two, but get to know all of them, right? I mean, because you don't know, it's— I think leadership is a dynamic dynamic and creative process. And it certainly helps to learn what other people did. It certainly helps to learn some processes and some ladders and techniques. But man, you really, more than I think any other role in human relationships, boy, you've got to make it up as you're going along.

I mean, and I think that the heart of your leadership style is what's in your heart. That you've got to be authentic in how you do things. That, like you said, it's great to I learned a lot from, you know, reading, you know, other people's books, but I couldn't say that what they did would work for me. It's, you know, adapting that into my own style of, you know, having a, you know, like for me, I like to have fun. I like to have a sense of humor. I like to connect with people like that. So, you know, how can I use things to, you know, in that vein to connect with the people around me and to get to where we need to go as a team.

Well, let's get to— while we wrap things up here, we've got to get to telling people how they can get in touch with you if they want to learn about all that stuff and that you're going to help them through that process. And you are.

Well, I can be found at unconventionalleader.com. That's two L's in the middle, the word unconventional and the word leader put together, .com. I'm on LinkedIn, Chip Lutz. Twitter, Chip Lutz. Instagram, Chip.Lutz. I pretty much own Chip Lutz. There is a—

I found another guy. I found one other guy.

There is. Probably the pro golfer on the senior tour. He has a good game. He kind of throws off my Google ratings. But since he's on the senior tour, I'm just waiting for him to die.

So, it'll work. I got one of those too. And he was in the band Boston. He was the brother of the guitar player. From Boston, I guess, who didn't. Yeah. So I keep her.

I was just telling my wife today, she's like, "Why do you own chiplutz.com?" I'm like, "Because you should own your own name." She goes, "Maybe I should buy Gwen Lutz." I'm like, "Go ahead." I mean—

There you go.

I told her, I said, "I guarantee you that the golfer Chip Lutz would love to have chiplutz.com, but he doesn't.

I'm going to lord that over him forever." Well, if times get tight, you could sell it to him, right? Exactly. Hey, thank you so much. And I've got to say, I've got to put in a plug for your podcast again, Leadership Happy Hour. I'm a podcast junkie and I hear the best of the best and worst of the worst. And I got to tell you, Chip, yours is my favorite and that's saying something.

Well, I appreciate that. And it was fun to have you on the show. I mean, we'll have to do it again because it's been a while.

Oh, that'd be a blast. That'd be a blast. Well, thanks so much, Chip. And we'll be in touch again soon.

Thank you, Jim. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Walking the Walk. Please like and share.

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