Reunited with My Greatest Teacher: Dr. Yang's Lessons on Life & Leadership

I have to say I've been blessed with many great teachers in my life, but none better than the person you're going to meet today, Dr. Yong Zhuengming. Met him many years ago, and ever since then he's just— he continues to be an amazing influence on my life, on my practice, and on the work that I do today. So blessed after many years to get back together with him today and have a wonderful conversation that we're going to share with you right now. So I'm so pleased to introduce to you someone, if you've been with me in person or you've watched some of the videos, you've heard this name before, Dr. Yong Xue Ming. All right, as I promised, you know, if you've met me in person, You've heard me talk about this gentleman many times, and he's— I've been blessed with many, many great teachers, but this, this person, it's such an honor to have him today, such a blessing, because he's probably one of the biggest influences on my life and on my work. And a lot of what I learned about leadership, I learned from this man. I studied martial arts with him, of course, but more important, I do believe, and I hope he doesn't get embarrassed by this, I do believe he's one of our greatest living philosophers. And The philosophy was always much more important to me than the physicality. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to the dear friend. We haven't talked in a long time, but still a treasured friend. And like I said, one of my favorite teachers, Dr. Yong Zhuangming. Dr. Yong, how are you?

Very good. Over 30 years, I think.

30?

Yeah, probably.

Oh my God.

Yeah, because only 2 weeks ago, I I was talking to my older son. We went to Jim and went to—

Jimmy, yeah.

Went to Maine, yeah, to Maine. So that's all. But that was because he's 46, so he was only 18, 19. So think about it. So that's why we went there. So how long ago?

Hey, that was fun. We won't mention—

At least 20 years at least.

We won't tell everybody about all the fun we had on that trip, right?

Anyway, we are not yummy and juicy.

I don't know, you're looking pretty good. You're looking pretty damn good. So tell us a little bit about, because yeah, it's been a while, but you went out, you were in Boston at the time is where your headquarters were, but you went out to California to set up a beautiful retreat center.

Because I'm getting too old now, I cannot do those kind of young people stuff. So I saw the land and I moved to Northern California now. So now it's a small place. But here I still offer some seminar because so many people, they still request to see if I can offer some seminar. So also I need to earn some income for my retirement. So because think about it, a lot, most of the income I have for last 30 years, I put it into retreat center because that retreat center, I didn't get too many, didn't receive too many of donations. So I have to put a lot of my own money in to keep it until we finish it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's amazing that you're still doing it after— my martial arts right now involves a bag of golf clubs. So I'm not getting hit in the head as much as I used to, or my arms.

No worry. Yeah. I think most important is you feel you are fulfilling of your life instead of just how much money you're making. Money is not important. Money is only to be used. So you have to use the right way, then you feel happy. If you money, even you have a lot of money, you don't know how to use it, it's still painful. So it's okay. I'm happy. I'm satisfied. I feel fulfilling about my life and no regrets. I'm ready.

Well, you know, it's amazing. Talk about a life that you've had. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that? Because You've had quite some adventures. I remember you talked about coming from right from Taiwan when you were very young and the adventures you had in the service and then coming here and learning Chinglish, right?

Yeah, my Chinglish. You have to think about, you know, what I am today is because my past. Everything of my thinking has been influenced since I was a child. Okay, now try to go back to the childhood. I was born a year right after the Second World War, and at that time, remember, Japan controlled China, controlled Taiwan for 50 years. So, under Japanese control of Taiwan at that time, they built a military air force next to my village, Yang's Village. At that time, Yang's Village, we had about 700, 800 people. All last name is Yang because the whole village, they live together. Okay, but airport is a military airport is next to the village. Okay, now that's a problem. When Japanese start the war and then they attack Pearl Harbor, after 4 years, the American join the war. What American will do? They attack Taiwan. So the first thing, they try to destroy the airport. So, but Japanese, they will hide the cannon into the village. For defense. So American Air Force have to really bomb the village. So probably about 40% estimate of a relative being killed because bombing.

Wow.

Okay, that's how sad at that time. So that's why I know when I was a child, that in 1945 when the war is over, because so many young people, they feel so sad because so many people get killed in the village. And then moved to the city. Yeah, my family is one of them. At that time, I was only— I was just born in 1946. So Taiwan, their situation is still right after the war, and everything is still very difficult. The life is very difficult, especially, you know, at that time Chiang Kai-shek's party tried to get ready to counterattack mainland China. So between China and Taiwan, still very in the tight situation, get ready for the war. So in that kind of situation, that means there's no material supplies. Everything you have is go to the army, go to the military, especially the food. Okay, so I was born that time. So think about when my mother carried me, it was in non-nutritional time because at that time, lack of food. And I was forming in my mother's inside. Okay, then what happened? I was born defect. I have some kidney, some liver, some heart problem. Okay, so I was born different. Not only me, my brother, my sister, the same thing. Yeah, because it's all non-nutritional at time. So we are born already unhealthy. And right after the birth, 1946, then Again, lack of food. There's not enough supply, especially my father. We have 9 children in the family. I was number 2. Think about it. So at that kind of situation, how you grow up and survive 9 children? Okay, so that's the situation. So that's why a lot of time you are starving. But even my father tried very hard. To feed the family. But unfortunately, when I was about 9 years old, this is about 1954, '53 at that time, you know, Korean War just over. When Korean War is over, the Chiang Kai-shek's party have an announcement because at that time the Chinese Communist, Chinese Communists had sent a lot of spies in Taiwan through to agitate people, to brainwash people against Chiang Kai-shek. So at that time, Chiang Kai-shek had to really use a tough situation to deal with the situation because too many spies in Taiwan. Unfortunately, my father, in 1945, Japanese surrender, my father feel the whole society is chaotic because of so much of crime and there's no government, there's no law, there's nothing. So my father, he bought a gun from Japanese soldiers because at that time Japanese soldiers, just the gun is useless. And then my father has a gun. So that gun, the pistol, then he buried in the mountains near my home. He buried there, but he's afraid to tell people. By 1954, around that time, '55, around that time, Chiang Kai-shek say, if you have connection with the communists or you have any guns, surrender. There's no charge. But eventually a lot of things is not true. Many people, they surrender, they disappear, never seen them again.

Yeah, and when you're talking about, I mean, that's, it's interesting how much fear people have today here in our society, right? And they talk in the extremes and they don't realize that People like you, you survived the actual practice like that. When you say people disappeared, that's permanently.

Yeah, because you know that just means they're dead because they disappeared. So my father was so scared. When he's so scared, he was working for the Wang Bureau for the government. So he told his best friend, he thought it was a friend, he said, what should I do? I have a pistol. Then that friend is afraid, afraid to get involved. So he report to the government because at that time Chiang Kai-shek have a sentence. He say they will rather kill 100 innocent people instead of allowed one escape. So that's because the reason my— then his friend tell the government my father was arrested. That was the toughest time in my life because I was 9 years old at that time. I already know. I already know the world. I can feel the world. I can see. I can feel sadness. It's not just innocent child because that time make me think a lot because you have to survive. The family have 9 children and every morning I have to bring some food. We remain at home. I have to carry it and go to the military police. My father was in the cage. That cage, he cannot stand up, he cannot lie down. And he have only underwear. There's nothing because they're afraid he hang himself before the trial. When I go there, I see my father inside. He was like 32, 33 years old. And all he saw me just The tearing and I give him food what we have. Then they eat it and cry, tearing. And he say every day they allow to go out to walk for 2 hours. That's it. And go back to the cage. He was there almost 10 months.

Wow.

Because again, they cannot, they come to, government come to my home, search everything. They tear everything upside down. They cannot find any connection with the communists. So that means they cannot find a good reason to kill my father. So it's hanging there, hanging there until 10 months later. Finally, they couldn't find any proof. And my father have a good— a lot of friends. My father is a very nice guy. He have a lot of friends in the Huainan Bureau. They work for government. Inside, a lot of people is from mainland China. By that time, you have to get 24 people's signature. All of them from mainland China, not from Taiwan.

Oh, yeah.

To guarantee him. Finally, my father, my mother went to every house, every friend, kneel down, bowed, and beg them. Finally get 24 names. My father was released. So that was a very tough time. And that time, my general also, my stomach also. Okay. But at that time, people probably never understand. The situation at that time because lack of food, you never been starving. People say, "Oh yeah, I'm fasting." Fasting is not same as you're starvation. It's very different. You got no food, you're hungry. So one day I write all these details, a story into my novel, one of my novel. Called "Raisins of Love" because inside a lot of stories, my childhood. That's why I can write from my feeling, deep feeling. Right, right. And then one day, after I went to my father's place and then went back and come to the fuel store, the fuel store, I saw the bun, the bun, Chinese bun.

Yeah.

And I was hungry, right in front of me. And I see nobody see it. I take one and put it under my shirt. They cut me. So when they cut me, they tie me up and hang on the trees. They hang on the trees. I don't know how long we hang in there. When I come down, all my arms bruised. That's all I can remember. And then after that, they let me go. Question is because the village is so small, it's not— one thing happened, then all the words pass on, pass out to everybody. So now since then, everybody recognized I was a thief. You understand? Now I got no friends because parents forbid the kids to play with me. I become alone. And from there along, you are thinking about— you are only 9 years old, what do you think? You hate the world. This world is so cruel. I hate it. I want to become a big guy. I want to turn the world upside down. That cover is some kind of revenge, especially when you are a child. You don't understand that. And that anger inside is so deep because in my life My life like a piece of white paper. But now in that paper, there's a black spot because everybody say I was a thief. So think about this, a trauma, especially in my such a childhood in the child. And what in your mind, you never understand what is the meaning of life. What am— why I was born. In the life.

So I, you know what, I knew, I knew this was going to happen, that there was, there's, um, every time I've, I've spent time with you, I've learned something new and, and come to see a different perspective. And, and one of the things that you just brought up, because this, this is a constant theme as we're working with leaders and trying to help leaders become more compassionate, particularly, you just use the word revenge, you know, and And you said this is what you felt, and which is interesting to me because from the first day I met you, and I'm going to tell people about this story in a few minutes, but from the first day I met you, I met just one of the most— and I hope you don't, you're not embarrassed by me saying this, but you're one of the most compassionate and trusting people. I mean, I knew within— I don't know if you remember this, but I think it was the first seminar I attended, and within the— it was either the first day or the second day I really realized what a special person you were and how much you were sharing with us. And I remember going up to you because I'd been with very different teachers up to that point in martial arts, and people that, to be frank, people that had tremendous egos, not in the positive sense, you know, people that wanted to be admired, that was their priority, that demanded that people admire them. And to meet you and the humility that you displayed and the compassion, I remember going up to you about halfway through the I think it was the second day, and I gave you a hug, and you kindly received it. And I said, you're the teacher I've been looking for. And so to hear you talk about this revenge, and I imagine some hatred that goes along with that because those emotions are so closely tied together, right?

Yeah.

Well, how did you turn that around into becoming the person that you are? That's a fundamental question.

That's what I want to tell you. Since then, you know, all my mind, in my heart, all I see is the black spot. Hmm. Okay. All right. That's why when I came to Laos about 10 years ago, I read a story, is in America. Oh, that's very touching. Okay. The story is so simple. There's a teacher. He come to the classroom. He tell the classroom, probably 15 or 20 people. He say, today we're going to have a test. Okay, but you know, then she distributed the paper upside down to every table. Nobody turn over. And she said, okay, I want you, when you turn the paper over, I want you write what you see as an essay. That's a very simple things. And then he said, okay, go ahead. Then all the students, they turn over. It's blank. Only one tiny black spot in the white paper. And she said, okay, now write the essay about what you see. Okay. After 30 minutes, he collect all the paper. She said, I'm not going to grade you about what you write, but I'm going to read what you write. He read it. Almost all of them write about the black spot, where it is, how big it is, How light, how deep her color was. She say, see, nobody write about white color. Everybody see the black color. That's a human. All you see, you see what is the bad for you. They don't see how much you already have. See the white you already have, you don't appreciate that. All you see is what I don't have. That's black spot. Yeah, that was me. All the time. So from there is deep in my heart is a secret because that thing I don't want to share with people. Only the people in the village, they know. Once I get out of village, I don't want to tell anybody.

Right.

Because it's something. Yeah. Then until I come to United States. Okay. Then that one kept hidden because that reason it got depressed. And you get sadness. And all the time I will hide in the column, the sewage column inside by myself and feel sad, feel sorry for myself. And I generate ulcer. I have ulcer, my sister have ulcer. The ulcer from 9 years old until 15 years old. Okay, so this ulcer is not get better because that time there's no doctor. We couldn't afford it anyway, right? And it just— when you eat, your stomach pain. We don't eat, stomach pain. Because also the membrane, they're broken, so then the acid stimulate the muscles. It's painful. So every time like that, every day I've experienced it since I was like 9 years old. Think about it, until 15. Then 15, that year marked the difference of my life because originally I always hate the world, hate people. I've been treated unequally, but I believe not only me today, a lot of people, they live in the same situation. They probably have the same feeling because that's why I can easily put my compassion inside. Yeah. So that's the reason I, when I was in Paris, They took me to a street, 9th Street. There are a lot of restaurants there. When I saw there is Romanian kids about 16 years old, because at that time it was the 1980s when the Berlin Wall is coming down, the East and West start communicate. A lot of communist young kids, they run away from home, go to the West looking for The future. So, but again, when they get there, they've been absorbed by mafia. They're selling drugs, selling the sex, whatever, in order to survive. But I saw this boy near in the center of the street. There's no street, there's no car because only restaurant. And when I look at him, it make me feel my past when I was a child. He was hungry and they have a sign on the bottom. He's French. And I asked my friend Pascal, he said, what he said? He said, this guy from Romania, he's looking for the food. I said, Pascal, give me some. At that time, it's not euro, it's still in the franc. So he said, Dr. Yang, don't give it to him. I said, why not? He needs food, he's hungry. He said, no, if he can kneel, he can kneel down in the center of street. That means he already got permission from the mafia. He belongs to mafia, local mafia. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to stay there. He said, you give it to him, not he's getting it, it's mafia going to get it. So that kind of thing is struggling in my mind. Those people, do they have choice? Yeah. That's why when I come back about 10 years ago, I started, decided to write a story what I see. In Italy, in Spain, and in France. When I see them, I'm heartbroken because I can put my situation into their situation. Yeah. So that's why I write a book called Sun Chaser. It's a novel, Sun Chaser. If people want to read it, that's about my experience about traveling in Europe. Sun Chaser, if people want to Read it. It's very simple novels. It's only $2. This is my commercial.

Yes, and we'll put up the websites. It'll be right here so you can get to it. No, but you know what? It's so interesting because, well, I'm glad you told that story. There's, and believe me, I'm not equating my suffering, and I don't know how much I've ever really talked to you about it, but before I met you, I had a pretty deep experience with drugs and had gotten to a a point of desperation like that as well, where I was— I tried to take my own life a couple of times, and then a couple of times the drugs tried to take me. And, uh, you know, that's, that's just the way it is until I learned to— you just hit it— until I learned to appreciate, instead of focusing on what I didn't have, to focus on what I did have, however little that was. And again, I'm not complaining about this because my poverty was self-imposed. It wasn't like yours. I, I made bad decisions. And but still, that poverty is poverty when, when you're there. And like you, it was interesting because the story you just told, and I remember you telling that some years ago, um, I work with kids that are incarcerated now, and a lot of them have certain situations like that. And you're right, they get mixed up with gangs, they get mixed up with, with organized crime. But how much of a choice do they have? So in a roundabout way, that leads me to— this is a I'm so blessed to be able to ask you this question. I'd love to hear your perspective on this. When I'm doing seminars now, sometimes, especially with executives, I ask a question. I said, do you believe that people are generally innately good or evil? Right? And of course, most people will say good, good. And I say, really, really? And I challenge them sometimes with questions. I say, in a situation, would you ever harm somebody? Well, no, I wouldn't harm somebody. Of course, you can always create circumstances, right, where you may be very tempted to, or to steal. Like you said, you took a bun, a roll, because you were hungry, because you were starving, you know. So it's always a matter of degree and situation. But my philosophy these days is that I believe that— and this is, again, this is back to— I remember you having us meditate on the tai chi symbol, yin and yang, right? And the idea— and there's a couple things I want to hit on that, but that idea that, yeah, there's Nothing is as simple as it looks, right? Everything is intertwined. And are we good? Yeah, we're good, but we're also capable of great evil. I mean, scientifically, psychology has really identified what our two greatest drives are: survival and self-interest. And then a lot of things compete with that. I believe it's very difficult to practice good behavior, to practice goodness. And I believe that it requires a tremendous amount of discipline. And that's what we need to focus on. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Jim, Jim, let me explain to you, okay? My understanding now, we are born innocent. The child is born very pure, very simple pure. They only feel the nature. It's the environment we can create it, influence them. If the child grow up in the gangsters environment, he become a gangster, become a terrorist. But if the child grow up in the nice environment, Of course, because that's called influence or called brainwash. It's called education. Okay, so that's all being influenced. But I believe everybody, they were born, they are innocent.

I like that word better than goodness. Innocence, I like that.

Yeah, they are innocent because they are neutral, but they don't know what is right, what's wrong, right? It's we brainwash them what's right, what's wrong. See, so from there they got influenced. So beginning from my background, I got agitated by all these things. I'm turned to the more and more evil. All I see is dark. The darkness occupy the entire piece of the paper. I don't see the white. Okay, so that one is suffer for about 5 years, 6 years until I was 15 years old. I really appreciate one of my classmates introduced me to Master Chen. This is my White Crane Master.

Okay, yeah, right, I remember.

Okay, yeah, yeah, my White Crane Master. He introduced me. That's why deeply in my mind I appreciate him so much, though he didn't even intend. But the question is, what happened is, is a big blessing to me. When I see my White Crane Master, he's a farmer. He couldn't even read, he couldn't even write. But he just tell the nature, he tell the feeling, because that's all he had as a farmer. Because he grow the cat, grow the food and have some chicken. That's all he had. And then the same time he tell the nature. And from there, somehow I found whenever I'm around him, I feel peace. I don't feel that. And he doesn't tell you the anger. Then one time I was upset. He asked me, why are you upset? Then I tell him, because I'm very sensitive. You know, when you are in that kind of trauma, you are very sensitive. Anybody say anything slightly, you get angry. And inside you want to revenge, you want to do something. Okay, that's what the war between now America and China now, very sensitive to each other.

Right? Well, and Americans to Americans too. I think oversensitive to each other.

Okay, but anyway, okay, we don't talk politics now.

Not this week, right? Not this week. We take a break from it.

Good question, because that's one. And then I start get interested about his philosophy. So there are many things. All he tell me is not really he tell you what you should do, what you should not do. He never said that. He tried to tell me all the stories. When the stories— it's different.

See, that's the parallel. That's the parallel. When I met you, you were the same way. I mean, and I remember you talking about that story and about how it helped with your stomach issues and whatnot when you started learning. But you teach the same way. And again, the parallel— it's funny because although now people are coming to us because of the Keep It Human theme, but we still do the Sensei Leader theme. That's central to everything we do. You're not getting anything different. And the idea that leader as a teacher, right? The most effective leaders are effective teachers. And parallel, you know, we've had so many parallels in life. You're refreshing my memory in a lot of conversations we had before for different reasons and circumstances, but maybe that's why I felt so close to you. But anyway, like, yeah, you taught, you didn't, well, sometimes you told us what to do. But usually, and that was the coolest thing. I mean, I still, and I share the stories that you shared with us, you know, because the story is such a powerful way to teach and share your experience, right? Much more, I think, much more effective than just the lecture and the imposition of rules, right?

Which, yeah. You know, one of the most important things he taught me He say we have to be outside round, inside square. Hmm, outside round, so you get along with the people because it's a whole society. Okay, like a big ball, but inside have a small tiny balls. Every ball is actually individual. If you are square inside, you'll be pushed out of the society. You have to be round so you can circle with people. Okay, and then I asked him, he said, what is this? He said, that means inside you have to have a discipline. Without the discipline, you cannot conquer yourself. But outside, you have to learn how to get along with people. Then I said, that's— but there's nothing to do with the martial arts.

He said, no, that's everything.

Everything to do. He said, when you are in the Situation, for example, like China and America, in a situation like that, yeah, both sides square against each other. Okay, so the same thing when you encounter a person, he want to fight with you. What you do? You just think about, yes, I get angry, I want to kill you, I want to do what? No, he said that's wrong because you don't know him. You know you're angry, but you don't know him. He say, you know, the best way, he say, the letter I find Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu is an author, he talk about that. He say, if you know your enemy, you know yourself, you win 100%. You know yourself without knowing your enemy, you win 50%. You know your enemy without knowing yourself, you win 50%. You don't know yourself, you don't know your enemy, It lost everything.

As you've been hearing, even though it's been years since we, we talked with one another, Dr. Yong remains one of the most important and influential people in my life and in my work. I certainly consider the time that I spent with him as one of the greatest blessings, the greatest treasures in my life. You have that opportunity too. If you want to learn more about Dr. Yong's seminars and retreats, visit YMMA.com or YongXuengMing.com. And of course there you'll also find information on his books, videos, and other resources. Don't miss this opportunity to spend time with one of the world's greatest teachers and one of the most sincere and genuine human beings you'll ever meet. You just— you just triggered— you just triggered a memory of the way you expressed this was so powerful, and it's one of the lessons I take to this day. Okay, we were working— it was, uh, one of the tai chi seminars All right. And, well, first of all, I should lay some groundwork, okay? Because what you just said, you always encouraged us to take these lessons outside of the training hall. This was, it was to make our, to share with people in life, not just to fight in the training hall. One of my other masters, Professor Nick Sirio, who I admired so much, in that system there was the rank system, the black belts, right? And he defined the achievement of a black belt as the achievement of a good learning attitude. He said, if you get your black belt, you learn how to learn. You, most of all, you learn how to learn about yourself, and then you can share that right outside. Now, it requires sensitivity too. And you correct me if I get this wrong, I remember you talking about skin listening, and people would wonder, why is he saying listening with the skin? You touch, you feel with the skin, you listen with your ears. And I said, no, no, no, no, it's a different process. I said, listening is much more receptive than touching. I said listen to what he's saying. Did I miss that, or is that—

No, there's a listening called feel what your enemy feel. It's not because the feeling is the one. Touching is only part of feeling. It's only a small part. It's on the surface. Okay, so because the reason you have to see, because my master explain, if during the combat, if you have an enemy in front of you, What's in your mind? You scared? You lost? You're confident? Yes. You think you can handle it? Yes. That's the most important.

Okay.

Are you strong enough? Then second, you have to see how come he behave like that. What he's thinking? Is he scared or he tried to— brassy, whatever? Yeah. Okay. Because once you know all this situation, Then you can handle a situation without a fight. Okay, that one give me idea, right? Because you know the studio in the Boston before I have, cross the street is a bar. And the bar, this Vietnamese veterans, he always get drunk there. And the one day he got so drunk, I was teaching. He come in, he was so drunk, he said, "Who is the master? I want to challenge you. I killed so many Vietcong in Vietnam War, so I don't care how tough you are, I want to fight you." But he's drunk. So I have a student from Israel, and he jump out, he said, "You want to fight, fight me. Don't fight my master." I push him away, said, "What are you talking about? Get out of here." He's drunk. So what I say, "No, no." Then while away, I change him because he was a turning angry because he really want to fight. And then once I push Hoang Minh away, I say, "Wow, look at you. You're so strong. You're so tough. You must be very good." He say, "Oh, I believe you can kill many Vietcong." So, but that, now his anger is turning soft now. He turning soft. I say, "Oh, because you understand I'm teaching now. Can you wait after I finish teaching and then we can fight?" So now he listened to me. Now he sit down. He sit down, I go to get a big cup of coffee and bring to him. I say, "Yeah, you drink this while you are waiting and we can fight after we finish it." Then about 20, 30 minutes later when I finish the class, when I come in, he's gone. The glass, the cup is on the chair. He's gone. That's it.

That's it.

That's no fight. Okay, then after that, every time he passed studio, I was inside, he put it, he looked at me and then go like this, go like this, go like this. Yeah. And we become friends.

Well, you know, such a powerful story. And, and, you know, for people that are listening to two martial artists talk for the first time, everything we're talking about life, right? The context, our experiences, a lot of our experiences happen. But it's about life, right?

My white crane master have one powerful sentence, you know, they always hang in my mind. One day he said, "Hey, little Yang, you know you are not learning martial arts from me." I said, "I'm learning martial arts." He said, "No, you are learning the way of life." Life, yes. It is.

Yeah.

Because the learning martial art is only a tool for you to understand the life. But it's not the life. It's only a tool for you to understand. Too many people— life. Yeah, once you understand the life, the martial art is meaningless.

I think too many people in our society, they buy into the mythology. And this is another story I remember you saying. What did you used to— what was that movie? The Crouching Tiger. What did you call that movie? You had a different name for that movie, right? And I remember somebody in one of the seminars asked, "Do you remember this guy who challenged you one day in there?" And I don't want to come back to that other story because there's an important point. But one guy stood up and he said, "Dr. Young, I know today people can't do these things anymore, but back in the day, could they levitate and go up the tree?" And you said, "Are you kidding me?" He said, "Those are stories to make things, you know, to exaggerate, to make things look big." And so many people still to this day, even the trite idea that if you get some martial arts skill that you can go around and defeat all your enemies. No, no, it gives us a better chance. It's a skill. But I don't want to lose that theme of humility because that's such a powerful theme in leadership, in life. I think it would serve us all very well with the conflict in our society right now, that sense of humility. You touched on it earlier by saying you have to put yourself in the other person's perspective.

Right?

You have to understand the other person. The first day, I want to share this story. The first time I met you, I had called around because the system I was in, we had been studying Tai Chi with another, another organization, and they decided, they got in a fight and they decided not to associate with them anymore. But I started to fall in love with the Tai Chi and the Qi Gong. So I was reading some of your books and I called you. You answered the phone back then. I don't know if you still do that. And you said, well, you're from Maine, you can't come down every day. You come down for the seminars. You invited me out. So long story short, I get there for my first visit and I'm late. I couldn't find a place to park. And now I had built in my head this picture of Dr. Yong, okay, from the great Chinese master, Dr. Yong. And I said, I'm fully prepared. I'm going to walk in there. You're going to yell at me and I'm going to be doing pushups till I throw up. But instead, and And actually, you embarrassed me even more because you stopped the whole class and asked me where I parked. And I said, "Well, I parked out front." And then you said, "Did anybody else?" You said, "We'll get a ticket if we park up front." So you made sure everybody was accommodated, everybody moved their cars. So now I thought, "Oh, now I really screwed up because I just stopped the whole seminar for everybody." And then things, you just went on, nothing, like nothing happened. Then it was about halfway through the morning, You left, you gave us something to practice and you left. You said you had to do something. And to my surprise, the next time I saw you, you were coming down the back stairway with donuts and coffee for everybody and setting up the table. Again, I had been with people who would make sure that they were never seen doing something like that, that they would order other people. And I knew right then, like I said, that to me, and I've come to understand the greatest leaders that that I've met, and I've been blessed to meet so many now, have that genuine sense of humility.

Jim, that was a test.

That was a test?

Yeah.

You've always done that to me. Okay, what's the test?

Remember, every time I always have a donut and always has a bagel?

Yeah.

I want to see what people go first.

Are you serious?

Most people go to donut.

I did.

Not too many people touch it. That's why I said, oh gosh, these group come here for qigong, but they still don't listen. They say, well, I have a hard time to convince them to eat right.

Well, I'm glad you cleared that up all these years later. I still eat donuts though. I'm half French-Canadian. I like the pastries.

I tell you what, this trigger me for another story I have. Okay, go ahead. Because I always set up the line because when I was 15 years old, I cannot cross the line. One side is good, the other side is bad. Okay, so I cannot cross the line, but always pursuing them. But I'm still on the dark side, always have selfish, always got the revenge, always hate the thing. And slowly, slowly I get to a good side. And the question, this one, my master always say, you want to cultivate your temperament, you have to learn to conquer yourself. If you don't conquer yourself, you can't. Because conquer yourself is harder thing. You can conquer yourself, you can conquer the world. Okay, now this sentence keep ringing in my mind. So that time, the seminar, I have about 60 people. That's a lot of people in such a small room. So in the morning I went to buy 5,000 of the donuts and the bagels. So by myself, and I take a— grab a paper napkin, paper napkin and put together. And when I try to go out, one of the paper napkin drop to the floor. Okay, but I say, well, it's the inside of the donut, they can— they will clean it anyway. So before I step out, this lady, she is fat. She stand the door. She look at me. She said, "Pick it up." Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Then the first thing in my mind, I get angry. I say, "That's not your business. It's only one piece of paper. They're going to clean anyway." So I told her, I said, "No, they're going to clean anyway, sir." She said, "I don't care. Pick it up." Okay, but everybody watching now because now it's really a Chinese guy and an American woman, right? Like that. And after thinking over, we say, okay, then I put the donut on the counter and go to pick up paper and put in the garbage can and come stand in front of her, look at her eyes, then I bowed to her, say thank you very much. Then I took a donut and left. When I step out, "Gosh, I feel so good!" Because again, I conquer myself.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's not easy. And then after that, I know I can conquer myself. So it's okay.

That's so cool because you got me on one of those too. I remember you were teaching us part of one of the long forms. And, you know, I'd been teaching for a long time by then. And I would always tell my students to look up when they were practicing the form, even just learn it. Look up, your eyes, be aware of where you— right? But like many people, when we're learning something, sometimes we look down, right? To— yeah, so we're not distracted. Well, this person who— it was her very first experience in martial arts because it was really cool that a lot of those seminars, it would be somebody who's never practiced at all, and then there are a lot of teachers and instructors and whatnot that would come to you, right? So people with a lot of experience, and we're all mixed together. So anyway, this, this person, I knew it was her first experience. She saw me with my eyes down. She came over and she said, you know, you should have your eyes up when you— and I got so angry. I didn't get angry at her, but I got so angry. I said, who the hell is she telling me what to do? I've been doing this for 20 years. What? Who is this? I didn't say anything, thankfully, right? And I remember I shared that with you at lunchtime, and you said "But Jim, she's right." And I said, "Yeah, you know, yes, she is. She's right. She's absolutely right." And the lesson was, and this is, again, this is something we work on with leaders all the time that, you know, we have to, we can learn from anybody. We should be learning from the experience of people on the front lines, experience of people who are new to something, 'cause they offer a new perspective too, right? People that have been around for a while, we should have that input and have that humility. So that was, yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, that's because every time we have something happen like that, always think about me, me, me. What my feeling? You hurt my feeling. You don't think about what his motivation. He want to help you, maybe. So why always me, me, me? That's why I always tell people, if you see some people, they always me, me, me. What I feel, what I want. Then those people you have to be careful. If your people always think about you, oh, you'll be in heaven. But the people think about you and him or her, that's equal. That's okay. But the question, you know, what the human have a problem? Always expecting. Expecting something, expecting something, expecting some friend do something. Always demanding. We don't appreciate. Just see. That's why we appreciate that you understand. If you think about, for example, the case you have. If there's a lady tell you say, "Why not straight?" You see what her motivation. Because that's when I look down, I'm depressing.

Yeah.

I'm afraid. I don't have confidence. So you look up, you're confident.

Yes.

And you know what? That's when you analyze it. You appreciate her. Yeah, instead of get angry. But unfortunately, human nature instinct is just why I get angry. Why you hurt my dignity?

Okay, especially, especially if we, especially if we've been hurt, right? Because that's the other thing too, and I want, want people to understand and feel comfortable with that. The important thing, I believe, is the process that, you know, we learned through largely through martial arts, but that process of continual self-awareness, right? Self-analysis. And I don't think— I might have stolen this from you directly. Tell me if I did. But at some point I started saying this. I think I shared it in print first in the Sensei Leader. Perfection is not a destination. It's a never-ending process. Right? And that's the thing that we have to adopt if we want to learn and we want to grow and we want to develop. But also understanding, and I think being forgiving of ourselves sometimes, like the reactions you had, the feelings of revenge and hatred and The feelings I had were feelings of inadequacy. So when somebody would challenge like that, I would go back to feeling— when she said that, I go back to my drug addict self, right? And I'm not worthy, I have no value, I'm stupid, those types of things. But like you said, those are all inward things, aren't they? That's focused inward. So we have to, again, and people confuse humility too much with subjugation maybe. It's not that. Humility is that ability to purposely engage in self-awareness and question and say, is this the right thing? Is this the wrong thing? Or is there just a different way, huh? Yeah. So did I steal that perfection thing from you? It's probably close to something you taught us.

Yeah, but it's important. You have to be Humble. If you cannot humble, your cup is full, right? So when the cup is full, you cannot learn. So when you keep the cup empty, you always space to learn. But when you satisfy, you don't. So that's a humble— that's what I learned from my White Crane Master. I tell you, for my opinion, have all the martial arts I have seen, there's not too many reach the same level, but nobody know her. He's in the mountains. Yeah, he said no, he learned martial art because he wanted to learn martial art. It's not because want to show people I know martial arts. So because the reason he continue pursuing it, that's why you understand the philosophy so deep. See, that's why he told me, say, you know, the taller the bamboo grow, the lower it bows. That hit me hard. You know that story, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

That one hit me very hard. Yeah. Because I was so proud of myself. It's so simple.

It's so simple. It's not easy. It's so simple, but so powerful.

Yeah. Yeah. But that one, I keep thinking the same sentence. He say, "Yeah, the bamboo grow taller, it bow low." That means the more you know, you should be more humble. That's very simple things. See? That's, those are things to me, he influenced my life so much. So when I was 15 years old, I start changing. See, one thing he told me, I asked him, he said, how can I conquer myself? Because that time I started to say I will go, I want to conquer myself. I want to go towards the bright side, not in the bad side, dark side.

Yeah.

I asked him, say, what should I do? He say, the first thing, conquer your laziness. He say, how can I conquer your laziness? He say, I don't know, but I heard fishing can conquer yourself. Fishing will train your patience.

Yeah.

Okay, patience. Okay, fishing. I love fishing. So the fishing is fun. So I went back and cut the bamboo and get some thread and gather some, make some float, whatever, and dig some earthworm. Okay, I go fishing. There's summertime, because summertime is about 2 and a half months in Taiwan. Summertime, summer vacation. So I just carry a fish pole I made and the bicycle. I went to a lake near, it's about 40 minutes from my home. I sit there. Oh, not easy. You think because the hook is made by clothespin. How can they catch a fish?

Oh yeah, safety pin. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, they have been. And the sweat is just— there's no— there's a homemade fishbowl. So, but sit there 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, catch nothing. After 1 day, 2 days, 3 days, I want to quit. I catch nothing. Okay, then I said, "I'll go." He said, "No." This is not how I conquer myself. So finally, after a week, because 2 and a half months, finally after a week, I say like, if I quit, I jump into the lake, I kill myself. Okay, once you have that commitment, that's commitment. Then I start to calm down. So now I start realize what my master said. He sit there, he patiently You watch your float. The float is connected to the bait. So everything fish on the bottom move, the float show you, right? So now it teach you how to be have awareness. But when the fish bite, you have to pull. Alertness. It's very simple things. Then from there, start pay attention. Eventually when you start pay attention, You start focusing. It's meditation. I'm not kidding. It's meditation. After 1 month, I force myself 6 hours a day. If I quit, I'm going to kill myself. Okay.

But see, you're hitting on something now that's very difficult, I think. And again, one of the blessings to meet you and hear your stories was the Western mind at least the contemporary Western mind, is very impatient, right? We want everything to happen now. We want everything, everything, and we want it now. And that's a, that's a very difficult concept. But one of the, one of the powerful things that you taught me, and you really did open this— I had started to study some of the Taoist philosophy before I met you, but, um, and then from a couple of your books that I had read before I met you in person, And this idea, first of all, again, it goes back to you having us really think about what the Tai Chi symbol can mean and how we can apply it. First of all, that idea that the things that appear opposite are usually not, are they? They're two parts of the same whole. I think the way you express it, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, is that we perceive or we experience things as opposite, maybe to help us understand and sort it out because it's difficult sometimes to—

Okay, Jim, I give you a test now. Okay, let the yin-yang symbol show you what your goal of practicing. There's a yin-yang symbol. Okay, what they tell you, what are you looking for?

What am I looking for? Yeah, that's a tough question. You know, I have to say I don't know. I just learned how to keep I enjoy looking. I don't always know what I'm looking for. I enjoyed the looking. And part of it was one of the exercises you gave us, you had us stare at the thing for a while and then you asked us, does it look like it's moving? And we all said yes, which is interesting because I imprint that now when people talk about this myth of work-life balance, right? I said, what is— here's what I learned as a fighter. Balance is not a static state. And again, this comes directly from what you taught us. It's a dynamic process. Things are always moving.

Okay, that dynamics is yin and yang. Is good and bad, whatever. Is all this turmoil, all this. Okay, what all this learning? Human, we are in this world experience the war, killing, peaceful, killing, peaceful. This is yin and yang, it keep frustrating. What are we looking for? Looking for the center.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Remember Tai Chi, Tai Chi 13 posture, that's about central equilibrium. They're talking about how do you harmonize both.

Yeah.

Then you can find the center. But we only get that, right? Yeah, you never find the center.

Or we also— it's a fleeting thing, isn't it? We experience it just for that, not even— you can't even measure it in time, right? It's just a moment that happens.

Once you have that center, Yeah, then there's harmony.

Then it's okay.

So that's exactly when I started fishing.

No, no, actually, you know what, I'm wrong about that because I shared that with one of my students one time and I said when you achieve perfect, perfect harmony, perfect, it's, you know, that's it. And she said, well, no, because then nature breaks down your body, you become part of the, of the land around you and the trees and sees the cycle continues, right?

So yeah, yeah, it is. And so that's why I say, you know, after one month, you know, I fishing, what I realize, yeah, I realize I'm done with my mind, see, because now, because my mind is always yin and yang, yin and yang. Now my mind go to the center, I can focus. When I can focus, I can feel. When I feel I can feel myself, I can see my future, I can see my past. That is very important because it starts building confidence. So since I was 15, 16 years old, I always set up my goal of my life until I was 50. So when I was 15 years old, I already know what I would do when I'm 50. So that's a goal I set up. Okay, after 2 and a half months, my mom look at me, she say, "What happened to you? You look so different from 2 months ago." Yes, because I'm not just an actor like this. I'm a thinker.

Yeah.

I thinking, when I think, I feel things. When I think, I feel things, I understand things.

But when you feel things, you— here's, this is a question comes up over and over again, right? When you put yourself in that frame of mind and you feel you're also going to feel pain, right?

Yes.

So how do you reconcile that? How do you respond?

Pain is a blessing.

Thank you.

Okay, my life, my life, before I was 15 years old, I was in pain, but make me appreciate today everything I have. I'm in heaven. See, a lot of people, they have piece of bread today. They are this now, I don't like it. To me, that's precious. Even such a small tiny piece of bread, every bite, that to me is more valued, more valuable than anybody else. I can taste it, I can feel it, I appreciate that. How many people, they grow up in the heaven, they know what is heaven? They don't know. They think heaven is hell.

Exactly.

You have to be in the hell, then you know the heaven. So that's why I tell you, everybody say, oh, I'm sorry for you. I say, I don't. I don't feel sorry for myself because my life, think about my life from the difficult until now, very enjoyable. Think about it.

Yeah. What are you going to do with this, right? What are you going to do with this? And the pain is inevitable. You know, the pain is inevitable.

Yeah. My appreciation today deeper than others because I have that pain in the past.

Yeah.

So that's why I can appreciate more. So no problem. My life is pretty good because I tell the truth, I feel I'm lucky because I was in the sandwich between the old life and the new life. Yeah. But today a lot of people in the new life, they have a computer, they have cell phone, they have this, they have this, they have everything they have. Are they happy? You check them. They are not happy. I appreciate what I have today.

Yeah, you just made me think again. First of all, I'm going to say this very quickly. I want to be sensitive to your time. I'd love to talk to you all day. Um, please, let's, let's make this— we, we connected again. Let's make this the first visit, not the last. We'll have you back some more if you'd like.

Oh, I'm gonna die soon. You better quick.

Well, next time I come out to California, you can see. But anyway, what you just touched on when you said without the pain, there's not the joy either, right? But the— God, you made me think so much because that's what I was doing when I was turning to drugs, you see, trying to eliminate the pain, you see, trying to avoid the pain. But there is no avoiding it. The more you try to avoid the pain, and the drugs is a very good example, the deeper and deeper you go, and you may not feel it right now, Because when you hit the bottom, whoa, right?

You keep looking at the black spot. That's why you get deeper and deeper. Because you know how I turn around? Since I was 15 years old, I start ignore that black spot. I'm keep pursuing the bright side. I look at the white part. Now when I'm in my 30s, my white part becomes so shiny. So now people, they are blind. They don't see the black spot. They cannot see the black spot. It was not until 19— when I was about 50s, I started to tell the people the story about my past. Then people know I have a dark side, very deep inside.

I got you. I got you on this one. I remember somebody was telling me— I had gotten to know you, you know, more as a person by this point, but Someone was talking about how calm Dr. Yong was, how he's always so calm and he's always so peaceful in his mind. I said, you just wait, you just wait. And what had happened was Jimmy was supposed to start a class and he was late. And all of a sudden I heard you up in the hallway, up in the— what do you mean? Jimmy, what are you doing? You're supposed to get— And this person looked like this. I said, no, no, I'm so grateful. You see, because Dr. Jung is— he's more of a hero to me because he's so human, not because of this perception that we might have. And I think that's one of the important parts of it, not to get back to technical again, but one of the most important parts of leader that it's been identified now very strongly by psychologists that two of the most important traits that are markers for an effective leader are vulnerability and uncertainty, you see, which a lot of people look at as weaknesses, right? But again, as you taught us, those weaknesses, that's where the strengths come from and the vulnerability to be able to share. So I'm glad, I guess I said I'm blessed because I think I probably heard some of these stories before other people did. But yeah, no, it is your humanness like that, your willingness to share your life story and how you came through that. I think that's important. But I, but I, if it's any consolation, I feel the same. I hid a lot of things too. And recently I had started— I had stopped sharing my drug experience when I was speaking, which was— I realized was important. And I had several people say, no, you know, you have to tell that story. You have to tell that story. People don't know who you are really.

Yeah, yeah.

Where you've come from.

When you tell the story, that's the first thing to untie the knot. If you don't do that, the knot will continue there. I always tell people, okay, took me 34 years to untie the knot. Until now I can tell you no problem. Before I couldn't. It feels embarrassing because of my dignity. Okay, see, that's why I realized one thing. If you stay in the corner of the wall, you just face the corner. As long as you keep facing the corner, you always in the corner, always see the black spot. Yeah, can you turn around? Once you can turn around 180 degrees, there's a big horse, there's a big house. Why you corner that? If I want to give people advice, learn to turn around. Is you have to do it, not nobody can make you happen. You have to do it. Once you have that conference, you can dare yourself. Once you turn around, you see the sky is big, the ocean is huge, then you have open heart.

That's a beautiful place to wrap this episode up. I couldn't say anything better. Dr. Yong, thank you so much.