Self-Reliant Leadership with Jan Rutherford

Another amazing guest we've got in store for you today. This is a new friend, Jan Rutherford. He's the creator of something called Self-Reliant Leadership, and we had him on Walking the Walk just a little while ago, and he sure inspired me. And and I know he will you as well. Also, make sure when you chime in, make sure you share your comments, ideas, questions, thoughts, anything that you've got. Share them in the comments. If you're on YouTube Live or on Facebook Live, you can do that right in that area. If you're not, if you're watching on a shared one, just click on the original broadcast and that should bring you over. So without further ado, let's see if we can bring Jan onto the show. There he is. Jan, thanks for being here.

Thanks, Jim. Thanks for having me.

Oh no, absolutely, it's an honor. Why don't you start off a little bit, just give the overview on Self-Reliant Leadership and whatnot?

Yeah, Self-Reliant Leadership is a company I founded back in 2011 after I wrote my, my book on self-reliant leadership. And, you know, people often think, does it mean, you know, you go it alone? But Self-Reliant Leadership is really about You know, being squared away mentally, physically, emotionally, taking responsibility for yourself because as a leader you have to do that first. But part of that, that personal responsibility is also knowing when to raise your hand and say, "I need help." Right. And, you know, to take ownership and that. None of us, you know, take this journey alone, successfully anyway. So—

Oh no, we're seeing that, you know, intimately right now, for sure.

Yep. So, but that's what the firm is about. And what we do is a lot of executive coaching and leadership development. And a few times a year, we head out in the mountains and take some executives and some military veterans that are transitioning out and make magic happen out there.

You know, that sounds like so much fun. One of my greatest regrets is that I didn't serve. I was too busy messing up my life at the time. But I think that's a remarkable thing. No, I'm serious. I think I would have— I think I would have really enjoyed a career in the military. I really do, knowing myself now. I mean, when I— my young self probably didn't feel that way.

Well, I, I, I have to tell you, Jim, I, you know, it wasn't that I grew up thinking I was going to go in the military. I, I really got to a point where I felt like I didn't have options. I mean, it's like the story of a lot of people, you know, a few decades ago, why they went in the military is It wasn't because they wanted to serve and because 9/11 happened. It was because, hey, you know, I don't know if I'm ready for college. I don't have money for college. I don't know what— I don't know what trades I want to get into. So you go in to kind of figure out who you are. And, you know, you know, the— it's, it's not trite to say that, you know, if you go in a boy, you're going to come out a man, right? That's definitely what happens.

Oh, for sure. Absolutely. I've heard that story so many times, very, you know, various versions of it. Um, what is— where's Miranda? Miranda, thanks so much for chiming in. It is going to be great. If you haven't listened to Jan before, he's got some pretty incredible stories and pretty incredible insights too. So thanks, and thanks always, Miranda, for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate your support of our live streams and everything else we do. So anyway, and as Miranda just did, anybody has a comment, question, whatever, just chime in and we'll do our best to get to it right away. Jan, I was really interested. Um, there's been an interesting struggle that happened, and part of the reason I was so excited to have you back on, um, you know, I, I've been preaching for a long time about the dangers of what I call the authoritarian slip. You know, when people get into positions of authority and get into a situation where they can go into a kind of a command and control mode. And, you know, I know we talked about this a little bit before. I don't believe that You know, from time to time, all leaders have to assume a command and control posture, um, out of urgency or danger or whatever. But unless you've earned the respect and the trust and the loyalty of the people you serve, they're not going to follow your orders anyway. Now we're seeing a big pushback against a lot of, especially local authorities, they're imposing edicts that a lot of people see as draconian. Um, sometimes even, I know locally, I've been kind of vocal locally here because our local officials have started to impose some rules or create some rules that basically just reinforce what people were doing anyway, what most people were doing anyway. But now they can come out and thump their chests and say, "Hey, we told you to fill in the blank," whether that's wearing the masks or, you know, whatever the case may be. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, well, I, you know, I look at it through a leadership lens. And what you're really asking is, you know, "Hey, I'm not sure I agree with some of the decisions being made." That happens in organizations every single day in the business world. You know, I was on a walk with my wife last night, and I said, you know, it's interesting, I work mostly with top-level executives and a few that are a layer down, and none of the people at the top of the organization ever complain about people. You know, they're, they're trying to solve problems. The people that are one step below are always complaining about the people above them. You know, it's interesting. But getting to your question directly, it really involves decision-making. So oftentimes leaders will make a decision. They'll say, "Hey, here's why I made this decision." So what you're hearing right now is, "I've made this decision because people's safety is the most important thing. We need to flatten the curve." What they don't do to help people buy into the decision is say, Here's who has the authority to make the decision, you know, given the laws and the governance and all that. Here's a process by which we went about making the decision. We didn't let everybody vote, but we got as many voices as we could. Or, hey, we did consensus, or, you know, whatever, but to describe the process. And then the third thing is to say, This is the criteria we used and maybe even the weighting of the criteria. And I'll give you an example. When I take a group out to on an expedition, the, the number one criteria for any decision is safety. Like, I want everyone to come down the mountain. The second criteria is let's get to the top of the mountain, but the first is safe. So if we don't get to the top, we don't get to—

right? Bad for business if you don't bring them home.

Right, right. And so, but, but I think that's the mistake people make is they'll tell people why they made it, but they won't help them. Because if we, if we got a little bit of a backstage glimmer of here's, here's the process by which they made the decision, here's the criteria. I think that would go a long way because then we would understand the leader's point of view. And I'll give you one other thing, Jim. We, um, on our podcast the other day, we had General Martin Dempsey on. He was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs under President Obama, and he said people always ask him about how decisions are made by the president. And he said, you know, picture going to the eye doctor, you know, and they go like this, you know, better, worse, number 3, number 4, number 4, number 5. And at some point you just go crazy and say, just give me the glasses. And And General Dempsey said, that's, you know, the president— I mean, they're getting all these lenses, you know, budget, military, intelligence, whatever, to make decisions. And he said, at the end of the day, you know, hopefully you have leaders that character is the final filter for hard decisions. And I thought, that's one of the best quotes I've ever heard. So anyway, that's my long answer to your, um, concise question. Sorry about that, right?

No, no, that's cool. And I know your emphasis on, you know, character there, and I think, uh, I think that's part of the issue I have. Well, a lot of the things that you talked about, part of the issues that I had. And, you know, without calling out names, and it's happening on a national level, happening on a local level, and I usually don't stray into commenting on political leadership too much on these, on these programs, but What's interesting, I think it's informative for leaders at any level and in business as well as in politics is this. Exactly what you just said. I don't like the idea of buy-in. And I understand and I appreciate the spirit that you use that word. I hate that word buy-in because then we're already in a position where usually, where a decision has been made and you're trying to get people to accept it. And to me, and it's not a clever play on word, but I say, how about ask-in? Early and often. Get people involved, and that's what you said, get people involved in the process. And I think that's where a lot of political leaders, especially— I hate to say it, but especially some local leaders across the country, maybe they haven't faced something this great. So we've got to give a little bit of benefit of a doubt, right? But still, in that area, I read a couple of stories, for example, about responses to retail operations., right? And then the businesses were pushing back, and chambers of commerce were pushing back, and said, look, just come and ask us. We had policies in place, and I saw that too. I saw that here on a local level. I saw a lot of amazing response from small businesses, particularly, that were already taping off their floors, they were already putting up plexiglass, they were disinfecting on a regular schedule, long before there were any orders or edicts to do so. So if you involve your constituencies, and I believe at all levels, you know, because sometimes, you know, you might be the CEO of a 10,000 person operation, sometimes it's the janitor who sees a problem you might not ever anticipate, right? So if you can get that input, then you don't have to get people to buy in as much. I mean, sure, there's going to be people that disagree with decisions. I support you 100% on that.

But I think there's an opportunity for the leaders to frame things better. I mean, if we take the pandemic, I think most people would say, hey, this bug is going to be around until there's a vaccine and/or treatment. I mean, period. I mean, that is not going to go away, that, you know, that risk. At the same time, I mean, you cannot keep, you know, and that's, you know, 12 to 24 months from now. At the same time, you cannot keep society completely closed down, you know, for that long. So how do you mitigate the risks across things? So we we've talked about flattening the curve, and that's to keep from overwhelming, you know, healthcare. But at the same time, you know, when we think, hey, when we— when is it okay to open up and get back to normal? Well, the risk is still going to be there. So, you know, we've got to figure out how to, how to do that. And again, I don't think the leaders have really framed it and said, hey, that risk is there. I mean, the only thing that's going to mitigate it is therapy and vaccine. On the other side, we have to, we have to, you know, have a functioning society. So in the meantime, we got to figure out how this society functions differently. And, and, and it's, you know, and I, again, I think they're confusing and thinking, hey, when things open, then it's going to be safe. And, and I don't think that's the case. And again, I think that translates back to the business world. Most of the leaders these days are really trying to figure out You know, how do I make these decisions? How do I create white space? How do I take a step back to figure out what's the right thing to do? And you said it, people support what they help create. If people have some say-so, they're going to buy in. And when they don't feel like it, they don't. I was on a webinar with 1,000 other people and our governor, and all these people were chiming in in the chat. And saying, you know, how do I get involved in that committee? How do I get involved in that committee? And there was no response, you know, from, from the governor, the chief of staff. It was like you're pretending like you're listening, but you're really not listening.

No, I hear you. We had a similar thing here in the Northeast. I've heard this from a couple of states, uh, you know, because of my involvement in my community here, uh, I watched a couple of the live streams that, that some of our officials, you know, promoted. And they promoted them with the promise that they were going to pay attention to the comments, ask your question, bring your questions. This is the forum, right? This is the forum. And I swear they never— and, you know, and it's not easy the first few times you do live streams. I mean, you see my eyes darting back and forth. I'm looking for, you know, it takes a little getting used to. But they, they have a staff to do that as well. And it's amazing that they never addressed any, any of the issues that were coming up in the comments. There's another responsibility too I want to touch on, uh, because you, you hit this. Sometimes, you know, sometimes it does feel lonely at the top. And a lot of the leaders I work with, especially executives, when we get them in a room where they can just be human beings with each other, right, one of the things that they often express is, you know, I'm trying to express compassion. I think I do. I think I'm a caring person. But they don't always appreciate how hard I'm working. And I think there is, where we talk about leadership at all levels, if I'm on the front lines, then I need to know and appreciate that If leaders are sincerely interested in hearing our opinions, and we have the opportunity to voice them, that doesn't necessarily mean that my particular idea is going to be the one that's implemented. And we have to accept that process, right? There might be better ideas that are in competition. My idea might be a good idea, but not right now, right? So there's a lot of things I think we need to appreciate to show leadership from the frontline and appreciation for— but again, people, they have to be sincere. And I always say, if you don't care, don't bother, right?

Well, you said something key. You said how it made you feel. And as leaders, we go about a lot of what we do, and it's about, here's what I want people to do. Here's what I want them to think. We don't often take the time to say, when I leave the room, quote unquote, how do I want people to feel? Yeah, just like, you know, the governor that got on the call the other day. I, I doubt that she said, you know, before, um, she got on there is, hey, one of my objectives is I want— I'm sure her main thing was, I want, I want everybody to know this information, I want to answer these specific questions. I don't think it was, here's how I want people to feel, I want them to feel like they're in good hands, good governance, they've got to avoid— I, I I doubt she thought about that. And, and I think, you know, and not to cast stones, I think that's where we always get wrapped up. We're so busy, we, we want to get stuff done, we have this bias to action, we don't think about it. Because you made the comment about compassion and empathy, that's, I think, where it comes from, is being intentional.

No, absolutely. And, you know, sometimes, uh, urgency can get in the way of that. And I You know, I appreciate that. However, I think that's one of the responsibilities we accept when we accept— and you know, I think you and I are singing in harmony on this anyway— leadership really has nothing to do with a position of authority. But it's nice when people in position of authority are also, you know, genuine leaders, right? And part of the responsibility— Mama never said it was going to be easy. Part of that responsibility when you take on those positions is You don't have the luxury of excuses when it comes to that. When you, you know, when people— and I believe we need to pay attention. We really— that's part of what we preach around here a lot of the time, this sense of awareness externally and internally. I need to have an accurate sense of how people are perceiving me. I might think I'm acting in a caring fashion, but if the people aren't getting it, then I have to figure out where that disconnect is. That's my responsibility.

Yeah. Oh, I learned the hard way more than a few times that my intentions didn't matter, right? Right. You know, my words and deeds mattered. My, you know, I had the noblest of intentions, but, but it did not matter if I screwed up through words and deeds. And I did. Um, that didn't matter. And, and I think that's a, a brutal reality, you know, that we, we have to confront. And, um, you know, and that gets back to what everybody's talking about these days is resiliency. And, you know, I put a question out there on social media today, you know, is resiliency a decision? Um, I mean, you know, if we say, hey, it's about getting back up when you get knocked down, well, to me that's a decision. Um, grit, which is also getting talked about a lot these days, I think is an action, you know, sustained determination and perseverance.

Yeah, yeah. And of course the two go hand in hand with each other, but you're right. Until someone makes a decision, there isn't too much we can do, you know, to help that person. But, um, how much do you think is— well, how much is impeding the process when— and again, I hate to say it this way because it's not just political leaders, but, you know, they're the most visible right now. Of course, we're in a national election cycle, which complicates it even further. But, you know, they like to get out there and make very definitive pronouncements. And of course, in a situation like this— and I'm sure this is— I'm interested in hearing this because you're your military background, because you of all people know that, uh, you can plan all you want, but conditions shift very rapidly and unexpectedly, right? Yeah. And after you've pronounced that, right, that bold thing— this is the way it is, this is what we know— and then 2 hours later it's entirely different, which is not an exaggeration, right, with this situation, um, then you're faced with a problem. You know, people are calling you out for what you thought was the truth yesterday, right?

Yeah, though they say no, no, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Um, so I quote the boxer— so what was it, uh, uh, Michael Tyson, right? He said everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, well, I— again, I think it goes back to, um, you know, being a little bit vulnerable, a little bit adaptable, and, you know, um And the combination of confidence and humility. I remember once somebody said to me, I was a director in a corporation, and I was, you know, trying to get promoted to vice president. And somebody said, "Jan, you need to stop saying 'I don't know' in meetings. You know, just make something up. Just answer it. And if you're wrong, you can correct it later. But you're not going to get promoted to vice president if you say 'I don't know.'" And I think, you know, to answer your question about why do leaders make pronouncements that are crazy, I think that's part of it. It's like, if I look confident and if I say something, I will have looked decisive and un-weak. And if I say I don't know or I have to get back with you, that might look wishy-washy. And who's going to want to follow somebody that says, "Eh, I'm not sure if we go right or left." Which is ironic, right?

Because the research is so clear in that area that leaders who demonstrate a little bit of, you know, you can't be crying in their soup all the time, but a little bit of vulnerability and uncertainty in themselves and their own decisions are the ones who consistently show up as the best performing leaders.

Well, I've seen it on the expeditions. The people that are the most confident are the most comfortable being vulnerable. And when they're vulnerable, it seems like it feeds and increases their confidence. And when they have that confidence, people follow them. And it's, it's just an interesting thing that I think they, they actually support each other.

Yeah, yeah. Hey, and make sure if you're watching on the live stream right now, if you got— and thank you so much, there's people popping in and out here. If you got questions, comments, ideas you'd like to share, just post them in the comments on YouTube or Facebook and And if you've got questions for Jan particularly, just put them in there and we'll make, we'll make sure we get to them as quickly as we can. Yeah, that idea of confidence, that's always a complicated issue, isn't it? And I mean, I get asked that question a lot. And, you know, in spirit of full disclosure, I'm glad to share this with you. That's continually one of my biggest struggles in life. And people sometimes are surprised when I say that. But because of my background, because I started this whole adventure as a drug addict, and somebody who, you know, really didn't value my life at all. Drug addicts generally are not people that have a whole lot of self-confidence. So I had to learn that process. And I don't think I'm going to live long enough to really see the finished product, but that's okay. It's an enjoyable process as we go along once we learn to embrace it. But there's a lot of misconceptions about confidence, and I believe one of the most dangerous ones, and it goes hand in glove with what you just said, is people who, they base their self-confidence on a surety of an outcome, right? Or I had an interesting guest on the other day, younger person who said on validation, right? There's a whole generation that based their sense of self-confidence, self-esteem on validation. Now, those things are tricky because first of all, you're not always going to get the results you're looking for. You're not always going to get the validations you're looking. So to me, it's my idea is that you need to base genuine self-confidence on your training and preparation, knowing that you're, you're prepared to be in the fight, you deserve to be in the ring whether you win, lose, or draw, right? I mean, yeah, I'm way off base, are we singing in harmony?

No, I think, you know, what I've seen with, um, you know, particularly special operations folks is their confidence comes completely from their competence. Yeah, you know, they did this job, then they got promoted, and they got— so they know everybody's job. Sometimes captains on submarines will say, you know, I feel really in command because I know every single person's job. I think it gets trickier, you know, kind of in the business world when you're in charge of people where you don't know all their jobs, where that confidence has to come from somewhere else. And one of the things I remember when I became a salesperson for in the medical industry is, and we called on doctors, is until I felt like I knew everything about our product, I didn't have any confidence. And then at a certain point, I remember it happened after about 2 years of selling, that I was like, you, you know, okay, Mr. Cardiologist, Mrs. Cardiologist, ask me anything, just give it, you know, like, and, and what selling really taught me wasn't, hey, I knew all about Cardiology, it taught me to think on my feet.

Yeah.

And not make stuff up, but to, you know, rationalize things. Because the physicians would say, well, how do you know that? Well, it didn't matter what the study said, the question they were asking wasn't in the study. I had to, like, I would walk it through, and it, on knowledge of anatomy and physiology. And, and, and that was the fun stuff. And I think a lot of that's carried over. Is, you know, that ability to, you know, sort of think on your feet and engage and have a discussion with someone and not make pronouncements, but to, you know, get there together.

Well, that's further complicated in our society, right, by this expectation of— well, it's kind of two expectations— the expectation of the instant expert, right? Yeah, you know, hey, I read that, I read that article on Facebook, now I know everything about coronavirus, right? Or like you said about, you know, that, that boardroom experience where, uh, someone's on the spot and you, you make something up. I always rankled at that. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm no angel. I'm not saying I never did that in my life. We all do from time to time. But boy, I've caught myself with that because, uh, I don't know, I was kind of blessed. Uh, my mom would appreciate that, or she'd spin in her grave, one or the other. But I never got away with anything. And I used to think that was so awful, but I realized what a blessing it was because I learned how to say, you know, geez, I really don't know. But to say it, to say it, I guess maybe the word is to say that even that with some authority, you know, I don't know, I'll go find out if that's what I'm supposed to do, or I'll defer to someone else who knows better than I do.

Yeah.

And I still believe that, that, um, I think that engenders a lot more trust than someone, because after a while, you know, the when the person's making it up all the time, you see through that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and, and, and at a certain point, you know, saying, I don't know and I don't care, I'm not looking into it.

We're going back into history with this one, but I always, I always love, you know, I love the historical movies where there's kind of a theme where the general officers would always say, it's so good to see you, well, I'll see you again in the morning. You know, that, that, yeah, That command dismissiveness, I just, I wish I could. Yeah, yeah, appreciate your effort. We'll see you again tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah. Well, my, my experience with generals is, um, you know, it was always, um, they'd lean back in their chair and they'd take the general pose, you know, like this. Oh yeah, lean them back like that. It was a very, you know, like, I'm in charge, I command the room, and And basically you knew they were going to ask questions till you couldn't answer them. Like they'd say, well, what's the range of this? And how many rounds a minute does that enemy's weapon fire? And you know, what's the kind of ammunition? You know, and they would ask until you didn't— you'd go, I don't know, sir, I'll have to get back with you. And then they were happy. Oh yeah, yeah, like, okay, like sounds like my master's from martial arts.

But I remember one, one particular time when Um, I, I paid for a very expensive private lesson with this guy, and he kept asking me questions the whole lesson, you know. What are you doing here? What's this for? What's that for? And I finally, I said, look, man, I said, I paid you a few hundred bucks to be here. I thought you were going to give me the answers. And he laughed. He said, what good would that do you, right?

Yeah.

And, and I appreciate it. I understand. I understood what he was doing. And, and, uh, from that moment forward, really adopted that in my teaching practice, right?

We can—

that's a very powerful tool to ask questions and, and bring— yeah, bring people forward that way.

Socrates, right?

Yeah, yeah, I know.

It's nothing new.

Nothing we talk about is new. It's not rocket surgery. Yep, right?

Yep.

Oh man. Hey, I see we're— I guess we're almost out of time. What else would you like to add for us today? I mean, and especially, you know, let's, let's wrap things up with this idea of— I love to— well, I love everything that you're teaching, but I'm particularly inspired and, you know, really feel connected in two ways. This idea of character in leadership, which is something that's— God, it's so clouded these days. And I've kind of taught myself not to be as judgmental because I know there's tough situations where people's character is challenged. And it may look like someone's acting with good character from one angle, and then from the other angle, not so much, you know. There, I think, I do believe there are some absolutes, but there are also a lot of gray areas in leadership, right? Or something, something that looks a little, a little off to some people may actually be a strong act of character when you really break it down, right? So can you share a little bit more about your ideas about that importance? And then if you could touch a little bit on the resilience for us too. I love that thing. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, character You know, I define it for one thing.

Well, you know, I go back to the ancients. I mean, they would define it through virtues. They would say, you know, well, the first— Aristotle would say the first virtue of all has to be courage. Well, what's courage mean? And then there's justice and humanity, transcendence, wisdom, all those virtues from the ancients, right? All You know, the character traits emanate from all those. I think what's important, you know, when we think about character is to think about what is it that you hold dear, that's worth fighting for, you know, that you're really passionate about. And then, you know, what are the character traits that will help you support and live those values and not compromise those? You know, I talk to a lot of young people that are transitioning out of the military and, you know, they always think about what job should I get, what industry, what company? And I always say, well, start with your values. I mean, what is it that you value? And then the next question is, you know, for whose good do you serve? I mean, who are your people and what do they, expect. And, and at the end of the day, I think there's always going to be a yin and a yang in all this, in, in whether it's business or in life. And I think part of it is, on one side is, is passion and competence, you know, or we might call it drive. And on the other side is compassion and fairness, um, the way that we interact and, and work with people. So there's, you know, achievement and results and getting stuff done and moving the needle. And then there's how you go about it with and through other people. And I think we, you know, that's life is to figure that out as you go. And, you know, as Simon Sinek said on our show the other day—

Marcus Aurelius compared to Caligula.

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

But, but the, the thing is, it's a journey, and, and, you know, we are never gonna— we're never gonna get there. This is a— there is no there. Um, amen.

Amen. Perfection is not a destination, it's a never-ending process. Yeah.

And, and, and that ties into kind of what I would leave the listeners with, is, you know, when we talk about character and virtue and values and, and all those things that, you know hopefully you're making notes in some sort of journal about ways that you're trying to become a better person, is, you know, looking at what's going on in the world around us. And it's been changing since you were born. Um, it's changing rapidly now. Businesses are adjusting because if they don't, they will not survive. They will go out of business. I think all of us need to be thinking that same way as businesses, whether you're an entrepreneur entrepreneur or not, to think in what I think the world is going to be, how do I position myself that I provide more value than I cost? How do I serve?

If you're not willing to serve, if you're not willing to bring value, then what's the point? What do you have to offer?

But I think we've got to figure— I mean, if businesses are reinventing themselves at rapid pace, Yeah, are we sitting around watching Netflix? Are we using that time to figure out, well, what— how do I need to adapt and morph and change so that I can, you know, take care of my family, you know, have a fulfilled life, you know, all those different things? So again, on the self-reliance side, I think there's a personal responsibility. I also think there's a societal responsibility that we're going to have to figure out, um, you know, How do we create a better society than we have so that people have that opportunity to be self-reliant and pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

I always appreciated that thread through your philosophy that self-reliance is not displacing healthy interdependence and cooperation.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah. Jan, always it's a pleasure, pleasure to have you back again. I do hope you do this semi-regularly with us.

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate your, your demeanor and your thoughtful questions and, you know, putting out a great product for people to think about. I mean, that's what you're doing. You're like the yoga teacher; you're giving our mind a workout.

Well, you're too kind, and I do appreciate it. Make sure people understand how to get in touch with you again: selfreliantleadership.com, right?

Yeah.

And of course, you're available on LinkedIn and all those good places. And I'd be remiss to say, right now, if you're watching, Oh, and also, if you're watching on the replay, still contribute your comments and questions and whatnot. And if you have a question for Jan, just put @janrutherford and we'll make sure he gets it, and I'm sure he'll respond back to you. You see scrolling there a Bitly, SLM Black Belt Free. Right now our Black Belt membership's usually $29.95. We're offering that for free, and it'll stay free as long as you stay active. And I think the best part of that is our monthly live call. We all get together and share some ideas, and we've got people calling from as far away as Africa, Mexico, the Caribbean. So it's, it's a really exciting, exciting meeting. So come on and join that, and I think you get some free stuff too. I don't remember. So, Jan, once again, thank you so much. Really appreciate you being with us today.

And thanks, Jim.

Be in touch again soon, huh?

Yep.

All right, thank you.