What price should you pay for your political associations?

It's challenging today as we're working so hard to bring people together here at the network. There are a lot of forces trying to separate and divide us. And I talk a lot about these divides. We have cultural divides, generational divides, racial divides, and maybe worst of all today, political divides. People are allowing politics to break up families, to destroy collaborations, and make it very difficult for us to live and work together. I feel very passionately about this. This is something we need to get past. It's fine for us to disagree. In fact, I encourage it, and sometimes it's, it's really healthy to turn up the heat. I've learned through experience that, you know what, sometimes the best idea is not your idea or my idea, but it's a third idea that's going to emerge if we can respect one another and we can engage in constructive debate. And sometimes even a little healthy argument. Today's guest, Jason Hewlett, ran headlong into this political issue, and he shouldn't have. His message is not about politics. I'll let him share more about that in just a minute. But he did participate in what was perceived as a political rally, and he's paid a price for that. Now we're gonna talk about that today and expose that. This may ruffle some feathers. I hope it doesn't. I hope this is spirit that I'm intending to bring this to you with today is one so we understand one another. And that we can hopefully bridge this divide, work together to make this world a little bit better place. Okay? So I hope you'll join me today for this conversation as I welcome my new friend, Jason Hewlett.

All right.

My new friend, Jason Hewlett, who is really good at getting himself into a lot of trouble lately. Jason, why don't we start with that? Because, you know, it's funny, and, you know, in the spirit of full disclosure, because people don't realize we've been talking for the last half hour, right? You know, both of us have been through experiences where— I don't know if you want to call it guilt by association or something— but you take advantage of opportunities and you're out there sharing a positive message. And I'm couching a little because I want you to tell the story. And wham, there you go, you're right in the middle of a controversy that you didn't look for, you didn't ask for, and you probably shouldn't be in the middle of, right?

Yes, sir. It's been a wild experience, brother. And I appreciate us even getting to talk about it because I never in a million years thought this is where I would be. I mean, in 2024, I was just merrily going about my way as the middle-of-the-road guy that anybody could hire and have at every event. And I've been doing that for 25 years.

I get what you're saying. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, doing every event that came along and happy to take them. And one event came along that I did not know that it would be such a lightning rod. I knew when I heard about it that it might ruffle some feathers, but I didn't know what was coming. I was invited to be a part of the Tucker Carlson tour where he went across America to stadiums and really he was just trying to unite people. He was being censored apparently in Canada and other places. And so he just decided to go and say, hey, I can't say things online without them censoring me, so let's go try it out live. And then I got to open one of the shows, and the opening of that went so well that they asked me to come along for all the other tour stops, which was not expected at all. And I was deeply in trouble quickly by many of my peers and clients as well. My clients got very upset. I didn't realize this was such a public venture, brother. I thought I was just going around doing arenas for 10,000 to 20,000 people at a time. But no, social media, And the actual media got hold of it. Pretty soon I was being reviewed by Rolling Stone, Washington Post, and a lot of things changed in my life real quick.

Yeah. The COVID of the Rolling Stone. And they tried to take a shot at you.

Well, it wasn't— well, yeah, I guess it was. Was it a cover? I don't know.

No, no, no, no. That's— I'm dating myself. That's the old song, right?

Yeah.

Commander Cody was Lost Planet Airman. I actually saw it live twice. That's how old I am. So.

Okay, yeah, no, it was some article within, but I'll tell you, it's wacky to be a part of Rolling Stone after so many years in music and comedy and entertainment, and now all of a sudden I'm being reviewed for how bad I am at performing. That was an interesting thing to see.

Well, the thing that surprised me about the whole controversy was this, you know, we've been following you for a while. Your message is nothing but positive. It's nothing but unifying. And as you said before, we started recording. You know, had that been, uh, you know, a Democrat, um, event or Kamala Harris event or something, you, you would have been there too, right? I mean, I think, I think for a lot of us, um, it doesn't matter what people's politics are. Our message is not— it shouldn't be controversial, not in that world anyway. I mean, I'm sure we're gonna piss some people off. I mean, we all do, but it just, right, it just shouldn't it shouldn't have had that much controversy. What bothers me is why there's so much hatred, right, around people's political opinions. I mean, we should be able to have differences. I should be able to differ with you. There's a lot of things that, you know, you and I, I'm sure, are going to differ on as we get to know each other a little more. For one thing, it's kind of cool that you're, you know, you're a very staunch Christian guy, and I don't even know if I can officially call myself an atheist because I'm not that passionate about it. We seem to get along fine. You know, it's, it's right. It's a different world.

It is. Yeah. And the fact that it goes from, like you said earlier, it's like anger is okay. It's okay to be a little upset with somebody or how—

sometimes.

Yeah, it's helpful in some cases. But when it goes to hatred, and then it actually goes to working against that person's belief system or attacking them personally, or those types of things has become interesting to be a part part of that cycle. And I never knew that that was the direction life was going to be for me. So to go from somebody that could be booked for every event to suddenly being the guy that now they're saying, "Oh, we can't have you because of who you associated with," as well as receiving messages from very dear friends saying, "I can't believe you chose to do this, and so therefore we cannot be friends," or, "You are wrong, and therefore we cannot talk anymore." Or the other side of it is, you are wrong, and I'm going to tell you why you're wrong, and you don't get to say anything in response. That's wild after so many years of me saying, well, I'd love to hear what you have to say, even if I don't agree with it at all. I'm happy to listen, and I'm happy that you get to decide that because we're all Americans here. So that's where we're at.

Well, you know, I think that, you know, the situation you're in right now, I really believe with all my heart, is temporary. And I think if nothing else, I hope so. I think a lot of this has gotten to the boiling point, you know, where now maybe people will start to reassess these things and be able to engage even, you know, yeah. And like you said, it's, it's, we don't need to agree to get along. I don't have to hate because I disagree with you. Okay. So there's a lot of that. So I think that's a good, that's a good place to pivot a little bit because ultimately, you know, what's, what's going to get you back where you want to be. Not that you're not in a good place now. I think, like I said, I don't want to beat that drum too much. Let's talk about what your message is, because your message is so positive. Your message is so useful, so practical. And frankly, it doesn't matter. Well, I shouldn't say it doesn't matter at all. I'm sure there can be some extreme ideological, perspective that is going to go off the rails for you. But I think you'd have to press, right? You have something to say, you have something positive to say for everybody. Let's focus on that. What's the core of your message? What are you trying to share with people?

Well, I mean, ever since I started, I've been in the entertainment business, just like yourself from your history. It sounds like you've had entertainment in your blood. And so the first reason you do that is to spread joy. And so it was just a help people to feel a little bit happier about their day and take them away to a special place. And so when I get the call to show up at a stadium, that's a lot of nice people to be able to perform for, whether they agree with you politically or religiously or not. I mean, it's like, let's just make them laugh. Let's laugh about ourselves. Let's laugh about what's beautiful about life. And I do that through music and comedy. It's very much like if my act is like if Weird Al Jim Carrey and Billy Joel had a baby together. Like, it doesn't— obviously it doesn't make sense, but it's, it's— I'm doing parody.

Look at your YouTubes, it'll make sense.

Yeah, I'm doing parody. I sound like the artist generally, and it's over-the-top silly, and it's always been G-rated, family-friendly, Las Vegas quality, which is a small niche. And that's why I've worked so long, and I think it's been successful. Like I say, Tucker Carlson calls or Donald Trump calls, that's great. I'm there for that arena. If Kamala called, I'd have been there for that arena. Next thing I knew that I'm embroiled in this thing where all of a sudden it was like, wow, if you're preaching joy, how could you be there? And that was what was so wacky to be a part of that experience, because I preach this message that's called The Promise. Which is the promise is to share your gifts and to share them with the world no matter who is listening, no matter if anybody cares or not. And so I am not going to hold back because somebody says, "Oh, you shouldn't be on that stage." I felt that it was important to be there, and I am glad that I was. I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't return back and say, "No, I won't do that." I probably would have gone in with my eyes open a little more, done some more research, but yeah, that is the overarching message is: What is your promise? How do you keep it? And share it with the world.

Yeah, that's a little strange though, too, isn't it? When people say, ah, sheesh, you should dial it back and look at it differently. Well, first of all, you weren't endorsing any particular candidate or any particular even ideology there, right?

Not at first. No, not at first. Eventually, after the tour, after I saw so many people being so upset about it, I thought, why are they so mad? And then I started doing education, which I had never delved into it. And by the end, yeah, I was like, I endorse a particular person in that Oh man, that was the nail in the coffin of many friendships and many gigs. So yeah, eventually I got there. But I think I was forced there because I thought, why is there so much hate from the place that says we should love?

Yeah, there it is. I mean, that's— now you see, now you're going to drag me into this whole mess too, right? Like I told you though before, I've been there. I was, you know, I was involved, more involved directly in politics a few years ago. Was accused of being a Nazi sympathizer because I was at a rally. For people who don't know the story, and most people won't, I was asked to speak at a rally to promote nonviolent political discourse, right? I thought, that's pretty innocuous. How much trouble can I get into there? But I did smell there was trouble coming. And what happened was somebody who interviewed me afterwards from one of the newspapers around, they had asked— there was a group of neo-Nazis that the promoters had given everybody a voice, right? So, you know, they asked, "What do you think about these guys being able to talk?" And I said, "Let them talk." I said, "You don't kill mold by, you know, closing the basement and hiding it in the dark. You kill mold by letting the sun shine on it." And I said, I think that's what— somehow that got twisted into me being a neo-Nazi sympathizer. I was insulted by it. You know, my mother's family came from Poland. They encountered the Nazis firsthand. They encountered the Soviets firsthand. I've heard those stories. Many people in her family suffered. Everything was taken from them. They came here to find a better life, right? And literally, a lot of my family was killed there, killed and imprisoned. And so now for those people to accuse me of that, to say it was insulting is is not doing it justice, right? But having said that—

That takes my breath away, honestly, man. Wow. How'd you get through it? How'd you get through it?

Time. Yeah, time. Time and belief. And you know, like what you and I were talking about before, and it's what both of us help people do, right? And that's what triggered this, right? We can't just back down and let people have the higher ground all the time. And it doesn't mean, and I think you feel the same way in a little bit, I'm getting to know you. I don't need to knock somebody down to elevate myself, right? You know, I have enough work to do to try to elevate myself at all times. One of the greatest gifts I learned in my life as a martial artist is perfection is not a destination. It's a never-ending process, right? So the more we can engage in that process, and I'm not gonna live long enough to be satisfied with where I am, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, I've got work to do. I don't need to be knocking other people down. And it always is troubling to me when people take that route. I understand it rationally, intellectually. I study it. I get it. I understand it. Doesn't make it right. So, when I see, you know, people being put through what you're being put through, that's troubling. But keep on keeping on, right? I mean, You know, here's another martial arts— I'm gonna do all my martial arts clichés— knock down 7 times, get up 8, right?

Yeah.

And yeah, your message is so powerful. I'm not worried about you.

Well, that's nice. I am a little concerned, you know, when you lose all your holds and all your gigs and a lot of your friends, you start to question, have I done something wrong? But then otherwise you realize perhaps I've done something so right that the pendulum needs to just swing back and we'll eventually meet in the middle again. But I can tell you that it's interesting when your message is used against you, and I never have experienced that where— obviously I speak about promises, making promises, keeping promises. I like to say, why set a goal when you can make a promise? And not to say goals aren't important, but you know, why?

No, I'm not a big fan of goals either, so I kind of get it.

Okay, okay, so like Some people are concerned when I say that, but I say, look, you know, goals are particulars, but promises are proclamations. So what was interesting about this experience was people would contact me privately, mostly, some in the comments, but mostly private, and say, if you're the promise guy, you have broken the promise because you're associating with these people or because you're doing these types of events, and then submitting my name for ethics violations in my Speaking Association, which I've been in the Hall of Fame for that for almost a decade as one of its youngest members, and stuff that was really disturbing to think, at what point can you determine what my promise is for me? We all have our own promises.

Yeah.

And obviously we have a promise to our country, I think. We have a promise to our work, promise to our family. But how can you determine what my promise is to me without us ever even having a discourse. Like, I just found that really, really arrogant. That was the word. It was like, can you honestly say that you think you know me that well, that I'm breaking some kind of promise that you don't even know I made or I didn't make? And that was where I was like, wow, this, this thing's a bit convoluted. So how can we spin it, right? How can we make this a positive experience? And for me, the The past would have said I would have apologized to that person and said, "Hey, you know what? I'm thinking through that more. I appreciate your help in getting me to a place. I'm going to go, I'm going to rescind, and I'm going to go back." But Jim, at this level, at this place, I was like, there are so many people telling me that I am in the wrong that I must do the research, the self-work, and the self-worth to say, Can I stick with my guns here? Can I dig in deeper? Can I stand for something? Maybe because I really haven't that much. And that became more of a promise for me to be like, well, if they really questioning my promises, I've never been a guy to break very many that I know of, at least to the people that I have associated with. Maybe it's time for me to stand for something and let them just beat the crap out of me. And that's okay.

Yeah. Well, the interesting thing is so too is I don't hear you questioning the people who hold the opposite perspective. And I'm choosing my words carefully. I'm purposely choosing my words carefully in this context because that's what it's all about. I think we're like-minded that way. I'll listen to anybody. It doesn't mean I'm going to agree with them. Silence doesn't connote agreement sometimes. But it's always interesting to learn about the other perspectives and the changes. And I know you've been through a lot of changes. In your life. You know, I certainly have. It's an amazing— it's an empowering practice to be able to look in the mirror first. And I know in talking to you now, right, when we hear words like this directed against us, I think both of us will take it to heart and we'll look in the mirror first. But then after consideration, yes, there are times when we have to say, "Look, you know what? Even if I'm not calling out the other person is wrong, I'm right. And to me, some of the most difficult questions, they're not right or wrong. Those are right or wrong questions are usually pretty easy. It's the right versus right questions that really we struggle with as a society in particular. You know, that's what, that's what a lot of politics is all about. I hate the, I hate the hate that's associated with it. We've got to get past it. We've got to get to a point where we have some kind of dialogue again. And I think if nothing else, this experience is an opportunity to open that up again, right? But having said that, I didn't want to let something go. You mentioned losing friends over this, and I know this is so cliché to say this, but no, you didn't lose any friends. And it's one of the, I think, risks of our world, right? When we expose ourselves, expose our ideas and our passions publicly, We're open to a lot of scrutiny, but we're also open to a lot of people who will jump on the bandwagon and praise us when things are going well, right? When everybody's in agreement. It's when the proverbial crap hits the fan that things get tough. That's when you find out who your friends are, right? That's how you find out who your true supporters are. So I don't know, anybody that's bailed on you obviously doesn't know you.

That's well said, and I appreciate that. And I can I can candidly say that the people that have left or have derided, you know, I feel sad for them. Because I don't feel like that—

It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt either. That's something I should have said too, right? It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when you see these people.

Yeah, it totally hurts. It's like, geez, wow, that's painful that you think that. And that's enough for us not to be friends, or that's enough for you to attack me on social media or in my life or threaten me or— yeah, I mean, for the people that feel that they are compromised or that they're vulnerable, everybody feels a level of that throughout their lives. And it doesn't matter what we look like, our race, our creed or anything. But when somebody questions your integrity, yeah, that hurts, right? And so, yeah, that's where it's been.

No, and it's amazing, the— you know, I, I think I trust you already enough. Um, I'm not going to calculate, say— I know we come from a little bit different worlds, but hey, I'm a guy from the street. You got to take what I— what you get, right? Um, it's amazing the incredible exaggeration of the weight, mass, and volume of cajones that happen behind a keyboard, right? I mean, it's just crazy. People would not have even want to entertain a discussion. And I've had very dear friends— it's funny that online, you know, there's a whole different level, it's a whole different escalation. Then when we get together face to face, I said, you said that about— and both sides, trust me— how could you say that? You wouldn't say that face to face. You wouldn't say that if this person is in a room, you know. And you have to understand, and I think particularly— I'm falling into the leadership mode for a second— but particularly leaders have to understand that, you know, your words mean something. And if you're going after— you can have your opinions, you can have your feelings, but man, when you start going after people, uh, you gotta understand that those are people you're gonna have to live and work with, right?

That's right.

Or they're just gonna bail on you because of what you said.

Well, yeah, yeah. And that's, uh, since you're on leadership, I, I also I also teach leadership. I say that your leadership promise is to identify, clarify, and magnify the signature moves of the people you lead. So discovering and helping them see their gifts and their strengths and equally what's lacking. That's the hardest part of the leadership is to not just throw it off in a Slack channel or something in front of everybody, but to say, hey, let's have a one-on-one. Let's talk about some things that I'm concerned about. And this is going to sting. And guess what? You get to do the same for me. Let's clarify for each other how we can be better leaders together. That's a wonderful leadership opportunity.

It is. And you know what? You just triggered a thought because I'm going to go after you hard. Well, first of all, I wanted to go after you. Talk about controversy. Can I really? I'm going to slam you on one thing.

Yeah, slam me.

That Elvis thing you do. That's pretty perverse, man. In fact, when I first saw it, I said, Elvis, if I had watched it with the sound on, I thought you were ripping on Billy Idol.

But well, that's what, that's what I say. Go, this is Elvis on this side, but this is Billy Idol on the other side.

Cool.

You know, that's funny. No, I've been, I've been ripping on those, those faces for years, and obviously I don't have a low enough voice do any justice to Elvis or Billy Idol, but like, you know, when you rip on people, which I do, I have to rip on myself the most. And so I love to just make fun of artists, musicians, comedy, entertainers, speakers, you name it. But I also rip on accountants, IT guys, engineers, salespeople, leaders. I mean, I'm ripping on everybody because We have to stand within our own power and we have to stand within our frailty. And the comedy comes through the fact that we know that the IT guy doesn't want a hug and that he is the lifeblood of the business. So can we make fun of that? Can we make fun of the Elvises of the world that can do that one thing that nobody else can do?

But no, you cannot make fun of Elvis. That is blasphemy in my world, my brother. No, but I wanted to hit— would you, you know, you hit on something. This is what the thought that it triggered was, you know, as a Christian person, right, one of the lasting— the whole Judeo-Christian philosophy of this, I think, is one of the most beautiful parts of it, is the idea of forgiveness, right? The idea of forgiveness, allowing that the other person may have had, even in the most heinous situations, right? Imagining that the other person may have had some reason or cause or justification for what they did or what they said. And it seems that that's one of the things when we encounter a situation like this, isn't it odd that that's the first thing that people drop? You know, this spirit of, if nothing else, of forgiveness, even if I think you're a moron for what you said or whatever, right? Where have we lost that?

Yeah, no, that's very well said, and that's so absolutely true. That's the basis upon which it is founded to say, can you forgive that person? You know, the great commandments are love God above thyself and love thy neighbor as thyself, right? And so if you think, can I forgive the person that wronged me? Well, I think that the main challenge comes from forgiving yourself in the first place. That's mostly where it comes from. So as you begin to promise to forgive yourself more, you'll be able to forgive others easier. I'm ready for anybody that's interested in asking forgiveness, and I ask forgiveness all the time of folks, and I mean, I'm working on it. That's a really hard principle to embrace and to live. So yeah, you're spot on with that, man.

That's what it is for me, because I have to practice forgiveness all the time because I know I'm the only one that's right and everyone else is wrong. So I have to forgive all y'all because, you know, you're struggling there, you're struggling in your wrongness, and I have to be forgiving of that.

That's so funny. And yeah, I think that's it right there. I better call my therapist.

Right after I hang up with you, I gotta call my therapist. We got to work that out.

And you know, you deal with certain people that may take— they may not take the comedy out of that, and they may think like, oh, I guess that I am always wrong. So there are people that are like, they can't forgive themselves enough to ever be right. And that's a really sad place to get for a lot of people. When someone's strong like your own personality, there might be a lot of people like, I am always right and there are other people saying I'm always wrong. So then can we never come to a place where we are all just loving of one another and who we are and what we've got? So that's part of the promise.

You're going deep there. And that's, you know, it's funny, that's part of the reason I share, you know, my past experiences, because people are surprised when I say this, but the two biggest struggles I have in my life still, and I don't think I'll live long enough to fix either one of them completely, is That idea of self-forgiveness, putting down some of the old baggage and reconciling myself with the idea of being such a failed person that I was an addict and things like that. Those are heavy things. And confidence. People think I'm confident. I said, "No, I've learned to substitute courage for confidence." We can get into that another time.

Yeah, it's way deep, dude.

That's a whole different animal. But you're right, those are struggles. But I will say, you know, for what it's worth, for anybody that cares about it, is yeah, it's again a lesson from martial arts. Dojo is not a place for success, it's a place for failure. People don't realize that. We're gonna fall down all the time, and if we're not falling down enough, we've got to find a challenge that's gonna make us fall down again. And that's where we learn. There's a lot of joy in the pain, you know. I'm not talking about it in a masochistic sickistic sense. There's a lot of joy and revelation and self-discovery, and if we're willing to expose ourselves to the pain, the risk— and so, and you just did that in a big way. And that's why I'm— I know you have to jump, but, uh, yeah, that's you, man. You just, you just walked into the Coliseum, man. You walked in, you, you faced the lions.

I don't know if I survived, but I'll tell you, it was— I'd rather be in arena, and I'd rather be chewed up and spit out and beat up and even in some ways slaughtered, which is what it felt like, than never have had the chance at all. It's nice to not just have to sit and watch others play the game, and I have for a long time. And other times I've gotten to be the guy in that arena, and I love that. And you have to be— I remember Jerry West, a great basketball player. Yeah, he used to say, He said, "Hey, I always take the last shot because you have to be willing to be the one to miss it or to make it, and I'm willing to take either." And I just love the fact that we have those opportunities every single day, but so often we're keyboard warriors and then we're too scared once it comes to facing the challenge. So what is the true courage? What is the promise? The promise in this case for me was to step into a place that— I was unfamiliar with. I have crossed the threshold. I cannot get my old life back. It is too late, and I'm happy I made that choice. And I do pray and hope that those that were once a pal might come back, and if they don't, I wish them the best. I love them regardless.

That's it. That's it. I'd love to say that that is a perfect place to wrap it up, but let's talk really quickly about, you know, people that want to embrace your message, how do they get in touch with you? They call out?

Yeah, I'm on—

yeah, yeah. With your permission, I might sneak a clip of that Elvis thing in here somewhere too.

Oh, of course. Yeah. Hey, let's do it. You know, I'm on LinkedIn probably the most. So LinkedIn's a great spot. And then JasonHewlett.com is my website, but I'm on all the social media channels. But LinkedIn's the place. That's where we connected, man. I love that.

So, well, let's make this the first conversation, not the last one, huh?

I love that. It's great to chat with you. I admire what you've done with your life. I'm blown away by your story. Obviously, you're putting out a lot of good to the world, and I appreciate your time, talents, and gifts, and grateful for the opportunity to chat.

Well, thanks. Thanks for your kind words and thanks for your courage.