WTW 070 Dennis Snow

All right, I keep finding myself apologizing. I don't know if it's an apology, maybe a disclaimer, because I've had the, the pleasure of having so many good friends on the show lately as we rebooted Walking the Walk. And Dennis Snow is not only one of the most remarkable leaders you're ever going to meet, certainly one of the most remarkable leaders I've ever met, but we've, we've had a friendship for a while, Dennis. I was trying to look, it was, we were working with the same publisher. Yeah, years ago. Yeah, this says about 2010, 2009. I actually remember it because it was the year the Saints won the Super Bowl.

Yeah, whichever year that was. So that sounds right. That sounds 2008, 2009. Sounds about right when we first connected. Yeah, yeah.

Oh my God, we're older than dirt.

Yeah, no, we both look exactly the same as we, as we did back then.

Well, we are two good-looking men, that's for damn sure.

There it is.

Dennis is the author of Lessons from the Mouse. He's spoken all over the place, all over the world. He's just an amazing person. He has online programs that you need to investigate. I'd say his particular focus is in customer service areas and whatnot and leadership. But he does many, many other things too. And I'm going to let him tell you a little bit more about that. And most of all, he's one— we've been talking a lot about people who became leaders starting on the front lines and had opportunities at all levels. Well, Dennis is experience with Disney started when he was the pilot of a submarine, right?

Right, right. I drove— I can— my claim to fame is I drove a submarine that doesn't really go underwater. Uh, not a lot of people have that on their resume. Oh yeah, well, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, some people may remember that.

The important thing is that it came back out of the water.

That's the— yeah, yeah, hopefully.

Yeah, so yeah, but yeah, you started— you started your career, right? Yeah, how did you work? Tell us a little bit about how you worked your way up the, up the chain of command there.

I started working at Disney in 1979 for a summer job. You know, it was going to be a summer job, turned into a 20-year career, which is a very common story there. So yeah, I was working at 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea in Fantasyland. And then, you know, Disney is very much a promotion from within company. They look for, you know, the first sort of the first promotion is into a trainer position. So they look for people who are good at what they do from a technical side of things, but also had strong communication skills, you know, and promote them into trainer. And then, you know, from that position, looking for people who have technical skills, communication skills, leadership skills, and then they move them up into the first level of management, you know, the first official level of management and so on. So it was a very traditional track for me in the company. But I discovered that what I really— and this is one of the things I loved about working at Disney is there's so many things you can do. I discovered that I really loved the training side of things. That was, that was really my passion. So they have a division called the Disney University, which is the internal training arm of the company. When people join the company, they go through the onboarding process. They have other training programs, management training programs, and got into that and then managed that side of the business. And later on, through a series of moves, they spun off a division called the Disney Institute, where companies would come down and benchmark best practices with Disney. And I thought, oh, that sounds great. I would love to do that. And so I managed a division of that for several years. And that I just fell in love with. You know, sharing some of the Disney best practices with other companies. And then decided after I hit my 20-year mark, I said, that's a good round number. I was still relatively young. So if I totally screwed it up, I could go back. But I said, I'm going to go out on my own. And so that's when I developed the training and consulting and speaking business that I do now. And that's been a fantastic journey. And even through the challenges that we all know about that every business has gone through, it was still one of the best decisions I ever made. I always tell my wife, the best decision I ever made was marrying you, Debbie. The second best decision I made was going out on my own for this business. And yeah, so yeah, I have a great time. You know, you know how it is. It's a, you You know, owning your own business has its pitfalls, but it's very rewarding. It's very rewarding.

It, it is. You know, it's, it's interesting. I think the reason that I hear a lot for people not going into business for themselves, although more and more are these days at some, some way, shape, or form, but one of the things that I keep hearing is that there's a, a risk involved, right? And I remember, I remember going to a seminar for martial arts, uh, businesses years and years ago. And the guy had done his homework. He looked at all of us. He started asking, he said, how many members do you have? How many members do you have? And people would tell— say different things. He said, so okay. He said, how many people, when they got into this, you, you were afraid of, of failing? And of course everybody raised their hand.

Yeah.

And he said, here's, here's the thing. He said, when you work for somebody else, how many people does it take to fire you? And somebody raised their hand. They said one, I guess, right? And then he said, well, I just asked you how many members you, you have at your center or your academies, right? And he said, takes all of them to fire you.

Yeah, right.

And that was an interesting perspective. Yeah. He said, so does that make you feel a little bit better about the risk? I don't think anybody said yes, but, but it does make you kind of— it does.

You know, one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got when I was in college, I had a business professor He said, whatever job you have, look at it as training for opening your own business.

Amen. Amen.

That even, you know, even if you don't do it, it makes you look at what you do with an entrepreneurial mindset. And that's only going to help. But that stayed with me. Yeah, that really stayed with me when he said that. And so, you know, at the time I was driving submarines, you know, at 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

That's still cool, by the way.

It's long gone, but it really made me look at things in a different way. And I appreciate, you know, that's one of those moments that's frozen in time. I think we all have those, like the session that you mentioned. There's moments when you look back in your career where you say, that was a good piece of advice or information. And that was one of them for me.

No, you know, I hope that goes all the way in for everybody because I would consider you one of the leading experts in the world, especially in the area of customer service. Well, it's not just me saying that, right? A lot of people feel that way. But you had a frontline job where you experienced, you know, you gained experience in customer service firsthand. That's a lot different than somebody taking a couple of courses at college. And I'm not demeaning that at all, but I'm just saying that if you have that experience and, and you take it with you, um, and that's— I think that's the essential thing, isn't it? Don't forget where you came from. I mean, there's so many experiences, and even the smallest one can mean a lot later on.

I, I'm always appreciative of servers, you know, uh, front desk people in hotels. I'm always very appreciative of what they do because those jobs are hard. Yeah. Yeah. I always think everybody should be a server in a restaurant at some point in their lives because every moment is either making or breaking the experience for the guests. And, and they're hard jobs. And sometimes I think leaders forget that. They for— and one of the things that Disney did, and again, Disney isn't perfect. They've never been perfect. Okay. They've never been perfect. But one of the things they did and still do that I think really is a great thing. They, they have, for lack of a better term, a program where during busy times of year, they call it cross-utilization. Management goes out and works the frontline.

Shift, right? Sam Walter did the same thing.

Yeah, scooping ice cream, sweeping streets, cleaning toilets. Basically, they would put us where we couldn't hurt anybody, you know. If you, if you had, if you had an attractions background, they might send you back to that attraction. Um, but what it did was, A, it helped out during a busy time. All right, so there was a business value to that. But the real value for me was reminding you these are hard jobs that people have to come in every day and do. And I think a lot of times as leaders, we forget how much we should appreciate the people that are really the face of the company. You know, the—

Right, right.

They are the face. They're the brand. The frontline people, they are the brand of the company.

And I think also, I know, I know we're singing in harmony on this point, but I'd like to hear your take on it where, you know, we preach around here, we preach leadership at all levels all the time. You know, I'm reminded of my favorite waiter in the whole world. It was a little Italian restaurant that I used to eat at in Portland, Maine. I actually used to eat at like I did regularly when I had enough money in those days, right? But anyway, This guy was in the European mold. He was a career waiter. This is what this man wanted to do. This was his profession, and he took it very seriously that way. Right. And it was always just a wonderful experience. And he didn't, you know, he didn't treat us any differently than he treated the customers that were going to tip him huge amounts and whatnot. And to see that is amazing because, you know, whether you like it or not, you're a leader. Yeah, if we define it properly, right? You inspire people, right? You empower people around you. You guide the people around you. It doesn't matter what you, what your rank, your title, or your job position is. And I think that's a, that's a good mindset too. And I think getting people that are in management positions, higher-level management positions, down on those front lines also helps them to appreciate that, right? Where are your leaders on the front lines and how are they doing it? They don't have all the power and authority you do, and yet they're still inspiring people. Like I said, they're empowering the people around them. Usually informally and guiding them. I think that's critical.

And you're absolutely right that Mark Sanborn wrote a book. It was Leadership Is Not a Title. I'm trying to remember the—

but I think Lao Tzu actually said that a couple thousand years ago, but we've been stealing from him ever since.

It's a great book. And But it's, it's everybody should look at themselves going back to like that professor that I talked about, you know, look at whatever role you have as training for owning your own business. And, you know, your story reminded me of one time I was getting ready to do a presentation at a hotel and my shoes were a little scuffed, my dress shoes, and there was a shoeshine station in the lobby. And so I thought, you know, I've got time. I'm going to get my shoes shined. Well, this guy was amazing. He, you know, commented on the quality of the leather. He said, this is a nice pair of shoes. Here are some things you can do to— he could tell they were relatively new. But here's some things that you can do to keep them looking good all the time and lasting. And he just had this natural stream of discussion that was really engaging. You know, it wasn't like, I don't want to talk. It was, you know, pertinent information. And I thought, I'm going to, I'm going to basically double the cost of the, you know, with my tip because he was just so good. And my guess is, is that this gentleman makes a very good living because he sees himself as an ambassador of the organization, you know. And it was just, and it was funny, I mentioned him in my presentation. I said, you know, this, I told, I shared the story. And so later on in the day, there was a line waiting at his place. And so I got a kick out of that. But, but yeah, this was a guy who shined shoes for a living. But saw himself as an ambassador of goodwill.

You know, I'm a little upset with you, though, because when, you know, you were giving me advice early on, you know, when we met, I was still pretty early in this business. And you never told me I needed to check my shoes. I probably went out there with tough shoes.

Now they, you know, Yeah, people, you know, dressing up is a pair of jeans with only one hole in them, seems like now.

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, now that right now the jeans we have to buy are a couple hundred bucks a pair though.

Yeah, they look like, you know, they look like they've been through the wringer, you know.

I know the more you spend, the worse they look, isn't it? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'm old school. I still, I still like to roll with the Duluth brand. Yeah. Yeah, but I've stopped caring that much. No, you're right. So this, you know, that idea, I like what you're saying there too. And isn't that, that touches on that idea because some, and it's sometimes when we're working with salespeople, this whole idea of you're a leader whether you like it or not is a tougher sell to them. And part of it is because they'll say, well, I don't have any direct reports. You know, I'm out on my own. I'm a salesperson out on the road. I said, but no, you're doing the same things, aren't you? You're leading your customers hopefully to a good solution for them, right, or a good— fulfill their needs or their desires. And I said, you're doing the same thing again. You're inspiring them, you're empowering, you're guiding them. And you just hit that. Like, this guy, when you were telling that story, I said, that was inspirational to me. It's always inspirational when somebody cares about their craft enough and is willing to share. You'd think that's not important information, but it is. And not just to people like us— that sounded stupid— but We do have to be conscious of our appearance in front of audiences, right? It's a courtesy to them. It's the way I was taught, right? And for someone to take what would seem like something that isn't all that important and really showing that they care about it and offering expertise in that area, I mean, that— your story inspired me.

And, you know, he was a professional.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Probably the best word to use. And so whatever job you have, be a professional, you know, be the best at that job that you can be. And, you know, the other point that, that's connected to what you're saying is new people are watching you, you know. So, you know, I remember when I joined Disney, you know, I was, I was surrounded by other cast members, and they, their performance had an impact on me. And I think that's another thing to remember is that people joining the organization, they're watching, you know, they're seeing how other people are performing and what they're doing. And so that leadership mentality comes into play there as well. What are people—

without a doubt, you've heard about a doubt term, everything speaks, right?

Everything speaks. And so, as an individual in the organization, everything speaks from your attire, your appearance, to your behavior, to the tone of voice that you're using when you're talking to a customer, talking to a fellow employee. Other people are, you know, newer people are picking up cues of, "OK, what's this culture really, really like beyond the new hire training program that I just went through?" You know, they're taking cues from everybody around them. So again, looking at it from that perspective, I think, is important.

You brought up— scrambling to write some notes because you brought up some really interesting points. First of all, before we get too far off what you were talking about a few minutes ago, I remember Martin Luther King, one of my favorite quotes from him: you may be sweeping the street 'But sweep the street as Picasso painted.' Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah, you know, I thought that—

that's just a beautiful— yeah, beautiful quote. But the whole idea, I think you're touching on something, is I think it's critical. It's always been critical, more critical than ever right now, because we have— I think it's safe to say that we have arguably probably the most caustic culture that we've had in a long time.

I would agree. Yeah, I would agree.

And right, and This idea— thank goodness for my mom, who— she wanted me to be a diplomat. I don't know if I ever told you that.

I did not know that.

Yeah, Dad wanted me to be a contractor. That didn't take. Mom wanted me to be a diplomat, and so I ended up, uh, running around in pajamas for 30 years getting beat up, right? But anyway, yeah, this idea of diplomacy And for all the reasons you just mentioned, I think also very critically, you know, the greatest inspiration we can offer another person is our example. It doesn't have to be a grand gesture. And when you ask people what's most— because I always ask them every workshop, every presentation, you know, I ask people to think about the 10 people that inspired you the most. I usually ask them to go to the bottom of the list and read, but I'll tell you now, even the top positions, because you— it used to be they would put somebody famous, you know, 1, 2, 3, and then, yeah, down at 7, 8, 9, you'd start to get teacher or parent or a friend or a co-worker. And now a lot of people are more conscious of putting those up higher, which is kind of cool.

That's interesting, right?

But this idea of diplomacy where you don't know how you're affecting the people around you, and, and you've got to deal with those folks, right? And too often these days I guess the first reaction is either to say something snarky, not be careful about what you're saying. And I'm not saying, you know, you don't want to be inauthentic, but for instance, wearing your political views on your sleeve all the time at work, or, you know, any position like that, or social position that you can be right doesn't mean that I'm wrong, right? And you don't know who you're going to— I hate to use the word offend because I don't think we have a right not to be offended, but to be off-put, you know, and especially when you're working closely with people. A little diplomacy goes a long way, I believe. Well, you think I'm way off base?

No, no, I think, I think you're on target. And it's being receptive to differing ideas, right? Um, and not taking everything as a personal affront.

Uh, yeah, yeah.

And, and what do you mean by that?

What are you trying to say?

Yeah, yeah, let's step outside.

Are you saying I was taking personally. Yeah. Um, but I, right, I mean, those are the kinds of arguments you hear.

Yeah. And, and when you get the diplomacy, um, it's a breath of fresh air right now because we're so attached to social media, which is built on argument. You know, it's, it's built on taking a strong position one way or the other. And so we've become very used to the— this negativity, yeah, coming across. And when you're out in the world and you come up to somebody who just is all about creating a positive experience— Debbie and I, my wife Debbie and I, had dinner last night out at Disney. With a couple of friends.

What a surprise. I think you guys have the record for patronizing Disney Dream.

And we had just a delightful server. And I can't pinpoint one thing that she did that made her delightful. It was a bunch of little things, just the eye contact, the words that she used, the responsiveness, the recommendations, the, you know, all of these little, just little touches. And it validated one of the points that I make in many of my presentations of little moments of wow add up. You know, a lot of times we're looking for how do we create this—

Big bang.

Mind-boggling experience, which is great. I mean, and we do, we should focus on those things. But the magic, the day-to-day magic comes from the little courtesies. And I think that's the point that I'm trying to make is that when somebody is delivering those little courtesies, it's like your shoulders go down.

You know, I couldn't agree more. Not only could I not agree more, but I'd say those are the most important things. I remember one of the first responses when the pandemic hit. You know, some of my clients were calling and they wanted to know because, you know, because I harp on this importance of inspiration so much, right, from a leadership position. I do believe it's one of three essential disciplines that a leader needs to embrace. But having said that, it's the small things. Everyone was, like you said, looking for that big bang moment.

Yeah.

What's the email that I'm going to put out that's going to rally everybody? What little video can I put together? What presentation can I do? Well, one person called. She was amazing. She asked, and I got to a point because I didn't know, you know, I don't know. Nobody knew what to do.

Nobody.

So I started asking, right? Yeah. So I started asking all these folks that were calling. I said, well, I'm going to ask you the same question. What are you doing right now? She said, well, not much. She said, I'm just calling everybody on my team. I said, how many people? She— I mean, when she said team, she meant everybody. Her organization wasn't huge, but it wasn't tiny. It was about 150 people. And she called every one of them. I said, what are you saying to them? Said, "How you doing?" Yeah. "Can I— what can I do to help you?" Yeah. Wow. And her— the performance in that company, and that was— it was not an easy transition to the remote work for that particular organization, but they did it. And they had a nice production spike. They were actually getting more work done for a while. And people were so grateful and so appreciative. That's what we mean by, right, you said these little moments of wow. That's really—

and I'll bet you she got questions that she couldn't answer. And I think—

Well, it started the conversation, you know, it started the conversation.

It starts the conversation. But being able to say, you know what, right now, I don't know. We're in uncharted territory, you know.

And she didn't dictate the needs that she thought she should, right? She heard from those— you're right, it started the conversation. And it, she got to hear firsthand what people were thinking about. And some of it was a surprise to her. But that's cool because she was able to respond.

And could influence decisions on how to best take care of her people.

Exactly, exactly.

But I think sometimes as leaders, we think we need to know all the answers. There's no way. There's no way.

No, I want to make a t-shirt, Dennis. I want to make a t-shirt say, "Leaders are not people who have all the answers." Yeah. Now I could add a subtitle and say, Those, we call those people holes, right?

Yeah, that's right.

But I want, on the back of the t-shirt, I want, "Leaders are the people who know how to ask the right questions." Yeah, yeah.

And take action on the answers.

Yeah, yeah.

But I, I, that's, that's a great story. And it's a very, it's a great example of people appreciate being appreciated. So as a leader, when you think about, you know, what can I, because employee engagement is such a, a hot term, you know, and has been for years now, employee engagement. But I always say, what does that mean? You know, what does it really mean? And I think it means two things. I think it means truly engaging our people in how do we get better at what we do? You know, not just a, an ex— it's not an exercise. It means truly engaging our people in how do we better serve our customers? You know, because our people know what frustrates our customers because they deal with it all the time. So that's number 1. And number 2, it means showing genuine, authentic appreciation to our people. When I think about, you know, engaging our people, it's not a program. It's about let's get people involved and how do we get better at what we do? And let's really show true appreciation. And that example of making those multiple phone calls is a perfect example of that. People would tell their families about things like that. You know, I got a call from my boss, you know, just checking in. You know, they talk about things like that.

Right. As opposed to the standard question that some were asking is, you know, are you getting your work done?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to log, you need to log your work because you're not, you know, I need to know that your camera was on. And that you're doing this and that.

Um, yeah, it was tremendous when it comes to those things. Yeah, yeah. No, you hit— again, you're hitting on— God, we sing in harmony. I can't, I can't think of a substantive point we've ever disagreed on. Um, but it's, you know, and then I'm not saying that in a stroking fashion. Um, I believe that the things that you and I talk about, the things that we share with other folks, are so fundamental that it would be hard to disagree with it. Yeah, I know we find people that do, that, you know, we grate people the wrong way sometimes because they don't want to come into this world, or they don't recognize that human-centric leadership is the only authentic leadership as far as I'm concerned. That nothing gets done without your people, and your people are only going to perform at their best when they know you care about them.

Absolutely.

And you need to show that.

Um, but it's it, and you have to constantly remind yourself about that though. It's easy to forget, you know, it's easy to lock yourself into the office, focus on the computer and the numbers that are popping up and not getting out there, which is the management side, which, right, which is what you have to do.

It needs to be paid attention to. Right. Yeah.

You got to do it.

Yeah.

But you've got to do the other side as well. If you neglect the other side, you know, one of the things that, that I remember when I was, you know, in management at Disney was we were held accountable for 3 things as leaders: the guest experience, the cast member or the employee experience, and financial results. You know, that those were the 3, and there was a balance on those. So they're all important. They're all important. And so you couldn't excel at one of those and move ahead. You know, it was okay. You know, there are the, it's the three-legged stool. And so you really had to, you know, it forced isn't the right word, but it forced you to focus on three critical elements of leadership, you know, the customer experience, the employee experience, and financial results. And for people who weren't in a, you know, a profit center, it was managing, you know, financial results was managing costs, you know, so. Right. Everybody, everybody in leadership, there's a financial aspect to the job.

Yeah.

And that really helped, you know, when we made that shift to that 3-legged stool of rounding out the qualities of what constituted a good leader, you know, of— it wasn't just one thing.

No, no, it's not at all. And again, you opened up a couple of cans of worms there. Um, the first one being that the only art— and it's not really an argument, I think, because I just want to reinforce this point— that when people question which is more important, I always think about— I was blessed with so many great teachers in martial arts, and these things translated so nicely to— well, they were teaching real life. Martial arts was the vehicle. People need to understand that, you know, the philosophy was much more important than the punching and kicking. Well, Dr. Yang Zhueningming, who is one of my— to me, one of the greatest teachers I've ever encountered, he used to have us look at that Tai Chi symbol, the yin and the yang symbol.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it means many things. And to keep the story short, it's a dynamic graphic, isn't it? And that, that was intentional. The folks that designed it actually came— I don't know if I ever told you this— it evolved out of pictures, you know, the koi ponds in China. Yeah, where one fish would move, the other one would take its place. They were so tightly packed. And the philosophers said, well, that's a pretty neat symbol for the way life really is, right? Constantly in motion. One thing moves, the other one takes its place. So if using your idea of that three-legged stool, at any given time, any of those areas can take on more importance, right?

Right.

But you always have to maintain a foothold in all of those other areas. And the only argument I say when someone says, what spins the wheel though? In leadership, it's the human side. Nothing gets done without the human side. Now, that circles us back to another point you were making. I believe that a lot of times, and we're all guilty of it as people, not just as leaders, that it's our charge to show appreciation to people. That's our responsibility. We don't always get it back. And the argument that I make at any given time, I said, you know, that's part of the conundrum of leadership, if you will. I think there are things that need to be given unconditionally, or leaders need to give them first. Certainly respect, trust, and loyalty, which I think are the most important assets. But things like appreciation. Yeah, and I hear it, and I get it. I get it. And I've been in the same position, right? You're really working hard. You're doing as much as you can for your people. And you just feel like they just, They don't appreciate everything you're doing. They want more. That's particularly acute in times of a crisis or a disaster. But we just have to be resilient. We have to be tough to that.

You've got to muscle through it because it really does make a difference. It goes back to the old saying, people don't quit companies, they quit bosses. We don't, I think as leaders, we don't always know the impact our behavior is having.

Tom Peters.

Yeah. Oh yeah. You remember Tom Peters, In Search of Excellence? He had a great quote that I think I heard him say in a presentation. He said, the problem, and you know, he would yell. He always yelled everything. But he would say, The problem isn't that your people don't know what you're doing. The problem is they do know what you're doing. You know, and his point was, you know, our people know what we really value by what we do. They're watching. They're watching. You know, are you truly walking the talk of the organization's mission and vision and values?

I was just gonna say that's exactly why we picked this name for this program. If you're not walking the walk, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

One of my favorite photos from my Disney days, it was probably— this was well before my day. This was probably 1959 that this photo was taken. But it's a picture of Walt Disney in Disneyland and he's picking up trash off the ground.

Yeah.

You know, and the way I like to think now, I don't know if this actually would have happened or not, but the way I like to think about it is imagine a trainer and trainee. You know, right near Walt when he was doing that and the trainer saying, yeah, you know, and it's important to keep the place clean, you know, that, that we all pick up trash up and you turn around and there's Walt picking up trash off.

Yeah. Right. Or even worse, if what if he had turned to somebody else and said, hey, pick that up.

Right, right.

What a difference, right? And no, I agree with you that, and that idea of impact, it's, it's so incredible. You know, the lessons you take from different different. Like you said, everything that you do is going to be part of who you are, especially as an entrepreneur later on. And I think about something I used to share with my instructors in the martial arts center. I said, you choose your words carefully. And again, sensei is a leader by default. You cannot be a sensei without being a leader. And I said, your words will have so much impact on the people you're working with. You might think what you said isn't— is a throwaway, it doesn't mean that much, but to them it might mean an awful lot. Positive or negative. And I think especially, well, I shouldn't say especially with children because I think for a leader with employees, I hate that term, but the people you serve, right? They're gonna, your words and actions are magnified in their eyes.

No, absolutely. And we don't always realize that. Like you said, maybe a throwaway statement that, and I was guilty of that. You know, I got called out.

Oh, we all are.

We all are called out by cast members that, I made some throwaway statement and 2 weeks later, you know, Dennis, I just had to tell you, you made me really feel bad, uh, when you said that. And I had totally, you know, to me, I totally—

it wasn't your intention.

It wasn't my intention, but that was the effect and that's the important thing.

Yeah. No, and we never know what that other person's experiencing on any given day too. And, and I, I'm not saying to be So careful that you, you know, you don't have a sense of humor. And you—

well, and we do have to address challenges too. I mean, you know, we do have to address performance issues and those kinds of things. But going back to the word you used earlier, respect. Another thing, one of my, my, when I was getting ready to give my first reprimand to somebody at Disney, my manager, the guy that I reported to, Bruce Fox, mentor, And this was 1981, this happened. And I remember like it was yesterday. He said, Dennis, as a leader, no matter what you have to do, even if you have to fire somebody, when they walk out of that door, you make sure they walk out with their dignity.

Yeah.

And man, that was just one of those things that it's frozen in time.

Yeah.

For me.

Yeah.

Now, I still had to give the reprimand. You know, but it changed the way I thought about it to more of a constructive approach of what can I do? What can I say that increases the likelihood that this— it was a performance, it was an attendance issue, that they're going to improve their attendance versus I'm going to tear this person down.

No, but you're hitting on something that's so critical today. You know, You mentioned engagement a while ago. I get frustrated because the semantics keep changing. We're still facing the same issue. We always will. I mean, you know, how involved people are in their work is always going to be an issue. You know, there'll be people that are more or less involved.

Sure.

We used to use the words engagement and disengagement. You know, the hot ones now, well, I guess these are even passé. Quiet quitting was a big one not too long ago.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Right? Quiet firing. I said, okay, you're, you know, you're putting a different name on the same pig. But, you know, that's okay. Here nor there. But one of our strategies here is always tough yet compassionate.

Yeah.

And people would— they still challenge me on that. They say, why don't you put compassion first? I said, because too many people confuse compassion with kindness or weakness all the time. Sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind. And I don't mean it in— I mean it in the way I'm supporting what you said. Be respectful. But now people, when I heard that the quiet firing was a thing. So say, okay, now people are at their job. They're not working and they're being quiet about it. They're just getting through. Nobody's talking to anybody. Now, even the managers, they're firing people without really talking about it. Right? Nobody's talking to one another. It's so difficult for people now to have those tough conversations. But they can be done respectfully and they can be— I always say it this way. Well, I'll use an example from again from teaching martial arts and it's another— it just came to mind about working with the instructors. They caught me one time because they said, "You just told that kid he did something stupid." I said, "I know I did." And the kid did do something and I do the same thing with the incarcerated kids I work with now. I'll look at anybody and say, "You know what you did? That was really stupid." But I said, "Watch this." I said, I will never look at that person and say, you're stupid. Yeah, yeah.

You see, that's a good distinction.

Yeah, like you said, sometimes you have to call them out, but you can't neglect that part of the job.

But the way you do it, I guess it all, it really all goes back to intention, doesn't it? What's your intent behind what I'm about to do? Or what I'm about to say. And is it a constructive intent or destructive intent? And so you're accomplishing the same objective, but from a different perspective of what the intent behind it is.

Yeah. And hopefully incorporating the other person's perspective, right? If you're listening. But again, if you don't care, don't bother. But you know, this is— you just triggered something else too. In a good way, not in the socially demeaning way.

I trigger you, Jim? I'm sorry.

Yeah, I like being triggered, frankly. It stimulates my thinking, right? No, and I don't want to get lost on a tangent, but that's an important thing too. Um, you know, sometimes people when they're debating me, they think, geez, did I upset you? I said no. I said I'm getting passionate about it, right? But no, I, I want to be challenged. I want my thinking stim— you might not change my mind, I don't know, We're not at that stage yet. That's— this is stage one.

You should have a discussion, but let's have it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was— when you were talking about impact, and I, I really do want to drive this point home, and I'm not approaching this from a political point of view, I'm approaching this clinically as someone who's supposed to know a thing or two about leadership. I think one of the, one of the things that Donald Trump did that was a disservice to his own cause was— and you— I saw it in his books long before he, he got to be president, in the language that he used. Very often he said something off the cuff, dismissively, and he didn't feel that it was making a real impact, but it did. And a lot of times it affected him negatively. Did you see the same thing with that? I mean, again, people have— leaders have to realize they can't— we don't have the luxury of saying something off the cuff.

Right. And if we do sometimes, and I remember a leader out at Disney one time made an off-the-cuff remark walking into one of our facilities there, and there were a bunch of cast members around, and he made an off-the-cuff remark, and it really had a negative impact on the people who heard this. And he came, and when he heard about it, he came back and called him.

Perfect. And said, that's what I was going to ask you about. Yep.

I apologize. I didn't think about what I was saying, and I truly apologize. That's not the way it— I said it incorrectly, and it's my fault. I apologize. That's not—

and if you break— that's beautiful. And if you're joking, make sure, damn sure people know you're joking. And if you can't tell a good joke, don't tell jokes. Right. I know that's an old piece of speaker's advice, isn't it?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Open up with a joke.

No, open up with a joke. Well, not if, not if you suck at telling jokes.

Yeah. Not if you can't tell a joke. Um, but that was a night, you know, again, there's moments frozen in time and that was a moment. Frozen in time for me when he came back and apologized for a remark that he— yeah, he thought was just an innocent, you know, observation.

Um, but how inspiring is that? Yeah, right? How inspiring is that, that he took the time? And again, we talk about, you know, one of the interesting— we actually do get into debates about this one because people don't want to accept— and this isn't me saying this, I mean, the research is bombproof. One of the key actions or behaviors for a leader to engender trust is vulnerability. And that's been explored in great detail lately, right?

Lately, yes, it really has.

Yeah, and I think that's what he did. I mean, he showed a vulnerability instead of walking away and thinking, well, this will pass, or yeah, I'm the boss.

These folks are oversensitive.

Yeah, yeah.

He recognized the problem and took responsibility. And he was, like you said, he was vulnerable. He got up in front of everybody that was there.

Yeah.

And I was wrong. I apologize.

Hey, and you know what? Even if you're right most of the time, you know, sometimes you got to pick your battles. And most of the time, I'm sorry doesn't cost you anything.

Right. Well, I've learned that with, you know, my wife. You know, you know, most with a significant other.

No, no, no.

I know you've never had to apologize for anything.

Well, I'm just thinking, but Debbie's pretty much, you know, a candidate for sainthood, so I can't imagine.

Yes, she is. So I'm usually the one that messes up. But, you know, being the— we've learned in, you know, the 40-plus years of— we were married in 1981. Yeah, that being vulnerable and saying, I'm sorry, I screwed this up. I said something I shouldn't have said in the spur of the moment, whatever it may be. It brings, you know, there, it's a relationship builder. You know, it's a thing that builds a stronger bond. That vulnerability builds a stronger bond than, yeah, I'm digging in, right or wrong. You know, I'm digging in. And, you know, another thing that I wanted to mention too, I think as leaders and in organizations, We do have a tendency to overcomplicate things.

Oh, amen. When our job should be the complete opposite, right?

Yeah, to simplify. Everything is— things are so complicated now. When you're the person, the leader, that can really simplify things and remind people about the simple things, This is what we are in business to do. This is who we are. These are our values. You know, when people start saying, okay, I see what we're all about. I like to say there are 3 things that customers want. You know, when you think about an interaction that you have with a company. And I admit what I'm about to say is going to sound overly simplified. But I think when you think about it, it's true. We want you to be, you know, let's say I'm your customer. We want you to be good at what you do, be knowledgeable, you know, be good at what you do, be easy to do business with, simplify my life, you know, make it, you know, eliminate frustrations, be easy to do business with. And number 3, Be nice to me while you're doing it. You know, make me feel valued. Make me feel like you really care. You think about whether it's a hardware store or a hospital or a real estate agent or any business. Yeah, you're good at what you do. Be efficient in doing it. And be nice to me. You know, care about me. And so I think as leaders, if we can kind of bring our folks back to those are the things that create the great experiences that keep us employed. And focus in on those, just those, here's the things I want you to keep in mind, you know, as you do what you do.

I couldn't agree with you more. And again, that's a wonderful lesson I learned from martial arts. You know, people look at martial arts and they see all these complicated movements. I said, no, you know what those are made out of? Punches, kicks, and, and walking around, you know. I said those are the three things we need to be able to move and be able to throw punches and kicks, you know. Yeah. And that's not oversimplifying it. If you can't do those things well, none of those fancy moves mean a damn thing, right?

Right, right. They're good for show, but they're— yeah.

So that imprint, um, again, it's universal. And one of the, one of the things I, I I say all the time is this, and I learned it from becoming a black belt. That's how I first started saying it, and now imprinted in leadership. Simple, not easy.

Yeah, right, right.

These things are simple. Doesn't make— it's simple to get the black belt. You practice and you're going to get there. Okay.

Yeah.

Is it easy? No. There's a lot of pain, a lot of introspection, a lot of suffering along the way, a lot of humility, a lot of good lessons. But yeah, not easy. Having said that, Having said that, yeah, I believe, you know, management, that's when you're dealing with the complexity.

Yeah.

And again, that's important. Leadership is simplifying all that and rallying people, transforming me into we so that we can go out and accomplish something together.

No, right, right. And create, you know, great experiences for those we serve. And, you know, yeah, well, there you go. Those are the companies that, that get through the challenging times when their customers, you know, feel that that experience, that value is greater than the cost. And that ultimately, that ultimately comes down to our people. You know, they are the company. Our people are the company.

That is what a— that's a great place. I was going to say, give you the last word. Those are pretty good last words right there. Yeah.

Well, I'll give you One Walt Disney quote, uh, because I can't, I can't wrap up without a Walt Disney quote, you know.

Well, before you do that though, before you do that, then we're going to say, because I want you, I want your bam at the end. Um, Dennis, you know, it's been too long. Let's, let's have you back on the program. Oh, I'd love to.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah, it's so much fun. And I always, you know, I always learn. You stimulate my thinking. That's That's what makes it all worthwhile. And we don't want to forget to mention Lessons from the Mouse. Yeah, uh, terrific book. If it's not on your shelf right now, then you need to get on Amazon. Or where would you like people to go? Is it Amazon?

Okay, Amazon, and that's probably the best place to get the book.

Uh, and your website, let's—

our website and other things, yeah, uh, www.snowassociates.com, all one word.

And have Dennis come to your next conference or your meeting. Yeah, I mean, he— you'll be well served, and, and, uh, and we'll have him back, and hopefully we'll, uh, we'll be working together. So, okay, yeah, let's, let's wrap things up with the, uh—

yeah, he— well, this is the, uh, you know, and it's probably his most famous quote. He said, you can dream, design, create, and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. And to me, that's everything we've been talking about in one quote, you know, that it takes our people to bring all of this hard work, all of this capital, all of these things that we've created and built. And, but when it comes down to it, it comes down to our people interacting with our customers in whatever form that is. And so the better we are as leaders to facilitate that, the more successful the organization is going to be.

Then I'll just punctuate it with a quote from one of my favorite movies, The Last Samurai.

Perfect. That was Tom Cruise, right? Was that The Last Samurai?