WTW 070 Will Sampson - Crafting leadership in woodworking…

What a pleasure today. I've been on Will's amazing podcast a couple of times, and it's always difficult, you know, when you have friends on, on a show like this because, you know, I could tell you a lot of stories about Will, or I could probably steal some of the stories that he's told me, and I'd rather you heard it from him directly.. So I'm going to introduce to you my dear friend Will Sampson. He's part of the Woodworking Network, and I'm going to let him tell you a little bit more about what he does there because he does an awful lot there. And among other things, uh, he's a career journalist, editor, and he's had some adventures. So we're going to get into some of those today.

Haven't you? It's a pleasure to be on the podcast with you, Jim. I always love spending time with you. Um, there you go. For the benefit of your audience, the Woodworking Network is part of a media company for which I am the editorial director, and we focus on the professional woodworking industry, everything from one-man shops on up to, you know, multi-thousand employee factories. And the focus, I tell people, you know, there are lots of woodworking magazines and websites out there that tell you how to make sawdust we focus on how to make money. And that's, that's probably, that's a little harder, especially since a lot of the people in the woodworking industry, they didn't get into it because they thought it was going to be a great business. They got into it because they like making stuff. And so, you know, a lot of what we do is teach Business 1A to people that never had it. And I find that quite gratifying when we take people that are basically starving artists and turn them into successful entrepreneurs. And that's kind of exciting. And yeah, you know, it's, it's fun. I do, you know, workshops around the country talking about people, how to price their work and that sort of thing. And it's, it's a lot of fun. Yeah.

And I want to get into more of that too, because You know, you've got an incredibly interesting resume, and it took you to a lot of different adventures. But also, you know, spirit of full disclosure, I think some of the people listening already know that, you know, I've spoken twice at your EBC conference and coming back again for the third year. Thank you so much. I mean, it's just an honor to be working with you guys in your closets conference. And one of the things that impressed me the most is it touches on what you just said. A lot of these folks, even the folks that are running big— most of the folks that are running big operations that I've met at your events started right on the front lines. I mean, and like you said, it was— it's a vocation of passion, isn't it? I mean, they wanted to make beautiful things, and one thing led to another, and for a couple of them, it felt like it to them anyway. All of a sudden, they're running a big organization with offices, some of them in multiple countries. You know, we always talk about leadership at all levels. It's interesting how caring these people are. Is it, you think it's because they started on the front lines and worked their way up so they have an empathy for people at all levels? Or what's the secret sauce you guys have?

Well, I don't know if it's the secret sauce, but I do think that a lot of folks in this industry, and certainly not all of them, but a lot of them treat their business community like family. And, you know, I guess that can be good and bad. You know, everybody has somebody in their family who they, you know, dread seeing at Thanksgiving or something like that. But they do care about their folks. And that's the kinds of folks that we like to encourage too, is caring about their people, because we always believe that people are the most important resource of any business. And But I think that a lot of these companies, yeah, the guy started, you know, and he knows all of the stuff because he started at the bottom. But that also can be a handicap, especially in today's world of fast-changing technology, because, you know, just because you knew what worked 20, 30 years ago doesn't mean you know what works today. And, you know, we've had some discussions about, you know, the different generations and working with them, and there's sometimes friction and that sort of thing. You have to have a flexible attitude to work with folks. And, you know, maybe that is the idea of family. You know, you can't get rid of your family. They're there.

No, but you're hitting on it.

Figure out how to work with them. Right.

But you're hitting on so many important points because, you know, this whole idea, you know, one of our strategies, flexible, adaptable, comfortable with uncertainty, right? And to keep those lines of communication open as newer generations come on board because, well, especially today, they're usually more familiar with the cutting-edge technology, right? They've played with it, which is an interesting phenomenon that happens these days, right? It's not just that they came into this in a professional world, but In fact, a lot of high-tech companies are recruiting gamers because they're familiar, right, with the cutting-edge technology and how to apply it, how to use it. So that, I think that's really critical, isn't it? That people, you know, you stay open to the input from all levels. You stay open to the input from new generations as they come in. You don't need to do everything yourself, right? You need good people around you.

No, absolutely. In fact, you don't want to do everything yourself. That's one of the biggest problems that we we encounter with folks is people who can't delegate, who can't create a team operation, that sort of thing. You know, I tell people that in small woodworking operations, there seems to be a point when you get to about 4 employees where the owner is working in the shop right alongside of them, and he realizes that he needs to either be in the office running the company or in the shop running the shop and hire a business manager to, to take care of business. And a lot of folks can't get past that point. They, they just can't let go. And, you know, the ones that successfully figure out how to do it, um, do it. I mean, a lot, a lot of times it's, it's kind of a fun strategy, you know. Like, I, I know a gentleman in, in, uh Pennsylvania who got to that point, and he decided he needed to be in the front office, but he loved working wood and doing wood, and so he divided the chores so that he was the chief wood buyer for the company, and he could, you know, buy all this pretty wood that was one of their trademarks is that they used really spectacular wood in all their projects, and so he could be a woodaholic and fill up his barn with all of this great wood and do designs, and while the, you know, the guys in the shop can run the machines and that sort of thing. And that worked real well for him.

I hear you. That is a critical point. I mean, the first time I experienced it was in the martial arts business as we started to add multiple centers. And you're right. I mean, people— that is a danger for those of us who start on the front lines and build our own shops, you know, usually starting as solopreneurs and then adding your first, your second employee. I think you're right, that 4 or 5 person shop tends to be the breakpoint. And it's hard. It's hard. I remember it was so difficult for me to come off the floor and, and to do the admin part more and more and more because that, you know, that isn't why I got into that business. I got into that business to teach, right? And that is, that is a difficult, that is a difficult split. That is— how do you, uh, how do you help people manage through that transition? I like the idea that you just said You can pick one. A person can stay in the shop. They just have to hire admin people to help them out.

Right? Right. You know, in case of woodworking or any manufacturing business, you know, you can be the shop foreman if you just can't let go of the work and hire somebody to run the business. And maybe that's the best choice, particularly if you're not a very good salesperson or— or there you go— really don't like the numbers and all that kind of stuff that you have to deal with. But historically, I think you'll be more successful if you can transition to the office. You know, because you've got— you're the one that's invested in this company financially and emotionally. But I think it boils down to the old thing of learning that everybody else in your company brings something new to your company that you don't necessarily have. And maybe they don't understand some of the details and the history and all that and what you put into it. But they're coming with fresh eyes and seeing things that you perhaps can't see. And if you recognize that and see their value, then they can add that value to your business. And that's immeasurable. You know, we do a lot of things with lean manufacturing and Toyota Production System and that sort of thing. And one of the tenets of the Toyota Production System is that there's 7 kinds of waste, or muda in the Japanese word. And there are a few in the lean manufacturing world that say, actually, there's an 8th kind of waste that's really important, and that's wasting the brainpower of your team.

Oh, amen.

You know, I think that's really important.

Yeah, and you know, you opened a can of worms there, I think, too, because I see that a lot of people are hesitant to give up authority, if you— I guess is probably the proper term for it, confusing it with a releasing of control. You know, there's this tendency to want to hang on to control. But you really, when you bring people on, even if you bring people on in positions that are equal to, or maybe even sometimes on the management side above your pay grade, so to speak, right? You're still not relinquishing control. Ultimately, it's still your company, and you're not abdicating responsibility. Ultimately, it's still going to be your responsibility. I think it's beautiful when people can let go. You know, one of my core beliefs is that power— and I think to a large degree, too, authority— it only expands through sharing. Of course, we have to be clear about power, right? For those who are new to the ideas here, power is nothing more than your ability or capacity to act or perform effectively. That's what power is. We're not talking about power confused with control, as so many people do conflate the two. But, uh, it only expands through sharing. If you want to be more powerful, you want to be more effective, you need other people around you to be powerful and effective, right? So why not, why not bring that idea into that world? If you— yeah, I like it. You want to stay in the shop, you want to keep your hands dirty a little more, then give other people the authority. Give other people some power and maybe control too.

Well, you know, I think that a lot of people don't want to invest the time and energy. You know, it's one thing, yes, you can empower somebody. But you also should invest time and energy in helping them grow into that empowered position. And, you know, I I go back to a situation where I was a new employee at a company. And I was told on my first day that I probably was gonna want to fire a couple of people on my team because they were just not as productive as the rest of the folks. And I said, "Oh, that's interesting." And, you know, I started working with those two guys. And They became my most productive people on my team. And, you know, I couldn't do what I needed to do without them. But, you know, the previous administration could not see fit to work with those folks to bring them on board the way that they needed to be on board. And I always, I see that a lot of times that, you know, the old, you know, my way or the highway. Well, maybe there's another road. You know, if you can learn from your folks that you work with and help them be their best, they can help you and your whole operation be the best.

No, I'd say there usually is a third better way, right? Sometimes we'll debate one, you know, my way, your way. And if we can debate constructively, usually there is a third way. I want to clarify, it's interesting because you see, first of all, I'm smiling because I remember you telling me that story at one point, I think on the golf course. But the idea of empowerment, I want to make sure people understand clearly what we're talking about, you know, here at Sensei Leader Movement with that. Empowerment doesn't mean granting somebody a position of authority. That's not really what we're talking about. Those are two different things. Granting someone a position of authority is more of a management decision, and that's important. That's cool. Empowerment means exactly what you just touched on. It means making sure people have what they need to succeed at any level, in any given position. And that can involve how many things? Like you just mentioned, it could involve training. It can involve taking some time with them to understand them a little bit better. Making sure, giving them the authority they need to operate successfully. That can be part of the empowerment process. But I agree with you 100%. You got to make damn sure that they have the training and the experience necessary to be able to perform effectively in that position. Not that you don't give somebody a crack at that, that, that bar set a little bit higher than they're used to, right? Because that's exciting sometimes.

Yeah, well, absolutely. And, and, you know, I, I think that, uh, particularly in entrepreneurial companies, there's a huge danger of micromanaging everything in the company from the owner's perspective. And in my industry, in woodworking industry, it seems to be even more inflicted with the disease of, you know, we can't change because this is the way we've always done it. The most dangerous words in the English language, right? Yeah, absolutely. And that's really bad. Especially in the world we live in today that is so dramatically changing on a daily, hourly basis with technology and how things are marketed. I was at a, just last week, I was at a new product launch at a European power tool company at their American headquarters. And, you know, in the old days, when I've been in this business a long time, you know, if I went to something like that, it would be all the guests would be media people from magazines. And, you know, as the internet grew, we'd get a couple of bloggers, you know, that would be on board. And some of us in the the legacy media would sort of, you know, look down our noses at these bloggers. Well, you know, there were 40 guests at this event last week, and there were only 4 of us that could be considered from legacy media. Everybody else was, you know, internet influencers, and, and, uh, you know, and, and they were all doing legitimate reporting, but It's, you know, that's completely upside down what it was a decade or so ago.

No, everything you're saying is so true. I often catch myself saying that nothing that I share is new, it's thousands of years old. We just have to keep revisiting it, we have to keep, uh, updating it contextually, I guess, and, and also make sure that we, we pay attention to making these things a discipline. But I think it was Pliny the Elder— when did he live? Around 600 AD or something. So the only certainty is uncertainty. The only, only thing that changes all the time is change, right? I mean, that it doesn't change is change. Uh, our world is growing. The rate of, of change is accelerating. I mean, that's for sure. And again, in your business. But you also touched on another thing. I don't want to let this go. One of the through lines that I think makes you not only a remarkable leader, but, um, you know, you're such a I think such a strong communicator, and that is a hallmark of, of good leadership. You don't need to be Martin Luther King, don't get me wrong, but you, you need to be able to communicate effectively, and you've done that. It's a through line in your career because you started really as a journalist, right, and then started moving, moving through that world. What— I see that the technology changed, but how we communicate a message effectively from its, from the core hasn't really changed that much, has it? And how have you managed 'Cause I don't think all of a sudden you embrace a new technology and your communication changed a whole lot, right?

No, no, I started in journalism when I was still in high school, professional journalism. I was editor of my high school paper, but I was also working for a local weekly newspaper. You know, all through everything that I've done over the years, it comes down to me to two things. I tell people, you know, on the business side, all of life is selling. And on the life side, you know, if you're trying to convince somebody, the best way to convince people is to tell stories. And I'm a storyteller. And I collect stories, my own and, and ones that I've heard, and share them to make a point. And I always think that those kinds of, you know, telling a story makes something more real than just saying, well, this is what you got to do, you know, because I say so, or yeah, whatever, you know. Um, so regardless of, you know, whether I was in, you know, newspaper industry for about 20 years, and then went over to magazines, and now I'm, you know, basically mixed media. And, you know, we do a lot of events which you've participated in, and we do, you know, conferences and online stuff in a couple of magazines. And we're always looking at new possibilities. So, you know, and the technology is allowing that these these days, but it still gets down to most of what we're doing is sharing stories.

That's a— that leads to one of the few questions I actually prepare. As I don't— I don't like to come at these, these, uh, conversations with a lot of prepared questions, but because you have so many great stories, what can you share? At least one, um, that really touched you, you know, in regard to how somebody responded as a leader, especially to a crisis situation? You know, one of the things that was so impressive, especially at the last EBC conference, was listening to people's stories about how they got through the pandemic. I mean, you know, most of those companies got through and survived and did okay. Some of them had remarkable successes in the middle of all all that chaos. And there are very few industries that were impacted as much, you know, by that, that situation as yours. For one thing, I heard a lot of stories from leaders who said their products were not as necessary to people as other products were. So they had to manage that. And of course, the supply chain and the manufacturing disruptions were absolutely catastrophic to the folks that you work with. And yet some of them came out of that with amazing, like I said, amazing success stories that they actually moved their companies forward.

Oh yeah, there was, you know, there were a lot of companies in manufacturing transitioned from whatever their basic product was to some kind of a product related to the pandemic, you know, perhaps personal protective equipment or something like that. And so there were a lot of stories that we told about those kinds of transitions. And then there were companies that, you know, in some of the government-led controls on folks, you know, there were folks that were designated as doing, you know, vital things and essential services, and so were not shut down when other companies were shut down. And those companies had to figure out how to continue working. I know one company that, you know, went through a lot of procedures and split their shifts so that if somebody got infected on one shift, they wouldn't lose the whole plant and that sort of thing. And, you know, they didn't even allow their employees to, you know, socialize with folks across shifts because they were so concerned about that sort of thing. But, you know—

Is there someone in particular, a particular leader that really stood out to you that did something that really impressed you?

Well, there were so many different ones. You know, there's a gentleman in Canada who writes a lean manufacturing column for us, Brad Cairns, and he, Besides being a lean consultant, he also runs a door plant, makes cabinet doors. And company's called Best Damn Doors, which sort of sounds like him. He's an entertaining fellow to listen to. And he realized that he was, particularly with the lockdowns in Canada where he's based, that he wasn't going to be able to operate normally. And he completely, instantly transitioned his company to making face shields for people. And, you know, that's a big transition from, you know, making MDF and hardwood doors to, you know, working with plastic and making, you know, face shields. And, you know, he delivered his first shipment of face shields to the, you know, local emergency room where his plant's based. And, you know, that's a huge transition to be able to change, you know, everything you do. But people found they could turn on a dime and do that sort of thing.

Yeah, and, you know, I think that the best leaders And it's interesting because I heard other stories like that at the last conference. It seems to me, and we're back, we're always back to the idea of storytelling. And I couldn't agree with you more. I think great leaders are good storytellers. And that's how you inspire. I think you inspire people. Well, the two biggest ways to inspire— I shouldn't say I think. I know this for a fact. I know this. I'll defend this with every cell in my body. The most inspirational thing you can do is be the example. Be the example that you want others to be. And that doesn't need to be grand at times. Sometimes just seeing somebody roll up their sleeves and get to work. One of the most inspirational stories I heard, and it's a pretty common story, and I don't remember which company. It was a big company. Actually, it was a woman who had run for president some years ago. She was the CEO of a big company. And I'm ashamed that I don't remember the story. But the story went that they were doing a walk-around. And she saw some litter on the ground. And she turned around to pick up the litter and put it in the trash, which mortified the people that were on the tour, right? But to her, it needed to be done. She picked it up. And what an inspirational, small action, but how inspirational that is. And I think the best leaders that I've seen in your industry too are the people who brought the challenges to the floor. You know, brought the challenges to their people and shared those challenges and said, "Hey, look, this is what's going on." Can we do this? Can you come up with an idea? Now, there's a nefarious reason I brought that up. You brought me— what a gift, I have to say. This is still to this moment, and I share this story all the time. You, you invited me to go on a tour of the company you were— I think we're going to feature— and right here where we live in Maine, the Thomas Moser Company, a manufacturer essentially that's running self-directed work groups.. And I thought that was incredible because the most pushback I get about self-directed or leadership at all levels usually comes from frontline manufacturing when they have deadlines and they have certain production quotas they need to make. And these guys are doing it. I'll tell you what, that inspired the hell out of me. I know you came away with a good impression of those guys. You had a good impression going.

Yeah, right. Thomas Moser is a great company. I mean, started by a college professor in the 1970s who who, you know, love to make things, like you say, right? Yeah, like making custom furniture. And it's grown, you know, it has a history of making high-end, finely crafted furniture, but it doesn't run away from new technology. As you saw at their plant, they have in addition to fine craftsmen, you know, hand shaving parts and things like that. They have a 5-axis CNC machine, fully automated machine that's doing things for them there too. And all of their designs are done on computers and that sort of thing. So, you know, it's, it's a marriage of technology and craftsmanship. And I think that, you know, Mr. Moser, who is now up in years and not really active in the business anymore, although he still maintains a shop there in the plant to work on prototypes and projects, you know, I think that he was in love with craftsmanship and so realizes the power of individuals contributing to craftsmanship and creativity. And you can't do that, you know, I know in some of your talks you've talked about, you know, leading from the front and things like that. You know, not all leaders can do everything and they shouldn't.

No leader can do everything.

Yeah, and so, you know, it's great to set an example, but I think some of the best leaders are the ones that when one of their team comes to them and is really trying to ask permission, that they throw it back on the person and say, "Well, I really can't make that decision.

You need to make that decision because you're the expert in that particular part of our company." That's one of the best examples you could share with someone else is to, right, show the example that you're willing to trust, that you're willing. Because That's interesting. We talk about these very essential assets that leaders need. And the top 3, I believe, are respect, trust, and loyalty. But the rub is you have to give them first, right? Oh, absolutely. You're the leader. You have to give. You have to extend these things. And that's beautiful what you're saying because yeah, if you want those people to come up with great ideas, you have to extend that trust. You have to let them go first. Absolutely.

Well, and I think it works for the leader too.

Oh yeah.

You know, a leader does not know how far he or she can lead his people or her people until they learn from those people. And so, you know, I think that with the right teams and the right creativity and right technology, all the things, you chances are will surprise yourself at where you can go. Um, yeah, but you, you don't know where that is or how far it is or how high it is, um, until you get there or until you try to, you know, go past that sound barrier or what, you know. Years ago, speaking of the sound barrier, I, I had the privilege of, uh, interviewing Chuck Yeager and, uh, um, you know fascinating fellow. And his, his whole thing is, was about breaking limits, you know.

And, and he made a pretty good living on it.

Yeah, he was very good at it, you know. And, uh, that's something that, that, you know, you too, too many people, I think, get stopped or slowed down by limits that they impose on themselves.

No, I hear you. And I think a lot of times it comes out of fear. I know in our workshops, the pushback to this idea usually is, well, that other person might make a mistake and I'm responsible for it. Well, yeah. And you know what? You're going to make mistakes too, you know. And we need to have not foolish risk, but we need to be able to take calculated risks. And we need to trust people and we need to support them. Through mistakes, creative mistakes. Isn't it Bill Gates that said, I think, in his, uh, in his lead design teams at one point, he's famously said that they need to make 9— and he's talking catastrophic mistakes— 9 ideas that come to the table that are, that are going to be complete abject failures. They're not going to go anywhere. And someone challenged him. They said, why? Well, why is that necessary? You have to make 9, 9 huge mistakes like that, 9 huge failures? He said, because that's where you find that one the 10th one is gonna be the one that changes everything, right? And without those other failures—

Yeah, I'm not a, I think failure is something that you need to use.

Probably not as, that ratio has to change in woodworking, right?

Yeah, well, you know, there's a lot of factors there, but you know, I go back to one of my favorite quotes from Henry Ford, which is, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.

You're right either way, right?

You know, it's— I, I'm less concerned about the making the mistakes. They will happen. But I'm, I'm more concerned about the, the lost potential of somebody who, who figures out, well, this may not work, and so they're not even going to try.

Or they leave. They go someplace else where they'll be nurtured, right?

I think all those, those talks about like the Bill Gates thing and, and you know, failing 9 times or whatever, you know. And, and somebody likes to quote, you know, how many times Abraham Lincoln failed before he succeeded and that sort of thing, or Thomas Edison, uh, and that's true, but they didn't see those as failures so much as learning experiences. Okay, I found out that this way doesn't work, So exactly, let's keep going.

And where is their goal? Wasn't— yeah, their goal wasn't to fail. We should clear, right? Where is—

you know, the way those stories are told too much, I think it's, you know, particularly the— from the venture capital folks who are, you know, I'm looking for a guy who's failed a few times.

You want to make sure they're failing constructively, not—

not— yeah, failing up, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a— right, there's a difference between, uh, bravery and stupidity there, right? Courage and stupidity. Yeah. Hey, let's step outside. I know, you know, your focus now is the woodworking world, and it's a fascinating world. For people that don't know about it, I really encourage you to go on and find out more about Woodworking Network and their different publications. And I find that a lot of the material you, you share, uh, while a lot of it is obviously it's, it's specific to that, to that industry, um, your, your, the challenges that your folks face and whatnot translate very nicely to, to other industries too. So I think people would be well served by looking you up. Um, but let's step outside of that for a second. And because you have, like I said, you have so many adventures. And this is, I know it's been too long, it's the first time you're on, it's not going to be the last time. Um, how about outside woodworking, just in the world in general? Um, who's a leader that, that particularly impressed you in your life that you may have had contact with and and exactly why did that person impress you or leave a good impression on you?

Oh boy.

And it doesn't have to be anybody famous. I always, it's always interesting when I ask that question that sometimes people think, oh, I gotta come up with somebody famous. And I'm always impressed when they come up with a gym teacher, you know.

Well, you know, a gentleman that mentored me in my woodworking career, He's passed on now, but Jerry Teague was his name. I will never forget the day that he hired me because he was, you know, looking over all my clips and I had basically applied for a job that didn't exist. You know, I was looking to move on from where I was and I had sent out a bunch of cold call letters to various places. Not chosen for any particular reason other than probably a geographic region kind of thing. And I was looking to move from, from a weekly newspaper situation to a daily newspaper, a small community daily. And Jerry, you know, answered my letter and invited me to come over for an interview. And he looked at my clips and we had talked and all that, and, and he He told me, well, you know, you probably could get a copy desk position on a fairly good-sized daily, and we're just a little feisty little paper here. But, you know, what you would get from coming to this paper is that you would get to learn the trenches. You would be, you know, doing all the stuff and get a huge amount of experience hands-on that would make you better when you do go to that, you know, senior editorial position or something somewhere. And that was true for a large extent of the time that I was there. I learned a lot from him. We crossed swords a few times too, and but he was great and we had some great times until he told the boss that this was a hell of a way to run a newspaper. And I actually took over for him at the paper, and for a while his wife thought I plotted his firing, you know. But it was a little tense there for a while, and then a few years Later, I got to pay him back because I actually hired him to take over for me when I left a newspaper in Oregon and came to the East Coast.

But, you know, it's so funny because, you know, I never know. That's the story because you told me that story before. That's the story I was hoping you'd share because I remember that making an impression. But you didn't tell me the rest of the story. You didn't tell me you got the guy fired.

I didn't get him fired. He got himself fired. And I had nothing to do with it, but there was some people that thought I— because people knew that I was fairly ambitious at the time. Yeah. So, you know, it was a little tense there for a while.

There you go. Hey, Will, thank you so much. And you've got so much more to share. I hope you'll come back with us on future episodes. And maybe we can do a live, livestream from the golf course.

I don't think it'll help our game.

Well, it probably won't hurt it anymore. I'm going to give you the last word. What advice do you have for leaders today from your experience?

Well, I just think you need to keep your eyes open to all the possibilities of all the people that you work with. And, you know, just like an entrepreneur is always on the lookout for the next big business opportunity, you need to be on the lookout for the next opportunity that can grow your people. And I think that's crucial to the success of any operation. And that doesn't come from some 5-year plan or something that you you cooked up. It comes from daily awareness of what's going on all around you.

That is perfect. Will just absolutely summarized the difference between management and leadership there. Something we like to emphasize here. Will Sampson from the Woodworking Network, thank you so much for being with us, and we'll, we'll see you on the show again very soon.

Thanks a lot, Jim. Always good to talk to you.