WTW 073 Mary Kelly - Developing Productive Leaders

Real treat today. I've been looking forward to talking to this person for a long time. It seems our paths keep almost crossing, and, uh, just a treat. And talk about someone who had some adventures, has had some adventures in life, and and continuing to have some adventures in life, if I heard the recent stories lately, Mary. So, uh, let's, uh, let's get right into it. Um, this is Mary Kelly. She's a— I don't— do I want to even say former Navy commander? Is this something that's still active? Are you still in the reserves? Or why don't you go ahead, you take it from there.

So if you are retired with an honorable discharge, you get to retain the rank that you retired at, and I retired as a commander.

All right. There you go. Honorably.

Yes. Yes.

We want to make that clear.

Well, it wasn't exactly that naughty. So there's that.

There you go. Well, if you were a Navy commander, you probably had some naughty in there, right?

We did. The Navy, the Navy does get to experience things that other people don't.

Hey, what was the thing? Adventure, right? Life's an adventure. Join the Navy. Something like that.

I believed all the commercials. That's why I joined the Navy. You know, join the Navy, see the world. And I wanted all of it.

There you go. Well, Mary's, you know, right now she's known as an internationally known speaker, author, several books. One of the ones that really struck me, let's start with this one, Mary, Why Leaders Fail, because it's interesting. You know, my experience, you know, life as a martial artist, we tend not to be afraid of that word failure because in case there are any people that still preserve the mythology, a dojo is not a place for success, it's a place for failure, right? So we can make— we can fail forward and take those failures and try to transform them into something positive. But hey, without the failure, we're not moving anywhere.

See, and that's exactly right. Where that all came from, you know, you and I both know there's about, you know, 8.5 million books on how to be a good leader. And you and I both know that because we've written some of them. And you know it's true.

I tried to avoid that subject directly. Yeah, I know.

But it's But it's one of those things where we tell people how to be a good leader, but we don't often tell people what they're doing that's sabotaging their own success. Just like in a dojo, one, like it's where your weight was at that moment and you moved your shoulder slightly off and it threw you off balance. What are you doing wrong that is inadvertently causing you to not be as successful as you'd like to be? And I like words with 3-word titles. Why Leaders Fail. Who comes next? Master Your World. And so we couldn't say, You know why leaders aren't as good as they probably should be? Because they're making really stupid mistakes. So, uh, it just lends itself. But the word failure, for a lot of people, they say, I don't want that book on my desk. I'm like, well, really? But it could be the truth. And a lot of people don't want that, which is so interesting. But the book is inordinately positive because we surveyed over 100,000 people to get the data for this book, and we asked them questions like Why are you not more successful at work? What do you wish your first-line supervisor knew? What do you wish your leadership was doing differently that would cause you to be more productive, more efficient, more effective? Where is the organization causing you to not be good? And what is getting in the way of your own self where you are not as good as you should be in different ways? So about 40 questions, different ways. And then we collated that data and that were— that became the 7 prescriptions for success that's in that book.

You know, that's interesting on a number of levels. First of all, you know, it sounds like we're one of our many intersections. You're talking about the— well, the word we use for it is empowerment, right? Do your people have what they need to succeed? And are you sure? How do you know, right? And that leads me to something else because I've been throwing your name around actually. Sometimes people will say, well, where's the research? Where's the research? Are you going to do research in this area? I say, I'm not a researcher. You kidding me? We're drowning in research. And one person that's done a lot of it is Mary Kelly, right? And it's interesting that you've gone to so many of these.

Years of graduate school will get you into that research mode.

Is that what it does?

Way too many years in graduate school. I was working, I was still working the whole time, so just took me a lot longer than everybody else.

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's get, we continue a little bit on that idea of failure because there was one piece of research I came across some years ago, and I believe it was Gallup. I think Gallup did it. They do a lot of these things, right? They had researched top-performing CEOs all over the world and were trying to determine how many catastrophic failures they had on their way to, you know, their— well, what they might consider at that time their ultimate success, right? The big one, the big payoff. And they found that the percentage was in the— it was well over 90% of what they started was a failure. But, you know, just like, was it Frank Sinatra? Dust yourself off, right? Get back in, keep on going. I don't remember the words.

Well, and John Paul Jones, one of our great Navy leaders— he started as a pirate, I should point out, and he was Scottish.

Well, that's not a bad thing.

Yeah, you know, um, he said, he will not risk, cannot win. Yeah, this is where I think a lot of people misunderstand leadership. Leadership is about taking risks. Leadership is about taking the right risks. Leadership is about seeing what's going to happen next. It's about preparing for contingencies. But you also got to be a little bit risky in the process. You know, you don't get better in the dojo by sitting on the mat and looking at everybody else.

Nope, nope. Well, that leads us to something else that, you know, we were talking about a little bit before we started the show. Uh, you know, I think I've been calling it this, this post-COVID partum, you know, syndrome. And the idea that And I understand, I get it. And I know one of the talks that you gave that I saw on video, you hit this, and this was some time ago too. This idea that there are a lot of crucial issues that are looming right now. But really, when you think about it, we can't predict the exact circumstances and conditions, but we sure as hell have a good handle on what we're gonna be facing, whether that be cash flow, whether that be— The one that really torques me these days is this whole idea of quiet quitting. And I said, been calling it disengagement for the last 75 years. This is nothing new, and I haven't seen the numbers change very much, but these things are predictable. What's exactly going to throw us into this state of crisis or catastrophe is, is up for debate, right? We don't know what the, what the circumstances, the conditions are going to be, but we know something's coming and we can prepare for it. And I like the whole thing that, you know, the idea that you talk about turning crisis into opportunity, because if we can get a grip on some of the more predictable catastrophes we're going to face. I mean, that's where everything happens, isn't it?

Absolutely. And if I might, I want to touch on that quiet quitting for just a second. That's not an employee issue. That's a management and accountability issue. If you are allowing your people to show up to work and do a half, you know, job, then that's on you. You're the leader. You're the manager. If you're not holding people accountable, then they're not going to hold themselves accountable either, in all likelihood. So that's you. That's on you, the leadership. The managers because you either didn't know what your people were doing, you didn't set good expectations, you didn't give them benchmarks, you didn't give them the right deadlines. That's on you. And I talk to a lot of people, young people, older people, who they say, well, my boss seems really happy with the work I'm doing. I'm like, but you're not really working. And they go, no. I'm like, well, how does that make you feel? Bad. I've got one young lady, she's in therapy because, because she says she goes to work and she doesn't feel valued. I'm like, well, are you working hard? Well, no. Yeah, how much work do you actually— real work do you do a week? Maybe 8 hours. Well, well, how does that make you feel about yourself? Bad. That's why I'm in therapy. I'm like, why don't you just show up to work and give 100% all the time? And she says, because nobody seems to care if I do.

Nobody seems— ah, yeah, isn't, isn't that the rub, huh? Isn't that the rub? Who's, who's got to care? Who's got to care first, right? I mean, you've got to care about it. And, and you're right, everything you're saying is right. I agree with you. Um, Again, it's nothing new. I mean, this has been going on. I think what's really reached a critical point these days is the complete breakdown of any desire to have a conversation, especially a tough one. And we see that societally, but we also see that reflected in the workplace. I mean, there's people who are just hesitant to have tough conversations, like for example, I don't think you're performing up to standards, expectations. Of course, as you— I agree with you 100%. It's the leader's responsibility to If not set, though, I think setting the expectations can be a cooperative effort. But certainly to make those expectations clear, to keep preaching those expectations, right, so people know, to make sure new people are aware of those expectations, right, bring them into the culture. So, you know, there's a lot of trouble we're unpacking there.

Oh, there's, there's a lot there. And part of it is, you know, if you're a leader or manager and you're not able to figure out the strengths of your people and see their potential, you're failing. And that's part of it. There's a lot of leaders who say, oh, we've got this round peg in this round hole and they're doing that job and that's fine. No, it's not fine. Your whole job as a leader is to grow your people into the right jobs and help them get better every single day. You don't go to the gym. You don't go to the dojo to stay the same. You go to get better. And for many people, they're like, no, the same is fine. No, it isn't fine.

No, the same is death. I mean, status quo is death.

The same means getting worse.

Yeah, well, you know what? Again, you hit— boy, we could— we're going to go off for a lot of different adventures here. When you're talking about understanding people's talents, understanding their capabilities, I'm seeing a lot of dependence. I thought it waned for a little while, but I'm seeing a hyperdependent. And I don't mean to offend anybody, but I tend to preach pretty vocally as the anti-assessment guy. You know what I mean? And I've got nothing against people that do these assessments and these things. My contention is that should be the beginning the conversation, not the end. And I see a hyper-dependence on assessments going back as far as the one that I hate the most, which is Myers-Briggs. But, you know, whatever is going on now, I have some friends that do DiSC, which I think is a little bit more effective. But still, you know, first of all, no assessment, no generalization reflects every individual or any individual, right? You still have to have that face-to-face contact. And I just, again, I guess that's probably the best way to put it. I just see a hyper-dependency on that. They do the assessment, they read somebody, and that's it. Am I missing something, or are we on the same page?

So this is where you and I slightly differ. I love assessments because I am constantly—

Well, you're a research person.

I'm a research person. So I survey people, I, you know, create these things, because all I'm looking for is a little insight. For a lot of my leaders, Jim, they're looking for just a little insight, a little nugget, a little thing like, OK, why, why can I not get Jim to do all the detail work? Well, because So I have my own assessment, as you know, it's called the Leader's Blind Spot Assessment. Because Jim's an Analyzer. And, you know, and the Analyzers love the details and the data. But there's certain other things that they're just not going to like, for example. So once you get some insight into other people, it just helps you have those conversations.

There it is.

And that, and that's what it's about. But you still have to have the conversations. So I think any tool that helps you get to know your people better, but also helps you get to know yourself better. I think it's helpful. I know that in, in my own assessment, I come across where one of my strengths is I like to get things done. One of my weaknesses, I get things done. And sometimes, sometimes if you're kind of in the way, that bulldozer might just come trucking over you. So, you know, I know that sometimes there's a perception there. So I'm not— I just am— I try to be self-aware. Having said that, you know, most people when they get my assessment, they're like, "Oh, that's me, that's me. Ouch!" And the ouch is what I'm looking for because, you know, we're all trying to get just a little bit better as a leader.

Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you 100%. It should be a tool. It shouldn't be the end, right? It should be part of, part of the equation. You just hit something really important though, too. Again, I think, I think leaders maybe are more prone to it than, than people who don't see it. And we can get into a whole debate about this, because one of my contentions is you're a leader whether you realize it or not. I mean, you're inspiring people whether you realize it or not. You're empowering them whether you realize it or not. You're guiding them. You might be guiding them the right way. You might be guiding them the wrong way. You might be guide— whatever. But I think that's a recognition. Of course, too many people still equate leadership with a rank or a title. That's a whole different argument. But you hit on this idea of strengths. And I think people who are— let's couch it this way. People who recognize themselves as leaders are often hamstrung by their own strengths, aren't they? I mean, sometimes our strengths can really get in our way.

Well, our strengths get in the way because, again, sometimes as leaders, we're looking for the easiest, most efficient and effective path.

Hmm.

I'll just tell you, in a group of people, if I can find another military person in my audience, I know right away there are certain things I can do with that person that I can't assume with other people. This is where sometimes we get in our own way. Likes tend to hire likes. Like, I would naturally gravitate to other veterans, for example. I know that in my organization, I don't need another veteran. I got that perspective. I need to hire people who are not like me. So for us as leaders, it's easy sometimes for us to surround ourselves with people like us when in fact we need to surround ourselves with people without our skill sets. So I'm always fond of saying, wherever your weaknesses are, that's where you should hire for. You're probably not very good at it, and then you need to delegate it Decide, delegate, disappear, and let your people do that. And then people come back all the time with the delegation model, and you see this all the time, and they say, but they don't do it the way I want it done. Yeah, maybe their way is better. Maybe you need to give them the chance. So I'm very fond of giving people a long leash and go, go run with this, and then let's see where you go and let's figure this out. Because I don't claim to have all the answers, and I need as many different perspectives as possible. Now, I'm still, I'm still the one in charge. The buck stops with me. And when I make the decision and I'm wrong, that's on me. Nobody else.

Well, there's where we're getting into. I think there's still an area. I know it's an area that we cover an awful lot in our events is that people still have the, they conflate this idea of authoritarianism with authoritative, right? That it is ultimately your responsibility. There is— it is a responsibility, particularly that we can't divorce ourselves from the management hierarchy. We do make a distinction here between management and leadership, but if you're part of that management hierarchy, the higher up you are, the more I think— the more it's your responsibility to make critical decisions. And you can't divorce yourself from that. But there's a difference between the two. And it's always fascinating because I so admire so many of you, so many of my friends that or, you know, participated in military leadership, because from the outside, people still have this idea that this is a strict command and control. And I've never seen more compassionate leaders than I see people from the military. And this idea that, you know, yes, sometimes you do have to issue commands, and sometimes we need to obey commands. I was part of the fire service, and that's, that's something you learn there. Your life depends on that. However, if you don't respect trust and, and that person hasn't learned your earned your loyalty, you're not going to follow those commands. I mean, you're going to find a way around it, or you're going to do the bare minimum. So it's always fascinating to hear that from that perspective. And again, um, I'm going to restate this point, and I hope you'll take it from there, that I do believe that the most compassionate leaders that I've met were people with military experience.

Well, think about the fact that our Navy ships routinely go out for 6 or 9 months at a time. There's no weekends. There's no nights off. You don't get to just stop the ship in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, in miles and miles of ocean, because, hey, it's Friday, it should be happy hour, we should all just kick back for a while. It doesn't work that way. You work 24/7, you work hard, you've got your day job, and then you've got your watch, which is your additional duties to make the ship function. And you're busy and you're tired. And you don't get that kind of level of participation by being dictatorial. And what we oftentimes confuse, like Patton and MacArthur and all that, do this, do this my way. What you have to do is you have to coalesce teams. You have to encourage cooperation. You have to help people work together as a team. And keep in mind, you're not hiring these people. You just have to deal with whatever the Navy sends you, whatever the Army sends you, whatever the Air Force or the Marine Corps sends you. That's what you have to make work. And once you get that person in, you got to figure out, okay, uh, this is not what I was hoping for, but you got to make it work. And that—

find a way for that person to contribute, right?

You have to find a way to make their strengths work for the organization. And you have to be good at it. And you have to be fast at it. Because otherwise, you know, there's, there's issues. And you have to remember that the average age of somebody on one of my aircraft carriers is 19 and a half.

Right. They're children, really.

Yeah. Well, and we have to, I mean, you have to turn them into what you need to turn them into. And frankly, we're pretty good at it when left, when allowed to do that. But that leadership comes at the very lowest level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And if you look at the quiet quitting, you know, people tell their bosses all these things. Well, I'm leaving for another industry. No, they're not. They hate their boss. Well, I'm leaving to take advantage of this, you know, opportunity. Yeah, they hate their boss. Oh, I'm leaving to move to Kansas. No, they hate their boss. And that's at the very lowest level of leadership. So we build leadership. We work on leadership starting at the beginning because you're going to make mistakes. And you know who holds you accountable? 19-year-olds. They're very good at holding you accountable, right?

So you, you know, and I hope that didn't come across as, as, you know, something that was disparaging. I don't mean that. At 19 years old, I was a child. I mean, that's, that's just the facts that we're closer to being children than we are as adults. And, and it's a very fast transition, especially when you're thrown into something like the military or the fire service, right? You have to, you have to change rapidly. Um, go ahead.

No, and so that's part of that thing where people mistake the military as being sort of dictatorial and all that, right? But I gotta tell you, military leadership is— you're not just looking at the job people are doing when they're on the job. And that's what I see missing in a lot of, uh, private and corporate environments. People are afraid to ask questions. Um, you know, I taught at both the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy, and sometimes I'd see a young person and they're just not where they need to be, and they're drifting off. And so I would go, hey, let me just grab you after class for just a second. Come on over here. Is there something going on that I should know about that is causing you to lose focus in my class?

I wish I had run into you at that time.

Well, and then that's when you get the issues. Well, my girlfriend, my boyfriend, my mom, my dog, my whatever. You get all those other— and those are personal issues. And sometimes leaders in the workplace, we forget the holistic person. And in the military, we deal with the holistic person all the time. And I think that's where you might see that level of what's interpreted as compassion when it's we have to be concerned with the whole person and the family and everything else.

Well, you know, it is interesting that, you know, the way you said it— I, I like the way that you, that you frame that, the analog you use— that, for instance, let's say you're out in the middle of the ocean on a ship and there really isn't any escape from that community, and you, you're faced to, out of necessity, after you look— but why is that any different these days, you know? And it's interesting, especially in this very weird climate that we're in now, where unemployment rate is so low but there's so many job openings, right? That's a dangerous place we haven't been in too many times in history. And so I think every organization in a way should employ that analog of being like a ship out on the ocean, right? You've got people that you're dealing with right now. And I can't tell you how many managers that I've heard lately say, you know, they'll bring me a story. I say, why don't you fire that person? Well, I can't. I've got nobody to take their place.

You know, that's the wrong answer. That is— now, if you are that manager who's had to fire the last 10 people and you are— because I had one of these people and they said, well, I'm just going to keep firing people until HR sends me somebody good. Okay, I'm gonna go out and tell you you're the problem, not your people, just as a point, because they're not making the people work. And that's the whole idea. You got to make the job work and the people work, and everything has to work together, and they're not doing that. However, if you're— if you are holding somebody accountable and they flat out say, I don't want to work, yeah, then that person needs to go. Because if you are— if you are treating your top talent the same as you're treating your bottom talent, guess what? You're going to lose your top talent because they're sick of having to do the job of your lower talent, and your lower talent is just skating by. And those people do need to go. But you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's just such a terrible medieval image. But you don't necessarily look at the whole team and say, well, that whole division is doing poorly. Therefore, you look at where the good spots are and then you replicate the good. But at the same time, you cannot be afraid of firing somebody because you're so afraid of not finding somebody else. And that—

you're being unfair to the other people around you.

You're allowing your bad employees to hold you hostage and you're allowing your bad employees to not have you make the good decisions that frankly, the rest of your employees are desperately hoping you're going to make the right choice.

There's something else you said that I'd like to challenge in the spirit of, you know, opening up some, some, you know, I think constructive debate here that I've been letting some leaders off the hook as far as people leaving these days. And it's because I've heard, I've had conversations, particularly in our Rising Leader tracks where I know that person's not staying with the organization even though they love it and they love their boss, they love their management, they love their leadership, they love the company. But I'm seeing more and more that younger people are making the decision that they just want to be somewhere else. They want to go to a different part of the country. Or sometimes people get involved, you know, romantically with somebody and they're going to relocate to where the other person is most comfortable. Sometimes it's just for adventure or to switch industries. Now, that's not always the case. Obviously, we have to look in the mirror first. But I'm seeing more and more of that. And my contention was, you know, there's that meme going around on LinkedIn that said, what happens if I invest a lot in training this person and they leave? And of course, the answer is what happens if you don't and they stay? And so what I've been saying to people is, look, just enjoy them while they're here. I mean, if that's why they're leaving, if they're leaving, first of all, they're going to become part of your network. That usually happens more often than not. But the other part is they're going to be your best people while they're there if you're still treating them properly, right? And let's get the most out of people we can. And it seems that there's a parallel to military where people will sign on for a specific term of service, right? You know they're not going to be there forever. But you still want to maximize their productivity, their contribution. Am I way off base, or you think we're singing in harmony again?

So, I think we're singing in harmony. I'll tell you why. You have to remember that we change jobs every 2 to 3 years. So think about that for a second. Half to one-third of your workforce is gone every single year, every single year. So you have to be constantly reiterating the mission, the vision, the goals. You have to be constantly training. You have to be constantly looking for process improvement. And every change has to mean a little bit of improvement. And not only that, every single person in the organization is responsible for helping the person who comes after them be successful, which is very, very different in the corporate world. A lot of times in the corporate world, people leave and they're like, well, good riddance, and good luck to the person who follows me. That's not how it's supposed to be. So in one of my books called Who Comes Next, the one I co-authored with Meredith Elliott Powell— she's brilliant— it's all about succession planning and how do we do a better job retaining the right talent but also grooming our people for, for the jobs they want, for the next level. And it's interesting to me that, first off, not everybody wants to advance. Some people are right where they are. But that doesn't mean they can't get better. And interestingly enough, 78% of millennials say they will leave a job if they are not personally and professionally developed. Yes. They want both. They want that holistic—

even without the ambition of promotion. Exactly.

Absolutely. And right now, especially because you and I touched on this before the show started, that we're We're in crisis. We're in crisis mode. And one of the big crises is for most people, they took a 10% pay cut last year because of inflation. That's just how the math works. Because of that, personal finance—

I knew you were going to bum me out. You started talking about e-com.

I know, but I'm going to be careful about it. There you go. We've seen more and more leaders reach out and say, hey, can you help my people with some personal finance and help my people do a little bit better? Because we're paying them— subscribing to the theory of efficiency wages, that we're paying our people as much as they can, but they're not managing their money very well. And in 2020, 49% of Americans, Jim, were living paycheck to paycheck.

Now— oh, I hear you. That's how I've lived most of my life.

I mean, yeah, I'm— and so now it's 63%. And before, I was worried about the folks between $30,000 a year and $70,000 a year, because below $30,000, you get you do get a lot of entitlements and benefits and all those other things. So you're doing okay. I mean, no, no, I hear you.

I hear you.

Yeah. But I was worried about the 30 to 70. And keep in mind, the median income for a family in America right now is just about $71,000. That's the median. That's not the average, the median. So now, now the people living paycheck to paycheck, it's $30,000 to $150,000. And so people are getting squeezed. So they're looking for resources. So we have to look holistically when we think about helping our people be better. And the training and the education and the development, it has to be more than just, "This is how you make a good sales call." There's a lot of other ways you can.

Exactly. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more. Couldn't agree with you more. Again, I wish I had run into you earlier.

I can't wait to run into you at one of our conferences. And you touched on at the beginning, how do we turn crises into opportunities?

Yeah.

So very quickly, I taxonomize everything. My brain loves to put things into categories. So I taxonomize crises as the geopolitical things. So all the geopolitics, you know, Russian in Ukraine and China thinking about invading Taiwan and, you know, refugees in Syria and Turkey and the earthquake and all the geopolitical things. And then economic things, things like taxes, inflation, GDP, where the job growth is or is not. And then workplace issues like how do you How do we motivate the team? Loyalty, collegiality, cooperative competition. How do we genuinely grow the pie for everybody? And then domestic issues, crime and education and social justice and all those things. But then there's personal crises. What I try to tell my leaders is if somebody's got a personal crisis, they don't care about those other 4 categories. Let's say your spouse suddenly gets a terrible diagnosis. Your dad goes in the hospital. Kid, you know, was in an accident. You don't care about any of those other crises. All you can focus on very myopically is the crisis in front of you, because that is the most deeply personal crisis.

Oh, no, I agree with you. I mean, still, our two strongest instincts as human beings are self-preservation, right? And self-interest. And that's, that's the way we're wired.

Absolutely. And so sometimes during, like, the last few years, some people sort of forgot that They're like, wait a second, if you feel like your family is being threatened or your friends are being threatened, you don't really care about some big picture issues. You don't really care that we're opening a branch in Houston. You don't care. You care about what you can control. You're very much about circle the wagons, protect what you can protect, and stay very myopically focused on the areas most important to you. And that may or may not be your job. So as a leader, part of that is how do I get my people people to look a little bit more externally and to focus on the job, on what, what will give them satisfaction and purpose and meaning in their life.

Focus on what we can control and worry less about the things we can't control, right? I mean, that— and that— but that's an interesting thing too, because, you know, our generation was the first, I think, the first generation really that had grave concerns about things that were happening. I mean, even in World War II, I don't think they had to— maybe, maybe But when the nuclear threat really became the issue, right, and this is— I'm dating myself, but I just saw this interview about duck and cover, and I remember that, you know, our wooden desk was going to protect us. Yeah, yeah. So we had that worldview, and now people are feeling those pressures. You know, I think COVID really brought that to a head where I think the average person is feeling more stress you know, from these geopolitical issues, which we were rather insulated from, you know, not too long ago.

But it's because we didn't have things like cell phones and TVs with more than one channel, and we were the antenna and the remote. So we've simply got more information now than we've ever had, and it is very, very easy to, to look at the news and be caught up in the emotional turmoil that is the media instead of the facts associated with, with what actually is happening. And this is what I work— you and I both work, I think, similarly with our, with our leaders. And that is focus on what is important. Let's just get— let's get rid of all this other chatter. Get rid— in the military, it's chaff. Chaff is a distraction. When you're flying a plane and there's a missile locked onto you, you release chaff. Chaff is a distraction, right? Get rid of the chaff, everything that's around you, and focus on the core issues that are most important. Prioritize. Be very clear. Don't let all this chatter get in your head. Don't let the emotional components of other people get in the way of you being very, very focused. Now, it doesn't mean that you dismiss other people's emotional levels. That's what we have to address. And that is, hey, I understand you're in this stage of a crisis, challenge, or change. Would you feel better if you got beyond this stage of feeling very emotional and very reactive? Let's be proactive. Because when you can be proactive, you can take control. This is exactly what martial arts is. You're using the other people's energy, body weight, and movement against them by being able to deflect it and move it. So you're not getting sucked into the vortex of playing their game. You play your—

well, you hit, you hit another very deep point as far as, you know, you burrowed right into a key component of, of most martial arts practices, that idea of focus that people— and people are so often confused about that, you know, where, uh, focus, I think, in Western culture tends to be, I'm gonna focus on something, right? And there is a little bit of truth to that, to have you know, to direct your energy to a specific point. But more important, the idea of focus is letting go of— I say distractions and detractions, right? People that are trying to knock you down. It's a— focus is more of a matter of letting go than it is a forced concentration, if that makes sense. And you, I think you just burrowed right into that.

I totally agree, because many people, again, they get up and they watch the news, and you know, they're already They're tired, they're stressed, they're feeling disengaged from the universe. And then they see the news and there's all this emotional turmoil in the news. They can't do much about most of those things— the geopolitical, the economic, the workplace, the domestic. They can't do anything about those things.

Yeah, don't worry about that anyway, because all that screwed up stuff's still going to be there tomorrow.

And so, so then because of that, they either get frustrated and angry or they get so wildly myopic that they're not helpful to other people. And this, again, as leaders, as managers, we have to be focused on other people. We cannot stay in our own little brain, our own little bubble. We need to control the things that we can control and help the other people around us stay focused on the things that they should.

I think that's a great place to wrap things up for today. And you're on the hook now. I'm not even going to ask you if you're coming back. You're coming back.

Oh, you know I am. I love you. This is great. This is great fun.

No, I think this is the start of something really special. And, and, uh, I've got a whole page of notes here, things that we're going to burrow into in future visits. So, terrific, Mary. It's so, so wonderful to finally get to talk to you face-to-face. And again, we'll keep that going. But as always, I want to make sure people understand where to get in touch with you, how to best reach out to you. And then I want to give you the last word.

Oh, thanks. So productiveleaders.com/podcast. Because you've got such great listeners, I want to make sure they get some great value and some amazing tools that might just help them with some of their day-to-day challenges. So productiveleaders.com/podcast. And folks out there, just remember, you may not be sitting in the big chair, but you are still a leader and people are still following you. Perfect.