Argue Less: Assert Yourself by Framing Conversations

The next argument you have doesn't have to be an argument at all. And if that kind of piques your interest, this episode's for you.

If I can get you to understand that if you just flip the, the structure of a sentence, or if I can get you to replace one word, you're gonna have a far different outcome in the conversation, making very simple strategic moves.

In the heat of the moment, so many of us, uh, can get emotionally hijacked.

Wait, excuse me, you're gonna talk to me like that?

Let me—

me? What about you? And that is becoming defensiveness. If I say instead, I can tell I'm getting defensive.

You could actually train your mind to talk, to connect, to understand better without losing your cool. So in today's episode, we are going to decode the science and the processes, the mental strategies behind powerful, peaceful communication.

Let me tell you, That's the wrong way to think about it. Confidence is not what you do before. Confidence is the outcome. Confidence is—

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I am your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. I have a question for you. Have you ever walked away from a conversation thinking, why did that get so heated? Or, I wish I had said that better. And you were left wondering why yet another conversation didn't pan out as you envisioned. Today, we're joined by someone who goes up against people whose primary job is to make sure he loses every single day. Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a speaker, and the bestselling author of this book, which I highly recommend. It's called The Next Conversation. So all our Kwik readers could get your copy. When it comes to a jury trial, the stakes are, as you can imagine, incredibly high. Jefferson is here to share with us how you can show up, as more of your best self, even in life's and work's hardest conversations. So welcome to the show, Jefferson.

Man, great, great to meet you, Jim. And I, I'm just honored and thrilled to be able to talk, uh, to the, the Kwik community. I, I feel like y'all are the gold standard of lifelong learners. So to, to be here and talk with you, man, it's, it's a huge honor. I'm, I'm, I'm, I feel welcome.

I'm, I'm excited for this conversation about Conversations.

Yeah, me too, man.

I'm a little self-conscious now. I wasn't before, but when you and I were chatting before about the work that I do, I always, you know, I know people are more conscious of their mind and their brain and their focus, their memory. I find myself more self-aware of the words that I'm using. So I— that could only be a good thing. I'm sure you get that a lot.

Yeah, it's going to be great. It's going to be great. I'm excited.

I really enjoyed the book. In there, you talk about in the next conversation, what maybe we could start with what exactly that means and why is it, you know, at what part that your mindset, you know, plays in communication, especially it's a game changer for, I think, for people who want to argue less and and influence and communicate more?

I called the book The Next Conversation because at its most simplest form, people didn't start watching my videos to learn how to handle the last conversation. They watched my videos, which, if anybody listening has ever seen them, I make these videos that are in my car. That's how I started, that are less than 1 minute. And I give a 1-2-3, very practical, easy to implement strategy that they can use right away. And it's not to handle their last conversation, it's to handle their next conversation. And the thing about the conversation that comes next is the very conversation that can change your life. If you look at things you've done in the past and you think, I wish I would have said that better, I regretted saying that word, I regretted saying this and that, that kind of stuff carries with you. Yeah. What I teach is that you can change it all simply by what you decide to say next. And so I teach in very simple terms of if I can get you to understand that if you just flip the structure of a sentence, or if I can get you to replace one word, you're going to have a far different outcome in the conversation, making very simple strategic moves.

And what would you say, because, you know, I usually help people support their neurological networks, right? But this is external, your social networks. What would you say are some of the big mistakes or myths that people make, especially when approaching difficult conversations at work or at home? What do you— think kind of comes up for you in terms of the big mistakes or myths that people believe around communication and conversation?

2 big things come to mind, Jim, is that one, we make the mistake of thinking our words don't matter when every word does. For every person listening now, I want you to think back in time of You were at the playground at school, and you remember somebody who said something mean to you. I promise you, you'll think of something, and it might be the very first time that insecurity was formed. The very first time you go, "What?

What?

What? I'm—you mean I'm not the smartest? I'm not the best? You know, my parents told me I was the most perfect everything, and now I'm getting made fun of," and you carry it with you. And that happened— it could have happened 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 30 years ago, but you'll remember those words. And every word matters because they, they solidify into our, our memory, which of course you, you know way more than me, Jim, how that happens. Biggest second mistake is thinking that what is said was exactly what was heard. We feel like just because we said it, that's exactly how they received it. And usually that's not— that is the exception. Too many times we get into an argument. If you doubt that premise, how many times have you been into an argument and somebody said, you were just so mean, and you go, no, I wasn't. Tell me what I said. And then they regurgitate what you said and you Do they do it perfect? No. You go, that's not what I said. That's not how I said it. That's not what I— and we get into this squabble, this fight over, as if I am the judge and the observer of my message. And instead of saying this, that's not what I said fight, flip it to ask, what did you hear? What did you hear? What did you see? What words did I use? Being able to hear their perspective of it is going to be a whole lot bigger picture because you're quickly getting to the intent. What I teach is that, you know, what you say is who you are. For the vast majority of your life, people only experience you based on what comes out of your mouth. You say nice things, congrats, you're a nice person. You say mean things, you're now a mean person. You're If you say funny things, you're a funny person. It is just simply the power of the words that you choose and the words that come out of your mouth will determine how people think about you, what your reputation is going to be, what people will say about you when you're no longer here. Remember, it's that whole saying of, they don't remember what you said, they remember how you made them feel.

Feel.

And so using your words to project how you want to be seen in the future, Whoever you want to be, start using those words now. That's the biggest mistakes I see is people not understanding the true power of their language.

And is there a difference between hearing and listening from your perspective? Like, if people struggle because they don't just hear the words, right, they're hearing tone, the emotion behind them. Is there maybe a shift for our listeners to help kind of decode what someone really means behind Those words, you know, that how they have those stats that is it accurate 7% in terms of what influences another individual, 7% words, 38% voice tone and volume, timbre, pitch, and then whatever, 55%, you know, more body language. I don't know if that rings true for you.

Sure it does. As an example, let's just use the word okay. Which is as simple as it could be. The word doesn't change. My tone can change everything if I just go okay, or okay, or okay. Like it's same word, all three different connotations, all three different messages, or very maybe it's a very quiet okay. Each one signals something else. So absolutely, I would say how you say it. Certainly has a greater emphasis on the message that is going to be received. Your question is, is there really a difference between hearing and listening? That's a great question. I haven't really considered that. This is what comes to mind. Hearing for me is simply the a natural process in your body of absorbing sound. Like you, you hear a baby cry. You hear a bus going by. You hear a car honk. Listening is listening to music. It's listening to people's words. To me, something of listening, I can hear you make sound to me, talking to me right now. That does not mean I'm listening. Plenty of times, for any parents out there, you know good and well. You could tell your child, I need you to go put your shoes on. Did they hear you? Yes. Were they listening? Absolutely not. There's plenty of times where it's, I hear, I hear noise, but that does not mean I'm, I'm listening, especially if I'm doing something. Maybe you're writing or you're working and you hear somebody ask a question and you're, it's, you're not absorbing it. You're not listening to it. So to me, listening has this additional layer of Not just hearing it, but grabbing that information, internalizing it, analyzing it, interpreting it for information and value to you. And so in, in conversation, the more you can have this kind of two-sided thing of acknowledgment and understanding, which forms connection, that's what you want to be— the, the better listener. Don't just hear the words, you need to listen to them.

It's almost like the difference between looking at something and really seeing it. If we're ever going to talk about another one of our senses. What I found fascinating in the book as a trial lawyer, let's say in a courtroom setting, are there certain things that you teach your clients or everyone who's listening here to avoid? Maybe one that works surprisingly well in everyday conversations, like, like one of those kind of mistakes.

When I have a client and they're going to give a deposition, meaning they're going to give some testimony under oath before trial or at trial, where they're going to either give testimony through direct examination or cross-examination, I go through a pretty rigorous Training, like a big preparation with them for it. And anybody who's been in litigation knows knows this. But yeah, here's some major things that I I prepare them for. One is do not have the rapid fire response. We often feel in conversation that just because somebody said something, we have to have a really quick response. And What that does is ensures that you weren't really listening. Plenty of times I ask somebody a question and they want to kind of step on my question at the very end of it. I might not even get through my question, but they already feel like they know where I'm going and they will answer it right away. That's a surefire way of not really listening. Most of the time you're giving the attorney exactly what they want because they want that really quick yes and quick no. 2 is understanding that Nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say. Nobody can force you to answer in the time frame that they want. So one quick way of doing that is— I teach it— you let your breath be the first word that you say. So anybody listening, if you feel like you're in conversation with somebody and you feel friction and they start saying something you don't like, the first thing you typically do Is you hold your breath and then you start shifting around. I, I know you're listening, so you probably can't see me, but those who are seeing me, this is what it, it looks like. All of a sudden you hear something you don't like. What do you do? You kind of roll your eyes, you look around, you, you shift. You might take in breath, but you're not letting it out, and you tense up your body. Why? Because you're ready and prepared to throw something right back at them. And what happens is that, that logical side of your brain, you know, this just shuts off. And so now I'm, I'm feeling my emotions and I'm going to have an emotional response. When I— you put a breath, meaning where your first word would be, put a breath in its place, it's going to help you have a lot more clarity, going to make you sound a lot more controlled and make you sound a lot more calm. Those kind of things are very, very easy to do, and it helps you. Stay much more regulated in the conversation. I call it a conversational breath. I know those of you listening, everybody here, you have an extremely intelligent community, Jim, and it's a double inhalation breath. They might know it as a physiological sigh. That's where you have 2 inhalations, so like 3 seconds in through the nose, 2 more seconds up at the top, and then out through the nose again. So that double inhalation mimics a sigh, and you can do it quietly. You can— it does not have to be exaggerated. You do it as soon as before you respond. You do it whenever you're getting information you don't like, and that's going to help regulate you. So that's one of the number one tips that I give, especially people who feel nervous in the conversation, that they're going to get, get worked up. Because in litigation, you can start talking about stuff that, that, uh, of course it's, it's conflicted, it's uncomfortable, It might be embarrassing, might be things you don't like. So those who control the pace of the conversation are the very ones who control themselves.

And there's always a promise behind every principle. And I feel like people should rewind that and listen to it again. You know, maybe I could take this in a different direction because I love to workshop this. When I posted that we'd be having this conversation, I asked what some of the big challenges people have. Maybe I could give you not so much an elaborate scenario, but just kind of an idea and then love your kind of quick response to it. One of the challenges was, and maybe this, the answer would be something like a physiological sigh. The challenge our community wanted me to bring up was how they get emotionally triggered and they lose kind of control, right? In the heat of the moment, so many of us can get emotionally hijacked, if you will, and our brain goes into fight, flight, freeze. Which— do you have a go-to strategy to kind of like calm your nervous system so you could stay calm, collected, clear-headed when everything in us wants to react, right? It could be a family matter. It could be something at work. It'd be a potential, you know, client situation.

One would be realize what's happening in that moment. I know that's easier said than done, but you can do it because we all know that feeling of all of a sudden you bristle, the spikes come out, your body tenses, maybe your eyes start to water, maybe your breath gets heavier, maybe your muscles tense. That is your body saying in that moment, I'm ready to fight. I'm ready to say something hurtful. I'm ready to say something that stings, all to make the threat go away, or I'm ready to run from it. I want to hang up the phone. I want to slam the door and leave. In that moment, it is to realize it is my body that is driving the decisions right now. So 2, the breath certainly helps. The breath is the number one way to regulate your system and communication to make sure that you stay calm. 3 would be a technique that I like to use. It's beginning the phrase, I can tell. Very easy to do. I can tell. When you claim it, you control it. So if I'm feeling aggravated or I'm feeling defensive, if I— and our typical default is to then become and act out that defensiveness. That sounds like you can't— what? Excuse me? You're going to talk to me like that? Me? What about you? And that is becoming defensiveness. If I say instead, I can tell I'm getting defensive, I can tell I'm feeling aggravated, I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. Any of that kind of stuff is wonderful in being able to, instead of acting out those behaviors which are detrimental to the conversation. Why? Because you're not in control of it. Your emotions are. Um, and second of all, it's like when I say I can tell, I can tell I'm not feeling myself right now, and it's, it's best if we push this conversation to this afternoon. That is, is one, a huge sign of emotional intelligence. 2, a huge sign of self-awareness. 3, it's like writing it out on a sheet of paper and now putting it out on the table in front of you. You're not becoming the feeling, you're aware of that feeling, and now you're able to express it a whole lot more. Now Jefferson never becomes— Jefferson is defensive. Jefferson is feeling defensive. I have a wide range of emotions. Everybody does. And so it's just realizing in that moment, I am, I am only feeling something. I am not becoming that something. So I can tell is a wonderful phrase, especially in, in conversation where you need to express it, because when you express it, It is a wonderful way of still driving yourself rather than letting the emotions take the wheel.

I love these kind of, these quick little tips because it's kind of like a small hinge that could swing out like a really large door, right? There's a lot of leverage. Oh yeah. Like small little things to get so much great returns, like almost a force multiplier. The second challenge run by you is I had to remember this. Not knowing how to start a difficult conversation. A lot of people put them off, but something needs to be addressed or said in a family matter and a relationship at work, maybe a termination, some kind of difficult conversation. I don't know if maybe we could give an example or something or a suggestion on how to circumvent that. Like, what's the biggest mistake people make when opening a difficult or tough conversation and what would be the better way to kind of disarm that tension and create, like, a psychological safety?

Our default when it comes to difficult conversations is feeling like we need to create this soft landing. That means we typically begin with small talk. Let's say You and I were in a work situation. Let's put that example, and let's say Jim, by some some way you worked for me somehow. So I'm the supervisor, you're the employee, and you come and sit down. I emailed you early. I said we need to talk, which is the worst way to begin because it creates that anxiety. Nobody likes we need to talk. You're automatically makes you automatically think okay. Oh no, something wrong is going on. So already I've created a tense situation there. You come and sit down in my office, and for anybody listening, tell me how you think of how you feel when you're about to hear this. You come and sit down, Jim. I say, hey Jim, how are you? You good? How's the, the family? Kids doing okay? Yeah. Oh, this weather is, is crazy, isn't it? Have you picked— have you tried pickleball yet? You know, I did it the other day. And it was good. Well, good. I'm glad to hear you're all right. Um, so listen, there it is, right? Right. That's, that's the phrase. So listen, and then I start dribbling it out. You know, you've just been such a wonderful team member. I'm talking in past tense now. We've really enjoyed, you know, getting to, to know you. Now here, here's the, the question. Is this kind to you? Do you feel like this is comfortable, or does this make you feel more anxious?

Definitely more, more anxious.

More anxious, for sure. Does it make you feel like anything I said before mattered at all? Did it sound like I really cared about how you were doing? No, it's all of this small talk workup. It's not to make the other person feel better. It's to make me feel better because I'm afraid to jump into it. I'm afraid of how you're going to respond. I still want you to like me. I'm afraid I'm gonna— you're gonna be disappointed with me. All of that stuff is incredibly unkind. I know it comes from a good place, but in conversation, communication, it really breeds a lot of contempt, uh, because they don't feel like you're being genuine, you're being transparent. So quick thing, instead of this small talk. I want you to label the conversation right out of the gate. And it is the effect of this, like we talked about those hinge moments, how do you— how are you able to, to use them in a way that's going to increase and multiply the outcome that you want? We're going to label it right out of the gate. So instead of this, hey, how are you doing? You good? How's your family? You're going to come in, sit down, and I say, Jim, this is going to be a difficult conversation. All right? You're going to say something like, this is going to be hard for us to talk about. You're not going to like what I have to say. This might come as a surprise to you. This is going to be a— it's as easy as saying, this is going to be a difficult talk.

Hmm.

Any of that right there is a wonderful way of labeling what the journey is you and I are about to go on. I'm telling you right out of the gate, this isn't going to be fun. It's not going to be enjoyable. It's not going to be easy. So getting that out of the way is a wonderful way of being much more honest. So let's play it out in that scenario. You come and sit down, and I say, this is going to be a difficult conversation. And what are you going to do? I'm going to give you a little second pause, and you're going to take a breath, and you're going to go, okay. I mean, you're going to naturally— you're going to nod like, all right. I'm in it. That's when I'm going to tell you, I need to let you go, or I need to pull you from the project, or I am giving you the takeaway right there. That's the takeaway. Then I can lead with the complimentary stuff. You've been a wonderful part of the team. I'm looking forward to see what's going on, what you have in your— the future of your career. Just know it's not going to be here. I mean, and let us know how I can help. I want to be a whatever. And same thing with like, if you're going to break up with somebody, you know, you, you need to have that talk. You stay, sit down instead of going, hey, you know what? Uh, you've just been so great and I've enjoyed getting to know you. They already know we're breaking up, like automatically. Of course we know that. But when you sit down and say, I need to, I need to have a hard talk with you.

It makes me, Jefferson, think about that, that, that sandwich thing, that, that, that analogy people talk about. Oh, the compliment sandwich? Yeah. You say something, you know, uh, You know, positive, and then you say the thing that you really want to say, right? And then you, you end with something positive. Is that—

No, I, I actually am not a fan of the compliment sandwich because one, it's misnamed. All right. It's really the insult sandwich because if you call a— all right, you have bread, let's say ham and bread. You call that a ham sandwich. Great. The compliment sandwich is compliment, insult, The meat is the insult. So it's really a— it's the insult sandwich. So that's one. Second of all, I've always found the compliment sandwich very hard to chew. It never really feels genuine. I'd much rather frame the conversation with, I'm going to tell you something that's difficult because I know you can take it.

Mm-hmm.

I'm going to tell you this because I know you're resilient. I'm going to tell you this because I know you value honesty. Then say what you need to say. That is, I am building you up. I'm giving you values. I am bringing you with me in the conversation. I'm not letting it go. I'm not leaving you there while I continue to progress. This is us walking hand in hand. Another strategy for difficult conversations is find ways to turn your buts into ands. It moves progress into the conversation. The word but deletes everything that came before it. Like, if you told your wife, you said, look, I love you, but what you—

Just—

You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's just erased everything. Same thing with at work. I think the proposal is, is wonderful, but I, I— what I, I found was it kind of lacked, you know, a lot of congruency or something. Instead, use the word and. I like the proposal and what I'd like to see, or, and what would make it even better. I love you, and because I love you, I'm going to tell you blah blah blah. Finding ways to turn your buts into ands is a, is a high-level skill. And once you realize it, you'll see it in emails all the time of like, if you just flip that but into and, it's going to make that conversation feel a whole lot better. Why? Because we like to feel like I'm going to give you a compliment, and we're all waiting for it. The but. We feel it coming on. We can even anticipate it in conversation. But when you start using and, you're building onto it, which is a whole lot better.

I like it. Again, something so simple that can make, you know, people, you have to have some, a little bit of behavioral change. You know, then a lot of it sounds like self-awareness. Like, to be conscious and intentional about our communication. Third challenge that people reported was feeling unheard or misunderstood. So they don't listen to me. They just are waiting for their turn to speak. You know, what are some of the subtle but maybe a powerful tool to make someone truly feel heard, even, even when you don't agree with them? In a world where everyone has access to the same information, the same tools, your mind is your only true competitive advantage. But here's the reality. Most of us, we learn what to think in school. We learn a lot of facts and formulas and procedures, but nobody taught us how to think. That's exactly what Kwik Thinking does. In our flagship program, in just 21 days, 3 weeks, inside you'll discover How to think clearly under pressure instead of freezing up. How to accelerate your learning speed so it becomes your real superpower so you can adapt faster than ever before. How to absorb and retain more information with less mental energy and effort. If you're ready to unlock your limitless mind, click the link on the screen. Stop letting unclear thinking hold you back from the life that you're truly capable of creating?

Oh, I love that. So several things come to mind. One is understanding that if you don't agree with them, there's no problem with that. You don't have to talk and say things as if you feel like you can't do it. Understand in that moment, don't argue the point, argue their perspective. So instead of saying, I disagree, What's going to happen if you say something to me and I just go, Jim, I don't agree? You're naturally not going to listen to anything I say. You're now going to kind of reshape your defenses. You're going to build a moat, build a taller bridge. You're now going to defend your position even more. So me telling you you're wrong is only encouraging you to feel more right. And so you're not listening to what I'm saying. You're only start thinking of your next response. Instead of saying, I disagree, I want you to use, I see things differently. I see things differently. Now, I'm not arguing your point. I am sharing my perspective. So when you use words of perspective, like what you see, perspective, what I'm looking at, my view, my vantage, whatever it is, that is going to ease the tension and they're not going to get defensive. So instead of saying, I disagree, Say, I see things differently, and then share your opinion. They're not going to get defensive because now they're like, oh, what do you see? Or if you go, you know what, I take another approach, it's signaling I go about it a different way. I'm not arguing exactly what you're saying. I'm just saying I take another approach. I have a different perspective. I have another view on that. That kind of language and perspective does not get people defensive because it makes them curious of going, huh, well, I don't I'm not seeing it from your viewpoint. What do you see? I mean, we get very curious when somebody's seeing something that we're not. Um, so it's like, oh, well, can you move over and share the binoculars? I want to see what you— what you're seeing. And so using words of perspective are a really easy way of making someone not feel defensive. Another is to use phrases that also don't get people defensive. So one is, I agree, but not on a micro level. Go to a macro level. So I'm not saying you have to agree with what they actually say. You can go, I agree, that's worth talking about. I agree, that's an important subject. I agree, that's— somebody should do something about that. Whenever you're saying that kind of stuff at a very high level, they're going to— they all of a sudden feel acknowledged. They don't feel like they have to argue with you. They don't feel like they have to build up their defenses. Or you could say, that's helpful. That's helpful to know. People love to feel helpful. Um, or what you've learned. After listening, Jim, I've, I've learned that family is really important to you. All of a sudden, you don't feel like you have to argue with me anymore. It's a wonderful way of pulling it down. Or you tell someone that they're free to disagree with you. It's, it's very freeing in that way. So let's say I'm about to say something that I know you're not going to like. If I say Jim, you, you don't have to agree with me, and I'm gonna say something, or you're free to disagree with me, and then tell you something. Now you're actually much more interested in what I'm saying rather than feeling like you have to disagree. So those are some quick little things that come to mind on how to, how to feel some, make someone feel a little bit more acknowledged and bring down defenses.

So building on it, like, on agree, disagree phrases, viewpoints, Jefferson, then what would What would your quick take be or your view on the phrase, let's agree to disagree? Is it resolution? Is it resignation? Or is it something completely differently, you know, entirely?

I am personally not a fan of it. I understand the fact that there could be no resolution. There's no problem with that by itself. Um, I don't find that the phrase really does anything. It doesn't leave anybody feeling good. Doesn't— it feels like I cut it off short. If I go, you know what, you're not agreeing with me, so just let's— I'm going to cut it. Let's agree to disagree. Which is one— it's another way of saying, I don't want to listen to you anymore. That's what you're really— that's what you're really saying is, I've had enough. That's what you're— that's what you're really saying. Instead of going, okay, noted. Thank you. Or that's good to know. Interesting. All right, well, I'll remember that. Anything that is just neutral, flat statements, that's what I'd much rather you use. Statements that don't necessarily push it further, don't encourage dialogue, but at the same time feel like you acknowledge them. Because if I just say, you have a different— let's say you and I are talking, you have a different viewpoint than me, and I go, ah, let's agree to disagree. Do you feel like I really acknowledge you or value anything that you just said? No. But if I go, huh, okay, well, I agree. That's a point. Like, that right there is a wonderful way to at least say, I acknowledge what you've said. Agree to disagree doesn't have that quality to it.

And what role does confidence have in the next conversation? Like, where if a listener has a challenge asserting themselves, like, They can't say the word no as a complete sentence, right? Or they apologize, you know, so much. They, when people maybe they, people stand their ground without feeling like we're disappointing people. And so where does confidence play a role in this model? And what would you suggest to somebody who wants to have more confidence in their next conversation?

Confidence has everything to do with feeling like you're grounded, feeling like you're centered, you're balanced. There might be somebody right now who's listening and goes, you know, I've never really felt like I was very confident in a situation. Or they might be thinking of something they have coming up and they're going, hey, I'm working up the confidence to say this. If that's you, let me tell you, that's the wrong way to think about it. Confidence is not what you do before. Confidence is the outcome. Confidence is what you get when you do and say assertive things. Think of it as, let's say if I said right now to you, Jim, I said, Jim, I need, I need you to be mad at me. Be, be organically upset at me. You would have a kind of a hard time doing it. You'd be like, "Well, I don't. There's nothing that's precipitated this." But if I kicked you in your shin, you'd probably have no problem being mad at me. Then you can feel it. Confidence is the same way. Confidence is not something you conjure out of thin air. You go, "Okay, I am now fully 100% confident to the max, and I'm gonna say what I want to say." Your words do it for you. So when you use a sort of words, you feel more confident. Then as a result, you feel more confident using more assertive words. So let's break it down into somebody who feels like they over-apologize. When you say I'm sorry in every single sentence, like, I'm, uh, the email is a perfect example. So sorry I'm just now getting back to you. So sorry I just now saw this. But you haven't done anything wrong. Most likely you were— you're, you're prioritizing your life. What they needed Was not a priority, right? Or because you didn't see it because you were doing other things. That's not a mistake. That's not an error. So instead of making yourself feel like an inconvenience, I want you to use words of gratitude. So instead of so sorry, I'm just now seeing this, or I'm sorry I'm late, thank you for your patience. Just use words of gratitude. Thank you for your patience. You know what the other person's going to feel like? I am so patient. You're right. I am a patient person. Or you say, thank you for the time to reply. Thank you for the time to allow me to think about this. And then what you say, they're going to feel is so intentional because of the time you took to think about it instead of feeling like you're hesitant. Or people who undervalue their words, people who say like, I'm sorry to bother you. I had somebody on the team not too long ago and she would always begin with, Okay, so you can totally let me know if you hate this, but then she would talk. And you know what my first thought was listening to her was, I think I kind of hate this. Like, I think I maybe hate this simply because what she started with, my, my mind naturally said, nah, I don't think I like this. So when you find that you eliminate those kind of things, like, this might be a dumb question, or hate to bother you, use words that build. I'm all about using words that Push progress into communication. So instead of sorry to bother you, it's hey, I'd like to add on to what you said a minute ago, or I like to continue with this. I like to bounce off of that. I like to begin a conversation about X. You see how I'm I'm pushing the train forward rather than oh, so sorry to bother you, or go hey, this is probably a dumb question. And what they do, they go there's no such thing as a dumb question. You know, oh oh there's. There's not? Oh, okay. Let me ask my dumb question. So find ways of words that push, and it's going to go a whole lot better in the conversation. Another I find that seems to be a manner of debate— you'll like this, Jim— is asking, does that make sense? After you say something. We might say something, go, does that make sense? I know why they use it.

Mm-hmm.

You use it because it's— you want to make sure that what you're saying makes logical sense. You know, your words together make sense. They can compute it. But to the other person, they really hear one of two things. One, they hear you don't really think they're smart enough to get it, so you want to make sure that they can understand it. Like, does that make sense to your small brain? Or You're not really sure what you're talking about. Does that make sense? So it is better to remove that question and instead say, what are your thoughts? Or do you have any questions? Or what do you think? Anything that is giving, asking for feedback, because really we use it as a filler. It's a crutch, so to speak. And there's lots, but that kind of stuff is, I love talking about that kind of thing. That's where, that's where you and I get to nerd out, man.

I know a lot of people are going to go and get their copy of The Next Conversation. I'm curious if our, if a listener could remember one idea or one sentence from The Next Conversation, what would the line be that you hope lives rent-free in our minds forever?

Oh, that's, that's an important one. I don't think I've ever been asked that question. I'm going to give it in, in 2 parts. It'll be quick. One is, I see things differently. It's invaluable. I see things differently. People do not take it defensively, and it is very easy to use in whether you're in the living room or the boardroom, and whether it's life, work, family. I see things differently is a very easy tool. To implement. Second of all, what I want them to understand is that their words have a ripple effect, meaning how you talk to your children will affect how they talk to their children. How you talk to your coworkers is ultimately the voice of your brand. So how you communicate lasts longer than you'll ever realize and will touch and affect people you'll never meet. So the words that you use today are words that can change your life. Conflict can be used for good. How you got to your job now is probably because you left and had a conflict with a job earlier. How you found the spouse that you have, you had to have some conflict and leave something else. Conflict used for good is a wonderful way to continue to evolve. And so realize that your difficult conversations with the people that you love is the only way to build deep relationships. So the deeper your tolerance for difficult conversations, the better relationships and conversations you're going to have.

Yeah, it's kind of like a spin on this idea that the treasure you seek is hidden, you know, in the conversations you're not having.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing I would say is if there's this one mindset I want anybody listening to have. When you go into your next conversation, have something to learn, not something to prove.

Hmm.

It's a wonderful mindset that says, instead of saying, excuse me, who do you think you're talking to? Which is something to prove. Something to learn says, I wonder why they're saying that. I wonder what's going on. I wonder what's happening that I can't see. Those little things, when you start thinking and realizing that there's a person behind the moment, not thinking of just responding to the moment, think about how your words are going to sound and impact a week from now, a year from now. Like that kind of stuff, that's, it's a game changer. That's the way to change your life.

Before we wrap, um, the question I like to ask, you know, all our guests is, uh, our podcast at its core is about Really the love of learning, right? I'm curious, is there one thing that you're currently learning about or studying outside of this conversation that has you particularly excited?

Yeah. I mean, as a, I'm a parent, my wife and I have 2 kids, 7-year-old and a 5-year-old. So right now my wife and I are really Doing some meaningful work around better ways to be parents, to say, okay, we want to— of course we don't want to repeat the mistakes of our parents, just like they didn't want to repeat the mistakes of theirs. How can we build better communicators from the get-go? How can we foster an environment in our home to teach them how to communicate, how to handle conflict, how to handle disagreements now? Rather than just telling them in college, that's not the way to do it. So it's formulating and fostering a safe space here. That's something we're very intentional about and enjoy focusing on.

Well, Jefferson, I really appreciate your time and your talent. I appreciate having you on the show sharing with our community. Where can people go deeper with your work or stay connected with you?

Well, they can go to any of my social medias. Instagram is probably my favorite, it's the one I'm most active on. Go to jeffersonfisher.com for all of my platforms. I do have a school of communication, so it's a membership where I get to help people practice and I coach 'em. And the book, the book is wherever you can, wherever you like to find books, where, yeah, I have a link for it in my website. But yeah, it's been a whole lot of fun.

Yeah.

And getting to, to learn that, or really getting to learn this whole process of coming into my life as a trial attorney and being the communication teacher has been a wonderful blessing in my life. And to be able to share my time here with your Kwik community is just the cherry on top. So I'm— I am honored with my time with everybody. And, um, yeah, I encourage you to keep using your words.

Awesome. Kwik Brains, what a powerful conversation about conversations. If you've ever walked away from an argument thinking, you know, I wish I had said it better, or you stayed silent when you wanted to speak with, with strength and confidence and empathy, I think that this episode is your permission slip to do just that, you know. And so I want to thank Jefferson for reminding us that every tough talk isn't the final word, right? It's the first step towards the next conversation. That real influence doesn't necessarily come from volume. It comes from clarity, calm, and a level of connection. So I want to challenge everyone to do something right now because I feel like sometimes we learn something and if we don't do something with it, it just kind of stays there. Maybe this week, If you ever feel triggered or tempted to react or maybe shut down, to be able to pause, to be able to breathe, to be able to remember this episode and ask yourself, you know, what would that future me say right now? And, you know, I feel like that's one of the ways we can move from reaction to, in a way, reputation. If you found today's episode valuable, I would challenge you also to take a screenshot of wherever you're consuming this and tag Jefferson, tag me, and share your big aha. Because remember, when you teach something, you get to learn it twice. So your fans, your followers, your family, your friends get to benefit. You can certainly put a link to this. If you want to hear the extended version, join our YouTube where we put the extended beyond 20 minutes of the audio. This one was particularly long and there's so much, so many gems in it. And So, uh, you can join our 1.8 million subscribers there. And just remember, you can't always control that first conversation, but you could always lead the next one. So until next time, be limitless. Limitless.