How Awe Awakens & Heals the Brain | Dacher Keltner & Jim Kwik

Whatever brings me awe— spiritual practices, meditation, nature, service, et cetera— actually is really good for life expectancy and beating the 21st century diseases. It's good news for the body.

What if awe holds the secret to hijacking your brain's circuitry? Today we are joined by Dacher Keltner. Professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley.

He's the founder and faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center.

Keltner has devoted his career to studying the nature of human goodness and happiness, conducting groundbreaking research on compassion, Awe, laughter, and love.

When I look at the crises right now, you know, that young people are facing and the issues with life expectancy in the United States, I feel like we need more awe.

What are some of the things they could do to cultivate more awe in their day?

Awe helps us transform ourselves, as Jane Goodall said, simply to be amazed at things outside of yourself.

He translates spiritual awe into science and offers profound insights for unleashing everyday awe using music, nature, and our senses.

He has over 200 scientific publications He's written 6 books, including Born to Be Good, The Compassionate Instinct, and The Power Paradox.

And then the cytokine system, which is this cellular system distributed through the body that releases certain proteins that attack pathogens, viruses, and bacteria in your body.

Do you schedule this time?

When I lost my brother, who was my soulmate in many ways, younger brother, I lost all and I started scheduling it.

Even when you're talking about mental health and just the epidemic of loneliness, you know, the mental health challenges, that when you feel like you're part of something greater than yourself.

When I think about Gandhi or the beauty of redwood trees and their age here in Berkeley, I feel awe. The self-focused regions of the brain are quieted. The threat-related regions of the brain are quieted. I get elevated vagus nerve activation that makes me feel warm in the chest, this big bundle of nerves involved in a lot of processes. I tear up, another parasympathetic response of your nervous system. So your body really opens to the world, which is fascinating.

That's so, so remarkable. I got goosebumps. I call them truth bumps. Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I am your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Today we are joined by Dacher Keltner. Dacher is a renowned expert in the science of human emotion and is now lifting the veil on perhaps our most misunderstood feeling, awe. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. He is the author of a very aptly named book called Awe: The Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life. So we're gonna be talking about the science of awe and how it helps us discover like aspects of ourselves and heal our bodies, our minds, and so much more. So welcome to the show.

Jim, it's great to be with you. Thanks for that wonderful introduction. And I wanna be a brain coach. What a great career.

Yes, this is not something that I planned on when I was a child, but 30, 30, 32 years now. When I think about the word awe in my, my personal life, and I'm sure people could relate to this as they're listening, you know, I think of things like nature. I think of music. I think of maybe some spiritual experiences. I think of demonstrations of, of courage, of kindness, you know, examples of people going beyond their limitations. Why don't we start with What's your definition of awe?

Your conception is, in fact, richer than I think what we thought when we started this science. I define awe as a scientist of emotion, as an emotion that we feel when we encounter vast mysteries that we don't understand. You know, Einstein said this is the fundamental emotion, the feelings that we have around mystery that animate our search for answers and discovery and transformation. And then, you know, you can start to think about awe subjectively in terms of how it unfolds and what we're aware of. And like you said in the introduction, we become less aware of ourselves. We become more aware of the big systems around us. We become wonder-filled and curious, and then we really want to do good for the world. So it's an important emotion for our times.

A few years ago, I was speaking at the United Nations, and I was the only non- astronaut. It was the 50th anniversary of the moon landing. So it was in July in 2019. And it was interesting when we were in the green room, and I got a chance to meet the other panelists and speakers. They talked about this sense, it was almost a spiritual, emotional phenomenon when they left Earth's atmosphere and could see our planet and this sense of oneness. You know, there's no borders or boundaries. They called it the overview effect. I'm very curious when we're talking about the science of awe, what does the science of awe, how does it help us discover ourselves and why is it important for people to learn about this, you know, and read your book now?

Yeah, oh, thank you for asking that. And, you know, what we do scientifically is we try to take these really extraordinary experiences, the overview effect, near-death experiences, experiences doing, you know, rock climbing and surfing and so forth, encounters with big data, and then bring them into the lab with measurement and theory. And so why is it important right now? I'll just give you a few findings that are replicated. You know, awe gives us a sense of more time, you know, just more creative time in our lives. Awe expands our sense of wonder and meaning and enhances the rigor of our thought. It makes you a better scientist. It makes you more creative. For the body, awe reduces the daily stresses of life, puts them into perspective. Just a little moment of awe, just like those astronauts, you almost channel the overview effect and you're like, you know, this parking ticket, you know, that sneer from somebody out in the streets doesn't matter. And awe is really good for your body. It elevates vagal tone, the activation of the vagus nerve, and it reduces inflammation, that part of your immune system that heats up the body to kill pathogens. But when chronically activated, it's really hard on your body. And awe, as Emerson said, there's nothing that nature or awe can't repair. And it looks like it repairs the body. So When I look at the crises right now, you know, that young people are facing and the, you know, the issues with, you know, life expectancy in the United States, I feel like we need more awe.

Yeah, I think one of the things I want to talk about is how to get more awe into our life. But so we've delved into some of the kind of processes that awe triggers in our nervous system, whereas science, psychoneuroimmunology, that could help us to Mitigate the kind of the fear and the stress response.

Yeah, exactly.

So we're talking about neuro, like physiological aspects. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the default network? You know, our ego, how does this all connect with things like, I don't know, like our hormones, our vagus nerve you mentioned? And maybe you could even define what the default mode network is for our listeners, for those who aren't familiar with the term.

Yeah, you know, this was one of the extraordinary findings to emerge in the science of awe. You know, when people feel awe, you know, you're at a meditation retreat and you're just like, wow, I'm feeling really just one with the universe. Or you hear some music and you start crying and you're like, God, there's so much meaning in culture and art. Or like you said very nicely, Jim, like you encounter someone's kindness and you're just swept off your feet. One thing people say with words is, I don't know, I felt like I was vanishing or the ego died or I dissolved. And that's language, right? And it's full of metaphor. But lo and behold, the neuroscience of awe has really lent credence to that. And in studies in Japan and Holland and the United States and Canada and elsewhere, they put people into a scanner and you are led to feel awe. You know, you think about somebody who inspires you. You watch BBC Earth. You study, you look at space, you know, the overview effect. And this chunk of cortex called the default mode network tends to be deactivated, right? And it's parts of your prefrontal cortex in the front and then the posterior cingulate cortex to the side of your brain. And there's a science led by Reichl and others that Those regions of your cortex are really involved in self-representation, thinking about the self, thinking about my past, having memories about me, thinking about my goals and tasks that I'm trying to succeed at. That's all the self that is, that uses up those chunks of the cortex. And lo and behold, awe quiets that down, right? And it frees you up to think about bigger things. One other finding from Japan is really worth noting that gets to your second part of your question about what then happens in your body. They're finding in Japan and elsewhere now, in Switzerland too, that awe deactivates the amygdala, which is that old region in the middle of your brain that detects threat, right? And when the amygdala is activated, you are in the fight or flight mode. You have elevated blood pressure, cortisol release, that hormone that's associated with stress. So awe quiets that system down too. And so what that tells us, and the neuroscience is fascinating, when I, you know, when I think about Gandhi or, you know, the beauty of redwood trees and their age here in Berkeley, I feel awe. The self-focused regions of the brain are quieted. The threat-related regions of the brain are quieted. I get elevated vagus nerve activation that makes me Feel warm in the chest, this big bundle of nerves involved in a lot of processes. I tear up, another parasympathetic response of your nervous system. So your body really opens to the world, which is fascinating.

In my work and in our podcast and in Limitless, we talk about the parasympathetic system. And we also talk about states like flow, where markers would be things like you lose your sense of self, you lose sense of time. Things almost become a little bit effortless. Is there any kind of overlap with awe and the parasympathetic system or flow states? Do you know?

You're way ahead of the science, but you're exactly where it's going, Jim, which is that conceptually awe is closely related to flow. Csikszentmihalyi is really like artistic intellectual creativity. Flow is really about, I feel awestruck by how I can handle these challenges and my how I'm accomplishing things. And then awe is really that feeling, but connecting you to big things in the world. And I think the way to synthesize what we've learned about the physiology of awe is parasympathetic autonomic activation. Now, you're the first person to use that phrase. And I'm grateful because when you feel— because it's fundamental, which is the fight or flight mode of your body is sympathetic autonomic nervous system activation. rise in blood pressure, rise in heart rate, vasoconstriction in the veins, etc. The opposite is parasympathetic, and awe activates that elevated vagus nerve activation. The tears in your eyes when you feel awe, right? A lot of people cry when they listen to beautiful music. That's parasympathetically mediated, which is the lacrimal gland releasing these chemicals. And then, you know, awe is also associated with the release of oxytocin, this neuropeptide that helps you connect and be open to others, that is related to the parasympathetic system. So awe really seems to be, in the broadest sense, tracking parasympathetic activation, which is about, I'm interested in you, I'm open, I don't feel threatened. I feel curious about the world. I'm limitless in where the mind can go. And it's amazing to me that it takes place at the level of neurophysiology too.

That's so remarkable. I got goosebumps when you were— I call them truth bumps. Your research in awe, it talks about, you mentioned the correlation between awe and reducing inflammation. I think you also talked about in there the cytokine response. What's going on there?

You know, this one was game-changing for us. And thank you for zeroing in on the physiology, which we take a lot of care to study. You know, one of the systems of the body that you can study, it's hard, is the immune system. And it's all these glands that are distributed throughout your body and particular kinds of cells that get activated during cancer. And then the cytokine system, which is this cellular system distributed through the body that releases certain proteins that attack pathogens, viruses, and bacteria in your body. And when you have an elevated inflammation response, it's like what you feel like when you have the flu. You're sluggish and you're heated, overheated, and kind of achy and And regrettably, that bodily profile accompanies depression and shame and rejection and the like, some science shows. And no one had really tracked what positive states reduce the inflammation response. And you already know why that's important, which is that now, as we are advancing into 21st century diseases, as Robert Sapolsky says, diseases like loneliness, which our Surgeon General is interested in, and depression. Those conditions elevate your inflammation, and elevated inflammation is associated with heart issues, autoimmune disease, diabetes, real troubles, right?

Yeah.

And lo and behold, our lab, Jenny Steller, found when I feel a lot of awe, it has lower inflammation processes. In Japan and South Korea, where they're really ahead of us in this work, Inflammation is reduced by getting out in nature, right? And finding awe there. And so that tells us so important. This is why the Surgeon General is interested in our findings. Like, wow, whatever brings me awe, spiritual practices, meditation, nature, service, et cetera, actually is really good for life expectancy, right? And beating the 21st century diseases. So it's good news for the body. Yeah.

Nature is our family's go-to to cultivate that. We also have a float tank, like a sensory deprivation tank.

Do you really?

In our home. And it's one of the practices just the past 10 years. It just, besides helping me sleep with the magnesium, it just, you lose, because you're in this sensory deprivation tank, we can't see anything, can't hear anything. The water temperature, it's salt water. So you float, it's close to modeling body temperature. So it feels like when I come out of it, I just, my senses are very enriched and I feel so creative. I feel like my best thoughts come afterwards or if I'm gonna do something artistic or creative.

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting new science. You know, I did some flotation tanks recently. They're incredible, right? And you have all this ideation. And I think one of the findings that relates to awe is when you really quiet down the self and the filters and biases of the self, you free up perception, right? And you free up your mind. And there are studies showing like flotation tanks, probably in part through the awe that you feel, everything seems more vivid and detailed, right? And rich with deeper truths. So We need more of these processes that get us to all.

We have a group in our community called Kwik Success, and it's our monthly coaching. And we have also a book club where we read a book a month together and we bring on the author. And they had specific questions. They were excited that we'd be having this conversation. One of them from our Kwik Success members, and for our listeners, you go to kwiksuccess.com to find out more information on how to enroll and join us in this amazing community. was how can I, going back to what my practices are, whether it's walks in nature.

Yeah.

I had the experience of seeing the Northern Lights, which is on the COVID of your book, which is astonishing. Flow tank. One of them was how can I better cultivate awe in my daily life, right? We see all the benefits from lower inflammation, the default mode network, getting that parasympathetic, more wonder, more creativity, lower blood pressure, You know, all the stress markers. But so what would your suggestions be to our listeners so that now they're sold, they want more awe in their life. Maybe this is not something they have to hope for, but this is something they could work towards. What are some of the things they could do to cultivate more awe in their day? Are you a high achiever constantly seeking that next level of success? Welcome to the Kwik Success Program. It's a deep dive in support system to master your life and scale to new heights in personal and professional achievement. Included is our exclusive monthly book club where we process transformative ideas from amazing books to level up your learning and your life. We also bring the author to the club to answer your burning questions. You can also participate in monthly live coaching calls with me where your questions meet my decades of experience. Simply go to kwiksuccess.com. That's kwiksuccess.com and choose the plan that works best for you.

Yeah, you know, I just got goosebumps that you're asking that question. It's so important, right? Goosebumps connect us to bigger questions that unite us and themes. Yeah, once we worked out that science and other labs around the world, people got really interested just like in the loving kindness space and the mindfulness space and the gratitude space. How do we cultivate this, right? And so we're starting to test stuff. We have an awe walk where you just add awe to your walk no matter where you are. You just look for wonderful things. And it really, it helped older people reduce pain significantly. I love this one is you, you just take a few minutes and you think about somebody who inspired you through their moral beauty, their kindness or courage, right? And you just pause and reflect, and suddenly you're thinking about your grandmother or teacher or Gandhi. And that has been shown in very recent work to help people with their success in academics and the like. There are nature walks that you can do, which are powerful. There are new techniques that we're really starting to develop at Carnegie Hall where you, you know, we all listen to music. Why not take a piece of music that really means a lot to you That may give you goosebumps and just listen to it and think about what it's telling you. And then, you know, more broadly, we just piloted, tested, and I'll end here, a simple 1-minute exercise where we did this with medical doctors and nurses during the pandemic and lockdown. 1 minute, you put away your devices, you sit in a quiet place, you get into some deep breathing. And then you think about something that is mysterious or wonder-filled. And that helped doctors with depression and anxiety. And I'll add just one final one. On our podcast, we did one on the cycle of life meditation.

Mm-hmm.

Thinking about life can make you feel awe, like, wow, we're all born and we all have adolescence for the most part. And then we all die. And there are Bhutanese Buddhist approaches to that that you can develop little practices for. So It actually is a rich place to really train the mind for quick success and success more generally.

Do you schedule this time? Like, I mean, a lot of our day, we're spent behind screens, we're sitting all day. Is it something where you're very deliberate and intentional, where you're putting it, you're scheduling time to experience awe, or is that maybe a possible recommendation? Or is it something that you just kind of just have, you're mindful of throughout the day, looking for opportunities or? Maybe a mixture of both.

Well, you know, one of the reasons, Jim, I wrote the book is, you know, when I lost my brother, who was my soulmate in many ways, younger brother, I lost awe and I scheduled, I started scheduling it, you know, and almost every time I walk somewhere, I find a little bit of awe and it just takes pausing and deepening the breath and Looking for small patterns, large patterns. Look at the sky, you find awe. I make sure once a week I listen to a piece of music that really means something to me. You know, the Beatles, Sgt. Pepper's, you know.

Yeah.

I heard it when I was 8 and it blew my mind. So I do that, you know. When thinking about sacred texts, right? What are the texts that really like, what are the quotes that mean a lot to you? I started scheduling it as I was grieving the loss of my brother. And now to this day, I make sure I'm finding 10 minutes of awe a day, you know, just a week, I should say, you know, just reflecting on moral beauty, looking to nature, listening to music, et cetera. And it's easy to find, you know, we find in our research, just intuitively people feel about 2 to 3 times a week and you can cultivate it.

So you talked about why you wrote the book, Awe. Why, I guess, what are you hoping people get out of it after they— because we have our community, they love to read.

Yeah.

And they're avid learners. If there was a message out of the book, and it's hard to distill it into one, but is there something that you want people to take away when they're done looking back on on your work?

I would say the word that, you know, really has, you know, in releasing the book and then getting engaged with doctors and museum directors at the national parks, to me, the word is transformation. If you look at the big patterns of data, I've been around young people for 34 years as a professor, right? I teach hundreds of young people a year. And they've become too self-focused and too run down by the nagging voice of the self. They need to open their minds. They need, we need transformation. We need cultural transformation to get beyond, you know, the climate crises. And awe does that, you know, awe helps us transform ourselves, as Jane Goodall said, to be simply to be amazed at things outside of yourself. That's all it is. You know, if you're in New York City, the next, when you feel awe and you go for a walk through the city, like, God, these buildings are incredible, right? Who designed them? And we need to transform certain parts of our social organization. We need to transform energy use, right? So awe gets us there. And I hope people reading it will feel like, whoa, you know, I never realized this is what allows me to do my best work, and now I can implement it. I was talking to 2 medical doctors yesterday who are like, medicine is all about awe, but we've lost it. You know, we've lost it in the paperwork of the practice. Let's get back to it, right? Let's teach our residents how to find awe. And they're committed to that. And I hope that's typical of where this book could take people, this transformation.

You know, one of the things I got out of it was reinforcing to our listeners, and they know, you know, my perspective on this, but we don't have awe. Sometimes it's transformation, and it's also about transcending, you know, ending this trance that this mass hypnosis that things are ordinary, and you could find the extraordinary in, you know, just like the poetry talks about in a grain of sand or in a blade of grass. And it's a different mindset shift, but, you know, just like to our listeners where we teach you don't have focus, you do it. You don't have a memory. There's a process for memorizing. You don't have creativity. There's a process for being creative. It's not something you have to just kind of wish and hope for that just shows up. But you could be active in that process and all the benefits. Even when you're talking about mental health and just the epidemic of loneliness, right? Yeah. You know, the mental health challenges. But when you feel like you're part of something greater than yourself, and you feel you belong, or you feel connected. And also this mystery where you wake up every day just anticipating, being curious, and filled with wonder like a child. And just our 1-year-old is just always looking and just observing. And I always thought that with a child, I would be teaching them all these things. And certainly, I'm You know, we're doing, you know, our work in that, in brain optimization and learning. But also, I find that if anything, you know, this child is teaching me so much just watching his behavior. And I feel like it's almost a natural state, you know, that we could reset to.

If I were able to generate findings, I would feel I could retire on the observations you just offered because you're pointing to fundamental notions about awe and where the research is going. Awe is a basic natural state. You know, Einstein really felt that, like, this is a lens, like the Zen mind, beginner's mind. Everything is filled with wonder. You just gotta open your eyes and awe does, it is a natural state we can get to pretty easily if we just cultivate and make it a practice. And I think we're heading in that direction. It is great for loneliness, even feeling awe by yourself in the woods, you feel like you have a stronger community, right? And that's, that tells you how powerful it is. And then the future is what you're saying, which is parenting and children. And, you know, we're doing fine science showing kids feel awe really early in life. And maybe their lives are filled with awe. You know, one of my favorite examples is the babies in tunnel YouTube videos where— Little babies in a car seat when they go into a tunnel. They think existence stops. And when they come out of the tunnel, they're like, whoa, you know? And that tells us this is a very early emotion. And then I love your observation, Jim. And I think this is where our culture will go, which is awe-focused parenting. Like, go shoot. All you have to do to parent well is go find awe together, you know? And suddenly you'll be listening to music and lying in a field in a park and— watching spring flowers and so on. So I hope we go in that direction. Wonderful notion.

And then to be a seeker and a searcher, if you will, you know, it's like this idea that, you know, either nothing is a miracle or everything is a miracle, you know, having that sense. So I feel like it's also a mindset that's very purpose-driven. And I love how this new science is also validating a lot of ancient wisdom, you know, and ancient experiences and texts. And, uh, so yeah, what I want to—

Yeah, no, I was lucky, you know, be a seeker. You use the word mystery. Thank you. The word mystery just kept coming back to me, you know, in writing about this. And, and the, the great wisdoms of all cultures center on that. You know, Einstein, mystery is the fundamental emotion, mystery in Lao Tzu and Taoism. It's a mystery what the spirit of the world is, be it biological or spiritual, but we know we feel it and we know we want to follow it. And so the great traditions, which I tried to integrate in this book in many different ways, have been orienting us to awe. And now we have a science that tells us it's good for us, which we kind of knew anyway. But And it's part of it. I think it's a helpful conversation.

Yeah. So many of our listeners want to, you know, we talk about longevity a lot and brain longevity, but they want to add years to their life, but also life to their years. And so I highly recommend everybody gets their copy of Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life. Dacher, how do people get the book? How do they stay in touch with you?

They can get the book through their local bookstore or Amazon or My website, dackerkeltner.com, and then email me. I respond to, in the spirit of one of those great seekers of awe, Walt Whitman, I talk to everybody and respond to every communication like Abraham Lincoln did. And, you know, and I love hearing from people because we lab scientists get a lot of great ideas from conversation. You know, you just oriented me, Jim, to like, wow, parenting for awe. That could be a big one, right? So thank you.

Oh, we can't wait to read that work. Well, I want to thank you for the research that you do on this topic and also getting it out to the world. Dr. Kellner, thank you for being on our show. And everyone, go get your copy of Awe in your local independent bookstores or online, you know, visit the site. As always, we'll put links to that and more at jimkwik.com/podcast. And again, Dhakkar, thank you so much for being on our podcast.

Thank you for a terrific conversation, Jim. Really appreciate it.

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