How Chasing Uncertainty Fuels Continuous Learning | Alex Hutchinson

What drives us to chase the unknown? Why do we seek challenges, new experiences, the unfamiliar?

Everyone who ends up pushing their limits in these ways and going into the unknown, they have a tolerance for uncertainty and a tolerance for discomfort and a tolerance for the possibility of failure.

Today we'll uncover the science behind exploration, uncertainty, and how stepping into the unknown can actually accelerate your growth.

You will minimize your accumulated regret if you're optimistic and go for the best realistic scenario.

We could desire certainty, but if we have too much of it, we just get bored.

When we're in the kind of fight-or-flight frame of mind, our focus tends to narrow, and then we become anxious and we'll make the safest decision.

How can our listeners embrace continuous learning and have that fun, have that joy, have that excitement?

Learning something new is different than doing something slightly better that you've already done. And you have to take a deliberate step.

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I'm your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Today, we'll learn how to accelerate your learning in your life through actively engaging in exploration, seeking out challenges and uncertainty. In addition to understanding what exploring is and what drives us to explore as humans, we also will be discussing how uncertainty drives us forward And we'll take a look at the processes happening in our nervous system, in our brain, when we challenge ourselves in new ways and the role predictive processing has in our life. Our guest today, and I'm a fan of his work, is Alex Hutchinson, the New York Times bestselling author of this book that I just pulled off. If you're watching this, the extended version on YouTube, Endure. This was one of my favorite reads, and I think it was in 2018. He's a longtime columnist of Outside Magazine and a National Magazine Award-winning journalist. He's a long-distance runner for the Canadian national team, a former long-distance runner, and has a very impressive academic background holding a master's in journalism, a PhD in physics. His latest book is the topic of discussion today. It's called The Explorer's Gene, and it explores the science behind why we're wired to seek new challenges and unexplored territories. Welcome to the show, Alex.

Thanks so much for having me, Jim.

I was talking to you before we started recording. I was a big fan of Endure. We'll put the link to Endure and your new book, you know, as well as your social media, everything in our podcast notes. I would encourage people to go to jimkwik.com/notes where we put the summary there also as well. But you definitely want to listen to this brand new conversation. So in the latest neuroscience, it suggests that exploration in any form, whether it's trying a new restaurant, uh, changing careers, deciding to run a marathon, is really an essential ingredient in human life. So I'd love to start with what, what does exploration mean to you and what made you want to explore the subject of explore or exploration?

There's kind of a meta element to this. So if, yeah, if you, if you do the word association test and say explorer, I would probably say like, you know, Christopher Columbus or something like that. There's this sort of traditional view of exploration as sailing across the ocean. Um, and, and I, I find that stuff interesting. Like I, ever since I was a kid, I've liked the idea of heading out into the woods and pretending that I'm discovering something. But really what got me interested is the broader idea of exploring new things in daily life and in careers. And, and so for me, it was my last book, Endure, uh, which was out in 2018. It did well. And so I was facing this dilemma of like, do I write Endure 2, Revenge of the, you know, the Science of Endurance? Or do I do something completely different? And the smart thing to do would have been Endure 2, but I had— I recognized that I was just— I didn't— it didn't seem fun to me. I was pulled to do something different, and it wasn't even anything specific. It wasn't like I really want to do this other thing. It was just like I want to do something different and new. And that got me thinking about exploring and the draw of new things, whether it's new foods, new places, new ideas. And so I really wanted to dig into that broader concept of what enduring is, or what exploring rather is.

As human beings, what drives us to explore? You know, what do we seek to gain from it?

You can answer that on a couple different levels. Like, as a species, we've been rewarded for exploring by discovering new territory, new ways of catching food, new ways of thriving. And so we've evolved in a way such that Um, people who explored and discovered new things passed on their genes and we still carry that legacy. You can even go a little, a level deeper and say that to be alive, to be an organism that is, uh, you know, existing in the world, you have to have a drive for novelty. Uh, you mentioned predictive, predictive processing at the top, this idea of how brains are wired. You want to be discovering new things, uh, because that's how you ensure that, you know, a monster doesn't jump out from behind the next corner. You need to be learning about the world. And so. We're wired in a very fundamental way to pursue the things we know least about in some ways.

I'm a Trekkie amongst other things, and this must come up in interviews, but, you know, once in the future, once people, everybody has resources, Captain Picard or Captain Kirk or a number of captains, they go out on the Enterprise to seek exploration. And we do an annual brain performance conference where we have various individuals like Steven Kotler talk about flow, Dr. Amen talk about brain health. We had a friend of mine, Rod Roddenberry, who is Gene Roddenberry's son, talk about the vision of Star Trek and exploration. I'm curious, you discussed the concept of there's this genetic advantage in extreme environments. Maybe you could elaborate on how these genetic factors play a role in everyday challenges and stress resilience.

The title of my book is The Explorer's Gene, which is a little bit tongue in cheek, but also there is, there is some very interesting research on the kind of genetic underpinnings of this desire to expand, even like you said, even when we have resources where we are, even if we're reasonably comfortable. And this is, this is not new. This is not just, we're going to go to Mars even though we have Earth. It's also, you know, we're doing fine in Africa and the Near East, but we're still going to expand and go to Easter Island and go to the Antarctic and go to Australia. So that's been a hallmark of the human species of trying to explore. And if, and you can see the, the echoes of that in the genes we have that respond to novelty and the farther a population moved away from our origins, you know, in the southern tip of South America, people there have a higher percentage of this explorer's gene variant that makes It gives you a bigger shot of dopamine basically in response to new or unfamiliar things. And so that helps you. It maybe makes you interested in exploring the unknown, but it also helps you cope with times of change. It helps you deal with the stress of, you know, because it is going into the unknown can be stressful. And so being able to deal, it's not just wanting to go there. It's being able to, to, to thrive once you're in a situation of uncertainty.

You know, in our accelerated learning courses, you know, we teach advanced memory improvement. focus strategies, speed reading and such. We talk about neuroplasticity, and the keys there are novelty and nutrition. Just like pushing your body and growing your body, you need novelty. You have to give it stimulus and then feed it proper nourishment. In your books, and I'm overlapping a little bit with Endure because I'm a big fan of that book, you've explored stories of remarkable individuals who have pushed the boundaries of human endurance. Right. Uh, from all these stories, did you see a, a common thread or a mental trait maybe that our listeners could cultivate to enhance their own performance in whatever role or responsibilities that they, that they have?

Yeah, I mean, so first I would say I think people come from a lot of different perspectives. There's a lot of different reasons to push yourself, a lot of different roads people travel to get there. So I don't think there's just one one way to get there. But I think everyone who ends up pushing their limits in these ways and going into the unknown, uh, they have a tolerance for uncertainty and a tolerance for discomfort and a tolerance for the possibility of failure.

Hmm.

So they're willing to keep going even when things get uncomfortable and even when they're worried that it might not. And that, that's, that's something that I think is very trainable, that, that it's, it's not that some people are just born willing to keep pushing. That they, they're, you learn through exposure and through training yourself that, oh yeah, this is hard or this is difficult or this is unfamiliar, but I'm not going to die. And so I can, I can push it a little harder the next time.

I'd love to explore a key concept in, in, in your book. It's the explore-exploit dilemma. You outline it in the book and how it drives our, our decision-making. How does that happen?

It's a great point that it's a choice. And so When I started writing about the idea of exploration, I think I was imagining that the subtitle of the book would be like, how to explore more, exploring is always good, why you should become more of an explorer. And I think I came away with a more nuanced perspective that it is the, what, like you said, the explore-exploit dilemma, which is, do you exploit the knowledge you already have or the path you're already on, or do you explore? And there's a time for both. So it's not all about always, it's like, if you're exploring new music, it's not like, Um, I'm only going to listen to every song once. I'm never going to listen to the same song twice. Sometimes there's a good role for exploiting the knowledge you've already got. So how do you make those decisions? And just to illustrate that, I guess the best illustration of the explore-exploit dilemma is you go to a restaurant you've been to many times before. You know that you like the hamburger, and you have to— you always have that choice. Do I get the thing that I got last time, which I know is good, Or do I try this other thing which might be great but might be terrible? So are you willing to take a chance? And that recurs throughout your life, through your dating life, through your career. On a corporate level, are you going to exploit your current product or explore, invest in R&D for a new product? So these are real choices and it's not just a glib, like, you must explore more. How do you make that choice? Regret is such an important concept that you mentioned. Um, and there's, there's lots of like deep math that goes into how to optimize these choices. And it's not trivial, but one of the heuristics, one of the sort of approximate methods of making good choices is to be optimistic in the face of uncertainty, which means to, if you're, if you're torn between 2 options, think about which one has the best realistic upside. And that's good intuitive advice. It's like you, you're not going to look back and you're going to, you're more likely to look back and regret not asking someone to dance than asking someone to dance and they said no. But it's also the math backs it up. You will minimize your accumulated regret if you're optimistic and go for the best realistic scenario.

The uncertainty that you mentioned, a lot of people feel like we're in this age of uncertainty. And some people, they dread it, right? They avoid the unknown because the fear of the unknown, it could lead to danger or some kind of challenge. There's also a version of ourselves that's actively chasing uncertainty and the unknown. Maybe this could be explained through what we mentioned earlier, predictive processing and seeking out prediction errors. Why is it that we do this? And should we be actively searching for it?

This idea of predictive processing is— it's been around for about 20 years now. It's sort of a theory in neuroscience that tries to explain how brains are wired. And basically what it says is we're, your, your brain, what all it really wants to do is per— be able to predict what's going on in the world around you. It wants to know what's happening. And the, the, the funny thing about this prediction is that you would say, oh, well, if all it wants to know is if it's all about prediction, it should say, let's go into the closet, turn off the lights, close the door, and stay in this dark room because then I can predict exactly what's going to happen. Nothing. And this is in philosophy and in neuroscience, this is called the dark room problem. And the resolution to that is to understand that you don't just, we, I mean, people have done experiments where you look, you lock people in rooms, leave them there and say, just do nothing for a while. Oh, and here's a button. You can shock yourself electrically. People will choose to hit the button to shock themselves because we actually don't, this conflicts with our experience. People don't like doing nothing. And the reason is we don't just want predictability for what's happening right now. We want to be able to predict what's going to happen. We want to see what's coming around the corner. And to do— and that's why we end up drawn to these areas. You know, if there's 2 doors and one's open, one's closed, we want to open the door that's closed and find out what's behind it. And but you're right that we also fear the unknown. It can be stressful. And so in that sense, we can rely on our curiosity to draw us toward things that, that we don't know. But sometimes we have to prod ourselves, push ourselves and say, you know what, it's okay. It's going to be a little stressful to try this new thing or to go down this path that I don't know, but it's worthwhile because it's going to lead us to, to discover, you know, to discover that we actually do like the other dish on the menu better than the thing we've been ordering all this time.

It's interesting because we, we we could desire certainty, but if we have too much of it, we just get bored, right? And then we want to stimulate ourselves. And with the predictive processing, you know, is our goal to decrease predictive error? Like, you know, our brain's always searching for the digestible prediction errors, right? And then in the book, I highlighted a part where you talk about Exploratory versus exploitative, like states of mind in the book. Maybe you could go into what are these states and how can they help us improve and why does more effort create more meaning for us? I tell people, comfort zone's a nice place to visit, but nothing really grows there.

This idea of prediction error that you mentioned is really important because it It's not that we want no prediction error. It's that we, we like the feeling of reducing prediction error. We like, so we don't like when prediction error gets to zero. We don't like knowing everything. We like the feeling of discovering things. And so that suggests that we, we want to be looking for opportunities where it's not, there's a sweet spot. It's not that you want things, everything to be super complicated and incomprehensible. Or too hard. And it's not that you want it to be easy. And, you know, it's— if you're on a sports team, you don't want to play the team where you win 25-nothing, because that's not satisfying either if you know what's going to happen. You want to be in that intermediate zone where you can reduce prediction error. And so, you know, there are times when we are more exploratory or more exploitative, and there are ways of moving yourself to— like, let's say you're trying to Brainstorm for new ideas. You want to be in exploratory frame of mind. How can you do that? Well, there are tactics like zooming out. Think about how will I look back on this choice a year from now, or how will I look back on this decision? What would I be most satisfied with myself? Try and make it less personal because when we're in the moment, when we're in the kind of fight or flight frame of mind, our focus tends to narrow and then we become anxious and we'll make the most— the safest decision. Which is, which is good sometimes. But if you can take a step back, give yourself some space, think about how you'll look back on this decision, you're more likely to, to take a chance.

So you could kind of do these mental experiments where you could kind of travel in the future looking back on, on, on today. It's interesting when you said, you know, when you talk about the studies that people would rather sit, um, you know, in a, in a room and mildly shock themselves rather than just be alone. with, with their own thoughts. And I'm just curious, has your research— have you seen anything in the area of exploration? How can embracing a mindset of exploration lead to things like— we do a lot about thinking and decision-making, problem-solving. And when you're in fight or flight, you're in this kind of survival— you're in your survival mode, right? Your survival brain holds you hostage from your creativity or your imagination, your ability to solve problems. Have you seen anything with exploration related to our thinking capacity and problem-solving skills?

One thing that really surprised me in doing the research was that, you know, it's well known that IQ tests, IQ scores have been drifting upwards for like a century. They keep having to renormalize the scores because people do better on them, because probably because our society demands more, you know, abstract thinking. There's also standardized tests of creativity, and those scores have been going down since the '90s, since the early '90s, and have been actually crashing. In the last 15 years or so. So we're not necessarily doing well at thinking creatively or exploring new ideas. And this is a complicated problem, but I think to me, I talked to one of the researchers I talked to was a guy in Denmark named Mark Malmendorf Andersen who studies play. And I think he makes a compelling point that if you want to be able to identify those sweet spots I was talking about of intermediate uncertainty where you have a chance of really learning something quickly and in a satisfying way. Your sense of play is actually really important. Your sense of what's interesting. And it's easy to say that. It's, oh, we should play more. This doesn't mean you should go to the playground and slide down the slide. It's more about in the— And if we're talking about adults rather than kids, Kids, you give them time and they'll play naturally, right? They're still in tune with this sense of, you know, if they think it's more fun to go up the slide than down the slide, they're going to go up the slide because that's new to them and going to teach them something. For adults, we're constrained by all these responsibilities in life. And so I think we get on that one-track mind of I got to do the next thing, hit the next deadline, you know, pay the next bill. This is difficult. I mean, we do have to pay the bills, but if you're able to carve out space To ask yourself, what do I find interesting among, in this range of options? What would be fun? What would I do if, if I didn't, if I wasn't worried about the next thing? That's, I think that's a really good way of kind of unleashing your, your ability to come up with new or different ideas.

You know, and then internally and also externally, it's like, uh, we have, we have 2 young children and just, you know, the play, they're not also even thinking about other people's opinions and, you know, making mistakes or maybe looking bad. And in my intro of you, clearly you have a diverse set of interests and careers. Have you learned or discovered anything about the process of skill acquisition? How can our listeners embrace continuous learning and have that fun, have that joy, have that excitement? How can they bring that in? Even maybe somebody listening, they're in mid-career, or they think it's too late to change their any part of their life at this point. Your advice be? Are you a high achiever constantly seeking that next level of success? Welcome to the Kwik Success Program. It's a deep dive and support system to master your life and scale to new heights in personal and professional achievement. Included is our exclusive monthly book club where we process transformative ideas from amazing books to level up your learning and your life. We also bring the author to the club to answer your burning questions. You can also participate in monthly live coaching calls with me where your questions meet my decades of expertise. Simply go to kwiksuccess.com. That's kwiksuccess.com and choose the plan That works best for you.

The first thing to understand is that it is normal and rational that as life goes on, you become a little less exploratory because when you're young, you have the whole world to learn about. By the time you're old, you kind of know stuff and, and you, you know what kinds of foods you generally like. And so you don't have to re-explore, you know, learn how to tie your shoes every morning just to be exploratory. We, but we get, get locked in this You know, like half the things we do in a given day are, by some estimates, are habits. And habits can be very powerful because they're efficient, but they constrain us from discovering new things. And so it's important to understand that learning new things uses a completely different part, or uses many different parts of your brain that are different from doing things based on habit. And Maybe this is most clear if we look at like navigation, going, getting from point A to point B. Once you learn the route, you stop thinking about where you are. And now that we have GPS, we never have to think about where we are. So we don't actually use the hippocampus to cognitively map our surroundings. And that, so I guess what the point I'm trying to make is, or the point I hope readers will, or listeners will take away is that Learning something new is different than doing something slightly better that you've already done, and you have to take a deliberate step. So when I— it's amazing how rarely in the context of adult life you have to learn something completely new and be bad at something. So I've been running for many years, and a few years ago I took up rock climbing, and I was and still am terrible at it, but I could just feel that this was a part of my brain that I hadn't stretched in a long time. So I think making a deliberate decision to try something new or different is a good way of kind of exercising that part of yourself that's, that's capable of, of laying down new patterns and new ideas.

In the 2 books I mentioned, Endure and Explorer's Gene, you, you, you, you touch on this balance between mental and in physical training and, you know, individuals who achieve extraordinary feats. What did you have any surprises in your research or was there a key takeaway maybe for someone who's looking to optimize or enhance both those areas?

Look, my background professionally as a journalist is in sports science. So I started out on this track really trying to understand what the, the neatest and coolest and most modern interventions would be to allow me to enhance endurance. So I was looking at things like electric brain stimulation and, you know, taking ketones and, and doing various sort of advanced protocols to enhance my ability to push harder. And I tried out a bunch of these things and it was, it was fun, I'll admit. But where I ended up as a conclusion is that The inner monologue, what you're telling yourself in, you know, inside your head, your self-talk is probably the most important lever we have in terms of, you know, in the context of running a marathon. If you're saying, this is really hard, why did I sign up for this stupid stuff? Then that's a self-fulfilling prophecy in the same way as if you're— whereas if you're telling yourself, It's hard, but this is what— this is how everyone else is feeling, and this is what I trained for. You're much more likely to push through. And I think that's a very general message that applies to intellectual pursuits, creative pursuits, career pursuits too, that if you're— that in a very real— not in a very real neuroscientific way, if you're telling you what you're telling yourself about your capabilities and your interests really can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So you need to decide what you want to do and then, you know, work on internalizing that message.

Yeah, I always tell people your brain is like this incredible supercomputer and your self-talk is a program it's going to run. So if you tell yourself something topical to what we do, like if you tell yourself you're not good at remembering names, you, you probably won't remember the name of the next person you meet because you become self-fulfilling, right? Because you program your mind, you know, to do so. If someone's listening, and I was wondering if you had a, and maybe you don't, but a quick tip or a quick tool for somebody day to day to add more, uh, or distinction or an idea to add more exploration in their day. Is there anything that kind of comes to mind? A tool, a tip, a habit, a routine to kind of, uh, move people into, to be more bold in, in their exploration?

You know, rather than giving a general tip, because there are a lot of like general, just sort of, you know, open yourself to— I'll just give— I'll say the most concrete thing that I have done after writing this book is that unless I'm forced to, I don't use turn-by-turn directions on my GPS anymore.

Interesting.

And I'll still look up how to get from point A to point B, and then I'll try and figure it out, know it, and go. And sometimes I make wrong turns and my kids are in the backseat saying, Daddy, well, you know, why did you make that wrong turn? Mommy uses Waze. Why don't you use Waze? But to me, this is like, uh, it's a, it's both because I, I actually am convinced by some neuroscientific research that it's good to be finding your way around and to be lost sometimes. But it's also because it serves to me as a kind of reminder or as an emblem of the idea that I'm okay to be in the world, not always knowing exactly where I am and where I'm going. And that there's some adventure and fun in heading down a street and not being entirely sure where the next turn is or where I'm going. And so I use that as a reminder to spread that into the rest of my life too.

And that's great because it provides evidence that you are, you know, who you, who you say you are, that you are an explorer, right? And these little things, it could map out into, you know, other areas of our life, you know, for sure. Looking into the— and we talk, it's interesting, we talk about digital. I termed a— I coined a term called digital deduction, where the high reliance on technology to think for us with algorithms or, you know, getting from here to there like GPS, you kind of go on default, right? And you don't have to exercise or build your visual spatial intelligence, you know, and seeing new things, try to figure things out. And I find that our nervous system, our brain's like a muscle. It's like use it or lose it. And sometimes technology, like digital dementia, if everything's remembering something for us, we don't have to do it. And like, how many phone numbers do you remember, right? Not that I want to memorize 500 numbers, but it should be concerning we haven't exercised those muscles to remember one or a PIN number or passcode or something we just read. Looking into the future, how do you see the ideas in The Explorer's Gene influencing the next generation of explorers or innovators and learners? You know, what's, what's the first step? Um, you know, also that you recommend people take, um, obviously buying your book.

That's step zero. But so what I would say is I think we're at a stage that's sort of maybe 20 years behind where we were with physical fitness and rec— you know, nobody doubts that, uh, you know, driving 2 miles to the store is easier than biking 2 miles to the store, which is easier than walking 2 miles to the store, especially if you have to carry groceries. So it's the technology has made things easier and in a lot of ways better. But we now recognize that if you let things get too easy for your body, your body is going to get very, very unhealthy. And I think we're, we're in the midst of a recognition that the same thing is true for the way we use our minds, that it's nice to offload some of that cognitive load. It feels good. But if you don't load your brain, if you're not, if you're not using your brain for the things it was designed to be used for, then the brain's going to— your body, it's very smart. It doesn't want to waste energy on stuff it's not using. So it's going to be like, yeah, I think we can shut down this section of the brain because it's, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's no longer required. So I, I think we're going to— I don't think it's going to be easy. I think we're going to be struggling with this in decades to come, that there's going to be a tension between Look at— it's great how much technology can do for us, but we still need to remember some numbers. We still need to be able to do arithmetic in our head, not because our phones can't do it for us, but because it's part of what makes us human. And it's part of what makes— I guess, you know, to zoom out to your bigger question, it's like, what makes life interesting and worth living? And it's not just getting enough food. You know, I think there's some really interesting research suggesting that meaningful things, things that make us feel like our lives have meaning, tend to be challenging and uncertain and, and, you know, involve embracing some risk.

Very well put. Yeah, it's use it or lose it. Technology is a wonderful tool, but if it's using us, then we, then we become the tool, right? Technology is very, an elevator. If you live on the 5th floor, offices there, it's very, it's a form of technology. It's very convenient. But then you don't get those steps in. So, you know, it's balancing something convenient, but it could also be crippling if you rely on— if I put my arm in a sling for a year, it wouldn't grow stronger. It wouldn't even stay the same. It would grow weaker. And we don't want our curiosity or our mental strength, you know, our focus to atrophy, if you will. To end each episode, I always ask our guests, because at the core, after 400+ episodes, it's really about learning. And I'm just curious, what is one thing that you're currently exploring or learning about or studying that has you excited and lights you up? Hmm.

That's an interesting question. Yeah. I mean, I'm— I almost hate to say this, but what I'm currently exploring is using— is how artificial intelligence is going to fit into my life or into my work life in terms of digesting and analyzing and sifting through large quantities of information. So that's, that's probably the biggest area of kind of where I feel like, okay, I'm, I'm learning something new that I'm actually not necessarily convinced I want to learn, but I think I need to understand, even if maybe, maybe the conclusion is going to be that I don't want to use these tools. Right? Like, I, I don't know, but I feel like to, to live in the world today, I need to understand. And that, and that takes a lot of work, like, because I have some very, um, well-developed habits of how I work. And so to, to think about disrupting that is actually a little bit threatening, but I think it's important for me.

I, I think a lot of people listening, it resonates, that, that resolution, it really resonates with them. So I, I appreciate it. I want to thank you for being on our show. Uh, I've been looking forward to this conversation. Where can people go deeper in your in your work or connect with you?

I have a website, alexhutchinson.net. I couldn't get .com, but alexhutchinson.net, which has links to all my work. I write a column roughly once a week for Outside Magazine on mostly on sports science and endurance. So those are 2 good places to find me.

Wonderful. Social media as well? Yep.

I'm Sweat Science on X and Sweat_Science on Instagram. So Um, a very confusing array of, uh, of, uh, handles, but I'm out there.

Okay, fantastic. We'll put that again in the, in the show notes at jimkwik.com/notes. I would actually challenge everyone to take a screenshot wherever you're consuming this and, uh, tag Alex, tag myself, uh, you know, because you tag us, I'll, and maybe share one thing that you're exploring, right? We like, we like our, the, the community interaction, uh, because you tag us, uh, I'll see it and I'll repost a couple. And, um, where can people get your book?

They are both available at, uh, You know, at your local bookstore and also at the big, you know, at Barnes& Noble and Amazon and all those places.

I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you everybody for tuning in. As always, you could find more ways to fuel your brain's performance on our YouTube channel where we put the extended version of this conversation. You can join 1.8 million subscribers there and make sure you hit the subscribe button, leave a comment. I read every single— I speed read every single one of them. Um, under the episode, let us know what you thought. Um, this is your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Until next time, be limitless. Limitless.