How to Become an Active Learner for Life | David Novak

So when you put learning at the center of everything you do, you can grow your career, your leadership, your relationships, and your overall joy and fulfillment in life.

Most things can be learned. Most things can be picked up, and you get there through observation.

But even for people who are naturally curious and interested in solving problems, being an effective learner who can turn their learning into action, it takes insight and it takes practice.

It's what do you do once you learn something? Do you put it into action?

Somebody who could read a book and not apply it is no better off than somebody who couldn't read the book to begin with.

As a leader, you have to see the world the way it really is, not the way you want it to be.

I believe you learn to earn to return.

If you really, really want to make an impact, you gotta teach people what you've learned.

Do you have a key habit or routine that you recommend for leaders to do these things you mentioned, to stay grounded, to stay humble, to stay focused, to stay more effective, to stay curious?

I do, and it was probably one of the most effective tools that I used when I was the CEO of the company, and I still use it today. And I called it my 3x5 exercise.

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I'm your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. I am especially excited about today's guest and the topic because of our somewhat overlapping journey that led us both to the area of learning and now helping other people to learn better. Starting life As a trailer park kid who lived in 23 states before high school, Novak built his career at PepsiCo, rapidly ascending to become co-founder and CEO of one of the largest corporations in the world, the global restaurant icon Yum Brands, with 55,000 restaurants plus and over 1 million employees. He credits active learning with helping them to get there. He is the author of the bestselling book, which I highly recommend, How Leaders Learned. Welcome to the show, David.

Well, Jim, it's a real honor to be with you. I admire your approach to coaching and leading and your passion for learning, which we share.

I really appreciate reading the book. We've gifted— I've gifted 2 dozen copies to corporate clients and then coaching clients. So this is gonna be an interesting conversation. I would encourage everybody to listen to the extended version on YouTube where we go beyond 20 minutes. You could join our One Point 8 million subscribers there. As I mentioned in the intro, you grew up as a trailer park kid who lived in all these states before high school and ended up as CEO of one of the largest corporations in the world. Maybe we could just start by asking, what role did learning, how did it help you get there? And how did it become the thing that lights, lights you up?

Well, it, it's interesting, you know, people ask me about my upbringing, you know, 'cause You know, I lived in a trailer. Largest house I had, Jim, was 8 feet wide by 46 feet long until I was like in 8th grade. And like you said, we lived in 23 states by the time I got into junior high. And my mom would check me into schools every 3 months. We'd move about every 3 months and she'd say, David, you better make a friend. Because we're leaving. And, you know, I learned that you're one friend away from happiness.

Okay?

Mm-hmm. And that there's nothing like that person who basically reaches out and makes you feel comfortable. And, and, you know, I, I tried to keep that through throughout my career because whenever someone new would come into our company or I went into a situation where I knew somebody might not know somebody, I always was, tried to be the first to say, hey, you know, welcome. Glad to have you here. And, uh, Let's keep going. You know, the other thing that I learned, Jim, is that when you grow up in a trailer, you know, people can stereotype you. When I was young, I didn't know I was, you know, trailer trash. You know, I heard that later and then I thought, God, the people I grew up with, the families that I lived with, we weren't trailer trash. We were Americans that wanted to pursue the American dream with our families. And, you know, so it really taught me to avoid stereotypes and, and to have an appreciation for, for, you know, all kinds of people and, and, and, and really treat everybody with respect. And, you know, my mom and dad were very, uh, humble and came from humble backgrounds. But, you know, if they would've had someone like you, Jim, who's a great coach and leader and whatever, could've opened up doors for 'em, they could've, they could've been CEOs. And I would always see my mom and dad when I went out into our restaurants. They were just as smart as me, if not smarter. And when I would go out in the restaurants, I'd find people who were incredibly smart. They just didn't maybe have the breaks that I had. So growing up in that environment just really taught me so much that I was actively able to put into places as I moved forward in my career. And That having that learning mindset is something that, you know, I attribute to my success. And I think frankly, it is the habit that the world's most successful people really have in their own way learned how to master. And that's why I wrote the book, is I want to help people learn how to make learning, you know, that habit that will help them become all they can be in life.

I think when our community asked us about doing this interview with you, they saw parallels. Our community knows that I had a brain injury when I was 5. I was put in special education, learning difficulties. We lived in the back of the laundromat that my mom, you know, worked at. It took me 3 years to learn how to read. I was called the boy with the broken brain all through school.

Oh my gosh.

And one of those challenges, so I could— when you talking about the the trailer identity. Those labels sometimes become our limits. And, but it's just a reminder to everyone who's listening that it doesn't matter where you're starting, right? That everybody can learn and grow. And in the book, you talk about learning and active learning. Maybe you could talk about where you see the difference between passive learning and active learning.

It's one thing to learn something, you know, and I know when I When I first started writing the book, I was talking about, I thought about being an avid learner. And because I really felt like I was an avid learner and a lot of the leaders that I knew were avid learners. But then I thought, you know what? It's not just learning for learning's sake, which can make you book smart. Okay? It's what do you do once you learn something? Do you put it into action? And what I realized is that the best The best leaders, most successful people, they're not avid learners. You know, they've taken it a step further. They've become active learners. So they seek knowledge wherever they can find it, and then they apply it. And they say, well, what if, what if I did this this way? I might be a different person or I might have a different business, but hey, if they're doing this over at Amazon and I happen to be running a restaurant business, how could I take what they're doing there and apply it? To my business and put it into action. You know, I've had the good fortune to know Tom Brady, who is one of the best active learners I've ever talked to in my life. And, you know, he goes to a throwing coach. He goes to this guy named Tom House. Okay? And Tom House is renowned for being able to help people with their footwork and throw the ball better than they ever thought they Now, Tom could go to meet Tom House, work with him for a few days, and then go back to the New England Patriots or the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and just keep doing what he was doing. No, that's not what he does. He goes, he learns, he applies, and then he puts it to use and he gets better and better. And Tom House told me, who I interviewed in one of my podcasts, that he'd never seen anybody You know, more diligent about putting into practice what, what he learns. He said he'd come to the, to the training session, he'd write down everything afterwards. He says, now what do I need to do? And he'd write it down in his words. And then he'd ask Tom House to tell him what it was in his words. And then he'd go back and he'd put it into action. He'd get better and better. And I think that's what, you know, the best, best in the world do is, you know, they seek it out. And then they put it into action.

Because the idea here is like, we hear this phrase that knowledge is power, but a lot of people know things, but they're not applying it. So it has the potential to be power. Somebody could read a book and not apply it is no better off than somebody who couldn't read the book to begin with. Like, if they're illiterate, right? If they're not using it.

Couldn't agree with you more, Jim. You know, and it's like, that's one of the things I talk about is in the book, write about is to learn to be a pattern thinker.

Hmm.

You know, it's, it's like taking what might be 2 seemingly different things and then bringing them back into your world and then saying, how can I apply it there? And, you know, I, I, pattern thinking was a huge part of my success. You know, one of the things that I'm attributed with is, is coming up with Cool Ranch Doritos. And, and, and the way how I did that was I took my team, we went into the grocery aisle, we didn't go to the snack aisle, we went to the salad dressing aisle, and we found out that the most popular And fastest growing new salad dressing was ranch-flavored dressing. And then I said, okay, how could we apply that to Doritos, which was the businesses that I was working on? And we came up with Cool Ranch Doritos, and it came from looking at a salad dressing, not by going into the snack aisle and seeing what everybody else was doing. And, you know, so I've always Loved looking at what's going on in the world and then asking myself, boy, if you can be successful over here doing this, how could we be successful doing it?

Pattern recognition is a wonderful definition of genius, I feel, rather than an IQ test. Somebody that can see patterns. If they're a genius in finance, they see financial patterns. Or somebody who's an expert at health might see patterns of wellness. And there's patterns to mistakes also. Do you see, what do you think is some of the mistakes an individual or aspiring leader makes when it comes to learning?

I think John Wooden said, it's what you learn after you know it all that matters most, something like that. And I think what happens to people who derail is that they think they've learned it all. They think they now know it all. And that gives them an arrogance that shuts out people, makes people feel like they're not really valued. And I think that really stunts their ability to lead. And I really believe that when you think about the leaders that are successful, they've learned to really be who they are. They realize that they know they can't be anybody else. Okay. They've been able to have what I call like an uncanny combination of what I call confidence and humility. You know, they're very confident because nobody's going to follow you off a cliff unless they get a sense that they know where you know where you're going. You know, but that confidence is rooted in competence. It's because you've done the hard yards. You know how to get done what needs to get done. And that inspires other people. But then they combine it with humility. Okay? They have this confidence that you feel, but they combine it with the humility that says, I don't know everything. And most importantly, it says, I need you. Okay?

Hmm.

And, you know, that's an incredible, incredible superpower to have both of those things. And then the third thing that I think they do is that they have this insatiable desire to just keep getting better and better and better and raising the bar on themselves. And that is another thing that really leads to learning. That's why they seek out the knowledge. They don't care. They do have no ownership on the idea. Yeah, it's always better. Look, I love coming up with my own ideas. I mean, it's fantastic when that happens, but a really great leader They don't care, even though they might like coming up with the ideas themselves. They don't care where it comes from. And then when they get those ideas, they recognize the heck outta people for giving them to them. And again, showing people that they're valued. And I think that learning mindset is what really helps people work through those 3 things. You learn how to be authentic. You learn that you can't be anybody else. You learn your trade, which gives you confidence, and you learn the importance of valuing others, which gives you the humility. And then you learn that when you look around, all the people that are really successful, they're not satisfied. I call it a healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo. I mean, they're constantly pushing themselves to get better and better.

And anchored in humility, knowing that you have this open mind, keeps you open. Right. If you feel like you don't know anything and everyone could teach you something because they've had other experiences, life experiences, distinctions that we don't have, that your mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open. But it also, the humility you mentioned, also allows you to be curious, right? And you emphasize in the book the importance of continuous learning for leaders. Maybe you could talk a little bit about how do you cultivate that curiosity? Is that something just somebody is born with? How do people stay open to new ideas even when they've reached maybe even the top of their field? We have a lot of decision makers. Our company serves half of the Fortune 500 companies in mental fitness training. So we have a lot of listeners that are at a high level, but how do they remain curious?

I think the most successful people really know the importance of asking really great questions. They've discovered that, boy, when you can ask that great question, that really leads to a great insight. It really moves the ball forward. So, you know, they've observed, you know, so many times people talk about being a born leader or being born curious, you know, uh, I don't agree with that. You know, I, I, I think you have some certain things that help you. be inherently better at some things than other people. But I think most things can be learned. Most things can be picked up, and you get there through observation. You know, if you have any kind of drive, you will look around you and you will see who's doing something better than you. And then you gotta ask yourself, why is that happening? What do they do that maybe I'm not doing? And I think just that self-reflection, building that kind of awareness of the world outside you and then bringing it back to yourself, I think that really allows you to know yourself and then ultimately grow yourself. And it's like, I know I have skills because of the way I grew up that I know how to get along with people. I know how to— I know how to meet people maybe a little bit easier than other people do. But, you know, I started out as an advertising copywriter and I ended up as a CEO. Now, how in the hell did that happen? I mean, you know, it happened because I looked around and I saw what other people were doing and what I needed to do if I was going to really take my performance to the next level or, and move up in my career. And so I was constantly evaluating if I had one job, who had the job above me, what were they doing? What skills did they have that maybe I needed to learn? And then what I would do is go out and seek those skills and find them. When I became the CEO of Yum Brands, I'd never had any experience working with Wall Street. So we had connections with the Coca-Cola Company, and I knew that Warren Buffett was on the Coca-Cola board. And I called Doug Ivester up and I said, could you introduce me to Warren Buffett? I'd like to go talk to him and learn his advice on how to work with the investment community. And so I went to see Warren Buffett and I did it for 17 straight years, Jim. And it was just, we loved it. And we had lunch and I would bring my top performers and he'd have lunch with them and me. And we I'd learn from him every year and it was so spectacular. But when I went to see him, he taught me this concept of sober selling. You know, I'm a very passionate, enthusiastic person. I love my brands. I love the business. And he said, David, he said, have you ever talked about what could go wrong with your business? And I said, oh no, Warren, I'm always telling everybody how great everything is and, you know, all this potential we have. And he said, well, you know what? Tell people at the end of your presentations what could go wrong. And he said, that'll give you a lot of credibility that you've thought about that and you're aware of that. So I started doing that, Jim, and I have to tell you, it was enormously successful. I found most of the investors would argue with me and say, oh no, no, that's not going to happen. Okay. But by bringing it up, I think it gave me a lot more credibility because I think, and I write about this in the book, you have to, As a leader, you have to see the world the way it really is, not the way you want it to be. Okay? And the more you can show that you're seeing the whole picture and you learn how to do that, I think the more impactful and more trusted you are.

You mentioned Warren Buffett. So you've worked with or spent time with some of the greatest minds, modern minds in business. Was there one thing that surprised you, like a lesson, an observation, as you've mentioned, that you've learned from observing other leaders? And wondering, you know, if our audience could take that idea or insight to accelerate their own growth, a surprising lesson from some of these great minds.

I think that one of the things that I've learned is that the best of the best are very grateful. They're really grateful that they had this opportunity. They don't quite understand why they got the opportunity to become who they have become, but they don't feel like it was something that they were entitled to. They feel very blessed by it.

Yeah.

And that gratitude, I think, Raises their performance level and gives them a humility that allows them to bring out the best from other people. And, you know, I think that gratitude and a lack of what I call a sense of entitlement is really what separates a lot of people. I wanted to The great leaders, probably maybe the best CEO in the world, certainly the best financial CEO in the world is Jamie Dimon. And Jamie Dimon is just at his very core is a really humble, humane, caring person that feels very grateful that he happens to be running the biggest financial institution in in the world. And, you know, he, he's real. He has that genuineness that, that, that, that causes people to gravitate to him. Now, if he didn't have that sense of gratitude, I don't think he would send out that kind of karma, okay, that would make people really want to get on his bandwagon. And it seems like everybody that I know that's successful has that.

Yeah, gratitude's an amazing foundation. It's been my observation, what you appreciate and grateful for, what you appreciate appreciates, you know, all around.

Absolutely. This is a great— I love that. What you appreciate appreciates. And, and, you know, I, I, John Weinberg, who was the, uh, the founding partner of Goldman Sachs, he was attributed with building the Goldman Sachs culture. He, he was on our board at the beginning back in 1997 when we were spun off from PepsiCo. But he was always a great coach to me. And, you know, but he told me, he said, David, you know, one of the things I've learned over time, and I've seen a lot of people come and go, he says, is that you either grow or you swell. And the people who derail, they swell. And so, you know, growth is what we're all looking for, right? And the way how you grow Is, is you do learn. You just keep pushing the envelope on, on what you can learn and what you can become and, you know, how you can, you know, polish your own apple and, or polish the business, uh, the apple of the business that you happen to, to, to run. But that's the, that learning, that quest for learning is, is, is, is the driver. It, it's what really you know, makes you successful and, you know, people you know successful.

Going back to leadership, I was wondering, before leading others, I assume you need to lead yourself. And I was just wondering if there were insights or do you have a key habit or routine that you recommend for leaders to do these things you mentioned, to stay grounded, to stay humble, to stay focused, to stay more effective, to stay curious?

In fact, yeah, I do. And it was probably one of the most effective tools that I used when I was CEO of the company, and I still use it today. And I called it my 3x5 exercise. I did it myself first, and then I would share it with everybody else, and then I would ask them, in the case of Yum Brands, I had our top 50 leaders. I asked them to do the same thing, but it's basically You get a 3 by 5 card or a 4 by 6. It doesn't matter. It could be an 8 by 10, you know, but on one half of it, you write down, what am I today? And you force yourself to really think about, based on what you know about yourself, what other people tell you about yourself, what am I today? And then on the other half, you write, how can I be even more effective tomorrow? You know, for example, like when I was coming up, in business, I was very, very enthusiastic. Okay? But I was so enthusiastic, I could be a little bit overwhelming. Okay? And so I needed to say, okay, I was enthusiastic, so I needed to evolve in that particular year to tempered enthusiasm. Just dial it back a little bit. Okay? You know, on a technical skill, when I used to be a very I mean, almost fearful presenter or public speaker. So, you know, I would write down fearful presenter. You know, what I had to do is become at least confident, you know, or at least competent, you know, and, and, you know, and that would force me to, to, to, to literally, you know, seek out somebody who could help me with my speaking ability. And, you know, it's funny when I was coming up in business, I bet I would say when I made a presentation, first of all, I'd start out with a stupid joke just to try to make myself relax. That really was never that funny. And then I'm, I bet I would say, you know, 1,000 times, you know, what would seem like 1,000 times I'd hear my— and, and I also would tell you, I would hear myself talk. So if I made a mistake, I would hear it because I was so into being so good that, you know, I was just, you know, focused on, on the wrong thing. So. I went to this person to help me with my ability to do presentations. I saw myself on videotape. He gave me some suggestions. I took it, you know, and I got better and better. And then I would get in jobs where I had to speak more and I had to get better and better at it. Now I get paid incredible amounts of money to just go speak to organizations, you know, in 45 minutes, you know. And, you know, for me, it all goes to, you know, our nonprofit work. But the fact of the matter is, if you would've told me when I was 28 or 29 years old that David Novak would be getting paid to give motivational speeches or anything, I wouldn't have believed it, Jim. But the fact of the matter is I learned how to do it, but it was within me. And, you know, I learned The importance of not being listening to what I had to say, but actually be focused on the target. You know, who am I talking to out there? And then if I made a mistake, I didn't really you know I didn't even know it because I was so into talking to you. Okay, it it didn't matter. And and then if I it didn't it was a really bad mistake, I'd make fun of myself for making the mistake. You know, so and people would like you for it because it would make you vulnerable, make you human. But all these things just you know. These are things you pick up over time, but only if you have a mindset that says, I want to get better at something, I gotta learn how to do it. But I have countless, uh, examples of things like that. I'm constantly working on myself. But anyway, I do the 3 by 5 card every year and I post it on my refrigerator so I look at it every year and every day. So I'm looking at it. And when I was, uh, coaching my people, I would start out with everybody, okay, let's talk about your 3 by 5 card. How you doing? You know, let's talk about that. Then we go through the, the hard objectives, the, you know, key performance issues, and we talk about that. But we always started out first with, how are you developing yourself as a leader? And, you know, how are you coming on your 3x5 card? And that was so powerful. That was, and it, it was the best way to, best way to coach because, you know, people will only care about you until you show them. that you care about them. And, you know, when you get into that as the first thing you do in your coaching, and then you get into your, the harder business things, I think it says, hey, I'm really invested in you growing as a person.

But I do it.

I will do it on January 1st. I'm already working on it. And in fact, you know, when I do have my New Year's dinners or whatever, I always try to have everybody Come with a question for the table that causes you to have some self-reflection.

And that reflection is so powerful because what I'm hearing you say is that when you're humble enough to know that you're not— I mean, you struggled in these areas. Let's say it's public speaking. You found a coach, you watched video of yourself, you refined, you didn't see it as failure, you saw it as feedback. Right. And feedback is the is the breakfast of champions, right? That there is no failure. You know, failure is not the opposite of success. It's just part of success. I think Seth Godin talks about that, who we had on the podcast recently. I believe the life you live are lessons you teach. In your book, you touch on creating impact beyond just the now, the immediate. And I was wondering if you have any advice for leaders, how maybe they should think about building a legacy of learning that continues to influence others, maybe even long after that they are, are gone. Because like you struggle in these areas, your struggles became your strengths, 'cause with challenge came a lot of change. And then it's a reminder, everyone listening also, that every pro was once an amateur, right? Every expert was once a beginner. And when you follow that path of learning, But in terms of legacy, how would you recommend our aspiring or established leaders think about building a legacy of learning? Maybe that continues to influence beyond themselves.

One of my chapters is called Learn by Teaching. You know, I think one of the most selfish things you can do as a leader is to get knowledge and hoard it and keep it to yourself. You gotta spread it. So if you really want to create a lasting legacy and you really want, you know, to help people, you do it by sharing people what you've learned, the good, the bad, the ugly, and you let people learn from your experience and that will accelerate their experience. And, you know, this was, so powerful. People ask me, David, how could you spend— because these were 3-day seminars. I did it basically with over 4,000 people over the course of my CEO days. Okay? And they said, how can you spend so much time doing leadership? It was the training. It was the most powerful thing I did, Jim, because I learned what was going on in the company. I learned the people. I helped people figure out how they could take their own performance to the next level, their project that they were working on to the next level. It was amazing. And, you know, I think if you really, really want to make an impact, you, you gotta teach people what you've learned. And when you do that, it is the most rewarding thing that you will ever do. And for me, it's the, it's the gift that keeps on giving because I think in our country, it's so important to, to do because we have too much toxic leadership in our country. The Gallup numbers are, are just staggering. You know, that how dissatisfied people are, you know, with, with their boss or their coach. I don't like the word boss, but, you know, the idea of they're just not getting the coaching and the appreciation that they deserve. And so if I can help people get better at that, just think of all the people's lives, you know, we will influence. And because people, you know, how you treat someone who works for It's going to make or break their day. They're going to go home, they're going to be either happy or sad. They're going to— it just changes everything for people. So why not teach people how to treat people well with respect? And I think any leader that really wants to do something that's going to impact the people that they have influence over, Then they need to share what they know.

I love that. It's one of those things where if I give you a dollar and you give me a dollar, we have the same dollar. But if I share a new idea with you that you didn't have before and you share a new idea with me, all of a sudden we have 2 brand new ideas, right, that we can make decisions on and make change. So it's not— and when you're teaching others, it's not just You know, we're talking about like neurological networks, but it's also your social networks, you know, the people that you're influencing. I believe you learn to earn to return, right? And it's the hero's journey. You know, as you mentioned, you watch any of the, you know, frameworks, Joseph Campbell's work where you have the individual go out and, you know, make that decision to aspire for something more and face his challenges, get mentors, fights the dragon. But always comes, gets the elixir, but comes back with the elixir, that treasure to share with others. And, you know, I think it's extremely powerful. And when you teach it, you get to learn it selfishly. When you teach something, you get to learn it better yourself.

Oh yeah, you get so much better at it. And then you find yourself, oh, am I doing that? Did I do that today? No, I didn't. I better start doing it. It's like you hold yourself accountable. When you go public, I always say go public because you can't go back.

Yeah, we have a rule with our students. For every hour you spend learning something, you have to spend an equal hour implementing it and applying it. A lot of our students who are listening to this ask this question. You talked about the power of questions is how could I use this?

Why must I use this? You and I are, we are 1,000% aligned on this. Okay. And I coined that to be active learning. You developed it way before I even thought of it. Okay. But we both know that if you have that kind of mindset, you may not end up becoming the CEO of the company, or you may not end up, you know, getting to the very top of the mountain as an athlete. You know, you pick the vocation, but what you will do is that you will maximize whatever potential that you have. if you constantly are learning. And that's all you can ask yourself. And then I think you can go to bed at night and kind of rest well.

Yeah.

You know, knowing that you've done the best for yourself, best for your family. I mean, this learning mindset goes into all aspects of life. And, you know, I try to learn business-wise, personal-wise, Family-wise, sports. I play sports. I mean, I'm constantly, okay, what is it that I got to get better at to achieve my goals in this area?

And knowing that your mind is not the same mind that woke up when you put your head on that pillow, you are a different person than you were the day before, or you've discovered more of yourself. In business, we hear a lot of people say, I have 30 years of experience. But after having a conversation with some of these individuals, you know, it, they, it seems like they have 1 year of experience that they've repeated 20, 30 years.

That is so good.

You know, when, when you take learning out of the equation, you know, they're exactly the same. And the world has changed so much, you know, the, and the marketplace has changed so much. You mentioned the power of action, and I think, you know, everyone should just, as one action step, pick up your book, How Leaders Learn. For someone reading How Leaders Learn, going back to the power of acting on what you've learned, maybe you have 1, 2, or 3 immediate actions that our listeners, you would recommend that they take to start learning and leading at a higher level today.

I think, number one, you want to look at everything as a learning opportunity. So, so, so open up, open up your mind to that. That basic premise is that what can I learn from this particular situation? Even if it's a bad situation, how can you flip the script and say, okay, what can I, what can I get at? Okay. Number 2, really take the time to reflect so that you have a high self-awareness of who you are as a person and where your particular business is so that you, you, you have a real understanding of who you are and what your business is. And then do a know-how building thought process where you say, who can I go to that will help me get better in these areas? You know, now, I was able as CEO to go see Warren Buffett, but it doesn't— you could be just starting in a company. Look around who's really good at what you got to get better at and go ask them what they would do if they were you. I mean, people like to talk about themselves. You learn that by reading Dale Carnegie. It's like, get people to talk about what they're success— why, who they are, why they're so successful, and then learn from them. Okay? But But actually think about your— put process around learning so that you can identify who you can go to to help your business or help yourself really grow. So those are 2 big things, I think.

And it's really real and raw to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and have that self-reflection. For leaders at the top of their game, if they wanted to deepen that self-awareness, Like, you, you know, knowing yourself is part of the game. That's why people, they, they journal, they, they learn, they go to therapy, they do, you know, they do the work. And then once you know yourself, like when you have the curiosity to know yourself, and then the other part is you have the courage to be yourself, where a lot of people learn things, but they're not acting or they don't have the courage to take those steps. I'm curious for the leaders that you spend time with, Is there any recommendations you have for somebody who, like, to build self-awareness? You know, because it helps you to avoid blind spots and maintain, you know, your edge.

It's really hard when you get up there because people are afraid to really give you your, the unvarnished truth. So I always tell everybody, the higher up you go, the more you have to push for truth. You got to make sure you get the truth and then you got to identify who are your real truth tellers.

Oh, great question.

Who's going to give you the real skinny? Okay. So I would always go, if I was having lunch or if I was meeting with the restaurant manager or if let's say you and I had a good business relationship or I was trying to get to know you and I knew, but you were looking at me from a different kind of vantage point for whatever reason. I might say to you, you know, Jim, what would you do if you were me to improve my own leadership? If you have power over somebody, the first thing they're going to say, oh, nothing. You're great.

You're great.

No problem. Then I say, no. Okay.

No.

What? Ask the question again. And they say, more times than not, they're going to say, no, you're really doing a good job.

Nice.

And then go, Ask it that third time. Third, you know that old phrase, third time's a charm? Third time's a charm. They'll go, you know, you're really doing well, but you know, you might want to think about this. Okay? And, but you've got to push for that. You got to push for the truth. All right? And you do that by asking the questions that will give you feedback until you get it. Okay? And then Once you get great feedback and you can actually do something with it, then scream from the rooftop that that person gave you that feedback that helped you get to that idea. Then you're gonna have—

Give me the credit.

More and more truth tellers in your organization. Then I think, you know, you have a network that you've built over time, or you want to be building that network. Look for who really has your best interests at heart. that has no problem telling you what you need to do or how you can get better. And go to those truth tellers. You know, my wife was always a truth teller. Okay? I mean, she was incredible. If I wanted to get the real skinny, I got it from her. She had no problem. I mean, if everybody else was telling me I just had an A on my speech, She'd tell me it was a B, and I go, well, why was it a B? How could you possibly tell me it's a B? She'd give me the reason why it was a B, you know, or what I could have done better. But I think we need those people. We need those people in our life, and we need to value them and let them know how much we do appreciate them.

Yeah, I love how you honor people and appreciate individuals, you know, as well as ideas. Final question. I would be remiss not to ask this on a, you know, conversation about learning. Is there one thing that you are currently learning or plan to be learning or studying that has you particularly excited?

The one thing I'm most excited about in my life right now is I'm now writing country songs.

I love this.

And I've got an album that I'm going to be doing next year. And, you know, I'm going to use it to raise money for my late wife's Diabetes Institute, the Wendy Novak Diabetes Institute. But I've written, you know, these, I think they're really good songs. I have a lot of people who've told me that they really like them. I'm going to try to get some top singers to sing them for this album.

Yeah.

And, but so I'm kind of learning the songwriting and music business as I go. But I love it and I'm having fun with it. You know, right here, you know, is a song that I was working on this morning. That, you know, I'm really excited about. And so, yeah, that's what it, you know, so I, my, my granddaughter gave me, you know, a book on how Taylor Swift writes songs. So, you know, I'm trying to, you know, look at that as well. But, you know, it's, it's a fun thing. You know, my wife, before she died, she gave me a guitar. You know, because I'm a writer, I'm a creative person, I'm a concept person. I'm not a musician. And I said, there's no way I can do the guitar. You know, I mean, I won't get good enough at it. She says, well, that doesn't sound like a very good learning mentality. And, you know, I still haven't learned the guitar. Okay. But I am learning more about how to write songs. But, you know, maybe someday I'll pick that guitar up she gave me and get better at it.

It's absolutely outstanding. I feel inspired. Always be learning. I think that's actively learning is the message that we have for everybody today. How can people stay in touch? I mean, obviously, I recommend everyone get a copy of your book. Where they could find books? Is there a way for them to connect?

If you're an active learner, the way I think I can help you the most is I think you need to listen to my How Leaders Lead Podcast. It's a highly rated podcast, but I interview people like Tom Brady, Jamie Dimon, Condoleezza Rice. I just did Jenny Britton, who's founded Jenny's Ice Cream. You know, I did one with Fawn Weaver recently who's done Uncle Nearest Whiskey. She's incredible. She's, her whole life is a leadership story. But I've got incredible podcasts that will teach you so much about leadership, and that's why I did it. How Leaders Lead. This is, you know, you can pick it up from that. I also have a How Leaders Lead app, which is a daily 2-minute devotional on leadership. It's free. You can go to it where I take, I've basically done 2-minute or under clips from the podcast I've done that I post every day, just like it'd be like a Bible devotional. If you go to LinkedIn, constantly writing articles, David Novak's on LinkedIn, David Novak Ogo on Twitter. I do a daily inspiration that I try to do every day. You know, I'm, I'm ha— that's the way to kind of get in touch with me. But it's a great honor to be on this show, Jim, because I appreciate what you do. And how you do it. And it's an honor for me to be able to share what I've learned, and that gives me a tremendous amount of joy.

I could see it. I think passion is what lights you up, and learning lights you up, and purpose is how you use your passion to light other people up. So you love to learn, it lights you up, and sharing learning with others lights them up. We find more of our purpose. Highly recommend everyone check out the book. We will put a link to everything that David just mentioned, actually, to his website, to his app, everything, social media, at our show notes, as we always do, at jimkwik.com/notes. And as always, you can find more ways to fuel your learning and potential on our YouTube channel, where we post extended versions of this episode. Feel free to screenshot this and tag us both Both on social media. Share one thing you learned and one action you're gonna take because of it. Make sure you hit the subscribe button. Leave a comment under this episode. We read every single one of them. This is your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Until next time, be limitless.