How to Create a Positive Peer Group with Jon Levy & Jim Kwik

Welcome back, Kwik Brain. Your question for today, this is an important one. How do you create your positive peer group? For years, we've been talking about how do you optimize your brain health? We talked about good brain diet, we talked about sleep, we talked about optimizing and reducing your stress management. Yet there was one element that we mentioned that we haven't gone really deep into. So I'm excited about this episode, how to create a positive peer group. You know, you've heard these phrases in personal development, who you spend time with is who you become, and we're the average of the 5 people we spend the most time with, but we know nobody could do it alone. That it's not just your neurological networks, for sure, it's also your social networks. So to have this conversation with you, I've brought a good friend on. His name is Jon Levy. He's a human behavioral scientist and author of this brand new book, You're Invited.

I love that title.

The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence. Welcome on this— welcome to the show, Jon.

I am super excited to be here, Jim. You know that like literally for years I've been a fan of your work and the community that you've built is absolutely incredible. And so it's a treat to be on. Thanks for having me.

Thank you, man. Oh, I really enjoyed reading your first book, The 2 AM Principle. And it's interesting. Let me paint this picture. Years and years ago, it seems like a lifetime ago, I got this invitation to all— I'm talking to our audience here, and it's for dinner. And I show up, and there are all these rules in the invitation. I show up to this home I've never been in, in the Hollywood Hills, very nice home. And I show up, and there's like the concierge or butler that's there that greets us and makes drinks. And there's these rules. I'm in there with about a dozen or so strangers who I don't know, and you're not allowed to share your last name. You're not allowed to talk at all about your career. And I found myself, interesting enough, chopping onions and making some guac and doing dishes next to the most interesting people. And I get to spend some time with some very interesting people. And it's not until we sit down and after we co-make this meal together that we sit around the dinner table and we try to guess who these interesting individuals that John has invited us to be a part of this dinner are. And we go around the table and we guess. And then it's so fantastic because I'm still in touch with a number of these people, these deep connections. To my right was a California senator. And to my left, this is even more, this is like mind-blowing to me. Everyone knows I love superheroes. It was the voice of Optimus Prime.

Oh, wow. You were at that dinner. Yeah. Amazing.

It was being hosted hosted by one of the producers of X-Men.

It was just—

John really cultivated and curated a very spectacular event around things that I was interested in. And so you've hosted these dinners for years. It's the largest gathering of its kind. You have, what, Nobel laureates, Olympians, celebrities, Fortune 500 executives.

Oh yeah.

And so you are great because I've talked to you as a friend and you didn't grow up with you know, this with money or this great reputation or the incredible connections. And so you're a wonderful person, especially being a behavioral scientist. You know, you're always citing all these studies with me to talk about cultivating this positive peer group.

Yeah, it's— so first of all, thank you. And more importantly, thank you for coming that night. That was one of my favorite dinners because my childhood hero was Optimist's prime. And so I've hosted over 227 dinners, over 2,000 guests, 10 cities in 3 countries. And when people used to ask me, if you could have anyone as a guest, it was Peter Cullen, the voice of Optimus.

Yeah.

So what I think your listeners would really enjoy knowing is why it even started is basically what you pointed to. You know how everybody always says that you are like your 5 closest friends? It turns out that somebody, uh, these 2 guys, Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler, did a study. They were curious about the obesity epidemic, and they were curious if it spreads from person to person like a cold, or if it's just a percentage of the population like Alzheimer's. And what they found was startling. So, Jim, if you have a friend who's obese, your probability increases by 45%.

Wow.

But what's more interesting is that your friends who don't know that person have a 20% increased chance, and their friends have a 5% increased chance. And this is true for happiness, marriage and divorce rates, smoking habits, voting habits. Literally everything spreads through this superhuman organism known as our networks or communities.

Yeah.

And so I got very curious. If we can have so much of an impact on one another at distance, then I needed to figure out how to develop deep and meaningful relationships with the people who are most influential or important.

So even, and this works even if somebody is, somebody could be listening to this and they're an introvert or they don't like, they don't like networking, they could still create meaningful relationships.

And—

Oh yeah.

You talk, you know, I watched your TED Talk about the, not only creating meaningful relationships, it's the connections, but it's also having levels of trust. How do you build those trusted relationships?

Oh, for sure. So first of all, I think you point to something really important. Nobody likes networking. It's literally the worst. Researchers have found that your unconscious association to networking is needing to wash your hands because you are— you feel so dirty from it. But what we don't feel dirty from is making friends.

Yeah.

And so what we need to do is figure out what naturally causes people to become friends. Now, if you're introverted, my hunch is you still like having friends. You just might prefer to connect with fewer people at a time. You don't have to be hosting massive dinner parties or huge events. You could connect with people one or two at a time. And what's nice is that it's almost more like your superpower. The introverts that I know tend to be really good at creating deeper relationships.

Hmm.

Whereas the extroverts might have more of them. But it's not a contest. It's what provides your life value. So in the first stage, I really had to realize that just about everybody wants to connect with more people. And you might think, John, that sounds ridiculous. The influential people I know, they're probably too busy. Everybody's trying to get something from them. And I would agree that they might not want to connect with people who are just trying to use them. like you would feel with networking. But it's important to understand that, at least in America, in 1985, the average American had 3 friends besides family. By 2004, in less than a generation, we were down to 2. This is before social media. This is before any of that other stuff. It's mostly because people started moving away from their family and friends. either to go to school or for work and so on. Now, the real risk is that when you look at what causes human beings to live a long time, it's not like eating kale every day or meditating.

Right.

Those things are great for you, right? But the number 2 greatest predictor of human longevity is close social ties. And number 1 is social integration, meaning that you are part of a community. So if we want to optimize for longevity and quality of life, it's really important to understand what causes us to connect, what causes us to build trust quickly, because we might not always have 30 years to develop it over the long term, and what gives us a sense of belonging, that same belonging that is such an essential predictor for our well-being.

Hmm. And you could think about, I would imagine as a hunter-gatherer, it was important that we had those ties, you know, for our safety, for our own security.

It's interesting. We are absolutely not the strongest. We are not the fastest. What we are better at than every other species is working together. And when we are not in those communities where we have an opportunity to work together, We get really lonely and we get it. Our brain sends us a signal saying we're isolated, we're probably not safe, we should find people.

And this is an issue right now where people, we know for mental health, and we do a lot of content around that, people feel lonely and that loneliness is a real epidemic.

Yeah, so the first thing to realize is, especially right now, is that people, when they're very social, that tends to create more social bonds, right? Like, if you're very popular, people want to introduce you to people. When we're feeling lonely, we tend to feel like we're not deserving of connecting with others. And that's completely not true. It is at the base of being human, this need to connect and the willingness to connect. When we look at the times that our society faces the greatest challenges, you'll actually notice that for the most part, we're incredibly good at coming together and supporting one another.

Yeah.

And, and the weird thing is that at times of war, like the Blitzkrieg, where Germany was bombing London during World War II, yeah, everybody was worried that there'd be fighting at the shelters, but that never happened. We're really good at coming together.

And it's not just even a logical, uh, it's also biological. Yeah, we talk about, uh, dopamine and serotonin, endorphins, but especially oxytocin.

Yeah, so here's what's super interesting. I'm going to give you guys a few kind of crazy tips on— let's say you, you know people mildly and you want to build a significant level of trust, right? What not to do is to try to win over people with gifts. Right? That's what companies try to do. They give you swag bags at parties and you throw them out, or they invite you to expensive business dinners trying to impress you. But most people don't really enjoy that. What's weird is the exact opposite is true. It's called the IKEA effect, which means that you disproportionately care about your IKEA furniture because you had to assemble it.

Hmm.

So anything you put effort into, you actually care about disproportionately. So my objective isn't to win you over with a gift. The reason I invited Jim to come to my friend's house to cook dinner is because it was a shared activity that caused people to invest effort into one another, and that's what caused them to bond.

Hmm.

That's why Jim described the experience as, I'm still really close to those people all these years later, even though it may have only been an hour and a half of cooking together and an hour and a half of eating together. And that's pretty crazy that in a 3-hour period of time you could feel close enough that you would always answer an email or a phone call from a certain person.

Yeah.

Especially one that you had maybe nothing in common with beforehand. Uh, now, Jim, you kind of pointed to why this works, right? Often we discuss this chemical oxytocin. Now, it turns out that most people think that trust precedes vulnerability, but that's actually not true. It works through a process called vulnerability loops. So let's say, Jim, you and I were walking down the street and you heard me and I just say, oh my God, I'm so overwhelmed, right? I'm just so stressed. Now I've put out a signal of vulnerability. If you ignore that signal or make fun of it, trust will be reduced because I've put myself out there and you've shown me that I can't be safe. But if you say, John, I've been so stressed and I've had no contact with people for months, I know exactly how you feel. We have both now demonstrated vulnerability to the same level and have shown that we're safe with each other. Now, when we're doing a joint activity, those vulnerability loops are created very quickly, opened and closed over and over again. So if you are, you said chopping onions and making guac, and Peter Cullen is next to you, the voice of Optimus, and you say, Peter, I just need the— and Peter realizes that you need the knife and passes it to you, you've just opened and closed a vulnerability loop.

Hmm.

And so the biggest recommendation I can make is finding those activities where you can put in joint effort, because every time a vulnerability loop is open and closed, it's really likely that we release oxytocin and then care about each other more. So like the hot tip I like to give people is, forget meeting people for drinks, forget taking them out for expensive dinners, go on a hike with them.

Hmm.

Put effort into something together. Have a board games night and play as a team. You like art?

Great.

Go on a museum tour together, or do a painting class together, or just host people over to do watercolors, or bring in an instructor. Whatever it is, make it an activity. Because human beings, one, don't connect by networking. They connect over joint interests, activities, and culture.

Hmm.

So that means that if you want to connect with people, Go check out what meetups are taking place on different topics, or start your own. Look at your company and see, does your company provide budget for group activities or cultural events? It's amazing. Lots of companies will literally give you thousands of dollars for you to run a group about something that you actually care about. But realize that nothing I'm talking about even costs very much money. The dinners I host cost $100, $200 in food supplies.

Mm-hmm.

So trust is built through shared activities and effort, right? We create those vulnerability loops and trust is increased with each one. And if you want to connect with people, what we want to do is find a shared activity, interest, or culture. And whatever it is that you end up doing, there's a really cool section of the brain that we want to trigger. And have you ever discussed the SNVTA on your show before?

No, let's go there.

This is a super fun thing. So, uh, you know how you get invited to a lot of stuff? Like, I can't even imagine the number of events you get invited to. If I invite you to another conference and it's not a paid gig, it's just like, oh, come check out my conference, what are you thinking?

Yeah, I probably—

I want to spend time with my family, like whatever, anything but. And the reason is that it doesn't stand out. The more influential a person is, the more of the world that they've experienced on average. And so what we want to do is figure out how to trigger something called the SNVTA. It's the major novelty center of the brain. And it responds relative to how novel something is, and it actually entices us to explore and understand something. So if I said, come to a dinner, you'd say— if now I say, come to a dinner where you can't talk about what you do or give your last name, you're going to be cooking together, and I'm going to curate a bunch of fancy people there, you're like, huh, this sounds really different. that section of the brain activates and then actually entices you to explore and understand it. So if you want to connect with more influential people, yes, find something that is either surrounding culture, interests, or activities, and do it in a way where you invest effort, right? So that way you have that joint activity where we're building trust. But now make it novel. You want to do a hike? Great. Let's make it a solution hike where each person gets to bring one problem they've been struggling with, and by the end of the hike, we'll figure out a solution and we'll work together. You want to do a board games night? Great. Maybe each person needs to bring a potluck meal from their culture to make it more interesting, or each person brings a game and you vote on which one you play. You want to have a cocktail party? There's a woman in California who did this absolutely wonderful thing. She would do a wine and cheese event, but each person had to bring a 2-minute story about a single word. So it could be friendship, it could be creativity, but each person brought a story about what was important to them about that word. And then we got to discover People's lives. They weren't just Susie the accountant. It was Susie, the creative person who had this incredible life experience. So when you add— oh, sorry.

No, I love the novelty because otherwise people go in their own routine. It's always just like, so, you know, what do you do? And you go into this.

Oh yeah. Oh my God. You end up hearing the same elevator pitch over and over again. And so if you force people, it's kind of funny. People are always scared to put constraints on things or limitations, but it's actually in the constraints that creativity is fostered and new experiences are had. And so I'm a huge fan of constraints. You just have to pick the right ones to make things interesting.

But if you have a constraint on time, you have a constraint on budget, you have a constraint people, it forces you to come up with resourcefulness to be able to do that. And so the novelty is so important. We talk about a lot of that, even for brain training, that, you know, you grow, or neuroplasticity is novelty and nutrition and obviously rest. You're able to cultivate this amazing community because what people appreciate and they value things they help create.

Yeah, right.

And they're putting in the effort.

It's, it's pretty wild. The other thing I'd also really encourage is that most successful people don't get to spend their time with other successful people. They spend most of their time with their admins. And so if you can create a culture where you bring interesting people together, Others will go far out of their way for it. So like, I think we've been to TED at the same time. I'm not sure. Yeah, I go to TED, like, I barely listen to the talks. I can just hear them online if I want to. I go because I know there'll be people like you there. Yeah, people who are like industry leaders thinking about things in different ways. And that's what excites me. It's the curation. Now, I'll be honest, on day one, my dinners were not such an impressive group of people.

Good. And that, that, and that's good because people who are listening, like, how do I reach an Olympian and a Fortune 500 executive and, you know, all these, these celebrities? But it's, you know, it's, it's proof that, you know, even with the professional, everyone, everyone starts somewhere, that every, every, every champion was once a beginner. You know, by little, little becomes a lot.

It's, it's kind of funny. The first dinner I did was such a train wreck. But I actually think it worked better because the attendees, first of all, felt really involved and like they were making it work out.

Mm-hmm.

And then the second was, it was creating a series of vulnerability loops. Like I was just honest. I was like, this is the first time I'm trying this. I need your help to figure this out. And because I put myself out there, then they responded. With, uh, with their own vulnerability and saying, how about we do this? Or their ideas. And we figured it out together. So one of the first things I recommend is if you're an introvert, great, do it at the scale of 1 or 2 people, go for a hike or even a walk, but find something that you actually enjoy. Because if you don't enjoy it, then you're gonna wanna stop it after the first or second time.

Hmm.

The second is be vulnerable with the people that you invite and tell them, hey, I'm trying to figure out how to make this interesting. Do you have any suggestions? Who do you recommend I invite next time?

Hmm.

Because that's how I got a lot of my initial guests is people would recommend, oh, so-and-so from this TV show would love to do this. I didn't know anybody from TV shows when I started, but by like the 4th or 5th time I did it, then eventually people would come. And I was also relentless about inviting people. At any event I would go to that I met somebody even mildly interesting, I would invite them. And then I found something out that totally surprised me. Olympians and Nobel laureates and people like that are incredibly easy to find because often their email addresses are public. Hmm. All I would do is figure out which Nobel laureates and Olympians lived in the area. And so I just started inviting them. And if you're a retired athlete, there aren't that many— unless you were like a major superstar— there aren't many people trying to approach you anymore. So you can get a hold of phenomenally successful, phenomenally interesting people who aren't as high demand as like the hot recent Oscar winner, and they would love to meet you, especially if you're doing something novel that people can invest effort into and have fun together.

And yeah, the vulnerability that leads to trust. Yeah, that's amazing. Um, everyone, I encourage everybody to get a copy of John's new book. This is really a blueprint, if you will, for creating those meaningful, trusted, relationships. And it's one of those things, it's a reminder that if anyone feels like they're alone, you know, on this journey, we all need people to challenge us, to encourage us, to be kind to us, to cheerlead for us, to share ideas with us, you know. And if you haven't found that person, be that person for somebody else, you know, and invite them on this journey, even if it's one or two individuals, because you never know the ripple effects that has. And so I appreciate all the practical insights. And then this book, What would you say is the big takeaway for, uh, for your— for people who are gonna go and get their copy?

Uh, that you can literally redefine any aspect of your life with the people you connect with. Yeah. And I frankly was broke, overweight, and had no idea what I wanted to do with my career. And then as I started surrounding myself with people who were really fit, I started getting in shape.

Yeah.

And with business leaders like you, Jim, I started seeing, okay, maybe there's opportunities for me to do something with the knowledge and expertise that I've developed. And suddenly I have a much more interesting career. And I'll be honest, I'm always trying to figure out what I'm going to be when I grow up, but I'm fortunate enough that I can get answers from top experts.

Yeah.

Which makes a world of difference.

And I could appreciate that.

This is I love the book because it has so many science references and I love geeking out about that. But there's also, there's a science to connecting, but there's also surely an art also as well. So thank you for sharing that. How do people stay in touch or how do people get the book?

Oh, so the book is available everywhere. So Amazon, Barnes& Noble, the indie bookshops.

Yes, please.

And support your local independent bookshops. And then getting a hold of me, I'm super easy because I'm like the human connection person. So I'm literally on every platform as Jon Levy TLB. That's J-O-N L-E-V-Y, T like Thomas, L like lion, B like boy. And that's my website. And I've actually also put up a bunch of games on my website under the book section for you if you want to play them with your friends to get to know them better and have some fun together.

And let's offer everyone a quick challenge. I challenge everybody, first of all, to watch the full interview here on YouTube. For iTunes and Spotify, we keep it to 20 minutes or less, but we'll pull the full unedited version on YouTube. So make sure you watch it there, as well as get the book. But take a screenshot wherever you're consuming this and tag John, tag myself when you post it. So we get to see it. I'll repost some of my favorites. And what's one thing we want to ask them to do, John, while they're posting? Do you want them to list something?

So I would tag a friend that they want to connect with and catch up with. Use it as a way to say, hey, you're somebody who I think is awesome, and let's find a way to be in touch and hang out.

I like that a lot.

So make sure you tag your +1 on there, somebody to remind them That you want to go deeper with them, that you miss them, and then want to spend some time. And I'll actually gift a copy of You're Invited to one person just as a thank you for engaging and playing this game along with us.

Oh, that's super generous. Yeah.

John, thank you so much for being on our show and for sharing this. This is like very important. Again, while we recommend eating the best brain foods ever and optimizing your sleep, and managing your stress and reading every single day, one of the most important things you can do for your learning in your life is to engage with other individuals and to have that connection, those deep meaningful connections. If your life is worth living, it's worth remembering, and it's also worth curating these magical moments that we share. And I've been fortunate to have many with you and look forward to many more.

Me too. Thanks for having me on. Hi, Kwik Brain.

It's your brain coach. I want to thank you so much for watching this video. 3 things to do. Number 1, make sure you share this because when you teach something, you get to learn it twice. Update your learning so you can update other people's learning as well. Number 2, make sure you subscribe to this channel so you don't miss a thing because if you Miss a video, you miss a lot. And finally, make sure you hit that bell so you're notified and you find out when we put out the latest and the greatest. One extra thing: if you want really close attention, then text me. Here is my phone number: 310-299-9362. Did you remember that number? 310-299-9362. 919-9362. Shoot me a text and we'll stay in touch. Ask me your burning question, and I wish your days be full of lots of life, lots of love, lots of laughter, and always lots of learning. I'll see you in our next video.

Bye.