How to Overcome Your Social Media Addiction! 😵‍💫 Dr. Ben Rein

Despite its mission of promoting social connection and togetherness, social media sites have somewhat become a breeding ground for everything from hostility to misinformation.

We are not seeing facial expressions, we are not hearing vocal tone, we are not processing body language. All of that substance is stripped away.

How can we approach understanding and changing this negative behavior through neuroscience and the brain?

There's a very thin line between Showing people what they want to see and showing people what their brain wants to see.

What makes social media so addictive?

Those people show changes in the brain that are reminiscent or quite similar to the brain changes in, like, drug addiction.

People feel more free to behave in a more mean way online.

If I'm speaking to a group of friends or a group of strangers, even, even if one of them disagrees with me, the likelihood that they will speak up and say, you know, I really don't like you and I don't like what you're saying, it's very, very low.

How does this addiction impact our cognitive health?

They're generally pretty clearly showing that people who take time off of social media feel better.

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I am your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Together, we are going to be discussing the neurobiology of social interactions and understand the science behind why it's easy for people to behave negatively online, how social media has changed our brain development, and what we can do to make the digital world a more empathetic space. Our guest today is Dr. Ben Rein. He is a neuroscientist whose groundbreaking research on the neurobiology of social behavior has earned him recognition from the NIH, the Society for Neuroscience, and many others. Dr. Ben has published 19 papers in peer-reviewed scientific journals, uncovering information about neuroscience of empathy, the genetic basis of autism spectrum disorder, and how connections between brain cells regulate social behaviors. He's also the Chief Science Officer of the Mind Science Foundation and founder of the Aspiring Scientists Coalition, helping guide the next generation of scientists around the globe. Welcome to the show, Dr. Ben.

Thank you so much for having me, Jim. It's great to be here.

So we connected on social media. So it's very, very meta. One of the upsides of social media, you always come up rather early on my feed because I really love your content. So thank you. People don't realize how much work and effort goes on behind the scenes to produce that. So our team, we're really excited to have you and much of our community also as well. Before we get into social media, And empathy. I'd love just to kind of start out maybe 3 things. If we're talking about the brain, which our audience obviously loves, maybe we could start out with 3 things that are good for your brain, 3 things that maybe people should mitigate or reduce that could be harmful for the brain. And I'm sure some of them might sound fundamental, but I just want to remind everyone who's listening that it's the fundamentals that are really going to be the game changers.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that I'm not going to say anything that you haven't heard before. Um, number one on my list always is sleep. Always, always. Um, everybody can feel the difference between a good night's sleep and a bad night's sleep. And, but the, the— so obviously there's incentive to, you know, try to get a good night's sleep every night, but there's also a, a major difference between a lifestyle in that involves poor sleep habits and a lifestyle that includes Great sleep habits and you kind of over time may lose the awareness of the quality of your sleep if you're not practicing good sleep hygiene in any, in many regards. You know, you may kind of sink into a pit where you're just tired all the time and you don't realize like, oh, you know, you can't really feel that difference between 8 hours and 6 hours anymore. So I, I always like, personally, this is my number one thing. I always aim for 8 hours of sleep. I have a bed that tracks my sleep. I go to bed at the same time every night. I use blackout curtains. I try to avoid screens a few hours before bed. I exercise during the day to hopefully improve my sleep quality at night. I try to avoid doing things outside of sleeping in my bed. So I try to avoid scrolling my phone, watching TV. In college, I tried to avoid doing homework in bed, you know, just reserving my bed space for sleep and sleep only. And that, I mean, all those things combined have turned into, you know, a really regimented sleep approach for me. And I can totally feel the difference between even like 7.5 hours and 8 hours, which is kind of, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that every day when I get good sleep, I feel incredible and I, and I never really have to worry about my alertness. The downside is that those days when I don't get the good sleep, I'm like, oh my gosh, I really kind of can feel the difference here. And I wake up after a bad night of sleep with anxiety and I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a rough day. But I mean, sleep pretty much affects everything, you know, your mood, your athleticism, like pretty much anything you're approaching in your daily life, your cognition, you will feel the difference with a better night's sleep. So always start there. Number 2, I would say exercise. Very, you know, also fundamental. I think the more you can exercise, the better you will feel for a variety of reasons. Of course, exercise has been linked in animal models like mice and rats to neurogenesis, the birth of new brain cells, and synaptogenesis, the birth of new synapses, connections between brain cells. And of course, you know, similarly, most people can feel the difference between the days when they exercise and the days when they don't. And this morning I didn't have time to, you know, even just walk on the treadmill or lift some weights, and I can feel the difference. I wish I had, but Here we are, you know, and so that's another thing where do what you can, you know, and speaking to the audience and everyone listening, you know, if you're, if you want to harness the benefits of exercise, then I say try to level up. If you're currently walking 2,000 steps a day, maybe try taking that to 5,000 steps a day. You know, if you're, if you're jogging a mile, maybe, I don't know, add a little something else, jog a little bit longer, or maybe add some, some core workout or something like that. There's always probably room to improve your alertness and, you know, maybe the quality of your sleep and all sorts of off-target things by engaging in a little bit more exercise. And then number 3, I think I have to say connection, you know, social connection. It's, this is growing more and more visible in the public discussion. I think that social interaction is important for you. But, you know, especially with the way the world is changing and the way things are going, you know, the statistics show that people are more isolated than ever. People are very lonely. People have fewer friends than they ever have had in history. There are many reasons why people are less connected, but it's fundamental. It's just like sleep, you know, food, you know, it's something that we need as humans. We are a social species and our brains reward us for connection. and punish us for isolation. So take advantage of that whenever you can. And I think that that may segue us naturally into our discussion about how does social media fit into that?

Yeah, because, you know, I was mentioning the second part in terms of what are the 3 things that can negatively affect the brain. It would just— you could look at the opposite, right? Not getting good sleep, being sedentary and not moving, isolation. You know, loneliness is a real epidemic. when we talk about mental health. And so, yeah, let's talk about the digital era. Now, I'm in my 50s. I've been on social media almost 2 decades, but I had what I feel like was granted this gift where I didn't have a cell phone growing up or tablets. Growing up in a digital era, has it changed the brain development process in contrast to people who grew up without? digital devices, smartphones, without social media? Have you seen a distinction at all?

I don't think that the research is quite there to compare like intergenerationally, but there are many things that we could certainly point at that, you know, we could kind of wave our hands around and say maybe this would be something that changes the way people act, the way people's brains function. You know, I think I'm personally quite interested in, like you said, you didn't grow up with a phone. You know, I'm in sort of the era where I was maybe one of the like first generations to get a phone in like my teen years. And it wasn't the modern phones. You know, I had like a flip phone. It was like a Virgin Mobile and it was completely different. And now you see really young kids using iPads and, you know, the, they have all sorts of tools at their disposal, the digital tools. That capture their attention and the forms of media that they're paying attention to are quite different. You know, I used to watch like Hey Arnold and stuff like that, and now it's like, what is it, like Cocomelon or something like that? And social media, the clips are very short. There's certainly discussion to be had around attention development. Also, of course, the social nature of it. You know, I don't know what it's like to be a middle schooler or a high schooler in today's world. But I would imagine that the virtual environments take up a lot of space. You know, they, we spend a lot of, people spend a lot of time there on average. I would imagine young people spend maybe the most time there. And I wonder about, you know, do people, like, I remember growing up, I used to have my friends come over my house and we would play PlayStation and we would sit together with 2 controllers wired. to the PlayStation and we would play on the same screen and it would be split screen and we'd be talking while we played. You know, now it's, it's virtual. You can do, you know, PlayStation Live or Xbox Live or whatever and play virtually. And, you know, what happens when you strip some of the kind of substance away from those interactions and you're not sitting beside each other, but you're rather just hearing each other's voices in a microphone? Um, you know, do people spend, do they FaceTime quickly or text instead of getting together after school, you know, or? I, I don't know what it's like, and I would imagine that without as much face-to-face contact, there may be some differences in the way people develop social behaviors because that those early stages of life, the social experience that you have is, is quite important for shaping your sort of long-term social behavior.

Now, you know, you recently released a scientific paper with one of your students on social media and empathy. Maybe you could share some of your highlights, some of the findings there. Maybe you could tell us what is happening to our brain when someone is consuming social media, especially this, and I'm sure a lot of our audience has seen these in the comments, but where, why people feel more free to behave in a more, let's just say, a more mean way online. What's going on there and how's it related to social media and empathy?

Yeah. So back in like the '80s, when computers first started becoming popular, um, there were some early studies that found that subjects in research studies, when interacting with others online in virtual settings through computers, they, they interacted strangely. They became disinhibited and they would start swearing and calling each other names and doing weird things. And I think, you know, fast forward 40 years, here we are. with this modern social media environment that's pretty toxic. And, you know, some people know that more than others. Jim, I'm sure you've seen this. I've personally experienced this. You post something on the internet and when it gets enough views, you start to discover that there are pockets of the internet that disagree quite passionately and they want you to know it. And they start posting comments that are overly hostile. You know, like there's a difference between, hey, I disagree with your idea and like, I hate you and I hate what you represent. And, you know, and that comes through a lot. And it's not just me, it's not just you, it's all across the internet. I mean, I challenge anybody listening to, if you are on X or Instagram or whatever, if you see a post that's really popular and you click on the comments or you click on the replies and you just scroll for 1 or 2 screens, I guarantee you'll see some hostility, guarantee it. And I think that's kind of not representative of how we interact face-to-face. You know, if I speak If I'm speaking to a group of friends, you know, or a group of strangers, even the likelihood that even if one of them disagrees with me, the likelihood that they will speak up and say, you know, I really don't like you and I don't like what you're saying, it's very, very low. And so I think that there are, of course, many factors at play there. Certainly one of them is like the physical safety that virtual environments offer. You know, if the stranger in my group says something really mean, I might get angry and start physically threatening them. I wouldn't, but, you know, others might. And so there's a threat of your safety coming into question if you are critical in person, and that's nonexistent online. But I think that there's something even more fundamental happening, which is, as you've mentioned, something happening to our empathy circuitry in our brain. And so I propose in this paper, I call it the virtual disengagement hypothesis. And what that's supposed to indicate is that in virtual environments, the brain areas that regulate empathy, theoretically disengage. And I think that this happens because— so empathy is, is when you take on someone else's emotions. You either understand their emotions or you share their emotions. So for example, if you see someone in pain, you might start to feel a sense of like, oof, like, get me away from this, you know, this is bad. I don't like the way this feels to see someone in pain, you know. If any— if you've ever seen like a gruesome football injury, something like that, it's like, oh, that cringy feeling. You know, that's empathy. And the way that we arrive at empathy is through detecting and processing other people's social cues. There are studies showing that hearing vocal noises like crying or laughing activates certain brain areas that are involved with empathy, like the anterior cingulate cortex and the insula, 2 core areas involved in empathy. When we process facial expressions, those areas come online again. But when we interact with people online, like on X or Instagram or whatever it is, we're not always, especially in text-based interactions, we are not seeing facial expressions. We are not hearing vocal tone. We are not processing body language. All of that substance is stripped away. And so what you're left with is this kind of hollow text on a screen. And the only humanity to it is represented by a small avatar picture and a handle, which, you know, could be your name, it could be anything. And I— there's just no reason to believe that the human brain would engage its empathy circuits for this type of representation of social information. And so I think what happens is, since those empathy circuits don't engage, we do not put ourselves in the perspective of what that other person is feeling. You know, if someone puts a tweet up, I'm in pain, you're not, you're not going to feel that same cringy sense of discomfort just from reading that. But if you see that person step on a tack and their face contorts and you can see the pain in their face, that's completely different. You will feel their pain. If you, if you, you know, if they shriek in agony, you will feel their pain. But if they just say it and it's just text, you won't. And so that disengagement of, of both our empathy circuitry and consequently our emotions, I think that funnels us into a place where we just don't care when we interact online. We just We do not care about people, the people around us, air quotes, around us as much as we would if they were actually around us. And so we're much more inclined to hostility because when you don't feel someone's emotions, there is nothing holding you back from saying something mean because if you hurt them, you do not have to take part in their pain and their suffering that you've caused. You are emotionally free. And I think that's a very sort of dangerous dynamic, because the other unfortunate part of this is that the recipient of those attacks still feel the full force. You know, there's people, when they're hurt in virtual environments— there's research for this as well— they still feel bad. You know, social pain still hurts, even if it's a person on a screen who doesn't want to throw the ball to you in a virtual game of catch. You know, these, these virtual studies have shown that Social pain still hurts online. And, you know, and there's of course plenty of evidence that adolescents who are bullied are at higher risk of suicidality, things like that. You know, there's, there are real consequences. And so, um, it's like the, there's some like tilt to it, right? Like the people on the receiving end still bear the weight, but those on the delivering end are kind of emotionally detached.

Yeah. Cyberbullying, unfortunately it's so It's, it's so rampant and so common now. What makes social media so addictive, if that's the proper word? And how does this addiction impact our, our cognitive health, if it does?

Yeah, last I checked, social media addiction was not like a recognized, like, psychiatric diagnosis, but it was beginning to be recognized under the umbrella of, like, gaming use disorders. Um, and, you know, there's a sort of parallel thing going on there, but, but there is certainly evidence that, um, those who do would be classified as like social media use disorder, basically addicted to social media, using it. Then the diagnostic criteria there would be using it so much that it's interfering with your life and getting in the way of you like living a normal life and making you unhappy. Those people show changes in the brain that are reminiscent or quite similar to the brain changes in like drug addiction.

Hmm.

And, and what it really involves is reduced volume of prefrontal cortical areas. So the prefrontal cortex is this really kind of like executive director of the brain, right? It controls— it can help suppress emotions and control emotional reactions. You know, direct thoughtful action. And so in drug addiction, when you're thinking, okay, hey, I'm— I know it's maybe not a good idea for me to skip class and go do this drug right now. Normally your prefrontal cortex might say, that's, that's a bad idea, let's do this instead, you know. But with reduced prefrontal cortex volume and strength, um, and by volume I mean size, you know, those, those urges become more difficult to suppress. And so the, the same brain changes are seen in In social media addiction. But I think the reason why this is even an issue is because, you know, there's a big question to be answered. You alluded to it in the beginning about like social media connects us, but it also kind of separates us. But the reality is that the social nature of social media is real. You know, we go on social media and it's, we are seeing social information. We may not be engaging with each other in a way that's authentic and lifelike, but we are seeing, you know, social cues. And, um, that is powerful for the human brain. The human brain cares a lot about social information. And especially when you're seeing, you know, videos of people showing their wealth or, um, videos of love interests showing, or maybe pictures of love interests showing their physique, you know, things like this, they provide— it provides a lot of social reward and social information that can be very valuable and worth pursuing for the human brain. And so I think that, um, you know, there are certain people who are more predisposed to falling into an addiction to social media, just like there are maybe certain people who are more predisposed to shopping addiction, you know, online shopping, or gaming use disorder like I mentioned, or gambling. You know, everyone's brain is a bit different. Of course, there are reasons why not everybody is addicted to social media and not everybody is addicted to gambling, but we have certain predispositions. And so some people may be selectively kind of captured by that, but I'm not— I couldn't tell you right now how prominent that is.

Are there any other signs people could look for, for themselves or the people around them, that their brain is being negatively affected by social media? And then I guess part 2 is how can we counteract these effects? You see people posting about a digital or dopamine detox or social media detox, take a day off or a week off. Are there any benefits in your opinion?

If you notice that you are using this, you know, using social media in a way that's unhealthy, you know, I think that there's a general awareness there that you can tell. I actually don't want to be on social media right now. I'd really love to get off the couch or get out of bed and do that other thing, but I just kind of can't. You know, I think if you feel you can sense that it's it's getting in the way of your life, that's a bad sign. And you know, I know they have these apps and things like that where you can like lock your phone to not use it, but. Those may be helpful for certain people, but I know that to answer your second question, there are many studies there where they're sort of clinical trials have been done. Um, although a clinical trial is usually testing like the efficacy of a drug, in this case they tested the efficacy or the outcome of taking time off of social media. Many studies have done this, and from what I've seen, they're generally pretty clear, pretty clearly showing that people who take time off of social media feel better. you know, their depression scores go in the right direction, their anxiety scores go in the right direction. You know, they may sleep better. You know, they, they just feel better. And so, you know, there, there are a few different kind of like protocols from those studies. Some of them were like no phone use at all. What I think is a more reasonable and doable approach is to just try to limit your, your screen time, your exposure to certain apps specifically. You know, I mean, texting, things like that, you know, if you need to text for communication purposes, but you can, you could put a timer on and, you know, make sure you only spend, I don't know, 5, 10 minutes a day on social media. Like sometimes they, these studies will have them like maximum 5 minutes per app, per, you know, Instagram, TikTok, X, whatever. And I don't know in truth if the people in those studies are like hitting that 5 minutes every day just trying to get like their little Like dose of social media. But I think that in the long term, you know, just being conscious of how much you're using the apps and you could try setting a timer and, you know, when the buzzer goes off, you put the phone away, you close the app, but just being aware of your use and monitoring it, I think is a great step in the right direction. And over time, you'll sort of strengthen that cognitive muscle of recognizing, oh wait, you know, I've probably been doing this for a bit too long. Or, you know, turn on a timer when you use social media. And even if you don't monitor it, you might think you're scrolling for 10 minutes and then check your timer and it's been 45 minutes. And that might be a wake-up call too. So I think just being conscious of how we're spending our time is a simple and perhaps effective way to, you know, reduce the potentially negative side effects of social media use.

Yeah, I would say that could extend in so many areas beyond social media, just the self-awareness. There's that time distortion when we don't realize we've binge-watched, you know, our favorite show. It just keeps on going. It's really designed that way.

Yeah.

And when we're talking about these algorithms, social media platforms, they use various algorithms that can shape our thinking and beliefs, right? Whatever you're engaged with, they'll show you more of that content. But it's very, it could be very one-dimensional, right? Maybe, can you talk about any kind of short or long-term implications of this on having the opposite cognitive diversity, independent thought? Are you tired and frustrated of struggling with forgetfulness and longing for greater mental retention and clarity? I have a special invitation for you to watch my free 3-part memory power video training where you'll discover the secrets to effortlessly recall crucial information, details, experiences, remembering what you read, giving a speech without notes, and remembering names, transforming you into an exceptional mental achiever. You'll also discover 10 powerful ingredients to supercharge your So don't miss out on this life-changing opportunity. Simply click the button or go to jimkwik.com/power.

Going back to what you said of, you know, the, the algorithms will show you more of what you're interested in. Um, that's something that concerns me a bit because on the surface it's, it's a great thing, right? Like you're interested in brain health. One of your videos, Jim, pops up and next thing you know, someone's learning about brain health. That's amazing. But on the other side of it, you know, there is a lot of stuff on social media that is purposely intended to just capture attention. You know, human attention is designed biologically in a way to pay extra close attention to certain things that maybe we don't want to see, but are valuable to see in evolutionary context. And so what I mean by that is the classic saying of like, you can't look away from a car wreck, right? You don't want to be looking at something violent and dangerous and horrific, but your brain wants you so badly to pay attention because you might learn something that could potentially save your life down the road. You know, if someone's being attacked by a bear, you don't want to watch, but by watching, you might save your own life down the road. And so the brain wants to pay attention to these things. And so what, what may end up happening is, and what is happening in my opinion, people go on social media, they end up watching a video of, you know, a bar fight or a car wreck or You know, 2 opposing political, uh, voices really getting into it aggressively. And, and next thing you know, your feed is populated with more content that, that is violent and more content that is divisive and, and polarized and hostile. And it's the, it's the brain's natural impulse. And the apps presumably don't care because their goal is to keep your attention on the app. And, you know, next thing you know, people are spending more time watching videos that are really quite uncomfortable to watch, and they really don't put you in a great psychological headspace. And, you know, that's something I have personally noticed just very anecdotally in my own use. And so I've toned back my social media use a lot. You know, I think there's a very thin line between showing people what they want to see and showing people what their brain wants to see. And, uh, you know, I think You are your brain. Everyone is their brain. And so you have control over your attention. And I think it's important and valuable to harness it and guide it in a direction that is productive.

Right. Because whatever, again, people are engaging with, they never get to— they get more of that and they don't see an opposing point of view. You know, you're known as someone, for those people who follow you, which many do, And I suggest people do. You're known as a person who really gives out the real information, right? You debunk a lot of misinformation. I think our listeners and our viewers would really find it interesting. Any suggestions you have, because most of them probably don't have your scientific acumen, but how they can help vet information and debunk the plethora of— information online that could also be harmful for them also, especially when they're scrolling on social media. They see something and they just see a headline and they just— it just informs them, but they don't go any deeper than that. What would you say to the average person who's listening that wants to take more responsibility and agency and be well-informed also and not be quick to accept You know, the person they see that pops onto their, on their phone.

Yeah. I mean, on a broad blanket level, you should always seek to validate any information at a secondary level. You know, if someone says something on your feed, it's compelling, it seems to be true, you know, a quick Google search can validate, either confirm or deny most claims. But, and I always encourage that, you know, and I do that too, because you hear something, you're like, oh my gosh, like this TV show just got renewed.

Great.

I can't wait to see it. And then you check on Google and it's Like, no, this is a rumor. You know, it happens all the time. And so it's just, it's easy enough to double-check. That becomes much more difficult in the context of scientific information. You know, if someone's talking about the brain, it's not as easy to just get a clear answer from Google. Sometimes you have to go to the scientific literature, which unfortunately is not accessible and not really easy to interpret. There are like some developing AI tools now that can kind of summarize the literature and give you an answer. And I hope that those continue to grow and be used. But, you know, first things first, you can kind of check who you're listening to and is this person qualified to talk about this topic? You know, what even more, sometimes that's even difficult to kind of assess who someone is and what their credentials are. Even easier, what are their sources? You know, is this person citing their sources as they're talking? Or are they just saying things? You know, if they are citing sources, what are those sources? You know, for me, when I make my videos, I always show the peer-reviewed papers behind me that I'm talking about, that I'm sourcing my information for. And, you know, I think all people sharing educational content should do that. But, you know, sometimes they're citing a Reddit post or something like that, or like a blog post on a random website. And, you know, that's not a high-quality source of information sometimes. So, you know, the, the other thing about this is more and more people are getting their information online, and it's also very easy to forget where you learn something. You know, you're scrolling and you take in some information, and then a week later you're talking to someone and you're like, I heard about this, and you tell them. And then next thing you know, you may have just propagated some complete myth or misinformation or rumor, um, as if it were true. 'Cause you, how really, how are you supposed to remember that you saw this in that particular video on Instagram or whatever? So, you know, in the moment, there's this, there's this period where you can potentially filter information before it enters your brain and becomes fact. And I always encourage you to take the extra second and just validate that. Because, you know, otherwise it could certainly lead you down the wrong path.

Looking ahead, do you have any thoughts on the future of the relationship between social media and the brain or cognitive health? You know, as if you were to extrapolate you to go forward, Um, and any, any insights or thoughts in terms of how it'll evolve or change?

Yeah, I, I can't help but think that, um, in the long term, phones are going away. You know, I, I think about you go into a public area, um, especially like ideal place to see this is like a line. Like in, let's say you're in line at Disney and you're waiting for a ride. Everyone's just standing there, right? You look around, everybody's got their neck craned. They're looking down at their phone. Not, not everybody, but truly probably 50 to 75% of people. People. I think that will probably change. I think we'll end up more with like, you know, eyeglasses or things like that. You know, maybe, hopefully not, I don't want this, but like brain implants where you can swipe on social media and stuff. But I think that things are going to change and those attention-grabbing sources like social media are going to become more and more accessible where You know, you could be driving your car and you have your Instagram feed on the left side of your screen and you're swiping videos while you're driving and stuff like that. Of course, this is only a prediction. I have no idea. I don't really want things to go this way, but I think that we're just going to be increasingly kind of pummeled by distractors, things that can just slurp up our attention away from the real world. And, you know, I think we need to be very cautious and deliberate about the way we spend that attention. Because I mean, at the end of the day, this social media, social media is not going away. It is a very legitimate source of information and news. And, you know, as technology evolves, these platforms will want to continue absorbing attention and they will, you know, I don't see that changing or going away. So I don't see it getting better. Like I don't see a 10-year change from now that You know, Instagram is no longer the thing. And instead we have an app that like is educational and everybody's learning all the time. I don't see that happening. I think it's going to— our, our, the natural, the nature of social media to drive us into like short, crisp, edu— or short, crisp, engaging, compelling, attention-grabbing is going to deepen. And the longer form educational stuff is going to become more and more of its own separate thing that, that is less popular. So, but I hope that, you know, educational stuff sticks around.

You know, this podcast at its core is all about learning. Maybe to end this episode, I'm just personally curious, is there— maybe you could share one thing that you are currently learning or studying that has you particularly excited? Is there something that's on your learning list, something you're dedicating time To, uh, that interests you currently?

This is kind of a funny answer, um, but stretching.

Stretching.

Stretching.

Um, tell me more.

Yeah, like, I'm sure you'd expect me to be like, well, I'm learning about the, like, how dopamine and serotonin interact with nucleus accumbens. No, no, it's stretching. Um, I don't know, I've, I've always suffered from, like, tense muscles, and I've recently started stretching more, and I'm just like, I'm learning about stretching. Like I'm learning that I feel better. It's kind of like exercise or sleep. I feel better after I stretch. And, um, I'm also learning, like, I prefer certain stretches, like certain stretches will really open up certain muscles for me that I feel much better, uh, after doing. And while that may not be, you know, learning in the typical sense of like reading and studying, Yeah. Um, I am learning a lot and it's, It's interesting because it's also, it's nice because it's one of those things that as I learn, I feel my health improving. And that's pretty, pretty rare to, you know, open and unravel something like that in life. So I'm enjoying it.

Yeah. I mean, I love to talk to you online if you have a process, like an explicit process for when you do learn a new subject or skill. I'm always curious, you know, there's a science to it and almost also an art to it also as well.

I've got a fun one for that. Um, I don't know if this will work for all people. Fun fact, um, or maybe not so fun fact, I have narcolepsy. So I— it's a sleep condition for those who aren't aware where you— it's the one where you fall asleep really quickly. Luckily that part doesn't happen to me. I just suffer from extreme sleepiness, which is how I got into my sleep regimen I described at the beginning of the episode. But, um, with that, I spend more time than the average person dreaming in REM sleep. And so All throughout college, what I would do is I would study for my tests right before bed, like the hour before bed, I would cram. And then I would wake up in the morning and I would just remember everything. Like I would just know the information. I would go to class, take the exam, and I would ace it. And, you know, I, I don't know if that's something that the average person can do. Of course, memory consolidation occurs during sleep. Um, maybe I have some sort of advantage with that, with having more REM sleep than The average person, but I had some, some fun dream experiences where, like, there was one where I remember having a dream where I was in a bar with my friends, just hanging out. And this was, you know, I'd studied and then fallen asleep. And in the dream, I'm, I'm hanging out at the bar and there is like an arcade game in the corner. And I remember I'm, you know, holding a beer and I go sit down and I start playing the arcade game and it's literally flashcards. It's like, whatever it was, it was my exam content, the, the information I had studied. And I was sitting there just drinking a beer, answering the questions and getting points in this game. And it would like spit out quarters or something. And then I remember waking up and being like, I was literally just studying in my dream. And like, I was like, my brain was coming up with quiz questions. I was answering, like there was an active studying process. And I woke up like knowing the information as like incredibly, and I did well on the exam. And, um, you know, again, I don't know if this is how the average person's dreaming experience is. I have a very intimate relationship with the dream world because of how much time I spend there. But, um, yeah, that might be a, that might be a useful tip that try, try studying or learning something right before bed.

I love it. Dr. Ben Rein, um, how can people stay in touch with you? How can they go deeper? Uh, stay connected?

Yeah, so I'm on social media at Dr. Brain, B-R-E-I-N, my name. Um, and then you, I also have a website that just, again, my name, but this time at benrein.com. R-E-I-N. I have lots of stuff on there. I have resources for students in science. I have a whole list of scientific papers that I've made videos on. So if you want to learn about science and you don't want to read a ton of papers, you know, there's 60-second video summaries that link to my social media pages. And you can also, you know, contact me directly through there, all sorts of stuff. But yeah, I appreciate you having me on, Jim, and anybody's interested in learning more.

Yeah, I recommend everyone stay in touch with Dr. Ben. We'll put all the links to his website, to his social media, as we always do in the show notes at jimkwik.com/notes. And as always, you could find more useful ways of fueling your brain's potential on our YouTube where we put the extended version. And this is definitely when extended beyond the 20 minutes. 20 minutes will be on the audio on Spotify and And iTunes, but YouTube, please join us there where you'll be part of 1.8 million subscribers and get to see the extended version of this episode. Make sure you hit the subscribe button, leave a comment. I read all of them under the episode. Let us know what you thought. And until our next episode, this is your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Until next time, be limitless.