Kwik Brain 110: Overcoming Math Anxiety with Danica McKellar

Welcome back, Kwik Brain. So here's your question. People ask about this a lot in our private Facebook group. How do you overcome math anxiety to the point where you could improve your finances? Because they go hand in hand. When we're thinking about credit card statements and interest rate and refinancing this or your 401, all of these things, even people playing the lottery, they don't know like the math behind like winning the lottery. And so I'm excited to have this conversation around math anxiety, the fear of numbers, And talking about things you could do to mitigate that so that way you could actually boost your financial and conquer your finances, if you will. And I'm excited to have back in the studio here, we're still here, Danica McKellar. And she, as you know, is the author of numerous books on math and some of my favorite math books ever.

Thank you.

New York Times bestselling author. Thanks for coming.

My pleasure. Yeah, and I've loved writing math books. It's been such an interesting addition to my acting career. Of course, I know you're wearing your shirt right now that says Wonder on it for The Wonder Years. I appreciate that. And then Hallmark Channel movies now. Basically, if you turn on Hallmark Channel, you'll see me during the day at some point.

I can attest to this.

Yeah, they rerun my movies all the time, and I do new ones all the time. And yeah, I love working on that channel. But yeah, it's been— I've got this great, like, dual career. And I love that we're talking today about math and money and finances because that is one of the most practical reasons to get good at math, or at least to be comfortable with math.

Right.

What I say, I do speaking engagements quite often, and one of the things I always say is, look, if you are a child who avoids, you know, and is confused by math, then you're going to keep avoiding numbers as an adult. And numbers run the world.

I mean, it is like the second language everyone should speak, right?

It is, because here's the thing. Can you get through life without knowing much about math? You can. I mean, it's a little easier than trying to get through life without being able to read. But here's the thing. If you don't— if you're not familiar with numbers, you're not comfortable with numbers and how percents work and all those kinds of things, there are many institutions that would love to take advantage of that, whether it's any contract you get into, your credit card statements, mortgage, whatever. These things, you know, someone says, oh, well, let's refinance your house. You know, we'll get you at a lower rate, but then they increase the amount of the loan. Like that kind of tricky stuff, that'll happen to you left and right. And they are taking full advantage of the fact that you would rather ignore the numbers and avoid it and move on to the next thing rather than deal with it. And where does that come from? It's math phobia that starts at a young age.

Yeah.

I mean, that's why I write these books for young kids, because I want them to never have a moment of remembering During any time in their life when math was scary. Starting with Good Night Numbers, this is a sweet bedtime book. You got 10 magic butterflies. This is a fantasy land where the kids learn how to make 10 from 2 numbers, 9 and 1, 8 and 2, you name it. They're learning math in the context of fun, real-world circumstances that don't feel scary at all. I spoke at a school, a middle school, gosh, it was probably 10 years ago now, before I'd written the young books. I was just— I'd written Math Doesn't Suck and then Kiss My Math. So middle school math, percents, decimals, things like that. And I remember getting in front of these kids and they were looking at me. It was 50% below the poverty line and they were looking at me like, who is this woman? What is she going to tell us that we're going to care about? And I started by saying, hey, how many of you guys have ever wanted to maybe start your own business? A bunch of them raised their hands. Yeah, well, what kind of business would you like to start? Oh, toys, clothes, shoes, whatever, bubble gum. Well, guess what's going to keep those doors open?

Money.

math. And guess what's gonna happen if you don't learn your math? You're gonna get ripped off. You're gonna get— these are your 2 choices: get good at math or get ripped off. And let me tell you something, they all listened because this affects everybody. We all can get ripped off easily, and the worst part is we don't even know it.

Yeah.

We don't even know we're getting ripped off. So you know what? I want to do whatever I can to make sure people are not afraid of math. Does everyone have to become a math lover like I am? No, of course not. But I want every kid growing up to say, you know what though? But I can do it. I can totally do it, though. It's not my favorite thing, but I got this. And that's really my goal. So, and any adults listening, it's not too late for you.

Really?

I promise.

Because I think some people listening have such a fear around numbers.

It is not too late. Percents and fractions and decimals, these are basic things that are so good to know. I do teach them in Math Doesn't Suck. There are plenty of other places you can learn about them. For me, it's all about integrating play and fun into it so it doesn't feel too mathy or dry. But there are plenty of places. I just recommend— Push past your fears. What's the worst thing that can happen? Do it late at night when no one knows you're doing it, but study a little bit of math. Just like just little bitty little baby steps. Just decimals, percents. How do they work together? What does it mean when you feel your brain shutting off because of emotional trauma? You you'll know. Okay, this is the moment that I recognize that this is not a rational fear. It's an irrational like. you know, childhood-based demon that I need to excise, and I can help you do that.

I could see this because before coming to the studio, I'd shown one of your books to a friend of mine, and she was going through it, and she noticed that she actually has a resistance to numbers and that it also manifests in her finances.

Right, of course.

Because she actually avoids— she doesn't even like looking at numbers.

Right, right.

So she won't even look at, even her spending patterns and her budgeting and all those different things because of an irrational fear that was there, you know, got imprinted when she was like 6.

Yeah. No, here I talk about, uh, you know, I'm talking about decimals and, um, uh, talking about— I say why calculators would make terrible boyfriends.

Okay.

Um, how to entertain yourself while babysitting a devil child. This is like— these are the names of the chapters because this, this is the kind of stuff that I do to teach Um, to teach math because it's fun and it doesn't feel mathy.

Her exact words was she wishes this was her math textbook back in school.

Oh, well, it can be now, and that's what I really want to emphasize to, to adults listening, that you don't have to hold on to that limitation. You're the one who said that people hold on to their limitations. What is that?

Yeah, if you argue for your—

Argue, yes. People fight for the limit. Yeah, stop fighting for your limitation in math.

And they have this identity issue. It's just like, I'm not Right.

And it's almost a delight, and I'm not sure why people almost delight in the comfort of saying—

Like it's a badge of honor or something.

Badge of honor. Oh, yeah, I can't do math. I'm terrible. But nobody would ever do that when it comes to like reading, for example. Oh, I can't read. Yeah. What?

Right.

You wouldn't be proud of that. Don't be proud of not being able to do math. It's not— it's not the end of the world because you can fix it.

You can do something about it.

Yeah, exactly. But don't fight, you know, don't fight for that limitation.

And people think that because they took the SATs or some kind of standardized test and it was a reflection on their intelligence, but it's not. necessarily how smart somebody is, or you're, you're thinking about this because you have kids, how smart they are. It's really how are you smart? And when you learn how you learn the best, you could apply it towards math or music or marketing or any subject. So this is— while we're having a conversation around math, this math is like x, you know, x equals— well, it's— it could be anything that gives you anxiety, right? And the idea here is—

You're going to use a math analogy to talk about math?

Exactly.

I'm not sure.

I'm really freaking out.

You're not going to learn it. You're not going to lose any listeners on that.

At a meta level, really freaking people out.

Okay, so your fear This is x. Okay, this is the equation. Yeah.

So, but you literally insert x, whatever it is. It's just the idea here is if you are, it, it doesn't have to be permanent. And that, and that if you make a mistake, even in math, it's okay. That we had, we had another guest, she said, talk about mistakes and failure. He said, and she said that, yeah, if failure is not an option, then neither is success.

Ooh.

Yeah, failure is not an option. And so like math, like you, you make a mistake and then, but there's no mistakes 'Cause it's just proof that you're trying and then you learn from it.

So here's the thing, what I like to say, struggle is part of the learning process. Just like when you go to the gym and you're lifting weights, the struggle, that's why you're going to get better at lifting that weight and get stronger. If you lift light weights all day long, you're not going to learn anything. You're not going to get better. You're not going to get stronger.

People don't realize that math is wonderful. I want to do another episode now on mental fitness, 'cause this is a different topic. Like, it helps with your problem-solving ability. I mean, it's incredible what math does.

Absolutely, in every part of your life. It's a good investment in your time. And by the way, you don't have to buy my books. They're at the library. There's, you know, just take the time. Don't spend money on it. Just take the time. Just take the time and give yourself that gift.

Absolutely. And invest in some way, whether it's these books or something else, because investment in knowledge, as they say, always pays the best dividends. And that's math also as well.

It is.

This is great. Talking to the right person here. So the takeaway right now is that if you have a fear of numbers, This fear was learned.

Yes.

And you could turn fear into fun by adding creativity, adding imagination.

Absolutely.

Gamifying this for yourself or for your children.

Yeah, if you've got kids, start them early.

Start them early. Exactly, because it's a lot easier to work with them then before, you know, than fixing adults when it comes to this, you know, like—

Right. Well, and that's what we all want for our kids. We want them to have it more easy than, you know, easier than we had it. And yeah, my books, look, you can get them on Amazon. You can go to mckellarmath.com and see them all there. You can go to the library. They've got most of my books. at most libraries, but—

So there's no excuse.

There's no excuse. They're for all ages, zero, you know, from the tiniest babies, you know, reading them sweet math stories that they'll always remember and have cuddly associations with, speaking of associations, up through adults, so.

Yeah, and if you're avoiding this, usually, especially when we've titled this around like wealth and finances because that's something that we could all relate to every single day, and so maybe that this is really a wake-up call for some people who are listening that basically we're saying that That maybe the treasure that you seek is hidden in like the, the work that you're avoiding, and maybe this math could really open things up. And little by little, little becomes a lot because consistency compounds. There's another math term.

You're just full of math terms.

This is great.

It was really— it's, you know, it's a form of self-care too, you know. Take care of your brain. Go to the gym and take care of your body. Do a little, little math and take care of your brain. And, you know, the whole point is let's make this Fun, so it doesn't feel scary.

And when it's fun, then you're going to do the right things like save and invest and do all the things. And you could treat it as like more fun.

Who doesn't want to feel like they're in charge of their own life, the CEO of their own company?

Right.

They've got the power and the strength to say, you know what? That's not a good investment. Or, you know what? I'm going to call my credit card company because that APR is BS.

It gives you responsibility. It gives you power.

You can call, you know, look at your APR on your credit card. If you don't like it, call your credit card statement and say, Call the company and say, this is too high. I don't like this. I'm like, well, no, no, I've been paying my bills on time. You need to lower my APR. Okay, fine. And you can pay attention to those numbers.

It does, because you get your sovereignty back. You get your power back.

Absolutely.

As opposed to giving out to these institutions that take advantage of people who are not math literate.

Right.

And you don't have to be perfect at this. It's just, it's a process.

Absolutely.

Thanks. Thanks, Danica.

Thank you.

So everyone who's watching this right now, here's the quick challenge. Take a screenshot of this video. Take a screenshot of this episode. Tag Danica. tag myself in it also as well, and share your big aha from this conversation. How are you with math? We're just really curious to read these comments. And for some of our favorite ones, we will repost them and also give away a signed copy of one of Danica's books just as a thank you for you guys. 'Cause I know, you know, leaders are readers and our community loves to read.

So we'll see you at the next episode. Bye.