Kwik Brain 118: Your Brain & ADD with Dr. Daniel and Tana Amen

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. So here's your question for today, and this is a big one that we get often posted in our private Facebook group. How do you know if you have ADD or someone you know has ADD, and what do you do about it? And I'm really excited to have this conversation here today because, as I was mentioning, now we've had you both on the show before. You've spoken at our events. I'm really excited about this. For people who don't know, we are here with New York Times bestselling authors, Hannah Amen and Dr. Daniel Amen. And, um, the two of you probably have forgotten more about this subject than most people will ever learn.

And, uh, well, I for sure have.

But if we're talking about focus, um, now, I mean, so the question is, we're talking about ADD. Is it ADD or is it just living in the 21st century, you know, in, in the age full of distraction? If somebody's struggling with this for themselves or someone that they know, Where do we, where do we start?

So when we had our first date, I totally did not believe ADD was a real thing, first of all. Um, so I thought you just needed to work harder, pay attention, like dig in.

Okay.

So that was more than 13 years ago. And then we found not only did she have it, but everybody in her family had it. And from her mother and her uncle and her dad had actually been diagnosed with it and he didn't have it. And so ADD—

A lot of myths.

Or ADHD, you know, it's had both names through the years, is a neurodevelopmental disorder where over time— so it's not something you just have for the moment because you're tired. Over time, you have a short attention span, you're distracted, you tend to be pretty disorganized, you procrastinate, everything's the last minute, and you have issues with impulse control. You often don't think it through before you say something. Think it through before you do something. Now, there are a couple of caveats that fool people.

Mm-hmm.

It's short attention span, but not for everything. It's short attention span for regular routine, everyday things like schoolwork, homework, paperwork, chores, the things that make life work. But for things that have their own intrinsic dopamine, for things, um, that are new, novel, highly stimulating, interesting, or frightening, people with ADD can pay attention just fine, which is why they love scary movies because they actually feel tuned in as opposed to someone like me. I'm like, why are you torturing me? Why do I want to feel bad? So short attention span. Distractibility means they really see too much, they hear too much, they feel too much. The whole world comes at them faster and they're not as good at blocking out innocuous things, and so they just get distracted. Disorganization for space and time, so they tend to be late, their rooms, their desks, their book bags tend to be messy or ordered Organized by the pile system, you know, pile here, pile there, pile everywhere. They don't do things, that's a procrastination, until somebody's mad at them to get it done. And the impulsivity can really work negatively on their life.

And I totally didn't— one of the reasons I didn't believe this is because, and this is what I learned, you don't necessarily have to have all of those, and there are multiple types of ADD. So for example, because I'm successful at what I do, graduated top of my class, loved school. My mom is very successful, but she had to work really hard at it. I just thought that that was nonsense. Okay? I actually am anxious, so I don't tend to be a risk-taker or things like that, but mine will show up in different ways. What I didn't understand is that it doesn't look the same for everybody, and that's why he's actually identified different types of ADD, which makes total sense to me. When I actually began to sit back and stop resisting it and pay attention. What I never realized is as successful as I was and as successful as my mom was, we used to joke that she was successful in spite of herself. So that's a big clue. And what I never realized is as successful as I was, was I really meeting my potential and was it harder than it needed to be?

Interesting. So were you successful just because maybe in spite of—

It was hard work and I was intelligent. See, a lot of people have that. That's another myth is if you have ADD, you're not intelligent. That's not true. And I was smart enough also, or intuitive enough maybe, to pick a field that kept me stimulated. I picked trauma, level A trauma nurse.

Neurosurgical ICU nurse.

In a level A trauma unit.

So emergency room physicians have a very high incidence of ADD. Dermatologists have a very low incidence. There's no juice in that.

And I like fighting. I like karate. I don't like playing golf, right? So, but I figured that out sort of intuitively to do things that kept me stimulated. And so I didn't find things like drugs or, you know, I found a different way to do it. But not everybody has that. Some people unfortunately have a more classic ADD where they do self-medicate, where they do have a harder time, where they are more distracted. I'm not distracted as long as I'm doing something like that that keeps me stimulated.

And your mom's an entrepreneur, and about 50% of entrepreneurs have ADD.

Yeah, very smart.

She's very smart. Because they don't do well working for other people. If you work for yourself, it doesn't matter if you're late. It doesn't matter if you don't meet deadlines. And the successful entrepreneurs actually hire their chief operating officer, their executive assistant who has a little OCD, who's like, no, we're going to get this thing done. And as long as you don't fight with them, it can be a very productive relationship. So for example, publicly, the founder of JetBlue has come out and said, I have terrible ADD, but he surrounds himself with people who organize.

Right.

him, and that helps. But when I first started— so I've treated people who have ADD for nearly 40 years, and as a child psychiatrist, half of my child patients have ADD of one form or another. But when I started looking at their brains, I'm like, this is not one thing, it's at least 7 different things.

Really?

And so there's classic ADD— short attention span, distractibility, restlessness, hyperactive, impulsive— and then there are the girls. who have inattentive ADD. So they have a short attention span and they're distracted, but they're really never hyperactive and not terribly impulsive. But they never live to their potential and they hate themselves because it's like, why am I working so hard?

Well, and so perfect example. So I graduated top of my class, was a level A trauma nurse by anyone's standard. I worked for Medtronic doing a really high-level job, had a great time. But when I finally stopped fighting this idea and was like, okay, let me just stop resisting it and see if it actually holds merit, as you stated in the beginning, I became a New York Times bestselling author and I've written 10 books. And I did that, I actually wrote 8 books in 7 years. So I could never have sat still long enough to do that before. I needed to be doing something active all the time.

Okay.

So I did things that were active that were helpful to me, but was I really meeting my potential? That's kind of what I mean by that.

That's amazing. So ADD comes in different forms. And then, so how would somebody who's listening to this right now for themselves or their child or someone they know, if they feel like they have some of these symptoms, is there a test?

So I have a book, it sold about half a million copies called Healing ADD, where I talk about all the different subtypes and what to do. And I love the book because it starts with, I know you're not going to read this book. Read the next 5 pages. And so I teach people how to know what their type is. They can actually go to our website, amenclinics.com, and there's an ADD type test that they can take. And then based on their type, we'll give them specific strategies to help them.

Interesting.

So right now in the general population, I'm actually working on a new book. called The End of Mental Illness, because I just, I hate the whole concept. It's wrong. These are brain issues that steal your mind, not the opposite. So now you go to your family doctor, you go to a psychiatrist, you go, oh, I have ADD. They give you Adderall or give you Concerta or Ritalin. And I'm like, that's just insane. You need some biological data to know, well, what type do I have? And then, well, what are some natural ways to treat it? And what are the medicines? So Adderall actually works really well for type 1 and type 2, but type 3 to 7, it actually makes people worse.

Made me anxious. Wow.

You, you need to know what's going on in your brain. And so, for example, exercise is a natural treatment for ADD that I think you used for many—

Since I was a teenager. Didn't know it.

But you intuitively—

Yeah.

EPA fish oil is really good for ADD, and it's really good for depression, and it's just not good for anxiety or for memory. So knowing the kind of supplements that might be helpful for you— a higher protein, lower carbohydrate diet works for type 1 and type 2, but it actually makes type 3 mean. So you need to know your type and the diet for your type. And so we're not opposed to medicine, but it's more complicated than you have ADD, take a stimulant.

Okay, so this is interesting because people could be doing something they think has good intention, something that's good for them, they could actually be doing—

Oh, no question. I see the son of a famous baseball player, and when he was diagnosed with ADD, they put him on Ritalin and he became suicidal. And I saw him in our Atlanta clinic And he had a pattern we call the ring of fire. So on scans, what we typically see with ADD is low activity in the front part of your brain. So, you know, the prefrontal cortex, focus, forethought, judgment, impulse control. And when it's sleepy, you have ADD symptoms. He had the ring of fire, which means his whole brain worked way too hard. So stimulating a whole brain that works too hard, well, that's stupid. And we have just seen 80% of the time it makes Those patients watch.

Well, and I'm using myself again as an example only because I'm hoping some of your people watching might relate to this. So, when I first realized I had ADD, I'm like, all right, well, so I have these sleepy frontal lobes, maybe I should try a low-dose stimulant. I literally took a baby dose stimulant to see what would happen. But, because my emotional brain was so fired up and overactive and I had what we call the diamond pattern for when you have emotional trauma, That got worse. So it overstimulated me. I was focused on like every single little problem you could imagine. So it doesn't work for everybody. That's what you need to know. Like, it's not the same. It's not a one-pill-fits-all. So—

Are there certain things that there's a through line where it is supportive? Like exercise?

Well, exercise helps all the types. Learning not to believe every stupid thing you think. Because people with ADD, They play this game. So in Healing ADD, there's a chapter called The Games ADD People Play, and the first game they play is, let's have a problem.

Yeah.

They are conflict-seeking, excitement-seeking, drama-driven, and it's because it gives them a stimulant effect. So if a little boy has a bad morning at home, like his mom screams and yells at him, he often will have a good day at school because he got his stimulant. But if he has a bad morning— if he has a good morning at home, he might have a bad day at school because there was no dopamine being, uh, put in his brain. And so people use negative thoughts, they use fighting in relationships. And you, you see the teenage girl who has ADD because what she does in this cycle is she falls in love because there's totally dopamine in falling in love. Um, and since we've known each other, we've both fallen in love. So there's dopamine there. But then after a couple months, it wears off.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, as the relationship becomes more routine, more regular, there's less dopamine. And so you start fighting with your partner, and you get dopamine out of the fighting. And then the other person, they don't have ADD, they're like, okay, I'm done. And you get the drama from breaking up. And so if you see someone who's gone through 4 relationships in a year, Probably have ADD.

Yeah, it's really interesting how knowing these things can really help you. Like, for example, the type of exercise that I would do, I do things I know that they help to stimulate me in a way that I don't take it into my personal life. I don't take that, and I don't want drama in my personal life. So fighting for me, karate, like martial arts, perfect, right? Trauma center, like a trauma unit, it's perfect for me. So I don't want to take that home. That's enough drama for me. That's enough stimulation for me.

And that's great because it takes judgment out of this also, because I'm sure a lot of people who are listening or watching, they, they, there's this, they're criticizing themselves or they're judging somebody else because of this, but it's just the nature of their, their anatomy.

They need glasses for their brain.

What do you mean?

So when you do the right things, whether it's a stimulant, exercise, nutrition, for sure, sleep, those types of things, supplements like we talked about, It's like putting glasses on your brain. You wouldn't judge someone for needing glasses. So you just need to fix it.

And the scans, we often do 2 scans when they come to one of our clinics. So we now have 8 clinics around the country and we do one at rest and one when they concentrate and the person has ADD. So the healthy person, when they concentrate, their brain activates. The person has ADD, when they concentrate, their brain deactivates. So what does that mean? means the harder they try, the worse it gets. And people who have ADD, like people who need glasses, aren't dumb, crazy, or stupid.

Right.

You know, people who need glasses, their eyeballs are shaped funny and they wear glasses so they can focus. People who have ADD aren't dumb, crazy, or stupid. Their frontal lobes turn down when they should turn up. And the medicine or the supplements, the lifestyle interventions help their brain so they can focus But there are clearly things you can do to make it worse.

Not sleeping, alcohol, sugar, so too much, like too much processed food or like refined carbohydrates, that definitely makes ADD worse.

So gluten actually can turn off your cerebellum. 40% of people who have cerebellar ataxia, which means you don't walk straight, it's a gluten sensitivity. And so gluten can actually Decrease activity in the cerebellum. And that's a whole discussion. The cerebellum is so interesting and important, but it's completely connected to your frontal lobes. And anything that hurts the cerebellum hurts your ability to focus.

Hmm.

And so coordination exercises— so you know this— so things like juggling actually help your brain overall be more coordinated and better able What other exercises would fall in that category? Table tennis. Dance is great, but if you drink when you dance, it ruins the benefit.

And he always leaves martial arts out because he doesn't want you getting a head injury. But martial arts, minus the head injury— don't let people hit you in the head— um, martial arts without the head injuries actually is really good because it's complex bilateral moves. It takes a lot of focus and remembering. And actually, a lot of studies have been done on kids with ADD and kids with autism So, but more traditional martial arts, not mixed martial arts, things like doing katas, that type of thing actually requires so much focus and it's repetitive and it's complex. And so it actually is very helpful.

So there's a study on jiu-jitsu from Brazil showing, um, the martial artists actually had more gray matter in their brain, which is more cell bodies.

Hmm. The same with juggling also as well.

Same with juggling.

Yeah, I've read that study at Oxford University. This is amazing. So what would you recommend, to sum this up, people do right now if they feel like this is an issue for themselves or somebody that they love? What are some of the things that they should—

Well, so the first thing is know what type you have. So you can either get the book Healing ADD or go to Amen, like the last word in a prayer, amenclinics.com, and take our free assessment online. And then, if they really want to see their brain, I mean, I always go, well, how do you know really unless you look? We have 8 clinics, 3 on the West Coast and 3 on the East Coast, Atlanta and Chicago.

I'll make sure I get all the links to the book, to your clinic also, and the assessment in our show notes, 100%. I recommend it. I also had my brain scanned here also as well. So, I don't understand still to this day how people are treating Organs that they're not actually looking at.

I don't either.

It's, it's insane.

It is. Okay. Um, and then from, from there, a couple other things that baby lifestyle that they could do to reduce.

So anything you do that steals your sleep. So, so improving sleep, right? So you want to do, you want to assess your environment and improve your sleep, make sure it's dark, make sure you have a routine. Sleep hygiene is really important. So get better sleep and start working on your diet. So you want to—

And I put all of my patients on an elimination diet. So basically just for a month, I want you to eliminate Gluten and dairy, corn, soy, artificial dyes and sweeteners. Just try that.

And sugar as much as possible.

And see if it doesn't have a positive effect. One of our favorite stories, a guy who was seriously suicidal actually ended up with ECT, electric shock therapy. And we put him on elimination diet. He got better, added back gluten, nothing happened, added back dairy, nothing happened, added back corn. He had vision within 20 minutes of putting a gun in his mouth.

We have thousands of stories just from the nutrition aspect.

So, that's astonishing. Yeah. Tana, Daniel, thank you so much for being on the show. I would recommend everybody as a challenge to take a screenshot of this episode, tag the 3 of us in that, and share your biggest aha, like one aha takeaway that you got from this conversation. Because when you teach something, you get to learn it twice. As always, I'll repost some of our favorite. And also we'll gift, um, one of each of their books also as well to some of our favorite posts on social media. And because what you do matters, especially for your gray matter.

Yeah.

Thank you both.

Thank you so much.