Overcoming Perfectionism with Dr. Sasha Heinz & Jim Kwik

Welcome back, Kwik Brain. Your question for today is, how do you overcome the need to people-please, perfectionism, and also paralysis analysis? And have this conversation with you today, we have Dr. Sasha Hines. She's a developmental psychologist. She's an expert in positive psychology, behavioral change, really the art of and science of getting unstuck. She has her BA, her master's, her PhD at all these amazing Ivy League institutions. And I wanted to bring you on, Dr. Hines, about this field of adult development.

Yeah.

We hear about— we were talking before we started recording about child development, but development doesn't stop when you become an adult. And so we all have these issues where we feel sometimes stuck in these areas that we're talking about. We feel the need to be perfect. We get paralyzed because we don't know what to do and how to make a good decision. Some people have a tendency to go out there and just overly please individuals. Where's, where's all that coming from?

It is a great question, which we'll dive into. But I, you know, I think that we need to rebrand self-help as adult development. We have relegated, I think, the most important task of adulthood, which— and frankly of life, of being a human from cradle to grave— is our growth and development over time. And we've relegated in adulthood that task to arguably the cheesiest aisle in the bookstore.

Right.

So, um, which is to me a tragedy. Um, You know, I think that people are looking for help in humaning, in being an adult, and how to show up differently. They can recognize that they may have patterns like people pleasing and perfectionism, and then of course the paralysis that comes with all of this, and feel like, you know, what's wrong with me? I'm 45 years old. Why can I not speak up to my boss? You know, why can I not, um, say no to that cocktail party that I actually don't really want to go to? And it seems so childish.

Hmm.

Um, and yet we all struggle. Many of us struggle with this. In fact, you know, 60%, um, of adults are not highly functioning in terms of their cognitive framework. work. So we've got a lot of work to do in terms of our adult development. And I think, you know, people pleasing, paralysis, perfectionism are all symptoms of what we call a socialized mindset. And that is a, you know, a mental framework that where, where you're embedded in belief systems, where you're looking externally for validation. So you're making sense of the world based on, you know, other people's belief system, what other people have told you to believe. So you're following rules, so to speak, right? Rules of society, rules of your family, rules perhaps of your religion, um, social norms that you've observed. And they're not— it's not to say that we shouldn't follow rules. Like, you think of development as, you know, concentric rings of a tree, right? So you want to— you need to pass through each developmental stage, just like children, right? We don't want to skip developmental stages. Each is important. But, um, when the problem with that staying stuck in a socialized mindset— we want people to go through that. It's very important to learn how to be a good citizen. Um, it's very important to learn how to be a good team member and to compassionately want to show up for other people. and learn how to be a part of, you know, a team. But we, you know, to be a leader in the world today, we need to evolve from that socialized mindset to a more self-authored mindset where your values and the structure of your ethics are internally derived. So you maybe have the same values, but instead of upholding them because you don't want to disappoint somebody. You uphold them because it's in alignment with who you want to be. And it seems like a very simple little, you know, it's not— doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But it's an entire world, you know, it's an entire shift of perspective. In the same way that, you know, in child development, you look at little kids, and And if you go up on an airplane and you're looking out the window and you have 2 little kids with you, you have a 4-year-old and a 10-year-old, the 4-year-old is gonna look out of the window and say, they've become small.

Hmm.

The people are small, the, the cars are small. Okay. But the 10-year-old will say, no, they seem small. They look small because the 10-year-old has developed a more sophisticated meaning-making system. The 10-year-old can understand, oh, it's a trick of perspective. because I'm so high, they look small. Whereas a 4-year-old is still thinking, no, what I see is reality. And these, you know, they've now become little Micro Machines. Remember those little cars? They're like these tiny little cars, right? So all of a sudden, right, they think they can't understand. Oh yeah, they've, they've shifted in terms of how they perceive— how I perceive the size of it. And the same is true in adult development when we're you know, evolving from a more socialized mindset to a self-authored mindset, it's exactly the same kind of massive cognitive leap that we're taking in our understanding of the world.

So what would be some examples of, of that as it plays out?

Yeah, so like, for example, with like the people pleasing and the sort of perfectionism example, you know, imagine that you're at work and You didn't get in. You were supposed to do a deck for your group, and you didn't get it in in time. So the person who's editing it had to work on it over the weekend. Okay, and that person's not pleased about it. A person who is embedded in a socialized mindset, they're going to be very upset and concerned and worried and feel terrible. Because they've disappointed this other person, and that other person is going to be mad at them. Okay, and that's going to feel very real to that person. It's not wrong, right? But there are whole like the reason to show up, the reason to do the quote right thing is because I don't want to disappoint somebody else. Someone who has a socialized mindset would feel. have empathy and feel badly for that person to have to work on a weekend and do it. But their core concern would be, I didn't show up in alignment with who I most want to be.

Mm-hmm.

They would apologize. They would repair that, the injury with the other person. But the central concern wouldn't be like, oh my gosh, I'm a disappointment to somebody else. It would be, man, I didn't live up to my own standards of how I want to show up in the world? And how can I mitigate that and maybe create— like, there wouldn't be the shame, you see, like the shame would be very strong in a socialized mindset, like, right? They're, they're wrong, they've done something very bad. Like, it's almost like a child being punished. And that shame is such a barrier to growth, because a person with a more self-authored mindset, who maybe isn't experiencing the same degree of shame, But still, it's like, man, I blew it. You know, I didn't like— I didn't show up in alignment with my values, which is to be respectful of other people, you know, to be professional, to be whatever, all these other punctual with the work I do. They would be able to sit down and actually get feedback from others, be open to feedback, be open to feedback from themselves, and actually sit down and think about like, okay, what were the ways— how did this go wrong? did I, you know, how did I get myself to a place where I turned this deck in late? Right? How can I rectify that for next time? So it's a, a belief system that's far more— it's just a more sophisticated, nuanced worldview, which is 100% taking into consideration other people's disappointment, and recognizing that that may be the case. But the real issue that they perceive is I didn't, you know, live up to my own self-authored values. And, um, you know, people pleasing, perfectionism, paralysis— like, that's all occurring when we are looking externally for validation, right? People pleasing is about, let me do what I think you want me to do, right? So I can control how you perceive me. Because the most important thing is not how I perceive myself, it's how you perceive me, right? And the same is true with perfectionism, right? It's not about living up to one standard of excellence. It's about, do other people perceive me as excellent? And again, you know, it seems like it's like a little semantic difference, but it's an entirely different world of development. And And you know, you can really see the difference when you, especially with the way people lead. You know, socialized mindsets like great there. It's going to be a great team member, right? They're going to really like show up and do the work. But if you're if you're in the role of being a leader, that the work of developing into more self-author, you know, into self-authorship is. truly essential part of the work, because you can't lead if you're taking everyone's temperature all the time to find out how good you are.

And so how do you— when we're talking about paralysis, or people pleasing, or the sense of wanting things to be perfect, so we're not perceived as, you know, less than— how do you flip— when we're talking about self-development, right, adult development, how do we flip that ownership switch? Like, how come some people seem to have it, right? And other people, you know, are in a different setting, you know, and what are the keys for people to get their agency back?

Right. I mean, I think agency is such a great word. That's exactly what it is, right? It's, it's the ability to be able to define, to self-define, as opposed to be looking to other people to define one's identity. But I think that, you know, it's the interesting thing about development in adulthood is that it's not, it's, it's not correlated with age. So, you know, I can work with a client who's in her 60s, who's struggling with emerging from a socialized mindset, who's still concerned with, but, you know, what would my mom think about this? Right. Right? Even at 60 years old, it's— and there could be, you know, a 22-year-old who has already traversed that gauntlet and is much more self-authored in the way they show up and how they engage with the world. So it's interesting that there really is no relationship to age. One would think that there is, but there isn't. And, and I think part of that has to do with the fact that once we hit, you know, 25, there's this notion that once we've reached full, you know, physical maturity, that we've reached our full psychological, emotional, and cognitive maturity. And that's just not true at all.

Right.

And there's very little framework, um, you know, in adult— in the adult, um, experience To do this work. You know, we, we get kids go through school, there's milestones, there's, you know, they have to, um, you know, show some kind of competence from year to year. And then they— we have— we've ritualized it that they go from year to year and they've grown and developed. And then in adulthood, it's like you're 25 and the idea is like, oh yeah, you're cooked, you know, you're good. But that's not true. We're, we're constantly evolving into more sophisticated meaning-making systems. And, you know, where someone who isn't riddled with that kind of like paralysis of perfectionism is, you know, they have the freedom of their own self-authorship, right? They're not having to— when they're, you know, that writer's block, right?

Right.

So much of what that writer's block is like, Not just about, I don't know what to say. It's, you know, so much anxiety and fear about the anticipation of what are other people gonna think about this?

And a lot of people have that monkey mind. They have that squelcher or that critic.

Absolutely.

That's loud. And our mind is always eavesdropping on that self-talk. So if somebody is racing on the perfectionism or the people-pleasing route, that treadmill, and they could relate to this conversation as they're listening or watching this.

Yeah.

What would your advice be? 'Cause I think people know if you tell them that they actually have, that they give up their sovereignty or their agency when they make excuses or when they see themselves more as a victim, that they don't take responsibility for their thoughts or how they feel. Um, but yet it's the same thing with a lot of the work in self-help. People will know what to do, but they don't do it.

Right, exactly.

Or they try everything and they still— they're still unhappy for some reason.

Yeah. And I think the first thing is just awareness and recognizing like, okay, because I— what I see as a problem, and I see this with so many of my clients, is, you know, if I had a dime for every time a client comes and says like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Right? That's the first thing they say. What in the world is wrong with me? I mean, I have a nice life and I'm competent in all these other areas, right? But, and yet I still do these things. What the heck? Well, recognizing that, you know, there's nothing wrong with you. You weren't born defective. You didn't get the, you know, the wrong— you're not— I mean, right? We all think we're alone on the island of misfit toys. And somehow, like, nobody else struggles with this. Everybody struggles with this. This is a central adult task. Everybody struggles with this. everybody has to go through this, you know, transition, right? Everyone has to go through this developmental phase. So everyone, by the way, unless you don't, which is problematic in and of itself. So, um, so, right, if you don't even develop to a socialized mindset, that's problematic. So, um, you know, everybody has to go through this. So recognizing first and foremost, like, oh, this is normal. This is healthy and normal. And, um, right, so like, let's just remove the big shame duvet that is so— makes it impossible for us to work on anything. Um, and recognizing that like nothing's wrong, nothing's— nothing's gone wrong, you're not nuts. Um, this is a completely normal adult developmental phase that you want to transition through. And beginning to recognize like What are your triggers? What are the assumptions that you're making? You know, if I, um, you know, if the presentation isn't perfect, if, um, I write a blog post with some glaring mistake in it, if I— whatever the concern is, like, you know, if I don't show up impeccably in some way, um, what am I assuming is the, the big, bad, terrible outcome? Right? That's, that's got me in its grips. And often what people will find is that that assumption that's underlying all of this is not sophisticated. You know, it's like, they won't like me.

Hmm.

Right? It sounds like something that, you know, my 7-year-old would say to me. But that's because that part of them that is still believing that, they haven't— that part of their, you know, inner world hasn't evolved as they've evolved. So they're still sort of like embedded in belief systems that made sense when they were 10.

Right.

Right. And it may have been like, you know, being at a school where there was like, you know, cool table and not cool table. And that was a really defining experience for someone. And so it like created a framework of like, man, if, if I'm not accepted in this group, then big, bad, terrible things are going to happen. I'm going to feel all these feelings I don't want to feel, right? So exploring what are the assumptions that are underlying the drive for perfection and to people-please, because of course those behaviors are protective, right? You're protecting some inner, you know, some anticipated negative emotion. I don't want to feel vulnerable, thank you very much. I don't want to feel shame or, um, you know, disappointment or whatever the feeling is. So, you know, recognizing what are the assumptions that are at play like, first and foremost, there's nothing wrong with me. Secondly, what are the assumptions that are, you know, fueling this behavior? And, um, you know, just in that alone, beginning to— because what you want to be able to do is dismantle some of these belief systems. You know, I call myself a mindset coach when I work with my clients. It's really because, you know, mindset— all behavioral change is gonna— is an expression of a mindset change. We can't— We can't create sustainable, lasting change without changing the way we think fundamentally, right? So, you know, if we think that, um, you know, the way to be loved by people is, um, you know, to perform.

Yeah.

to be a performer in some way, like to, you know, always be achieving, winning, whatever, then, um, as long as we believe that that framework is very real, that nothing's going to change. I don't care how many self-help books you read, right? The work is to actually dismantle that belief system. Like, maybe that's not always true, you know? Maybe there's possibility that someone might actually you know, appreciate me or love me, even if I don't, you know, perform and achieve.

So we start with self-awareness.

Totally.

Because you can't transform something or change something if you're not even consciously aware. Like if you're fueled by— and there's a secondary gain, right? People, it's not— not only is it a protective mechanism, but you're also, if you're fueled by this feeling that you're not enough, there are certain rewards that that come because you're acting, right? And so it might not necessarily be the path to happiness, but maybe if it's driving you to get some kind of results, people rely on it and maybe that area of their life hasn't developed, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a very interesting point. I mean, I think that often with goal setting, 'cause I do a lot of work on goal setting with my clients, if we— if when you're goal setting from you know, that place of it's a should, it's a must, it's an ought to.

Right.

Um, which is like the hallmark of a socialized mindset, right? If there's lots of shoulds in your life, there's probably— it's an indicator that you're embedded in that belief system. And there's nothing wrong with it. Again, like, there's nothing— there's no hierarchical, like, it's better. They're all necessary stages of adult development. So there's nothing wrong with it. It's just recognizing where you're at. The problem is, is that it's very, it's hard to motivate ourselves from a place of should. And it always ends up feeling like a Pyrrhic victory. So when people accomplish something big and they, but they kind of at the end of it feel like meh, right? They're like, they've just got to get right back on that treadmill of achievement. And it starts to feel they're just exhausted.

Yeah.

Right? Like, it's again, it's because that the, the goal that they're setting is not necessarily— it's, it's not, um, you know, rooted in an intrinsic desire. It's normally some extrinsically motivated desire. So that's like, you know, doing— achieving a goal for some external— for the sake of something external.

Right.

Whether it's like, you know, to, uh, you know, accolades, a sense of, you know, approval, fame, image. Those are all external motivators, and they're powerful, and they can be very powerful, and people can achieve a lot using that fuel. Um, but it's like, it's fuel that burns dirty. You know, it's like burning coal instead of burning clean energy. It's, it's gonna have a lot of— there's, there's gonna be a lot of pollution in your life.

And there's a difference between something being attainable, you know, because you're motivated by external stuff to be able to achieve something, um, there, but then also having it sustainable, right? You know, over, over, over time. And so having that clean energy, um, What would you say to somebody who's looking to reclaim that ownership or that authorship as they could write a new chapter in their life every single day, right? In terms of not blaming or not feeling like they're not enough in comparison to what's going on the outside, right? It's like with a lot of people being depressed, this digital depression, because they're comparing themselves to everybody else on social media, the highlight trailer.

Yeah.

And then the truth is, it's green where you water it. Sometimes it looks greener because the filter they're using, or there's a lot of artificial turf that could be online. But when it comes down to it, it's not. I did this tweet the other day. I said, haters, message to haters, it's not your job to like, love, or respect me. It's mine. Right.

That's exactly what self-authorship is, right?

It's like, I get to define And then where's the border between that and you're not into somebody who goes from social all the way back to solo and they're not getting feedback? You know, where's the line where people could go extreme, um, and become narcissistic, like where it's, it's, it's driven, yeah, where they're completely isolated? Do you know what I mean?

Well, I mean, I think that the, the misnomer is that if you're self-authored in some way, that it's like it, it, it's narcissistic in some way. Like, I, you know, I define who I am and, you know, I don't care what you think. Okay, not caring what other people think means that you have not actually transitioned through socialization. Like, you haven't gone through that developmental stage yet.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so that's like, we're talking self-sovereign. That's not even— that's less developed than even being in like a socialized mindset. So I think that it's actually really important to, to state, you know, self-authorship means that you're, you're, you're incorporating the lessons of what you learned from that socialized mind, and you've evolved it. You've expanded on it. You've seen it instead of being inside the snow globe. You recognize that you can see that you're now outside the snow globe. You're seeing it, and you're like, you can recognize like, oh, you know what, I actually do like those values. I think they're very useful. I think they're important, they matter to me.

Right.

But I'm not going to just take blindly, just assume them because that's— that was the ethos of my family. I'm actually deciding on purpose with autonomy that this is who I want to be and how I want to show up. Right. And so, and so it's like, you know, it's a little nuanced, but it's really important to understand that, you know, When you're first, for you saying haters, whatever you want to say, it's not to say it doesn't hurt. Of course it hurts. I mean, I can't imagine it like any. I mean, I get things on Instagram too, right? It hurts. It feels uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good to have negative comments or whatever being made, and that is healthy and normal. It's right. That's a normal response, but it is. am I going to allow like my fear of that feedback to direct my behavior, to direct my actions? Or am I going to define, even though it doesn't feel great, how I show up and how I want to proceed and what I'm going to choose to do with my life? Right? So, you know, that is, we're all moving towards a more sophisticated, mature, frankly, mindset. And there's freedom in that, right? There's, there's freedom in being able to shift and see different perspectives and actually expanding the way you see things. It's not so myopic. It's not like, you know, if I, you know, don't have this particular job, then I'm not taken seriously. I mean, like, this is the way that we think about things, right? We've made it all up. We've made all these belief systems up, but they feel very real to us, right?

Yeah.

Like, as someone who comes from a family, um, you know, of a long line of lawyers, and they want to be an artist, or, you know, they want to, um, you know, work in advertising, I don't know, something different. And the, the crisis of, will I be taken seriously? Will I be seen as flimsy? Will I not be appreciated within my family structure? Like, that is— it is very— it feels very real.

Okay.

But then when you're looking at it from a more sophisticated perspective, you look at it, you're like, this is completely made up. Like, who cares whether someone is a lawyer or decides to be You know, a life coach.

Right, right, right.

That's— I— that's what I had to go through, right? But I mean, I think that is, um, and practices, you know, in that, in that capacity, it, it doesn't matter, right? It's like you can recognize that it's kind of— it's all made up. But when you're embedded in it, it feels so real. In the same way that if you're, you know, when you're in that sort of perfectionist paralysis, you're like If I don't write the perfect blog, even though 4 people are only going to read it, you know, it says something about my worthiness as a human being. That feels so real.

It does.

Right? It's like, it feels so scary and so real. As we can, you know, emerge from that, we can begin to see, right-size it and see it for what it is, which is like, oh, it's actually just a story I told myself. It's just an assumption I made.

So after people are aware of— so self-awareness is so important, right? Self-management also as well. So if people are—

And finding developmental communities. I mean, and I think that that's where we fail people.

Tell me more about that.

You know, we don't have— in adulthood, there aren't really communities that are set up to help people work through these issues. Um, therapy is a great place to do this kind of work, but we do it alone. And I think what, what I find, especially in the groups that I run, um, in Mind Your Mind, so much of the growth and development that's happening is in other people recognizing, oh my gosh, other people also have the same problem.

Mm-hmm.

Other people have the same mindset. And they be— because in watching someone else spinning out in their own, you know, embedded little mindset, right? You begin to recognize you, you are the objective observer of somebody else, and you realize like, oh my gosh, what they think, it's so real. And you can see it's not real, right? But you can recognize like, ah, but if that was me, I think I'd be in the same boat. I think it was very— it'd feel very real to me too. So there's something about being in a community And having the opportunity to observe other people embedded in their own mindsets, you know, in a learning community and being able to see it for what it is, and then applying that to oneself and recognizing, oh, okay, that same thing is happening to me too. So, you know, learning in the community. And again, with children, we do this. They learn in community. We set up a structure for them to be learning together at school, in, in on teams and all sorts of things that they do together to grow and to develop themselves. And in adulthood, you know, we're flying solo. And, and I think it's very hard to do this work on one's own.

Right.

It's, it is much easier to be, to be in a group environment, or even with a skillful coach, or a therapist to be able to see the belief systems that you're so embedded in. Because there is no change without being able to see those, to be able to see, like, you know, we're kind of stuck in our own, you know, in our own stories.

I like what you said about community in terms of being conscious, consciously aware of, like, objectively observing other individuals, and they act like a mirror for our own patterns.

Yeah.

And, um, because it's not just, you know, it's not just our own neurological networks, it's, it's our social networks, certainly, that have a, you know, they have an effect on the words we use, on the actions we take, on our own thoughts, on our own character, on the habits that we, we develop. And it's interesting because if people are fueling their life on the opinions of those around them, both positive and negative, then we're eventually going to run out of gas. No one has a right to define who you are. And the only opinion that matters about somebody or their dream is ours. And I think we do ourselves a big disservice when we let the noise of other people's opinions and expectations distort our own reality, subvert our own thoughts and drown our own inner voice.

Absolutely.

And so once you're aware of these things, then you And you could also introduce doubt in your own mind of the things that, you know, about the assumptions and attitudes we hold around money or our own potential, you know, who we are in our own career, health, and relationships.

Exactly. Being in community with people that are willing to question assumptions and actively doing so. I think another thing could be really helpful for people is, you know, making sure that you have a group of trusted friends that you've articulated to them, you're my reality check. When I am spinning out in paralysis and I can't make a decision, or, um, you know, I am— I can't— I'm not moving forward on a project because I just can't get myself to sit down and do it because I'm riddled with, you know, that sort of perfectionist, you know, just being stuck in perfectionism. Having someone that you trust that's a wise voice in your life that you can call and say, like, is this reasonable? Here's my big fear. Here's what I'm assuming. Here's the terrible bad thing I'm assuming is going to happen. Is this reasonable? And if, you know, most times people will say like, okay, there may be an aspect of that, like a piece of that might happen, or it might, you know, yeah, you might, you may make a mistake and you may get some feedback that's not All wonderful. But no, the world's not going to end. No, everyone isn't going to hate you. No, your career isn't going to be over. So you have someone who's kind of a touchstone of reality saying, who's not embedded in your, as we call it, treading water in the deep end with you. They're actually on the ledge of the pool watching you tread water. And they're like, hey, I'm going to throw you a lifeline. What you're thinking is actually not that rational. And I love you. And it's not, I understand why you're thinking what you're thinking, but that's not, it doesn't actually make a ton of sense. Like, let's actually play this out. It's not likely to happen, right? There's a really good CBT exercise, which is anyone can do. It takes 5 minutes. It's a great, it's, you know, it is, it's a developmental tool to use.

Yeah.

And that is, if you're in that kind of catastrophic thinking or that sense of paralysis, spinning out, can't make a decision, write down what you imagine the worst-case scenario is going to be. I mean, truly doomsday. What's the worst thing that you're imagining? Allow yourself to truly go there, the worst thing. And then the next step is write the best possible scenario. What's the best possible outcome?

Hmm.

It's very hard for people actually to go there. Interestingly, very hard. We're very— it's very easy for our brains, our negativity bias, that we can imagine the worst possible outcome in, you know, less than a second. But it takes people some time to actually think about, well, what if this actually went better than I could possibly imagine? What would that look like? And then the third step is, what's the most realistic scenario given the worst and the best? What's the most realistic outcome? And it normally leaves you with, you know, it's probably not going to be so catastrophic. And it's probably not gonna, you know, be the best thing ever happened to me, but it's probably gonna be okay. It'll probably be fine. Right. It'll be a night, a learning experience, a stepping stone to the next thing or whatever. And it gets you kind of over that hump of just, um, you know, just when you're feeling just stuck and you can't move forward and it can help you to kind of move, move beyond that. But that's a perspective. You can think about that exercise in this, you know, from the framework I'm talking about, adult development, it's an exercise to help you gain perspective, right? You're, you're taking the story that you're telling, and you're looking at it more objectively, from the vantage point of your, you know, more wise, higher self.

I like that a lot. And so people do the worst case scenario, the maybe best case scenario, and then what realistically will happen. And even what you're saying is having that person, that buddy, that family member that call you on your stuff, that's giving you another perspective. Totally able to get out, to get, to get on stuff.

Exactly. It's helping you, um, you know, not— they're not embedded in your thoughts and feelings. And so they can really be extremely valuable.

Yeah, I like what you said about imagination. Because I feel that worrying is sometimes, or a lot of times, a misuse of our own imagination.

Totally.

You're just rehearsing over and over again and everything that could go wrong.

It's the crappiest use of our imagination.

Yeah, very much so. This is amazing. So Dr. Heinz, I would challenge everybody to take a screenshot of this and to post it online. What can— what do you want to ask them if they're going to post something online and, uh, and tag, uh, which social media?

Oh, Instagram. It's, um, yeah, @drsashahinds. So @DrSashaHinds. Yeah.

Amazing. So tag Dr. Hinds, tag myself so we get to see it. And then what do you want them to post? Maybe we could ask them a question or challenge them to do something.

I mean, I think the biggest question always is, you know, allowing yourself— and this is where having a journal or someplace that you write, when you get to that place that just can't move forward, you feel stuck. We all have that. We all have moments where that happens. What is the big, bad, terrible fear? What's the big, bad, terrible assumption that you're making? And it doesn't— And don't worry if it doesn't sound you know, very grown up. It's not. It's gonna sound like a 5-year-old, right?

Right.

They're not gonna like me, or I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna destroy my career. It's like none of it's rational. It's all, um, you know, they're not evolved, right? So recognizing like what is the big, bad, terrible fear that you're assuming is gonna happen, and, and that that's what has you in its grips. So the first thing is, and once you know what that is, you know, if I can't write this piece, then I'll never be a writer, I'll never be taken seriously, or whatever it is. If I blow this presentation, I'll blow my entire career. Okay. You know, once we know what that assumption is, then you can start to get some feedback on it, like, from trusted individuals, from yourself in communities that you're in, um, and having those vulnerable, honest conversations like, does this actually make sense? Probably not.

I, I love that. And where can people, uh, connect with you if they want?

Yeah, so I'm on, um, the social— my preference for social media is, um, Instagram. And, um, so come hang out with me on Instagram. And my website is exactly the same same name, so drsashahines.com. And we have Mind Your Mind as the, the, my adult— although, you know, I was laughing with you, I'm like, it's not a very— it does not sound sexy and cool. Adult development does not necessarily sound that cool. It is so cool. Um, but you know what, Mind Your Mind is exactly that, a framework, a place, um, where I teach this work and, and help people do that work of of developing themselves and transforming their minds. And, and it's, to me, the most exciting thing in the world is watching people emerge from their own stuckness and finding that sense of freedom on the other side.

I love that. I just got goosebumps. I call them truth bumps. I would recommend everyone follow you on social media. We'll put links to your website, everything in the show notes as we always do at jimkwik.com/notes. If you're If you're listening to this on Spotify or on iTunes, I highly recommend you watch the entire conversation on the extended version on our YouTube channel. That's where we put all the content above 20 minutes also as well. So there are some real gems there. So if you're just listening to this, if you missed that, then you missed a lot. And what I would recommend is, yeah, everyone go follow Dr. Hines. Remember that it's not about being perfect, it's about progress, right? It's easy to think Hey, we need to release self-judgment. But in those moments where we start criticizing or being hard on ourself, maybe we could just pause and just observe ourself instead, develop that curiosity, develop that awareness. 'Cause the former leads to self-doubt, but the latter leads to self-development, right? And self-awareness.

Absolutely.

So amazing.

And this is it. Like there is no finish line, right? I mean, I think that's so important. There's no finish line, there's no fixing. It's just a, it's a process. It is, it's the central process in my opinion, um, that we are, that we are asked to wrestle with, um, in the, you know, experience of being human.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is self-awareness for me. It's having the curiosity to know ourself, and then the other part is having the courage to be ourself also as well.

Exactly right.

Amazing, Dr. Heinz. Thank you so much for being on our show.

So much fun to talk to you.

Oh, we'll do it again.

All right, awesome.

Hi, Kwik Brain, it's your brain coach. I want to thank you so much for watching this video. 3 things to do. Number 1, make sure you share this because when you teach something, you get to learn it twice. Update your learning so you can update other people's learning as well. Number 2, make sure you subscribe to this channel so you don't miss a thing because if you miss a video, you miss a lot. And finally, make sure you hit that bell so you're Notified and you find out when we put out the latest and the greatest. One extra thing, if you want really close attention, then text me. Here is my phone number: 310-299-9362. Did you remember that number? 310-299-9362. Shoot me a Hit text and we'll stay in touch. Ask me your burning question. And I wish your days be full of lots of life, lots of love, lots of laughter, and always lots of learning. I'll see you in our next video.

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