The Advantages of Being Socially Awkward | Ty Tashiro & Jim Kwik

In this episode, we'll dive into the depths of what it means to be awkward and how the very traits that make you feel out of sync can actually unlock extraordinary success.

There's a strong correlation between social awkwardness and giftedness.

How would you define social awkwardness?

Being awkward's kind of like speaking your second language.

Has your research discovered or uncovered if this is genetic?

The large majority of awkward people I know have tremendous intent. Their intent is so good and they want so badly to do the right thing. They want so badly to be helpful and for the social interaction to go well. It's just they are a little bit clumsy socially.

There are only a few things that are more psychologically devastating than the feeling of social exclusion.

So about 10 to 15% of the population is socially awkward.

Where does that awkwardness come from?

The reason why awkward people look at the chin or the corner of the ear is because looking into the eye region is too overstimulating for their brains.

Loneliness is an epidemic. where people feel isolated.

Key is figuring out how to fit in when you need to without losing yourself.

How can they be at more ease in social settings?

The same systematic way that you focus and persist on your interest or the thing that you love, you need to take that same focus and persistence and apply it to your social life.

We all have this drive to belong, to be able to fit in.

If awkward people could just skip the first 5 minutes of conversation, I think they'd actually be all right.

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I am your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Today we have psychologist and interpersonal relationship expert, Ty Tashiro, knows what it's like to be awkward. Growing up, he could do math in his head and memorize the earned run averages of every National League starting pitcher, but he couldn't pour liquids without spilling and habitually forgot to bring his glove to Little League games. In his research, he unpacks decades of research into human intelligence, neuroscience, personality, and sociology to help us better understand this widely shared trait and how these unique quirks can be our greatest superpower. Welcome to the show, Ty.

Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, been looking forward to this conversation because I'm sure you hear this a lot, but the title of your most recent book, Awkward, pretty much defines like my life.

Oh yeah.

A lot.

Well, you're in good company today because it's mine too.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Well, why don't we start with that? What inspired you to research and to write about this phenomenon of awkwardness?

So I had this time maybe 6 years ago or so where I just so happened to go visit a bunch of friends who had moved to new cities.

Okay.

And just by coincidence, a lot of these friends were socially awkward. So I have non-awkward friends as well, but there were 3 or 4 right in a row, all awkward friends. And so I was watching them trying to make new friends in these new cities. And we go to parties or gatherings and I'd watch them be awkward. And you know how it is, as you're watching a social situation unfold. And I just see the other person make some excuse to go get a drink or go to the restroom or anything to end the conversation.

Mm-hmm.

And it made me really sad, actually. And I thought, I felt a lot of empathy for my friends, my awkward friends, who I knew were amazing people. like tremendous friends with great character, so interesting. And I thought it's a real shame that in 2 or 3 minutes, this person made a decision about whether or not they wanted to get to know this person.

Hmm.

And, you know, I had this thought, like, if awkward people could just skip the first 5 minutes of conversation, I think they'd actually be all right. And so that little curiosity, it kind of got me into looking into the research on social awkwardness. And I just found it to be fascinating. And here we are years later. And it's a really interesting area. And I think it's a really wonderful area because it shows the power of being unique and how that can have a tremendous upside.

So when you're thinking about those friends and reflecting on it, what are the characteristics or how would you define social awkwardness? And then my follow-up question would be, are there myths around awkwardness that maybe people, maybe we could clarify some of the things that people believe that maybe it's not true.

For sure.

So how would you define social awkwardness?

Well, I like to do 2 things. So there's awkward moments and then there's awkward people.

Okay.

All right. And we've all had awkward moments.

That's for sure. Yeah.

It's part of the fun of the topic, I think. Even the most socially adept people have had their awkward moments. They'll even blush sometimes years later when they recall these stories. They get funny, fortunately, over time a lot of times, but in the moment, Certainly very embarrassing. Awkward moments are just deviations from relatively minor social expectations.

What would be an example of?

So not having spinach in your front teeth. Pretty minor, right? But if you were giving a talk and you had spinach stuck in your front teeth, that would be pretty awkward. Pretty awkward. Super embarrassed. People would feel awkward for you. Zip zipper. Pretty minor, actually, when you think about it, but super awkward when we don't meet that expectation. And so everyone has awkward moments. They're just these little blips or aberrations in what's otherwise usually pretty smooth social interaction. I think awkward moments actually tell us something pretty interesting about the social mind because it's like an all-or-nothing fire alarm. I don't know if you ever had that where you're— there's barely any smoke or heat coming off the stove and the alarm goes off and it's really loud. It's kind of the way our minds react to awkward moments. And it just shows how sensitive we are to coordinating social interactions with each other, keeping those expectations rolling smoothly. And then anytime there's a deviation, we respond with a really powerful emotional response. Yeah. So those are awkward moments. Now there's awkward people. Awkward people have more awkward moments, obviously.

Right.

But we also know that their brains actually just work differently than people who are what I would call socially fluent or really socially adept.

Okay.

And so about 10 to 15% of the population is socially awkward. And they just have a harder time deciphering what's the social skill required in the situation. So what's the expectation, social expectation here? They have a harder time executing the social skill to meet that expectation. They also have trouble with communication. So that could be understanding what someone else intends to communicate to them. Or it could be getting their point across in a way that's socially palatable. So for example, sometimes awkward people are too blunt and say, hey, you didn't need to say that, or you could have said it in a little more cushioned kind of way. The last characteristic is actually my favorite and it's obsessive interests. And so awkward people, I like to say they really love what they love.

Okay.

And yeah, well, everybody has something that they're interested in. Awkward people, almost get obsessive or do get obsessive about the things that they're interested in.

Has your research discovered or uncovered if this is genetic or is it nature or nurture or a combination of? Or yeah, where does that awkwardness come from?

Well, a little bit genetic, actually. So it's, yeah, so it's about 52% heritable in boys.

Okay.

Yeah. And then it goes down to 39% for girls. The family environment has a stronger influence on girls, but in a positive way. So girls tend to get a little more attention in our culture as far as socialization goes. Boys get a little bit less. And so some of it comes from genetics. And even if your parents weren't awkward, you don't have to look far. Usually there's an uncle or an aunt or someone close by and you're like, okay, there we go.

And as you're talking, I'm sure people who are listening or watching, examples are coming into their mind of people that have fallen with this label or this category.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, but, you know, a lot of times you'll have at least one awkward parent and then you have an awkward kid. And so then some of it is the social environment, you know, and just how they're reared. So it emerges very early on before kindergarten. You can start to see signals of kids who are going to end up being socially awkward.

Going back to the myths, are there, you think there's one or two myths that people commonly believe? that maybe is not, your research has shown is not accurate or true? If there is any.

Oh, for sure.

Okay.

Right. Because people don't meet a certain social expectation. Immediately our mind starts to search for more information. So why did they not shake my hand? Why are they not making good eye contact with me? Now we start to make attributions and fishing around. We might say, well, they're not making good eye contact with me because they're rude or they don't care what I have to say.

Right.

And now it goes to making inference about the awkward person's intent. And the large majority of awkward people I know have tremendous intent. I mean, their intent is so good and they want so badly to do the right thing. They want so badly to be helpful and for the social interaction to go well. It's just they are a little bit clumsy socially, right? So it's an ability thing. And I think when people reframe it that way, that, hey, this isn't an intent, a bad intent on the awkward person's part. Maybe it's just that they're struggling processing what needs to happen in this situation or having a hard time executing on what they think needs to happen.

This seems like it's like a Seinfeld episode where, I don't know, you could take any of the episodes where You had the close talker, right? The person that's like right in your face and they don't realize that it's awkward to people around them, but it has an effect. Is that how it shows up with eye contact and proximity or?

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. In the United States, the proper amount of personal space is about 19 inches, 19, 20 inches.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Okay. And so you could be a space invader, close talker, right? But of course, our brain starts to make attributions. Why is this person in my space? And we might think, well, they're threatening or they're trying to intimidate me, for example. Sometimes awkward people stand too far away, feel kind of oddly distant, you know, and then you think, oh, maybe they're disinterested in the conversation or disinterested in me. So yeah, there's a lot of different things that can happen. Also, eye contact is another good thing. So when socially fluent people get into a social interaction, they reflexively look at the eye region of the other person.

Okay.

It's a really smart place to look because the eye region is the most information-rich part of the face.

Interesting.

Yeah. But, you know, no one had to tell the socially fluent person to do that. They just reflexively do that. And they do that time and time again. Now, socially awkward people, by comparison, tend to reflexively look at the chin or they tend to look at the corner of the ear. Which are much less information-rich areas of the face. So you can imagine, right from the start of the interaction, the socially fluent person is keyed in to a lot of important social information, a lot of social cues coming from the emotions on the other person's face.

Right.

Socially awkward person has missed a lot of emotional information, and at the same time, has now sent kind of an awkward nonverbal signal to the other person. And if you've had someone make erratic eye contact with you, it does feel kind of viscerally uncomfortable.

Right.

Yeah.

Even unconsciously, if you're not even consciously aware, you just kind of will have this feeling of unease, maybe.

Exactly. And then you start to do that wondering.

Right. Is it because of—

Exactly. And I think this is a really good example of how there can be some misunderstandings about awkward people.

Okay.

So the reason why awkward people look at the chin or the corner of the ear is because looking into the eye region is too overstimulating for their brains. It's kind of like looking into the sun for too long by analogy. And so by looking at the chin or the ear, which they learn to do very early on in life, they actually dampen the emotional intensity of the situation. And by doing so, they're actually more able to stay attuned to what you're saying. And to stay linked into the interaction. So it's a totally different reasoning there, right? They're actually doing that so that they can understand what it is you're saying rather than being disrespectful or disinterested.

And I love that because the awareness is, even if you don't identify as awkward, someone listening, certainly we all know people who are awkward. It also takes the judgment out once you have these distinctions for people listening. Maybe they have somebody in their life that's looking at your ear, their eyes are kind of erratic or looking at their chin.

Yeah.

Is there a correlation? Have you found any at all between someone being an extrovert or introvert? Does that play into this at all?

So this is actually curious. So I expected to find a strong correlation between awkwardness and introversion, right? It turns out it's not as strong as you would expect. There is a bit of a relationship between those two, but There's actually 2 kinds of awkward people, right? So you have the introverted awkward person who's maybe looking at your shoes or the corner of your ear, but you probably also know some awkward people who talk too much sometimes, and they tend to lecture people, um, oftentimes about something that they're obsessively interested about that might not be as interesting to the other person. So yeah, it's, it's kind of 2 different, 2 different ways. It brings up a larger point, which I think is interesting, which is that—

Fascinating.

Awkward people just kind of tend to not fall in the middle of the bell curve on just about anything. So it's not that they're, you know, totally introverted or that they are overly extroverted. It's just that they're falling off of what would be average.

That makes sense. Now, in the book, you talk about how being awkward could actually be their benefits. It could be awesome. And there may be certain advantages. What would some of those be? So like, so people listening, if they feel like they are awkward in social situations, that they, they're probably some, some benefit for them, a reward that comes from like in terms of the way they think or perceive the world.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of ways. Let me share 2.

Okay.

So one way is actually social, believe it or not. So The way awkward people process social information is actually very different. So when a socially fluent person goes into a social situation, they're using top-down processing. So they're saying, oh, hey, this is a— this always gets me when I walk into a room with a socially fluent friend. And let's say it's a party. There's a lot of people, a lot of commotion going on. And within seconds they say, there's a great vibe in here. Like, how'd you know that that was the case? But they're just able to kind of top down and see like, hey, the vibe, this general thing is good here. The awkward person by comparison is going bottom up, right? And so they're looking at what's on the table for snacks. They're looking at each person individually. They're thinking about the music. And it's actually a really great point of empathy is If you watch their brain work in fMRIs, they're furiously trying to make sense of what's going on. So they're trying to assemble all of this information, all this disparate information to figure out what is the vibe in this room? What is the expectation? What should I do? And so while that can be an impediment sometimes, other times it can be a real advantage. So some of the people I've heard from the most since this book came out are actually wives who are socially fluent, but their husbands are socially awkward. And they oftentimes tell me the same thing, which is that when there's a social problem that they have that they're really stuck on and that they can't figure out with their other socially fluent friends, they'll go ask their husband. And they said oftentimes their husband has a totally different perspective on what the situation is and how to solve it. And it's because they've been going bottom up. And so they've seen details or pieces, right, of this social situation. They're able to hone in on, hone in on that in a way that's really illuminating to the person who was going top down. So I think that's really a wonderful ability. And awkward people can just see things in unique ways. But also, I think, you know, once they settle into themselves, I think they're so great at understanding the uniqueness in others too.

Yeah.

And just these little parts of us that are kind of quirky or different, but the awkward person will zoom in on that detail and really appreciate it a lot of times.

So that's a great advantage in the way you frame it in a social setting. Is there another one that you— Yeah.

So there's this strong correlation between social awkwardness and giftedness, or striking achievement would be another way to think about it. And we all kind of know people like this. Sometimes we say they're too smart for their own good is one of the colloquial phrases you'll hear. But folks who are really good at what they do, maybe even extraordinary at what they do, but they're kind of socially awkward as well. And one of my favorite studies on this was a large study of 8-year-olds, actually. And these 8-year-olds were kind of a unique sample in that they had all exhibited striking talent at that point in their life.

Okay.

And been identified by teachers or, you know, parents or someone else is like, wow, this kid is unbelievable at the violin or is unbelievable, you know, ballet or writing, whatever it might be. And they found that there was this strong correlation with awkwardness. And then they wanted to investigate. So what's the mechanism? You know, why does the awkward kid kind of tend towards this extraordinary talent. And what I love about this is that, yeah, there was some explanation from IQ so that they did have some intellectual strengths. But the better explanation by far was that they were more persistent. It's kind of that deliberate practice.

Persistent.

Yeah. So you hear about those 10,000 hours of practice to get really good at something. Awkward kids will usually hit that much sooner.

Why do you think that is?

It's the obsessive interest.

The obsessive interest.

Yeah. So they find something they love. They really zero in on it with tremendous focus. And then they're just tireless. And any parent of an awkward kid will tell you this. Whatever it is their kid loves, they will just night and day. Oftentimes there needs to be disciplinary measures taken to say, you need to stop doing your math or writing your poetry, whatever it might be, because they just love it so much. And so, yeah, it's that persistence and that practice that really drives that effect.

What would be the label you put on somebody who is the opposite of socially awkward? Like social fluency or?

Social fluency, yeah. I like the term social fluency because a lot of times to people who are socially adept, I'll say, Being awkward is kind of like speaking your second language.

Okay.

You know, you're just struggling to get all the information to understand everything. It takes a lot more thought to think about how to actually say something or do something. You're more likely to make missteps or say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. It's kind of like that with socially awkward people and social skills.

So can social fluency be something that's learned?

Absolutely.

For somebody that feels awkward?

Absolutely. You know, I, the best writing teacher I ever had was at the university and he was German and English was a second language. He started learning it when he was 10 or something like that. And he had command of the English language like nobody I've ever seen. And so finally one day I just asked him, maybe this is the bluntness in me, if I said, How are you so good at English? You know, he said, because I had to learn it bottom up. I had to learn it word by word, rule by rule, right? And he said, I was very motivated. I was very disciplined because I loved it. And so I learned to do everything right and had to practice it actually maybe more than even I did as a native English speaker. That made tremendous sense to me. And I think it can be the same thing with awkward people sometimes. Now, you know, for me as an awkward adult, I certainly still have moments where I am awkward.

Yeah.

But there's other things where just because I had to practice it way more than other people and actually think about it a lot more in a meta kind of way, I actually think sometimes some social situations are easier for me because I just have had to do it more.

It's similar for me. I had poor focus with my injury and my brain injury and poor memory. And I had to really bottom up, learn the nuances of focus or learning because it was just something that didn't come easy to me, if that makes sense.

It absolutely does. You know, and one of the things I think is so interesting about what you do is Like when you're speaking, for example, you have the audience do things where they'll make a mistake. And it's because they're on autopilot.

Right.

Whereas you've had to think about it, right, bottom up. What's the right sequence to go here? And so, you know, if folks haven't had that experience, then sometimes you could make mistakes or overlook certain things.

Yeah, we have blind spots for sure. So if somebody's listening to this right now, or they know somebody that's socially awkward, or they are, they identify that way, What are some suggestions that you would share with them to be at more ease? Because we all have this, I feel like this drive to belong, to be able to fit in.

Sure.

What would you advise somebody who wants, who feels awkward and they feel it too? And it's not maybe comfortable. How can they be at more ease in social settings? Would you like to have an owner's manual for your brain that could help you unlock all of its powers and abilities. I want to introduce you to the Limitless Mind course, a transformative journey designed to show you exactly how to operate your brain for greater success in all areas of life. In just 21 days, you'll activate expert level of memory, read faster than you could ever imagine, significantly enhance your focus, and gain a competitive advantage with your productivity. The Limitless Mind course is packed with easy-to-watch video lessons that cover proven tips, tools, and strategies, plus digital worksheets tailored for your ultimate learning experience. Join thousands who have transformed their cognitive abilities and opened doors to incredible opportunities.

Just visit thelimitlessmind.com to start your journey I guess there's a few things I'd say. One, it's good to have the social skills, build the social skills you need. But, you know, developmental psychologists have looked for decades now at what makes for a gratifying social life, what makes for great friendships and family relationships and the ones that really matter.

Right.

And they repeatedly find the same 3 things. So it's being fair. It's being kind and it's being loyal.

Oh, wow.

And that might sound so common sense in hindsight, right? But oftentimes I think we forget it, especially with all the social demands put out there. Or we look on social media, we think, oh, that's socially valued, you know, to have 6-pack abs or something. No, it's being fair, being kind, being loyal. I think if folks think about people who are really meaningful to them, who've really been the high-quality friends. Yeah, they embody those qualities over and over again. Awkward people are completely capable of embodying those 3 qualities, right? And so I found a lot of times awkward adults can have great, amazing friendships, right? Because those are the things that really matter. Now, I think it's a little different sometimes for, like, when I'm talking to teenagers, they're like, yeah, I might need something right now. You know, I'm kind of drowning here in middle school or in high school. My advice there is that the same systematic way that you focus and persist on your interest or the thing that you love, you need to take that same focus and persistence and apply it to your social life.

Okay.

Which you can totally do, right? So I was obsessed with basketball and basketball statistics. statistics when I was a kid. And someone told me at one point, a mentor, adult mentor, they said, you know, if you took that same work ethic and that focus and you applied it to some social things, you'd be amazing. And this light bulb went off for me. And yeah, and it turned out to be true. You know, most social interactions are actually kind of boring when you break it down. It's a lot of the same stuff over and over again. And so you can learn, you can learn that script. You can learn those cues and those behaviors to a point that it becomes automatic for you and you don't have to think about it anymore. So if you're a teenager or a young person, I'd say find a great, a few great role models, right? People you really look up to who are fair, kind, loyal, and maybe a little more socially skilled. And, you know, just observe how they handle themselves. Even down to some of the details. And then it's a little hard to do, right? Because it takes quite a bit of humility, but practice. You know, I think we all did that when we were teenagers, socially awkward or not, you practice in the mirror, asking someone out or whatever it might be. But I mean, I would practice a lot as a teenager. How do you greet people? You know, how do you say, Hey, I'm sorry, that must be really difficult when someone has shared something really vulnerable with you. You know, some of those things, even though my heart was in the right place, I didn't always have the right behavior or social skill. And it can be learned. And then you kind of pretty quickly start to see this unity between the social skill, these behaviors, and, you know, where your heart's at and wanting to do the right thing.

So would you say that Is the overall message or one of the messages that you have for our community that somebody feels awkward? Because I felt very seen after reading your book. If that makes sense.

Yeah.

Because growing up with my disability or learning challenges, I didn't want to be seen. I mean, deep down, I wanted to be seen and heard, but I never wanted this, any focus or spotlight on me because I just didn't know things. I didn't know the answer from a— and I also was always shrinking. I didn't want to be bullied, you know, back in school. Is it embrace your awkwardness? Is that part of the mythos that you would have for somebody who's listening that feels a little bit out of sync from the people around them?

Yeah.

Or that it could be a strength-based approach, a trait that could really serve you in the way you think, in the way you perceive your worldview, the way you perceive life.

I think all those are great. pieces of advice, you know, and I'm really glad that some of this resonated with you. And I think that's one of the first things I tell folks is it can feel so lonely and isolating when you don't fit the social expectation or the normative social mold. And you're by far not the only one. And there's a community of folks who are wonderfully different and unique. And I think a lot of times what happens is you figure out how to find those like-minded folks who have some of the similar interests and maybe your hearts are in the same place. And so I think that's nice for people to know. But yeah, I think another thing, you know, a piece of advice my folks gave me that I still use to this day is they would always say, so, Ty, the key is figuring out how to fit in when you need to without losing yourself.

Hmm.

And yeah, I think that's so true because sometimes I see young awkward people and they're trying so hard to fit in, you know, that they're losing their uniqueness and they're losing those things that they actually really love. And I, to me, that's kind of sad, you know? And so, yeah, embrace it, accept it. Also have the humility to say, hey, there's this extra thing I need to work on in the form of social skill or communication. Also with your obsessive interests, you need to be very mindful about diversifying. So like you might, you know, feel like doing your hobby on a Saturday night, but hey, force yourself to go do the uncomfortable social event that might be awkward or might be cool. So yeah, there's a lot of different things that you can do. So it's both embracing, but also saying, hey, let's work on these other things. I might just share a quick anecdote about—

Please.

A friend I had in junior high. He was pretty popular. For some reason, he was friends with me, an awkward kid. And I saw him after school and it was maybe an hour after school had ended. I said, oh, hey, what are you doing here? He said, well, kind of embarrassed, right? He kind of blushed. He said, I'm getting some math tutoring. And I said, that's great. You know, he's like, yeah, but I'm struggling in math. And this light bulb went off for me. I thought, that's amazing that he's humble enough to say, hey, I need some extra help. And he's working extra hard to get himself up to speed. And I was able to transfer that to myself a bit with my social life and say, there's no shame in me recognizing some of these social skill deficits I have. And yeah, like my buddy, I just have to work harder and longer to get up to speed. And once I do, things will be okay.

And you have that kind of growth mindset where things aren't fixed. Like you can improve your EQ, your ability to connect. And it's just, for me, it was, we were talking about this before we started filming. When I was struggling, I read in the comic book, so I couldn't read and something about the illustrations brought it to life. So I would be obsessed about comic books and superheroes even. If you see like my office, there's superheroes everywhere. But a lot of our listeners know that when I was 9 years old, I found out that in the comic book, my favorite superheroes were the X-Men, not because they're the strongest. It's just they didn't fit in. They were mutants, right? And they were marginalized. And I felt identified with them because I just felt like I didn't fit in.

Yeah.

So on the weekends, I would ride my bicycle because I read that The X-Men school, Charles Xavier, Professor X's school, was in Westchester, New York, a suburb of New York City, where I lived. And so on the weekends, I would ride my bicycle around the neighborhood trying to find that school. Because going back to that awkwardness, I wanted to find where I fit in.

Yes.

Yeah. And that was something that at a very early age and trying to reconcile belonging and feeling like you're part of something, but also Standing out, which is also a need that we have, could be difficult at any age or stage of life.

Absolutely. I mean, that's an amazing story of you.

Yeah.

Picturing little you riding around on your bike and looking. And it's just such a wonderful example, I think, of what awkward kids go through.

Yeah. You know, I wanted to spend time in junior high and middle school with the kids that had similar interests. We'd be obsessed about comic books or video games or Dungeons and Dragons. It was awkward for me because all those kids also happened to be the quote unquote nerds where they had great grades, right? So I fit in in our shared obsession over, you know, those topics, but I didn't have the grades. So then I also felt like I was still not, you know, one of them. So I felt awkward even in with other awkward kids. Sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's one of the interesting things about awkwardness too, is that there is a lot of diversity within this category of awkward, right? And so, yeah, you might have a tremendous intellectual strength in one area, but then, you know, really weak communication skills, or you might fit in as far as similar interests, but then maybe struggle with the reading or something like that. And Yeah, you know, I think one of the things I tell folks about awkward moments is the best thing you can do is acknowledge it. You know, just put it out there and say, sorry, that was awkward. You know, and there's actually some studies that show people actually like you more if you did something awkward and then apologized for it than if nothing awkward at all happened because it shows some awareness about it. I know it's hard when people are kids, but Yeah. You know, I think it can be the same thing on a more characteristic level or trait-like level, where it's like, hey, I'm just not very good at this or that, you know? And I'm not making an excuse for myself. I'm just saying, like, I'm not very good at it.

See, I could see that. Yeah. Like playing it in my mind. Who did you write Awkward for? And what are the hopes that you have for that person who's Who's reading that book? Who did you write it for? And what is your hope that they'll get out of it?

I had this really clear image. Actually, I don't think I've ever told anyone this before, actually. So when I was in 7th grade, it was my first year of junior high. I was raised Presbyterian. And I would actually pray every night for social skill. You know, and that was the image I had in my head was a kid, doesn't have to be religious, right? But a kid just hoping and maybe even a little bit desperate for some traction, right?

Yeah.

Some footing to just get to where they want to go. Because, you know, like I said, they want to do right. They want to fit in and be socially fluent. But you just don't know where to start. And so that's who I had in mind. And I would say, hey, look, I know this isn't easy, you know, but here's why things kind of feel this way. And then here's some ways you can use that mind you have, that wonderfully unique mind you have to figure out this social thing. But hey, maybe also do some really cool and unique things, you know, that will differentiate you and make you different.

Well, I appreciate your work because it makes people— loneliness is an epidemic where people feel isolated, even if they're around people because of maybe, at least I'm speaking from my personal experience, I was surrounded by people, but because I felt like I didn't fit in or I was different in certain ways, I felt like I wasn't connected. So loneliness, we know, is just You know, it really is a challenge for our mental health. You know, it can lead to other things. And so I appreciate you writing this book and bringing it out to the world because you offer people hope, right? And actually really help also as well.

I appreciate that. Yeah, that's, you know, the intention. I'm glad you— thank you for sharing that. Like, that's the best thing to hear. And yeah. You know, I think at the core of it, we can all feel, even socially adept people these days, I think, right? We just know that a lot of people do feel lonely and do have a hard time connecting. And one of the interesting things about social awkwardness is by studying how things don't go smoothly sometimes, actually tells us a lot about what needs to happen for things to go well. And, you know, I think that was one of the really nice points to get to is when I said, you know what, all this other junk we have in our social lives and all these social expectations that are put out there of us and these pressures, it's exhausting. It's stressful. It's anxiety-provoking. And really, it's just about, can you find, you know, at least 2 or 3 people that you really have a meaningful connection with who really get you for you and appreciate you for all your you know, wonderful uniqueness. Of course, that's what it's really about. And we know that intellectually somewhere deep down, but sometimes we just have to remind ourselves.

Yeah, this is different, but it's kind of similar where, you know, these traits, we take a very strength-based approach to people's traits and tendencies like ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, you know, where people feel like they're at a disadvantage. But they're doing extraordinary things. And one of the reasons might be because they do perceive the world differently. They do think differently than the norm. Maybe that obsession, that focus, that different point of view led to their remarkable success that they have and the impact they're having in the zeitgeist.

Absolutely. You know, and then for all of us, right? It's that mindset of Hey, odds are a lot of us are functioning differently here and our minds are working differently. So let's just be patient and let's listen. And, you know, let's appreciate the different ways, different strengths and weaknesses, right? People might have. And collectively, yeah, we can really make this into something as creative or different if we do that.

Yeah, we could create this movement. And I encourage people to share this episode wherever they're consuming it right now. They could take a screenshot of it and post it and share with their friends and gift a copy of the book to somebody. Because also, if you'd— if even if the person listening to this or watching it is not— they don't see themselves as socially awkward, maybe gives them a different way of relating to the person in their life that, you know, they've given that label to.

Yeah, I've yet to meet a person Who doesn't have an awkward person they love, actually? And it could be a child or even spouse or a friend, whatever. And they just really appreciate them. So yeah, they're a little different, but, you know, but they've grown over the years just to understand, hey, at the core, this person is pure gold. And these quirks are actually pretty interesting and fun.

I love that. Ty, thank you so much for being on this show. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Where can people find more about your work? How do they connect with you or go deeper with your knowledge?

Sure. Well, then go to taikoshiro.com where you can get to most things. Instagram is another good place to find me. And yeah, the books are available where books are sold.

Okay, wonderful. We'll put it in the show notes, link to your website, to your social media, link to your books. You also have another book on unhappiness. And the title of that?

The Science of Happily Ever After. So it's a book about the science of choosing a great romantic partner.

I love that. I'll put it all in the show notes as we always do at jimkwik.com/notes. And we'll put all the information to be able to connect with Ty and so much more summary and some takeaways. And Ty, thank you so much for being on our show again.

Appreciate you, Jim. Yeah.

Thank everybody who's listening. Remember, we put the extended version of this conversation as we always do On our YouTube channel, join 1.5 million plus subscribers there and leave a comment and let me know what you thought about this episode. And if you're willing to share your level of social awkwardness, I feel like this is a very real, raw conversation. But it's having the curiosity to know yourself and then also having the courage to be that person. In a world where comparison and social media, where we just have this idealized version of how we think we, we should be, that your uniqueness could also be your strength and your, your superpower. So until our next episode, remember to be limitless. Limitless.