The Art of Arguing: Using Disagreements to Deepen Your Relationships

The first 3 minutes of a conflict conversation predicts not only how the rest of the conversation will go, it also predicts how the rest of the relationship will go 6 years down the road.

Doctors Julie and John Gottman of the Gottman Institute have conducted breakthrough research on thousands of couples over 5 decades.

A break shouldn't last any shorter than probably 20 to 30 minutes or any longer than 24 hours.

During conflict, couples who exhibit these 4 key behaviors, they were likely to split. The world's leading relationship scientists have been called the Einsteins of love. They have developed a clinical methodology for treating couples that is research-based.

69% of all the conflicts that couples have in a relationship are perpetual.

Why is that? A lot of people will just say, okay, let's not talk about this anymore, and they shut it These guys are some of the most famous people in the world when it comes to the field of relationship research. And founded the Gottman Institute, all to further their commitment to research-based approaches to relationships. Leading to bestselling books like The 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work and 8 Dates. Their findings, they really may surprise you.

Compromises get sabotaged when people give up too much. Just for the sake of peace, when they're really selling themselves out in the compromise.

How does your understanding of the brain's or the nervous system's response to emotional triggers help couples maybe fight right and communicate more effectively?

The successful couples do something very different. What they do is—

What if your biggest relationship conflicts could actually bring you closer and create deeper intimacy? Learn the secrets of what happy couples are really fighting about behind closed doors from top relationship experts who will reveal the Four Horsemen behaviors that ruin marriages and the Bagel Method that happy couples use to compromise And connect. Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I am your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. Today, we're going to be digging into the secrets that happy couples know about navigating conflict that others don't. We'll explore behaviors that could spell disaster for your partnership or lead to smarter compromises and find out why the first 3 minutes of an argument matter So much. They are the authors of the new book, Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection. Welcome to the show, Drs. Julie and John Gottman.

Thanks so much, Jim. We're happy to be here.

Oh my goodness. So I mentioned to you before we started recording that I am a big fan and follower of your work. And so I've been looking forward to this conversation. And congratulations on your newest book.

Thank you.

And to our listeners, in this episode, I want to address the role of the brain in conflict and connection and how conflict can actually lead to greater connection and deeper intimacy in relationships. Before we do that, people are probably looking at the title. And, you know, when you're thinking about fighting right, right, most couples, they, they seek you out for help with conflict. But you say conflict is also an opportunity for greater levels of intimacy and deeper connection and lasting love. So maybe we could start with that. How is that? How is that so? How do you look at it?

So a lot of people really think that conflict is a bad thing. They think couples who fight are not going to be successful in their relationships. But actually, we've seen the opposite in our research. So there, what we saw is that the couples Who first of all didn't get critical and contemptuous of one another, nor defensive, had a much better time with conflict. And secondly, a lot of times people stay on the surface with a conflict issue. They don't go deeper into childhood background related to their position on an issue, or perhaps their values system, maybe their ideal dream that they're harboring beneath their position on an issue. So When we give couples an intervention that allows them to go much deeper and talk to one another in a more quality, deeper subterranean level beneath that superficial issue, people learn so much about one another that they didn't know before, even if they've been together for 25 years.

Hmm.

It really deepens your understanding of your partner's internal landscape. And that in turn leads to greater connection.

Now in the book, you talk about it, the difference between perpetual conflict and solvable conflict. Maybe we could give our listeners or our viewers the distinctions that you have.

Yeah, because we brought couples into the lab every couple of years for as long as 20 years, we found that 69% of all the conflicts that couples have in a relationship are perpetual. They come from personality differences, lifestyle preferences. You know, we're not attracted to our clone. We're attracted to people who are different but interesting in various ways. And the biggest mistake people make then is they try to turn their partner into them. You've been attracted to somebody very different. And the masters of relationships, the ones that stay together happily, really use those differences in a way as a kind of resource in the relationship. Like Julie is very much an outdoors woman. She loves hiking. She wanted to take 10 women to Mount Everest base camp, trekking in Nepal. And I get altitude sick on a ladder.

Okay.

I'm definitely an indoorsman. But together, I really learned something about appreciating nature from her. And we love to kayak together. I can sit down and we kayak. It's a very easy thing to do in the ocean. And we get to meet seals and dolphins and all kinds of creatures. And I learned that from Julie.

I want to talk about the first few minutes. You talk about in the book the first 3 minutes of a fight and why they're so important. Why is that? Why shouldn't couples be very conscious of how they start that communication?

Yeah, great question, Jim. What we saw in our research is that the first 3 minutes of a conflict conversation predicts not only how the rest of the conversation will go with over 96% accuracy, it also predicts how the rest of the relationship will go 6 years down the road. So that first 3 minutes is really crucial. What we found is that the people who really didn't know how to have conflict would bring up issues with criticism. You're so lazy, you never clean up the kitchen. What's the matter with you?

Hmm.

Okay, so how's somebody going to respond to that, right? So when people bring up an issue by pointing their finger and blaming their partner for the problem, Some personality flaw, what ends up happening is they sabotage getting listened to. Their partner's just going to be defensive and not hear them. The successful couples do something very different. What they do is they describe themselves instead in almost a specific formula. They begin with, I feel. I feel something. I'm upset. I'm stressed, I'm angry, I'm worried. Then they say, about what? What's the situation that they're having the feeling about? Like, I'm annoyed that the kitchen is a mess. Okay, that's the situation. Then they finish their beginnings with a positive need. And that positive need basically is how can your partner shine for you? What can they do to make you feel better about this situation? So altogether, it's, I feel some emotion about what situation, and here's what I need so that you can shine for me. And that way of bringing up a problem eliminates all the criticism, contempt, and defensiveness, and really opens up both people to connecting through the conflict.

It's so interesting that This isn't taught to students, to adults. It's just you're just supposed to know this, similar to what we teach in terms of how to focus or how to remember, how to study. It's not really taught. Our audience, they're all about the brain. And I was just wondering, maybe there's an answer for this, is how does how does your understanding of of the brain's or the nervous system's response to emotional triggers help couples maybe fight right and communicate more effectively? I mean, you could take it for so many different angles. from neuroplasticity to parasympathetic, sympathetic states. But yeah, just wondering how— where does the brain fit in to this, to this way of looking at it?

Yeah.

Well, Jim, my colleague Bob Levinson and I, over 50 years ago, built a lab where we synchronized the autonomic nervous system to the video timecode. So we were measuring heart rate, Uh, how much people were sweating from the palms of their hands, blood velocity, respiration, gross motor movement, all these kinds of physiological measures. And what we discovered was that the people who are autonomically aroused, whose blood is flowing faster, whose hearts are beating faster, who are sweating more, over a 3-year period, their relationships deteriorated.

Interesting.

And the reason We figured out was that they're really close to being in fight or flight. They're secreting cortisol and adrenaline, our 2 stress hormones. And when you do that, when you're physiologically aroused that way, you're in fight or flight. You can't even process information very well. You can't listen very well. You're certainly not a creative problem solver because you feel like running or you feel like just shutting your partner down. It's so aversive. So the autonomic nervous system plays a really big role. And what we've learned is that when people get flooded, that's our term for physiological arousal, general arousal, it's really important to take a break.

Yeah.

And Julie, why don't you, why don't you tell Jim about what, what a break needs to be?

Sure. So, um, a lot of people will just say, okay, let's not talk about this anymore. And they shut everything down. That doesn't work. What we've seen that is really successful is that when a person feels flooded, they need to stop on a dime, say, I'd like to take a break, and they need to say when they'll come back specifically to talk about the issue again. A break shouldn't last any shorter than probably 20 to 30 minutes or any longer than 24 hours. Then, during the break, what do you do? Well, don't think about the perfect rebuttal for your partner. Instead, what you need to do is do something self-soothing. Do something like reading a book, reading a magazine, doing your email, going for a run, playing with the dog, meditating, doing yoga, anything that brings your heart rate Down below 100 beats a minute so that your body can really be equipped to think creatively and to problem solve.

I love that because it's when people are going through that flooding and they have that cortisol and that adrenaline and they're in that sympathetic fight, flight, freeze, it's like almost that you're held hostage in your survival brain and don't have access to your executive functioning, your creativity. You know, maybe levels of compassion and more. And so you're deregulating. I love— we talk about having a brain break, but what a wonderful opportunity to interrupt the pattern and just take a break where you set a set time. So you're setting expectations and where you can deregulate.

And how can you tell if you're flooded? The answer is if you're flooded, if you think that repeating yourself louder will make you more convincing. Then you're flooded. Yeah. Yeah.

And the 33rd time you think your partner is going to slap their forehead and say, oh, now I get it. Uh, probably not.

Because clearly the strategy, what you're doing, it would be insanity doing the same thing over and over again or louder and louder again and expecting different results. Uh, in, in the book, you talk about your research and you found that during conflict, couples who exhibit these key behaviors, I think you call them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, they were likely to split an average of, what is it, 5 years post-wedding or something like that?

About 6.2 years after the wedding.

Wow, okay.

Yeah, if they have the Four Horsemen, which is criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. So if they do those 4 things, they're basically pointing their finger at their partner and saying, you know, as far as I can tell, I'm pretty much perfect, but you're defective. And here's what's wrong with you. And they hope that that statement will get their partner to say, oh, John, you're so intelligent. Thank you for pointing out all my faults. You know, can we have dinner next week so you can tell me all the other ways in which I'm failing as a human being and wife and mother? Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way because when you attack and use criticism, What you get back is defensiveness and escalation or an innocent victim kind of response. And so what you really need to do is use that formula that Julie described. Talk about yourself and what your positive need is.

So from contempt to stonewalling, I guess, how would you avoid those behaviors is to replace it with what you were talking about, Julie?

Yes. Describe yourself. Don't describe your partner, describe yourself. And one thing, Jim, that I wanted to add for your listeners is that contempt is really criticism from on high, from a place of superiority that adds in a little bit of scorn and disgust.

Mm-hmm.

And contempt is not only sulfuric acid for the relationship, it also destroys the immune system. Isn't that amazing? So that the number of times that a listener hears contempt in 15 minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they will have in the coming 4 years.

I did an episode on our podcast on psychoneuroimmunology and just being in that constant state, it makes you more susceptible to colds, to flus, to viruses. I mean, everything is so tied together. I love how we're bringing this into the conversations about connectedness. People, we have a group of a book club and amongst other things where we do live coaching and it's called Kwik Success. Many of our audience, they go to kwiksuccess.com. They had a couple of questions and one of them was around the bagel method. Maybe you could explain what that is and how it works. Are you a high achiever constantly seeking that next level of success? Welcome to the Kwik Success Program. It's a deep dive and support system to master your life and scale to new heights in personal and professional achievement. Included is our exclusive monthly book club where we process transformative ideas from amazing books to level up your learning and your life. We also bring the author to the club to answer your burning questions. You could also participate in monthly live coaching calls with me where your questions meet my decades of expertise. Simply go to kwiksuccess.com. That's kwiksuccess.com and choose the plan that works best for you.

The Bagel Method, or depending on your culture, the Donut Method, is a wonderful way to achieve compromise. Now, what that needs to be preceded by is a deeper understanding of who your partner is. Again, asking your partner questions about their background history related to this issue, their values, their ideal dream that may be subterranean underneath the superficial position they're taking on an issue. Once you have greater understanding of one another, Then one of the best things we've learned about compromise is that people cannot compromise if they feel like they're giving up something that is central to who they are, central to their identity.

What would be an example of that?

Okay, so let's say that somebody really, really wants to get a dog and their partner doesn't. Okay, why do they want to get that dog? Well, Maybe because they see the dog and taking care of the dog as practice for having children later and building a family. While the other person may say, no, I don't want a dog. Why is that? Because they value freedom. They really want the freedom to travel, to go, to see, to have adventures. And one can't do that with a dog along, you see. And so there's an underlying dream for each of them around, do we get a dog or not? So in the Bagel Method, here's what we ask folks to do, and it really works beautifully. You take a big piece of paper, draw a bagel on it or a donut, and in the center circle, write down your position on this issue, what you cannot compromise on. It's just impossible. It would feel like giving up the bones of your body. Whether that's an ideal dream or a core need, whatever it is. And then in the outside circle, you write down what you're more flexible about. And the flexibility tends to fall into details about a compromise, things like when you'll do something, where, who will do it, how long will it last, how much will you spend. Let me give you a great example of how this worked. Is that all right?

Yeah, please.

We had a couple where their dreams were the opposite. They were looking at retirement and the gentleman wanted to sell their house, buy a sailboat, sail around the world. His wife wanted to go live on a farm that had been in her family for over a century. She wanted to take her place in the legacy of ancestors on that farm. Where's the farm located? Iowa. How do you sail around the world from Iowa? This is not an easy thing to do. So they did the Bagel Method. He put sailing in his center circle. She put living on the farm. And then in their flexibility, that's where they found a compromise. Whose dream goes first? How long will it last? Where will we go? When will we go? And they arrived at a compromise like First, they would sail for 1 year, get as far as they could, then put the boat up on dry dock and return to the farm in Iowa, live on the farm for a year. And after 2 years, they would base their next dreams on that 2 years of experience. There's a compromise for you.

And it takes a level of curiosity also. Right. And to know yourself, because some people aren't really clear what they want or why they want it. And then also clarity on, on, on for your clarity and curiosity, having curiosity to know your partner.

Yeah. And part of why this works is that compromises get sabotaged when people give up too much just for the sake of peace, when they're really selling themselves out in the compromise. So here they're not selling themselves out. They're really communicating why these needs are so important to their partner. And then as a team, they're working on a compromise, a team that honors both people's dreams and hopes and wishes.

And then the partners, you feel seen, you feel heard, and you don't build up that resentment that could lead to—

Exactly.

We have a wonderful exercise for couples to do before the compromise. Once they've said what their initial positions are on an issue, then they basically ask each other each one of 6 questions. Each question is designed to go deeper and deeper in your understanding. And the questions are things like, do you have any values that are part of your position on this issue? Is there some background history or childhood history that's part of your position on this issue? What would be your ideal dream here? And so forth. That again allows you to unearth what's really important to your partner, what history is involved in that, what emotional triggers might be involved. And what that in turn builds is more understanding and compassion of your partner so that when it comes time to compromise, you're softer, you're more gentle, you're more willing I love that.

And on the theme of knowing yourself and even getting curious on our own, who we are, you know, know thyself, you talk about in the book 3 different kinds of conflict styles and how understanding your own style could help us connect and really work together.

Yeah, exactly.

What are those 3?

Well, you know, um, people had described these 3 styles before, uh, we did our research. And the one style is conflict avoidance, people who really agree to disagree and generally don't talk a lot about conflict. They find conflict really averse and they don't try to persuade their partner at all. And then, you know, those are avoiders. And then the opposite are people who are very volatile.

Mm-hmm.

Very emotional, and they begin with persuasion right away, and they're very passionate about their point of view.

That's me.

And in the middle, there's the, the validators who, you know, are much more rational and postpone persuasion until they understand each other's position. And used to be that psychologists thought that validator position was the only one that was effective, and we found No, they're all— 3 of them are fine. They're really, they really work as long as the ratio of positivity to negativity exceeds or equals 5 to 1, 5 times as much negativity as positivity. And what's that positivity like? It's really—

During a conflict conversation.

During a conflict conversation, that ratio of 5 to 1, which has become kind of famous in Seattle. In fact, I recently went to a Starbucks and a guy was in a truck and he pulled over and rolled down his window and said, stuck his head out and said, 5 to 1, right? So he knew about it. You know, we had talked to a lot of people, given a lot of public talks about it. But when there's that 5 to 1 positive to negative ratio, the listener is often just expressing a lot of interest and curiosity, saying things like, hmm. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. Good point. Tell me more about that. You know, stuff like that, as opposed to shutting down and having this standoff between people where they're just on opposite ends of this position and they, you know, they're basically playing chicken. Who's going to back down first? And so this 5-to-1 ratio really Means they're working together on the same problem.

5 positive to 1 negative. I mean, people could extrapolate that and probably apply that towards their diet and everything else, like in terms of doing, you know, for everything you junk food, you add, you know, you match it with 5 good things. Can I ask you as we wrap up, why did you write this book Fight Right? And who did you write it for? And what are you hoping that they Beautiful question.

Well, you know, if we look around the world these days, we see tremendous amounts of conflict and conflict that's very destructive. We see a great deal of polarization in our country right now where people are not listening to one another. They're broadcasting, they're talking a lot, right? But they're not listening to the other side and trying to understand the other side. As a result, there's more and more hate that's coming out in our general culture, our general society, which has made us very, very sad. Also, during the pandemic, of course, we heard a lot from couples who were struggling terribly, being contained in a small space, not being able to get apart from one another, and the conflicts getting worse and worse. That happened with with couples who already had problems. The ones who didn't, who were getting along well, actually did better during the pandemic. But a lot of people really struggled. So we have seen that nobody takes Relationships 101, just like you said, Jim. You're absolutely right about that.

Mm-hmm.

We don't know how to have good conflicts. And to be honest, John and I didn't either when we first married 36 years ago. The wonderful successful couples, 3,000 couples we studied, and the successful ones in that group really taught us how to do conflict right. So we thought, my gosh, we really have to spread the word to perhaps somehow help people to listen better to one another and try better to understand. each other rather than trying to hurt each other or put each other down.

I love it. To our audience who are listening, you know, I talk about the power of reading. And if somebody has decades of experience, which the two of you do, and you put it into a book and somebody could read that book in a handful of days, they could download decades of wisdom and insights and practical instruction into days. And that's just a wonderful gift. That you could give yourself. So I highly recommend everyone who's listening. Where do they get the book, Fight Right?

Everywhere.

It is everywhere.

On Amazon, it's in bookstores. It's, it's around.

Fantastic. So make sure you do that. We will link to Drs. Julie and John Gottman's, to their website, to their social media on the show notes as we always do at jimkwik.com/notes. And I want to thank you both so much for being on our show.

Thank you.

You're a great interviewer.

Yes. Really wonderful questions.

Wonderful. Everyone follow them on social media. I'm sure you could find them in these different places if you want. Take a screenshot of where you're consuming this episode.

Go to topmen.com as well.

Perfect. And tag us It's both there, so we get to see it and share your, uh, your one takeaway, you know. And I feel like when you share something, you get to learn it twice. So, so that way your fans, your followers, your family, your friends, uh, get to benefit from, from what you learned here today. So, uh, thank you both so much. And everyone who's listening, uh, to our next episode, be, be limitless.