The Power of Bittersweet Emotions | Jim Kwik & Susan Cain

Welcome back, Kwik Brain. I am your host of the Kwik Brain Show, Jim Kwik, your brain coach. And today we are going to talk about the powers of a bittersweet outlook. And this is an episode I've really been looking forward to. And I want to welcome to our show Susan Cain, who's the author of the bestselling book Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. Many people know my story of I didn't want to be seen. I wanted to be invisible, and I was always shrinking in school. And this book made me feel seen. And Susan's TED Talk has been viewed tens of thousands of times. I think I'm directly responsible for at least 1 million of those views myself personally. So her new masterpiece is called Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole. And I love this book. This is my favorite new book. Susan, so thanks for being on the show.

Well, thank you so much for having me, Jim. It's always just so great to see you.

Yeah, so very wonderful. Now, I just wanted to say that both these titles helped me to better understand myself, be able to see myself in new ways, and really open my eyes. It opened up my mind, opened up my heart. And I also watched your TED Talk, and I want to make sure that I link to your newly released TED Talk also as well. We'll put that in the show notes as we always And I just wanted to read just as context here so people get a feel for this. Bittersweetness is a tendency to states of longing, poignancy, and sorrow, an acute awareness of passing time, and a curiously piercing joy at the beauty of the world. It recognizes that light and dark, birth and death, bitter and sweet are forever paired. If you've ever wondered why you like sad music, If you find comfort and inspiration in a rainy day, if you react intensely to music, art, nature, beauty, then you probably identify with the bittersweet state of mind. I can't recommend this book highly enough, Susan. So thank you again. Thank you for all your research. I know this book has been a work in progress for how long now?

Oh, yes. I mean, you know, Jim, this is my way. So this book is, I'm going to say, a 5-year quest because Wow. Let's get it down to 5 years. It's probably honestly more like 6 or 7 years in the making and maybe a whole lifetime in the making. Yeah, it was a kind of quest that I went on to grasp the power of a bittersweet, and even you could call it a melancholic state of mind. And it just came from an intuition that I had that this was a deep-seated way of being. And what I found is that there really is a bittersweet tradition out there, that spans across centuries and across continents, and you can find it in all of our artistic and wisdom traditions. And this bittersweet tradition tells us that we are creatures who are born to transform pain into beauty, and that bittersweetness is, it's the best gateway that we have to creativity and connection and love. And we're living in a culture that is telling us, be happy, act happy all the time. And that's really doing us a great disservice because it's robbing us of half of what human experience is and the half that is paradoxically connected to our most deeply cherished aspects of connection and love.

And you talk about the paradox of tragedy. Why is it that we find beauty in sorrow and heartache and longing? How does that connect us to To the Wanderers.

Yeah. I mean, so in some ways this book actually started with, with a very specific question, which is that all my life I have been— I mean, I love all kinds of music. I love dance music. I love happy music. But I will say all my life I have been attracted to minor key music, like any music that expresses a kind of deep sense of yearning. Leonard Cohen is my patron saint. I love him. All my life I have been trying to figure out Why it is that music that is ostensibly sad did not really make me feel sad. Instead, it made me feel kind of uplifted, and it gave me a sense of communion with all the other people who have known the sorrow that the musician is clearly trying to express.

Yeah.

And a kind of awe that music could actually take something that clearly begins in heartache and then transform it into something so spectacularly, miraculously beautiful. I just wanted to understand what the heck was going on there. And so at first it started out as this kind of narrow question of, well, why do we like sad songs? But I quickly realized that it was much, much bigger than that. And it's really about a kind of way of being in the world that we are taught not to embrace, but that our artists and writers, thinkers, theologians have for centuries been telling us is kind of The Hidden Pathway to Transcendence and Connection.

It must have been interesting for you to find out that you weren't alone. And when that experience that you have when you listen to sad music and found that connection to others, connection to yourself also as well, did your research show this as well?

Yeah, yeah, that's right. So it turns out researchers, psychologists, neuroscientists have been looking at this exact question because I'm not alone. So we know that people will listen to The happy songs on their playlists 175 times, but they'll listen to the sad songs 800 times.

Wow.

Yeah. And they tell researchers, they tell them the same thing I just told you. They say that they associate sad music with wonder and awe and transcendence. Researchers call it the sublime emotions. But the thing is, it's not just music. I mean, as you said, there's the paradox of tragedy. Why do we like rainy days? Why do we like movies that make us cry? Why do the Japanese, and we to some extent, love cherry blossoms the way that we do? They're beautiful flowers, but the reason that we love them in the urgent way that we do is because these are flowers that die quickly. And there's something about that combination of the beauty and the impermanence that is speaking to us about a very deep truth of our natures. And there's something about the fact that we are all in this together, in this state of living in a deeply beautiful yet deeply imperfect world that will sometimes break your heart. We're all together in that kind of sense of exile. That gives us a sense of deep communion that we're not paying enough attention to, especially in these times that are so, you know, so fraught and so divided. To have that division sitting alongside a culture that's telling us, be positive all the time.

Yeah.

It's like, it's robbing us of one of the most potent tools that we have to actually see each other and love each other.

And, I want to talk a little bit about positivity because a lot of you see memes and inspiration and sometimes I'm guilty of this also as well. Everyone wants to have a positive mental attitude and they just put a smile on your face and you kind of take charge of that situation. But, your research has found that there's a place for that and also we have a spectrum of emotions and they all serve You know, a deeper purpose.

Yeah, that's right. So one of the researchers who I talk about in the book, her name is Laura Carstensen, and she has actually found that older people tend to be happier, feel more gratitude, less prone to irritation and anger, you know, in connection with the deeper side of life. Kind of some of the stereotypes, I suppose, you would hear about age being associated with wisdom. But here's the thing, she found that This wisdom, quote, has nothing to do with age per se. What it has to do with is the fact that older people are more in touch with the fragility of life simply because they have fewer years left. But when she looked at people who had other— young people who had other reasons of their own to be in touch with the fragility of life, they had those same characteristics as the older people.

Interesting.

So this is a wisdom and a happiness that we could all be in touch with. But it just requires being able to look the fragility of life in the eye and not run from it screaming or terrified, but instead to see the beauty in it.

When you were writing the book, did you write it for someone specific? Who would you like to read this book?

I wrote this for all the people out there who have had this sense all their lives, just as I had, and felt that there was something vaguely wrong with it. So there's an interesting connection between this book and Quiet.

Yes.

After I published Quiet, I ever since have been inundated with letters from people who use 2 words to describe the effect the book had on them. The words are permission and validation. They felt like a sense of validation that they could finally be who they are. And the fascinating thing is that with Bittersweet, I'm getting the same letters. Already, you know, from people who have gotten early copies of the book, permission and validation. In mainstream psychology right now, we don't even have a way to talk about melancholy. It's seen as being a synonym for depression, when in fact these are completely different states. I'm writing for the person who looks at something beautiful, whether it's a painting or a waterfall or a child splashing in a puddle of rain, And tears come to their eyes. And who is that person and why are the tears coming to their eyes? And the reason is that when we see intense beauty, it is reminding us of our sense that there is a perfect and beautiful world out there from which we feel we've been banished in some way. And the tears are like the gap between that miraculous world and the one that we feel. that we inhabit. And that might sound like a depressing thing, but in fact, that state, that awareness of that gap, that sensitivity to beauty is what propels us to do great acts of creativity or healing or whatever that brings us in touch with the world that we long for. And so I'm writing for that person. I'm writing for the person who knows what it is to cry at the sight of deep beauty.

I just got goosebumps. I call them truth bumps.

Oh my gosh, that's the best. That's the best word for it. I've never heard that before.

Can I ask if you've— when you were doing your research, was there anything surprising to you? Did anything stand out in that process? Any examples or data that came from it or stories that came from it that gave you maybe not necessarily shock, but you were in awe of or maybe you weren't expecting?

What's interesting is what's under the surface of people once they truly tell you their stories.

Hmm.

And I saw this again and again with my research. So for example, in one of the chapters, I interview one of our great psychologists. His name is Dacher Keltner. If you meet Dacher one day, just passing, let's say at a party, he will strike you. You know, he's got like flowing blonde hair. He has a very athletic surfer aura. He has a big smile. He seems like kind of just like the essence of Pure joy and warmth. And he is those things. But when you sit and talk to him, he'll tell you that sadness is at the core of who he is and that that's part of his temperament. It's also part of his upbringing. I mean, I tell his story at some length in the book, but it turns out that it's no accident that some of the research he's done has shown us that humans bond with each other in part because we respond to each other's sorrow. This is because evolutionarily, we are primed to respond to the cries of But that means we don't only respond to the cries of our own babies, we end up being primed to respond to the distress of any other being. And of course, we don't always get this right and it's not always perfect, but this is part of who we are. And Dacher has shown that this is embedded into our nervous system. Like, we have a vagus nerve, which is the biggest bundle of nerves in our bodies, and it's responsible for our breathing and our digestion and so our most fundamental drives. And it's also our vagus nerve that responds when we see another person in sorrow, like our vagus nerve becomes activated in sympathy. So this is a very fundamental part of us. And again, this research comes from somebody who presents on the surface as a pure beacon of positivity, which is also who Dacher is, but he's bittersweet as we all are. And I guess that's one of those things that just surprises me over and over and over again is the way— is the vast difference between the way we present to each other and what we're truly feeling. And I could give you a lot of examples of that that I talk about in the book.

I highly recommend everyone get their copy today. The book is incredibly inspiring and deeply insightful. In terms of when people are finished reading the book, is there something that you would hope is different before, maybe who they were before they were reading it and maybe afterwards? And maybe, and I don't know, maybe it's in their perception, in their mindset, maybe the way they're viewing themselves or viewing things outside of them, or maybe a small behavior you would like them to make a shift in, or?

Oh my God, there's so many things. I guess I'll give you 2 for now. So one is that we are taught in our culture that the main road is when everything's going well, your job's going well, you've got good health, everything's good. peace, everything. And that when bad health comes or something happens in your work or whatever it is, that that's like a detour off the main road. And that is a fundamental misperception of life that does us a great disservice. It is all the main road, the joys and the sorrows together, they are all the main road. So all the emotional resistance we have when terrible things happen, The thing is terrible, yes, but part of what makes it terrible is the resistance we have, the kind of, why me? Why is this happening? Instead of accepting that it's all the main road. And that's a very liberating perception that can really help us when those moments come. The second thing I will say is because we're all at some point going to experience not only joy, but also sorrow, there's the question of what do we do when the pain comes? And we have 2 choices really. It's a kind of fork in the road. And one choice is not to fully accept it, And then we end up taking it out either on ourselves down the road or on somebody else. Or we have the choice of looking at the pain, saying, this sucks, I don't like it, but how can I turn it into something else? Whether trying to heal somebody else who has suffered that same pain down the road, or maybe through turning it into some kind of a work of art, by which I don't mean you have to go out and become the next world-famous artist. It can be a small act of beauty that you create just sitting inside your house. I would say whatever pain you can't get rid of, make it your creative offering.

I love that. I love that so much. And this could also enable us— same thing with quiet. Not only did I gain so much insight about myself, but also in the people around me. And so when other people are going through struggles, Or adversity or some kind of difficulty. You talk about how— I really do believe that bittersweet can bring us together in deep and real unexpected ways.

Well, thank you so much.

I feel like everyone needs to go get this book right now because it's same as Quiet, where with Quiet, I felt like it gave me insight to get Mm-hmm. But it also gave me permission to be myself also as well, which is, which is incredibly— you used the word liberating, you know, where I feel like I could, I could be more free and you could surrender to that. And when you're going through difficult times, you know, to be able to, to lean into it and be able to experience that and then use that also as an opportunity for, for introspection, for growth, for healing, for tapping, connecting more with our more purpose and connecting more with others also as well.

And I guess I would also say, for anyone who's listening who does feel like, oh yeah, I am that kind of person who really likes to listen to sad music, or I do love rainy days, and why do I love that? And I'll tell you, we did a bittersweet quiz that we came up with for the book and found that people who score high in this tendency to bittersweet states of mind like this, it's associated with a lot of different things that are interesting.

Like what?

It's associated with high sensitivity. It's also associated with a predisposition to absorption, which is a state that leads to creativity. Also to states of awe, wonder, transcendence, kind of to a spiritual state of mind. So, and that's not actually surprising to me because to me, that's like full circle to where I began, which is the experience of listening to that kind of music and feeling like it's tapping into a kind of religious impulse. And for some people, this experience is expressed explicitly through the longing for whether it's Mecca or Zion, or the Sufis call it beloved of the soul. It's like a longing for that better world. So for some people, it's explicitly religious. For some people, it takes different manifestations. But at the end of the day, it's all getting back to a state of mind that connects us to transcendence. So I just want to say to the bittersweet people out there listening, there's something to the way you're feeling.

Yeah. And connects us to, to the wondrous, really.

To the wondrous. Exactly. Exactly.

Absolutely. I, I love this so much, Susan. We're gonna put links to everything in our show notes. People can find that as always at jimkwik.com/notes. I wanna link especially to, uh, the newly released, uh, TED Talk that you have, which talks about the hidden power of sad songs and, and rainy days. And also on Spotify, you, you have a playlist for, for bittersweet.

I do, I do. I have a playlist of some of my favorite bittersweet music. Um, right now it's the top 40, but I intend to be adding to it over the years because, as I said to you before we started, I have an endless list of music for this, uh, for this state of mind.

So amazing. And then they could get their copy of Bittersweet where— wherever books are sold.

Yes, so you can get your copy of the book wherever books are sold. You can come to my website, which is susancain.net. And, there's a page right on there that will lead you to Amazon or your favorite independent bookstores and also to join my newsletter.

I bought 3 copies just right before we started recording, and I recommend everyone do the same. So, wherever you're consuming this, engaging with this content, whether it's iTunes or Spotify, social media, maybe it happens to be on YouTube, I would I would ask everyone to take a screenshot of this and post it and tag Susan, tag myself also as well, so we get to see it. And maybe we could ask them one question that they could put in the post while they're sharing this conversation with their friends and followers. What would you like to ask everybody?

Yeah, I guess one question we can ask is, do you find comfort or inspiration in a rainy day?

Yeah. And any of those things, I'd be interested for people to share if something in In their experience, something, you know, a bittersweet experience that they have, and tag us so we get to see it.

Yeah, that's actually another good question, which is what is a great— what is a bittersweet moment or experience you've had?

So people can take their pick. Make sure you tag us in it so we get to see it. I'll repost some of my favorites. And those 3 books that I got, I'll give 2 of them away to somebody in our community. And I encourage everyone to do the same. Get multiple copies of Bittersweet, you know, one for yourself, But you learn, you know, I always think that you, you learn so that you could be able to share with other people so you could be able to teach. And one of the best ways, I think this is an— this makes an amazing gift for people. It'll open their eyes again, like it did for me in their, their minds and also, also their hearts. So.

Oh, Jim, thank you so much. I mean, this has been a labor of love for so many years. So to know that it connected with you in this way is just the most amazing feeling. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Susan, thank you for writing this book and all the research and for sharing it with, with so many people who will be rewarded and benefit from it. Thank you everyone who's listening. As always, make sure you share this episode, leave a review if you feel compelled to. And I'm your brain coach, Jim Kwik, and we'll see you in our next episode. Remember to be limitless. Hi, Kwik Brain, it's your brain coach. I want to thank you so much for watching this video. 3 things to do. Number 1, make sure you share this because when you teach something, you get to learn it twice. Update your learning so you get Update other people's learning as well. Number two, make sure you subscribe to this channel so you don't miss a thing. Because if you miss a video, you miss a lot. And finally, make sure you hit that bell so you're notified and you find out when we put out the latest and the greatest. One extra thing: if you want really close attention, then text me. Here is my phone number: three one zero two nine nine nine three. Did you remember that number? 310-299-9362. Shoot me a text and we'll stay in touch. Ask me your burning question. And I wish your days be full of lots of life, lots of love, lots of laughter, and always lots of learning. I'll see you in our next video. Bye.