Why We Forget & How to Remember | Charan Ranganath & Jim Kwik

Memory is a resource. It's the perfect copilot, but you don't want it in the driver's seat.

Our memories make us who we are, but how does the brain actually record and retrieve the past?

The remembering self is different from that experiencing self. Our remembering self makes the choices, and we can make the choices that will give us the best memories. Memory can also give us options.

How do memories get distorted, deleted, or generalized, or even lost?

Just the act of pulling up a memory can induce Some plasticity and can make a memory stronger just by virtue of having pulled it up.

And find out why all-nighters are the worst things that students can do for their brains.

Cramming and doing an all-nighter has so many bad effects.

We're going to discover the surprising ways our brains transform memories and use them to understand the present and imagine the future.

There's this Extraordinary overlap in the brain between the brain systems that allow you to remember and the brain systems that allow you to imagine.

School teaches you what to learn— math, history, science, Spanish— but there are very few classes on how to learn.

Human creativity is based on our lived experiences. ChatGPT has not been in the world, but you and I have.

What is the link between music and memory?

Music is also effective because it brings out arousal often. It brings out energy. It evokes emotion.

Why do people forget things and what can we do to remember them better?

There's 2 big basic factors. So one is—

Welcome back, Kwik Brains. I'm your host and your brain coach, Jim Kwik. To forget is to be human, yet forgetting is one of the most puzzling and sometimes frustrating aspects of the human experience. So it's natural to ask, why do we remember some events and things and forget others? We tend to believe that we can somehow should remember anything we want, but the reality is that we are designed actually to forget. And so our guest today is Charan Ranganath. He is a professor of psychology and neuroscience and director of the Dynamic Memory Lab at the University of California at Davis. For over 25 years, he has studied the mechanisms in the brain that allow us to remember past events. He is also the author of the brand new book, Why We Remember: Unlocking Memory's Power to Hold On to What Matters. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Jim.

Yeah, so I've been really looking forward to this, really enjoyed your book. I highly recommend that our community gets their copy and gets 2 copies. So we say get one for yourself and then one to gift. You know, my friends know the best gift to give me are books. But what we're going to talk today, everybody, is really discussing why we forget things and remember things and what we could do to remember things better. So I want to jump into this. According to your book, memories are less useful for remembering the past And more useful for predicting the future. Maybe we could start there and you could elaborate on that idea.

Yeah. Um, I think, first of all, I think it's your book and mine are probably a great companion package because I think, uh, your book is all about how to remember the things that you need. And my book is basically saying that memory is about carrying the things that you need and not everything. And I think this is a big misconception people have is that we should be able to replay the entire past exactly as it happened. And really, our brains are designed to carry the most important, biologically important, and the most meaningful information and to be able to deploy it really rapidly. So episodic memory, which is what I study in particular, is very important because it's about the present and the future, really. So you and I were talking just before we started recording about our various air travel things as part of our lifestyle. And you probably have this experience waking up in a random hotel room at some point and just asking yourself, where am I?

Right? Yeah. Which is, which is kind of embarrassing for a memory coach or a memory expert like yourself.

But, you know, but the thing is, is that you snap out of it very quickly.

Yeah.

And you can say to yourself, okay, well, here I am. I'm in London today, or I'm in Singapore today, or wherever it is you happen to be. And That's based on memory. That ability to remember is keeping you grounded in time. And then what happens is, okay, you're up for a little while, you're jet-lagged, and so you start to think, okay, what am I going to do today? You use memory to fill in those blanks and plug in the schedule for today. And so these are just super simple examples, right? But now I'll give you just an example from my own life about a big life choice I made, which was I'd finished grad school. I was choosing between going into clinical psychology or going into research. And I had an internship offer that could have given me a very lucrative career clinically. And I asked myself, well, what do I enjoy the most, clinical work or research? And I started to ask myself, okay, well, what are the contexts? What are some past events that I could think of from my recent work in the clinic? And it brought back a lot of memories of having to be dressed up, being sleepy because I was there early in the morning, being, you know, thinking about and worrying about my patients and so forth. And then I brought back memories of my last times in the lab and thinking about staying up late, hanging out with these guys and eating pizza and putting, you know, putting together posters for a conference. And I was like, well, that's the environment for me. It's not for everyone, but it was for me. And so. It was just an act of mental time travel, so to speak, that allowed me to pull up all these instances and say, what's the context that makes me happiest? And I think this is the power of memory for these small decisions and the big decisions to keep us grounded in space and time and give us potential from our past.

You use the word decisions, and I think people underestimate how important the role of memory has in making our choices. There's a quote in my book Limitless from a French philosopher that says life is the letter C between the letters B and D, where B stands for birth and D is death. Life, C, is choice.

Mm-hmm.

You know, that these difficult times, they could distract us. These difficult times, they could diminish us, or these difficult times, they could develop us. We ultimately decide. But in order to make good choices, it's based on, you know, the scheme of the, the body of wisdom that we've accumulated up to this point, our experiences. That means, you know, that presumes people remember it if they learned it, right? What role have you found that memory plays in us making wise choices or decisions?

Well, at the beginning of my book, I quoted Danny Kahneman's research. And so Kahneman makes this really beautiful distinction between what he called the experiencing self and the remembering self. And so just as an example, you go on a vacation and let's say you have kids or something like that and going on vacation with kids is Stressful. It's so stressful. You, you sit around and you like are standing in line at airport security. You're like packing these giant bags, standing in the rental car line. There's just so much lines, traffic, hassles. But then you make the next choice of, okay, what am I going to do this winter? And you go, well, let's take a vacation with the family because what you remember, the remembering self is different from that experiencing self. And so yes, the experiencing self suffered. From all these negative things, but the remembering self carries forward these great memories of sitting with your kid at the beach or, you know, being able to go to this nice dinner and look, watch the sunset over the ocean. And so he argued that the remembering self is what makes those choices. And to Danny, that's irrational and not necessarily a good thing. But to me, in a mindful sense, that's a very good thing because that's all we have from our experiences. Is the memory that we carry from, right? And so one way of thinking about it is, is that yes, our remembering self makes the choices and we can make the choices that will give us the best memories, right? Memory can also give us options. So memory can tell us, hey, I'm not feeling like, you know, stressed out now, but I know when I give a talk in front of a big audience, I'm going to be stressed out. So what can I do about this? And I can prepare. And so if you allow yourself to bring back experiences that don't match up where you have now, again, memory can give you more options and allow you to work around these things. I think where we get stuck is memory creeps into our decisions and we don't realize it. Right. And so that's what I really try to say in my book is that memory is a resource. It's The perfect copilot, but you don't want it in the driver's seat.

That's what's well stated. You know, there's research that shows our brains are vulnerable to misinformation, you know, at the moment of remembering, which can lead to some kind of memory alteration, right? We delete or we distort, or maybe you could explain this a little bit to our listeners.

Yeah. So the act of remembering in and of itself is not a replay of the past. And so I I talk a lot about this in my book. It's one of my favorite topics is that there's this extraordinary overlap in the brain between the brain systems that allow you to remember and the brain systems that allow you to imagine. And the reason for this is our brains are fairly optimized, right? It's like, unlike, let's say ChatGPT, which just grabs every pixel of everything that it gets, we're very optimized to get the information that's new, surprising, emotionally significant. And then we pack in a lot of prior knowledge that we use to fill in the gaps of our memories. So that usually helps us out just fine, but sometimes errors can creep in. And the thing is, is that the act of remembering in and of itself can change the memory. So it's again, not like replaying something as you would on a computer. It's really an act of imagination that then can record a new memory. And so what happens if you recall on the same event over and over and over again, new information can become incorporated. Now, if I share a memory with you and you tell me, hey, don't you remember, like, at the end of that night, you got, uh, you know, you passed out in the gutter and like a policeman came in and I had to pull you away from them or something. I'll say you're just messing with me, right? And, uh, but next time I remember. That event, I might go, yeah, oh, I remember waking up in the gutter, blah, blah, blah. Not because that is part of the original event, nor is it really a false memory. It's a memory of what you told me being inappropriately lumped in or inserted into my memory of what happened. And so this is where memory can get us in trouble. The same factors that allow us to go, hey, I know right now you've moved, you're in a new location, are the same factors that allow me to go, Oh man, that restaurant that I thought was so great, I got food poisoning after it. So I don't want to go back there. You know, these things that allow us to update our memories are also the things that can get us into trouble. So there's a good and a bad side to it.

It's interesting that memory is not taught in school, right? And at least in American education system, they teach you 3 Rs, reading, writing, arithmetic. Obviously spelling is not one of them. You know, there was no class called retention or recall. What are your thoughts? You know, Socrates said learning is remembering. What's your thoughts in terms of, you know, the global education system for children when it comes to maybe testing or information retention, this kind of error-driven learning versus passive memorization?

Yeah, I have so many thoughts on this topic. I'll try to— I'll just try to pick a couple of them because I think you and I could probably go on for hours about this topic. I think that a big problem, as you alluded to, is the fact that the so-called best students and the worst students differ, in my opinion, a lot by study habits and a lot by their either natural or their learned way of learning how to learn. And I think this is a huge problem because every kid has the potential to learn. Every kid's brain is so plastic. And even kids who suffer from learning disabilities, many of those times the disability, so to speak, is a sensory processing issue. It's not a learning issue. And so I really do think that teaching people memory skills is important, and the science of memory offers a lot. You mentioned this topic of error-driven learning, which is like basically a chapter in my book, and that's something I also feel very passionately about. The idea there is if you're trying to memorize, if you're trying to study for a test, or if you're practicing for a play, you do the best when you actually subject yourself to a struggle to learn the information. And what I mean by that is, is that let's say if you're trying to memorize a bunch of words for an upcoming, like, trip to Spain and you're trying to memorize Spanish, if you space out your study sessions, what happens is the next time you see those Spanish words, and let's say if it's a day after you originally did it, as opposed to an hour after you did it, or let's say you space it out even more, like once a week or something like that, that moment of pulling up the Spanish lesson will be harder because you will have less memory saved up, so to speak, from the time before. And so spacing out these things, actually, that struggle in our computational models, what it suggests is it allows the brain to rewire those memories so that they're more resilient and they can be expressed in more than one place and more than one time so that it's no longer an act of, oh, what was I studying 2 weeks ago? It's like something that's just will pop into mind very easily. And the best way to do it is to test yourself rather than studying. So if I wanted to, uh, test you on, let's say, uh, how to say trip in Spanish. I could tell you before you've even learned the word, I would say, tell me what you think the word viaje means. And so you could come up with some English word and I would say, nope, it means trip, uh, like a vacation or a business trip or whatever. And so that act of testing you even before you learned it allows your brain to wire itself in a more optimal way to get out just the word that's correct and wipe out these competing words. And so it's a very powerful phenomenon. But all these techniques that allow you to remember better also require a bit of effort. And I think the expectation people have is that remembering should be effortless. So if you tell me your name and I just repeat your name a couple of times, I go, I got it. I'm totally confident. And then a week later, I have no memory of your name. Not you, but I'm just saying.

All right.

Somebody I meet, right? And, uh, and I think that's the issue is, is that, and so if we go back to education, think of a kid who's getting straight A's in school. They're just coasting through. They don't need to study for the test. They're not learning anything. On the other hand, in theory, the kid who's struggling, but if they're using good study habits and they're earnest and trying hard and getting the support they need and they're getting feedback from the teacher, that kid's learning. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I mean, optimally you get a B+ or B. That would be optimal in terms of learning the most out of every hour you're putting in.

And I want to highlight that for our listeners because you're right. Sometimes if we're learning or hearing something and we're not, we don't have to exert effort, then sometimes we're just validating what we already know, but we really don't know it unless we could actively retrieve it. Right. And with challenge comes change. and learning like life could be sometimes messy, similar to doing exercise, right? If you're not straining yourself or pushing yourself, there might not be that kind of growth. And then it's interesting in school when working with students, everything from pulling all-nighters, right? And we could talk about the efficacy of that because I think a lot of people don't study to remember so much as they do cram to eventually just forget the next morning where you think they don't study and they just pull an all-nighter and the next morning. morning, nobody could talk to them at breakfast because they don't want anything spilling out of their mind. But then they fall victim to that forgetting curve where upwards of 80% is forgotten within 48 hours. Or even whether it's all-nighters or even 7 AM classes for some of these kids, their brains are still developing, might not necessarily be the sweet spot for people to learn.

Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree. These are all factors. And you mentioned sleep and just as that build onto that. I think cramming and doing an all-nighter has so many bad effects. Um, so one is, is that your memory then when you're tested will actually can be kind of better if you cram right before the test because the memories are glued to a place in time. And so if you're in a nearby place in time, you can access that memory easier. But now you're a week later. And you've still got this memory for this experience is glued to that place in that time, and you can't access it as easily. But if you actually space out your study sessions, now that memory, every time you retrieve it in a new place in a new time, you actually unglue it from any one context and you can access it from anywhere. And I think that's where that effort comes in. But then cramming is even worse because during sleep, your brain is actually working and it's working to make sense of your day's experiences. And I'm very compelled by a few different studies that have shown that it's not about just stabilizing the memories of the day, but trying to make sense of them and derive meaning from them. So it's like taking the information that you've just tried to memorize and incorporating it within this base of knowledge that you have so that you can express it and access it quickly. And again, that happens during sleep. And I think many of us have had this experience of being able to pull something up during sleep, whether it's something from memory or, uh, something that you've just a problem that you're trying to solve. And being able to do it after sleep, but not being able to do it before. So you're missing out on all those benefits. And then on top of it, sleep deprivation just wipes out the prefrontal cortex, wipes out the hippocampus, and you're under stress because you're sleep deprived and all that stuff's terrible for memory. So there's just, and then you mentioned 7:00 AM and it's like teenagers, especially their circadian rhythms are different than adults and they're not. going to be fully awake at 7 AM compared to an older person who tends to have an earlier body rhythm. So there's just so much going on. It's, it's really just, yeah, it's a very rich topic.

I find the topic of memory fascinating, um, for so many reasons, but it's interesting how school teaches you what to learn, math, history, science, Spanish, but there are very few classes on how to learn, right? There's no classes on how to focus, concentrate. It's like going to a child and say, study this or remember this, is like going to somebody and saying, play the ukulele or the didgeridoo, who's never had any kind of training on how to actually do that. I know people are going to want to know this question because we opened with it. So in your estimation then, and based on your research and study, why do people forget things? And what can we do to remember them better besides getting your book, my book, those kind of things, which I encourage. Remember to buy our books. Yes.

No. Yeah, there's many different things. I'll just give you a few.

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So, I mean, the why we forget part, there's a very basic— there's 2 big basic factors. So one is the information might not be biologically important. The things that we remember tend to be the ones that are biologically important. What I mean by that is they tend to be the things that evoke our emotions. So things that give us a sense of desire or happiness or attachment, things that scare us, things that, uh, where we're stressed, for instance. All these factors can promote plasticity in the brain and help a memory stick around. Then there's the things that are surprising, places that we go that are brand new where there's a lot of plasticity taking place. And as I mentioned, just the act of pulling up a memory can induce some plasticity and can make a memory stronger just by virtue of having pulled it up. So next week, if your listeners try to remember this conversation that they're listening to now, they will have a better memory for whatever they're able to pull up. So all these factors can help a memory stick around. But why do we forget? A big part of why we forget is, is that memory is competitive. It's not like, you know, if I put something on my phone, like a bunch of photos, As long as there's space, the photos don't compete with each other, right? But in my brain, they do. And that's part of the enormous economy of the way the human brain is. So 2 memories of you putting your keys in different places in the house will compete with each other. And if you go to the things that we forget the most, they tend to be the things where they're very competitive, like remembering where you put your keys or remembering names, right? So your name is Jim and You have a unique— Jim has a unique memory, I mean, association with your face, but I've met other people named Jim. So that word is not a cue that's uniquely tied to your face, right? And so what happens is there's a competition. When I see your face, I might be trying to access your name, but that name is associated with many other faces in my experience. Now, on top of it, there's no obvious relationship between the name Jim and your face, right?

Right.

You could very easily be named Alex or, you know, David.

Back then, you know, sometime in history ago, people were named Baker if they were maybe a baker. That was a profession. Or Taylor, Taylor, and, you know, and so on. Or Smith, maybe they were blacksmiths. But certainly we don't have those same associations today.

Yeah. And what's fascinating is that if I were to meet you and you were to tell me you were a baker, Normally giving you more information to memorize makes it harder to remember any of those things. But if I learn about you and you tell me you're a baker and you tell me where you live and so forth, now I have all this meaning around you. And that again makes it easier to remember your name. Strangely enough, we actually don't know the full extent of the biology behind that, but definitely there's something to locking into your knowledge that really helps.

There's this Baker-Baker paradox where the equivalent of— they'll have someone walk in the room, tell the group of people that my name is Baker. They'll leave and somebody come in and say, I am a baker. And then they'll quiz people in terms of what they— same word, same singular word, right?

Mm-hmm.

But far more people remember the occupation because you're right, there's emotion there. You can make assumptions based on that person's lifestyle, what time they wake up. And, you know, and there's all these imagery and potential emotions or smells that, that come along with it as opposed to a label, a name. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, honestly, there's a lot of things we don't know about why this happened, but you're absolutely right. That, that's a perfect example of, uh, and also there's a little bit of an arbitrariness when you get like a single fact, like I walk in and I I just say I'm a baker, you know, versus this holistic package of tying all these features together. So if you pull up one feature, what happens is you get all the others for free if they're all integrated.

Hmm.

The 2 key characteristics to remembering better are integration and distinctiveness. And so what I mean by that is if I'm trying to find a Post-it note on my, you know, table, one way to do it is to actually have that particular Post-it note be a unique color. If I have a bunch of yellow Post-it notes on my table, they're all going to look alike. There's too much competition. I'll never find the one I'm looking for. So having a pink one will really help rather than the yellow one. But now let's say I also sort my Post-it notes in different piles where I go, here's my passwords, here's phone numbers that I'm writing down, here's email addresses. I realize nobody does this anymore, but if you were and you organized it, that's even better.

Right.

Right. Because now every note has a particular place to go to. And so that's where basically most of the strategies that you teach people for mnemonics focus on distinctiveness and organization.

There's certain, definitely principles to better recall. You mentioned, the way I say it is like, we're not logical, but we are biological. So those survival traits are definitely in get encoded differently when you want to be able to remember it. When you mentioned feelings in the book, you'd mentioned feelings and the 5 primary senses to access a memory. But you also mentioned music could potentially be an incredible, powerful enabling tool, supportive tool in this process. What is the link between music and memory?

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you think about it, it goes all the way back to the Iliad and the Odyssey and Mahabharata and the Ramayana in my culture. It's these, this is how people would memorize huge amounts of information is they would make them into song. They make them into, you know, poetic meter. And so that's how they would be able to orally transmit so much information. And I think song has a bunch of characteristics. So there's just for singular events, let's say.

Hmm.

music can pull up a memory that seemed dormant because we often listen to music during particular times in our life. Let's say you broke up from a partner or something like that, and you spent your summer listening to this, to The Smiths or something.

Right.

You're wallowing in your depression or whatever. And that music now later on will bring you back to that particular time and place because the music is kind of this background context That pulls you in. Now, music is also effective because it brings out arousal often, it brings out energy, it evokes emotion. And again, all those factors bring up a unique mental context, but also can, under the right circumstances, enhance plasticity as well. But again, you're like, even otherwise, you're feeling sad and it's easier to bring up this, you know, and you hear, or you hear a Smiths song, it brings back that emotion. And that emotion is a fast route to that memory. So then there's another part of it, which is music acts as a kind of a structure. So people in the memorization field love to talk about the memory palace or the method of loci, where you take like a house and you sort of put things that you have to memorize, like people's names or something. individual rooms in a house and you mentally walk through. Well, for people who don't have a good mental imagery ability, music is just as good of a structure.

Yeah.

So there's a school of thought that says memory is somehow uniquely associated with space, and I don't believe that. I think music is a beautiful structure, at least for humans as well. And so you have, like, so for instance, I mean, there's so many songs from my life I could think of this. I still remember this episode of the sitcom Cheers where Sam is trying to remember stuff about Albania, and so his friend teaches him a song that just allows— and he puts the words to the song that goes like, Albania, you border on the Adriatic, your terrain is mostly mountainous, and your chief export is chrome. I didn't even try to remember that, and I could still report it.

It's similar to like, I challenge anyone listening to say the letters of the alphabet without actually singing the melody. Because it's so ingrained in how it was installed. It's kind of like information by itself is very forgettable, but information that was tied to those feelings become unforgettable. Like you mentioned, you could hear a few notes for a song on the radio and it could take you back to when you were a teenager. Or if it's not a sound, it could be a food or a fragrance that you taste or smell and it could take you back to when you were a child. And so, you know, we know olfactory is this very powerful connection also to memory. You mentioned VR as one part of an experiment. AI, just curious, your just thoughts, general thoughts and attitudes towards artificial intelligence and related to—

I have so many thoughts to that. Oh my God, I love this topic actually, because I think there's a lot of people, especially in my field, who are like, well, you know, AI is basically showing that the human brain is just a big deep neural network. And I think that's really just missing the point. I mean, AI in many ways is more capable. I mean, I don't like the word intelligence in the first place because I think it just comes with so much baggage and assumptions and really just holds people back from their true potential. But AI in particular, It's basically the model of AI is one of like, if you use the analogy of vehicles, right? Let's just say I want to carry as much junk as possible. I'd build a slow lumbering truck that consumes massive amounts of fuel. And once it starts going, try turning it and it takes a long time to turn and it takes a lot of effort to do so, right? And that's ChatGPT for you. It's a metaphor for ChatGPT, which is It takes gobs and gobs of data and its carbon footprint is gigantic. And once it learns something, trying to change it takes a long time. That's why it requires more and more data. Humans, on the other hand, are designed for extreme economy. We don't even see the entire world in front of us, right? So, if I give DALL-E images, it's reading in every pixel.

Hmm.

I, on the other hand, actually, will move my eyes around and only grab little bits of the environment and fill in the blanks with information that I already know about memory. So if I walk into a kitchen, I don't need every pixel of that kitchen. I just need to look in a few places to sample that world, right? So right off the bat, humans are doing much more with much less. And our power load is something like 12 to 20 watts, right? Compared to— nobody even publishes, I think, these stats on ChatGPT, but I'm sure it's horrible.

Right.

And then the second thing is we have this weird ability called episodic memory where I can draw on this one conversation that I've had with you and use it and express it somewhere else to make rapid inferences, to stop on a dime. Let's say, for instance, I have a very good friend and I found out that they've been, you know, just find out once that this person like was, you know, was actually lying to me about something. They just lied to me about one thing. That one experience should be enough for me to be a little more skeptical the next time they tell me something and maybe wonder what else have they been lying to me about. But if you're just statistically aggregating gobs and gobs of information, that doesn't work. And so, and if you think about creativity, human creativity is based on our lived experiences. ChatGPT has not been in the world.

Yeah.

But you and I have, you and I have just random coincidences of like, I don't know about you, but for me, like you have college and you live in a dorm with a diverse range of people who just happen to be lumped together. And you learn so much from those random lived experiences. And the more you can expose yourself to this diverse range of what I call training data, which is your episodic memory, and the more you try to seek out things are different in your readings and your friends and try to draw connections, the more creative I think you can be. And that's something that will keep us, at least for now, relevant in the age of AI.

Yeah. I mean, people hear about, you know, with technology, they're always upgrading their technology. They're getting the newest phone or they're updating their apps. But, you know, when's the last time we took time to upgrade the most important technology, arguably found between your ears? There's this 3-pound matter that has created all technology. And so this is fascinating because I could talk to you for a long time about creativity and memory. Maybe we could save that for a future episode. I want to thank you so much for being on our show. I want to recommend everybody gets their copy of Why We Remember: Unlocking Memory's Power to Hold On to What Matters.

Thank you.

Where can people stay in touch with you or get the book or social media websites?

Yeah, so if you want to get on my mailing list, you can go to charanranginath.com. Hopefully you can put on the website in case people have trouble spelling it. Yeah, yeah. Once they get the name, it will be memorable. It just takes a while to get learning curve stuff. That you could also go to The Memory Doc on Instagram where I post about events and I post content about how to improve memory. And I also am on Twitter. They can follow me @charnranganath there.

This is amazing. We'll put all of these listed on our show notes as we always do at jimkwik.com/notes, link to the book, to his website, to his social media, and a lot more. I encourage everyone to get their copy. You know, someone that has decades of experience and they put into a book and you sit down and read that book in a few days, you could download decades days, which is, you know, such, such an incredible, incredible advantage. And I just want to remind everybody, it's, you know, having a great— having lost my grandmother to Alzheimer's, you know, besides my TBI and a series of things that put me, you know, on this path, I want to remind everyone that just having a great memory is not just about memorizing facts and figures and formulas. You know, a lot of it is about remembering the times that you laughed, the times that you loved, the things that you learned in life, and the life we live are the lessons that we teach. So live an unforgettable life. I want to thank you again so much for being on our show. And it's been a real pleasure.

Thank you, Jim. And it's been great to share all this information with your listeners.

More to come, everybody. Make sure you leave a review and subscribe. We put the extended version of this episode, which is a lot more than 20 minutes, on our YouTube. Make sure you join our 1.5 million subscribers there. Ask your questions there. And until our next episode, remember to, to be limitless. Bye, everyone.