EO Thought Leadership Forum 004

Welcome to the EO Thought Leadership Forum, episode 4. My name is Joe Apfelbaum from EO Brooklyn. We have—

James Ashcroft from Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Awesome. So we're here today to talk a little about control. Awesome. What are the things in your life that you control?

Are you asking the question right now, Joe?

Yes, yes. What are the things that you control? What does control mean to you?

Man, self-control is my biggest, uh, obstacle, right?

But it's about control. Self-control is about control.

It is, it is, it is. Um, oh man, control. I, you know, I find that control is very elusive and it often lends me— leads me down to rabbit holes that I shouldn't be going down. Generally find that if I just relinquish control and let things flow, let people do what they should be doing, oftentimes find out that I'm not always the best at things. So letting control is actually the best solution for things.

So when it comes to thought leadership, if we think about thought leadership as an activity that we do, are we doing it to control people's attention? Are we doing it to control ourselves and how we— what we become and how we communicate what we are and our thoughts? Ultimately, everything, every relationship that we have is ultimately about being dominant and being submissive, right? One person's controlling the other person to some degree. No matter how you look at it, there's always some level of control there, like, especially when there's conflict, right? You think about conflict. 2 people, they're fighting. What are they fighting? If one person's completely submissive to the other person, there's no fight.

Right. So you're asking about thought leadership. So for me, um, when I write, uh, or when I talk in my accelerator group that I mentor, oftentimes it is for my own self-control. I need to go through a process in order to process my thoughts. So I would say for sure, for me, it's, uh, thought leadership is controlling my thoughts and getting them in line. How about you, Joe?

What about controlling other people's thoughts? So for me, definitely, definitely, um, you have to have a lot of self-control in order to sit down and write something. I mean, especially if you're an entrepreneur and you're all over the place, just sitting down, the process of just sitting down and taking your thoughts and organizing them and then editing them and making them in a way that other people can understand them is something that's very powerful. It's a powerful process to be able to do that. Makes you think on a different level.

Right.

But also there's, you know, we want to be, as an entrepreneur in general, we want to be in control of our own lives, right? You want to control your own time. You want to control your business, how, what you're selling, how you're selling it, what your message is. Usually the mission of the company or the why of the company is typically the— a very similar why of the founder and the collective why of the organization, like everybody's whys. You know, many times the why is the why of the founder, and then the how is the why of the other people actually executing what the founder's vision is. So if you think about it from that perspective, who's controlling it? The person asking the question is controlling the conversation, right?

Right.

So entrepreneurship, to some degree, It's about people who like to control things. I want to control my time. I want to control what I do. When you're writing out there, you're controlling the message and how somebody could possibly perceive it. You're creating this, this view for them. And it's a powerful feeling to be in control.

Is it? I mean—

I think it's powerful. It's scary to a lot of people. That power could be scary. But it's a powerful thing. You know, you're telling the sheep where to go. They're following your staff. It's power. There's power there. There's— it's more influence than power if you're comparing it between power and influence. Like telling people what to do is power. Influencing them, influencing them to do it is influence, is getting them to do something by their own accord. Right. So there's a difference. So not from that perspective, but the concept of being able to control something. Gives you a significant amount of power to some degree?

When I think of control, I think of it actually as not the most agreeable word. So I guess when you're asking me, am I controlling people through my writing? I'm putting out content, but I don't have any power of controlling how they interpret my content.

Not even to some degree. You don't even have— like, if you leave things open, you're giving things— you're giving people the ability for them to interpret it however they want, right?

Right. Yes.

So if you're closing it, if you proactively close the loop and say there is no other way to interpret this, this is what I said, it becomes very difficult for them to interpret it that way. It's like an innuendo. It's like, uh, A double, you know, it's a double, 2 different ways to pick something up.

But I leave my, I leave my writing open-ended. I actually edit it down in a way that leaves it open for interpretations.

So you're giving people the ability for them to control the way that they take it, but that's also a certain level of you controlling something.

I control the information flow. flow to a degree through the editing process in order for them to interpret my content.

To give other people control.

Into their own context. So that's a very conscious thing that I do. So I actually take out sentences sometimes if it boxes too much detail into what I think is best for them as a reader.

I know that you're very into saying like that you're an introvert and you like that book Quiet and all that. And, um, I was reading a little bit about the difference between an introvert and an extrovert recently. And one of the things that introverts do that extroverts don't do is that they ask closed-ended questions, is that they ask typically yes or no questions versus an extrovert. They typically ask more open-ended questions. more energy, like allowing them to, to just, you know, let's see what happens. Let's, let's go into an event. We don't know anybody there. Let's ask open-ended questions. The possibilities are endless.

Right. So you're an extrovert, right, Joe?

I feel like I am. I feel like—

Take the Myers-Briggs, right?

Okay.

Um, and, and, you know, I'll shoot you a link. That's because extroverts feed off the energy of other people. I feed off the energy within my own mind. So it's kind of like I, I, I've got like a Disney World amusement park going up there, right? So if I'm out around other people for too long, it's very draining for me. I need to go back to my room and recharge and think through the process, think through the day, think through everything, right? So an introvert is going to go out there and expend a ton of energy in a room to get to know everybody. and to put great vibes out there in order to maximize the engagement with other people. That's their fuel. Introverts, who are arguably 50% of society now that looking at the numbers, because everyone just— society leans towards extroverts. I mean, life of the party, go, you know, be the center of attention. All these things are very, very extroverted tendencies, but we're finding out there's more and more introverts out there, just not diagnosed introverts. Um, but, um, you know, to your point, yeah, I mean, uh, extroverts love that attention. I, I just don't.

So, so think talking about the word attention, you said the word attention, attention, attention, attention. And I know Gary Vee likes to talk a lot about attention and attention is like, you know, I'm in the attention business, right? I'm in the marketing business. So you think about attention, isn't attention about control? Isn't your thought leadership trying to invoke other people's attention and as a result controlling their attention to some degree? Here, read this, read this. I want to control you for a few minutes so that you could read this. Whatever comes out of this, I don't want to control that. I'm purposely leaving it open-ended so you can make your own decisions, but I want you to spend your time reading this. I want to control you for a few minutes and I want you to hear my message. Is there some level of control? Like, that's, that's like what I'm thinking.

Yeah, I, I don't know. I just don't think of it as control because everything, everything I've learned through managing my businesses has led me down a road of relinquishing control, putting the right people in the right seats on the bus, and then let— letting them loose to do what they do and not control them. So that's That's where I come from. So my writing now is, is kind of manifested out of that, is put out a thought, leave it quite open-ended to interpretation. Um, so if anything, Joe, I'd say it's the opposite of control, you know, for me.

Which still has a relationship with control. There's still a relationship there with control. The question is, are you doing the opposite? Are you doing, You know, are you doing one end of the spectrum or the other end of the spectrum? Right. So you're purposely opening it up so that you don't have control. You're purposely hiring people and you're giving them the control, or at least making them feel—

Yeah.

I mean, I have the control.

I get your point. I'm controlling a process, right? So I'm controlling the decision in order to put people in to manage themselves better.

Within a certain environment, within your company, within the framework of your company.

Yes.

Same thing with your thought leadership. You want to give people a certain amount of control within the framework of the article that you gave them, and ultimately you're controlling their attention to at least give them certain options. Like, I was thinking about this for my kids, right? When you give your kids— when you want your kid to do something, you could say, hey, go do that, right? A better way to get them to do it is to say, would you like to do this now, or would you like to do this in 15, 10 minutes, or whatever it is, or after you finish dinner? And typically it's much more likely that they'll listen to you if they're the ones making the decision.

Right.

Because they feel a sense of control over the answer. You're giving them the same— for you, it doesn't make a difference because you created that framework for them to be able to have that certain control. If you want, if somebody decided in your company, you give them unlimited control, right? And they decided they wanted to start doing things that are unethical against the values of your company. Or they just decided to do things that are just wasting time, effort, energy, and money. You'd fire them or you would, you would control them to some degree.

Right.

You would impose your control because they're going outside the framework of what you consider. I'm only allowed, you're only, I'm only allowed to let you do whatever you want within this fishbowl. If you reach outside the fishbowl, you're dead. You're dead. You're done. So there is a certain level of control that you're imposing. You don't have that control because you could do whatever you want. Obviously, there's government and there's other bigger fishbowls, but really, you're the entrepreneur. So you have more opportunity to do what you want to do with how you want to do it. So think about it from that perspective.

No, absolutely. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. Yes. At the end of the day, I control the process. I control the decisions on how my company is structured. I control the decisions on how to market my content when I write. Whatever those distribution mechanisms are, they can be on Medium, they can be on LinkedIn, they can be on Facebook. There's strategy for everything, and with strategy comes control for sure. You know, what people do outside of those rules is up to them. You know, I can just set up the structure. I guess that's why we have employees who come and go. We keep the ones Who play by the rules, the structures that we control.

So I'm just fascinated. Like this morning, I was just fascinated, fascinated by the whole idea that as entrepreneurs, we want to control things and that people in general, why, why somebody get angry when, when somebody cuts them off. There are 2 reasons why they get angry. Either they think that that person's trying to control them, or they think that that person's trying to control to some degree trying to control where they want to go. I need to get to point A to point B and this person is driving slowly. I'm getting really, really upset. Or this person's driving slowly on purpose to piss me off. So now I'm going to get really angry at that person because that person is trying to control me and I don't want to be controlled right now.

Right. But it's the same. You know, people have a fear of flying because they're not in control of the plane. For sure. For sure. There is definitely control. control issues that, you know, for, you know, like you said, anything from road rage and such. It's, it's, it's an interesting word you picked though, you know.

Very controversial.

Yeah. Yeah. So when you say to me, what do you like to control? You know, my first reaction is to step back and say, hey, you know, but you're right. In certain contexts, we do have control. And then I guess once we structure our businesses or, you know, our family lives or whatever it is to our liking.

Or even a thought leadership process or strategy.

Correct. Correct.

Ultimately, you're in control of what you want to write about, and you're also in control of who you're marketing it to, and you also control the framework that you create around it that gives people either, either the open-minded way to think, or it gives people your one-way opinion and doesn't allow them to think out of the box, which are all You having the ability to exercise your control on the outcome.

Correct. Very interesting point, Joe.

Which, which I think has to do with happiness ultimately. Like, if you're— if you really think about why you're doing thought leadership and why you're writing and why you have a business and why you're doing all the things that you're doing, ultimately you want to have peace, you want to have happiness. And it's through exercising your ability to control your outcome That gives you that sense of serenity, that sense of peace, knowing that ultimately I'm in charge of my emotions. I'm in charge of my time. I'm in charge of my future. I'm in charge of my skills because I can build whatever skills I want if I invest my time, my effort, and my energy to do that. So control really makes us happy at the end of the day. I mean, if you really want to be happy, think about how you're exercising your control.

Yeah, it's a great point. No, I agree with you completely. I mean, if you built a life where you own businesses, uh, you feel like you're in control of your finances, you're in control of a great marriage or whatever it is, or put, you know, you're in control of your kids in a healthy way. I mean, these are all great controlling issues you have.

And even, and even giving other people control is a sense of control. Think about that for a second. Taking a moment and allowing your wife to have her way, however you want it. She wants you to throw out the trash, take out the trash at a certain time, whatever she wants you to do, having her have her way or having, giving your employees the ability for them to control their future in whatever way that you can is a way of exercising control as well. But at the same time, giving somebody else, it's like a win-win, what you said before, right? It's a win. It becomes like a win-win.

I'm controlling.

other people and allowing them to control themselves at the same time.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, just on the thought leadership on the business side, I mean, the same thing with your employees. You want to create the frame— well, I like to create a framework where I'm in control of the structure and, uh, and my managers are in control of, you know, their executing and executing how in their own style. Within the parameters of expectations of culture and our core values and ultimately, you know, the bottom line of what we're trying to accomplish.

So it's a truly very exciting conversation that we just had, and I appreciate you taking the time to do it with me.

Sure.

I look forward to doing it again very soon. And this wraps up episode 4 of the EO Thought Leadership Forum. Thank you all for joining. And if you love this video, please share it, leave us a comment, Send us an email. Let us know what you think. I look forward to seeing all of you at the next show. Take care, everyone.