In this EO Thought Leadership Forum episode, host Joe Apfelbaum interviews entrepreneur and musician James Ashcroft about the deep role music plays in personal development, leadership, and business. James shares his lifelong musical journey—from early lessons on the oboe and piano to playing in bands and touring with professional musicians—illustrating how music became a universal language that fuels creativity and emotional resilience. The conversation explores how entrepreneurs can harness music for inspiration, stress relief, and authentic expression, emphasizing the importance of vulnerability (e.g., singing karaoke) and the parallel between disciplined musical practice and systematic business execution. They discuss deliberate practice, the 10,000‑hour concept, and the value of intentional failure as a catalyst for growth. The episode concludes with a call for listeners to share their favorite songs and consider stepping onto a stage—musical or otherwise—to unleash their soul and build entrepreneurial success.
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Hello everybody and welcome to the EO Thought Leadership Forum. This is episode number 14. My name is Joe Apfelbaum from EO Brooklyn.
And I'm James Ashcroft from EO South Florida. How you doing, Joe?
Good? I'm doing fantastic. Thank you so much, James. Today we are going to talk about music, writing music, playing music, the value of music, James, you could speak a lot about music. Talk to us. Tell us a little bit about music.
Oh, it's got a special place in my heart. So, Joe, I don't know whether you know that I've been playing music for, for most of my life. I started, uh, when I was living in England as a kid. You had to take a musical instrument. I actually started out with the oboe, believe it or not. It's a very odd instrument. And I was so bad, the teacher— I, I remember this— he, his face got bright red and he started screaming at me because I was so bad. So I took that as a cue to pick up another instrument. I started on piano probably around 7 or 8 years old, and I've been playing pretty much every day since.
Wow.
So it's been a long-time passion of mine. I was in some bands in Dallas in the mid-'90s and actually getting our band back together this Christmas holiday. So I'm very excited, very proud to be a part of that band. 3 of the 4 of us are professional musicians. including, uh, my guitarist Chris Holtz, who's the current lead guitarist on the Don Henley tour.
Wow.
So it goes to show you the kind of musicians I get to play with. So, uh, so I'm very, very inspired, um, with the thought of getting back to playing on stage with those guys. So music, music, it's the universal language, my friend. It speaks across all boundaries and barriers. I, I don't think there's anyone I mean, except for maybe some extreme outliers who don't enjoy music. Uh, it's, uh, it's the universal language. So what direction should we take this?
How important is music for an entrepreneur in general? Like, both to play it, to listen to it, to incorporate it in their development as a leader? Like, what, what does music do for you as a leader? I mean, you growing several companies, you've had an extensive background in music, how do you see music playing well for an entrepreneur, pun intended?
Wow, uh, what a question, man. Um, music. So the nuts and bolts. So sometimes when I'm contemplating things, I'll put on classical music. I find that it's a very soothing process to me. I can actually listen to— should we— should I get out my keyboard too?
Nice, nice. Yeah.
Getting some good chords going there.
Yeah.
So, um, so, uh, for me, I actually find classical music both soothing and sometimes if I'm really getting fired up and I'm writing or something, I'll put on some Beethoven or something and I get super inspired. You know, I talked to a developer friend of mine who programs, you know, he listens to, to, to very, you know, uh, you know, drum and beats music. That's what gets him going. For me, classical music, uh, could really, you know, get my, my soul fired up. So, I think it's a really healthy thing for you to do, to figure out what music gets you going. Man, as an entrepreneur, I mean, every angle of it. I'm in a mastermind with 2 amazing musicians. One is the lead singer from Saigon Kick, the band who had massive, massive hits. And the other one is the bass player from Vixen. And every time I hang out with them, I'm just completely inspired by the way they think and what amazing creativity they have in their businesses. So I think just the art and the practice of music is very entrepreneurial. I mean, it's— I don't know, it's hard to put into words, man. It's just a real special spot for me.
That itself, I would say, defines how important music is. The fact that it's hard to put into words, because sometimes when you want to emote, when you want to feel something, when you want your spirit to come out, when you want to put your soul, your heart and soul into a business, into an endeavor, into an objective, you need to leverage music to be able to do that. Because your soul doesn't dance to thoughts or ideas, your soul dances to music.
That's a great point. I mean, you, you got a much more eloquent way of saying it than I do. I mean, but I completely agree.
I'm in communications. I'm paid to do this.
Yeah, no, obviously, you know, it's, uh, it does, it makes your soul dance. And I think, I think everyone should get up on a stage at some point and sing, you know, go to karaoke and just, just let it go. Uh, just, yeah, actually, yeah. I mean, pick that song. That's a great one. Right. So, uh, and I think just getting out there and, and, uh, communicating from your soul, being vulnerable. We talk about this in the earlier podcasts about writing and being vulnerable. Get on stage and open your mouth and sing. I don't think it gets more vulnerable than that. I mean, people say that they'd rather die than public speak. I mean, there's like a, if you look at that, uh, you know, those surveys, like people are more afraid of public speaking than they are of dying. I mean, it's a huge thing. I mean, and I think on top of that, go up there and sing. I mean, that's an even smaller sample of people, you know, it's like, To go up there and sing is terrifying, but it makes you very vulnerable, and you get over it. People clap, you get on with it, you know. Um, play music on stage. I mean, just, just do something where you put yourself out there like that. It just, just brings—
Here's another thought. Here's another thought that you might appreciate. When I look at a business person, an entrepreneur that's really killing it, what stands, what stands between them and somebody who's kind of mediocre, who's, you know, playing the game not at 100%, the way that they're putting themselves out there. I think that, you know, if an entrepreneur is very intentional with hiring, with systems and processes, with selling, with just working hard and they're in their business, those are the people that are executing and getting things done. And the business owners that are kind of just like relying on luck and waiting for things to happen and hoping that it just works itself out and they're not organized and so on, and they're not taking time to learn, those are the ones that, you know, they're, they're living a mediocre way. And the same thing happens with musicians. If you want to be the best musician out there, you need to put yourself out there all the way. You need to let your soul— you can't be— imagine a guy on stage and he's kind of self-conscious and like sings and he's like, eh, eh, eh. No, he needs to let his soul just come out. He needs to let the spirit drive. And those are the most attractive musicians. And that's why musicians in general are so attractive. That's why in college A lot of students want to go play guitar because they want to get the honeys. And how do you get the honeys?
Absolutely.
By being the most attractive person. How do you become the most attractive person? By putting your passion and your soul out. It's not about knowing how to play guitar. There's a lot of very unattractive people that are very self-conscious that play guitar. It's about literally pouring your guts out onto the stage. And you don't have to have a great voice either, and you don't have to even play guitar well. You just need to let it Let it just be. Let it come out. Let it ooze out of you. Just like writing, you need to let it bleed out. You got to let the music bleed out of you. If you can do that, if you can do that, James, what happens?
Oh man, people are attracted to it and success follows. There's no doubt about it. You know, I think you hit the nail on the head, Joe. It's just, it's being super authentic with yourself and put yourself all out there and going for it. And, and just to put another parallel to music and business, you know, uh, there's a concept to, you know, Malcolm Gladwell obviously coined, you know, um, you know, on the 10,000 hours, um, deliberate practice. You have to practice. And the same thing with your business, you know, you have to have a system. It's not just going there and like tinkering around the ivories. It's actually coming up with a game plan, executing against that game plan every single day. The best musicians in the world, they play no more than 4, practice no more than 4 hours a day, but it's completely mapped out what they're gonna do from minute 1 to the 4th hour is completely mapped out. And I think in business, the more that you can be mapped out with your game plan and what you're gonna do and get consistently better every day, your business is gonna be an incredible success. You know, I really believe that. So it's just the awareness.
It's the way— I love this topic, James. I love the topic of bringing a concept that Most of you might think, oh, it's just music. No, I'd say no, it's music. You don't understand something. This is music. This is what drives our spirit. This is what makes us passionate. This is what gets us going. It's not just music, it's music. So if you never used an instrument before, if you've never danced before, if you've never played on stage before or sung on stage before, I challenge you to take a moment and think about Doing it, putting yourself out there, failing, but not failing like halfway, failing all the way, failing in a way that would make you very, very devastated if you failed. And that's the way that you build success when you use that type of failure.
Absolutely.
So with that, I want to end off this episode of the EO Call Leadership Forum. I welcome all of you to leave comments below. Let us know what you think and what's your favorite song. What song do you want to hear me and James play for you virtually? That would be fun. See you all next time. Take care, everyone.
