🏡💼 Architect of Profit: Unveiling Real Estate Success with Morgan Keim

I think they tell you, they're like, sound it out, let us know how to sound it out. Yeah, that's exactly what it— yeah. Hey, you guys, what's up? Welcome back to the podcast, The New and Experienced Investor Podcast. We are the real estate podcast that brings investors from all walks of life together. Do you mind silencing your phone, please?

Sure.

I'm Alex Barnett. I'm one of your hosts. I'm the new guy.

I'm Joe Homs, and I apologize for the phone. I had it on because I was expecting a call.

I know.

And I normally have it muted.

That's okay.

So it just like buzzes in my pocket.

Hey, but other investors hear us.

I can't hear it when it buzzes. So that's why, that's why I was on. That's my excuse.

That's good.

You know, buy it or don't buy it really doesn't matter to me.

Hey, people that know us know we sometimes we have to take a call at the most, uh, appropriate times ever. It's like, hey, I gotta get this. So they're like, all right, just go. Um, so super excited today. We got a guest, a special, special guest in studio today. So before we bring him on, let's go ahead and talk about our meetup we have coming up next week.

Did you introduce yourself? Did I miss that part? Yeah. Oh, I did.

So you did.

Sorry.

Too busy taking a phone call. I'm Joe Homs, Tech Experience Guy. Uh, meetup on Monday, Hangar 24, 6 o'clock. We're gonna have a prop stream there. Oh yeah, to demonstrate. Um, it's always an exciting time when they're there.

It is.

Yeah, you know, even with audience participation that wasn't asked for last time they were there. Yeah, we ended up getting some, um, audience participation.

Yeah, it gets people.

And I did, I did, uh, Burton is the one that speaks. I did warn him about that. I said, you know, I don't know if this person's going to show up again.

Okay.

He said, I hope so. He says, I love it when people do that. Yeah, I said okay. Yeah, so if you were at the last PropStream meetup and were very vocal, come back to this one Monday, 6 o'clock, Hangar 24. There you go.

Burton wants the hecklers.

Yeah, the heckler.

He likes hecklers.

That's what he said. He likes hecklers. Let's not heckle him, but yeah, okay, you can ask questions. You can.

But, uh, yeah, PropStream, it's a— it's— we use it every day pretty much in our business. So it's definitely something to, um, I guess, you know, get a full, like, uh, rundown by the guy, the main guy, and he can give you some lists that maybe you're not already hitting. So it's, it's definitely great. And there's a bunch of people there that are, you know, could be your future partners.

Yeah, and, and if you're a real estate agent and you don't have PropStream, you're missing out because there's a ton of leads there that you can go after, you know, absentee owners, just— and he'll talk about all that stuff. And he does talk about, you know, agents and, uh, you know, sourcing deals and cold calling and doing all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, be there, don't miss it.

Be there, baby. Um, but anywho, we're here today and we have a special guest, so let's go ahead and bring him on in. Morgan Keim, what's up, man?

What's going on, guys? How you doing?

Doing well.

Excellent.

Thanks so much for making it here.

Yeah, thank you for the invite.

Absolutely. So go ahead, um, introduce yourself to the audience. Let people know, uh, how you got into real estate. What were you doing before and what led you to there?

Awesome. So I have a pretty non-traditional background, but I've been a real estate investor passively for 12 years, a syndicator for 8, and a fund manager for the last 5. However, the bulk of that I was also spending in a full-time W-2 career, and it really kind of rounded out a lot of what I was working on in this high-growth startup environment that I was working in to ultimately kind of create more of a resilience and financial freedom area for my family to grow and thrive regardless of what would happen in my jobs. And I can go into all of that, but mainly my focus these days is really taking affordable housing and elevating the standard of that across America. I do that by targeting mid to large size multifamily properties that are mismanaged, underperforming, And really bring them back to life and bring life for the families that want to live in these properties while delivering substantial returns to our investors. So we ultimately are focused on outcomes for those tenants, outcomes for our investors, and really elevating that standard so that everybody can have a better life while simultaneously those that see that vision can have freedom for their own families.

Did you have anything to do with that project they just finished in LA that cost $600,000 per unit?

I did not, no.

Okay. Don't you think that's crazy?

It's—

How much, I mean, you're buying places, how much per unit are, at the end of the day, are these places?

Well, it's funny. I'm a pretty risk-averse guy. And that's a lot of what I did to first get my start as an investor was following my own risk aversion to buy properties that really can't get any cheaper. And I did that first in LA targeting multifamily investments at really, I would say no more than $100,000 a unit. Mm-hmm. Where I've subsequently expanded the focus to national markets where we tend to buy things at $30,000 to $60,000 a unit, which seems substantially lower, but the rents also kind of follow suit in a lot of these markets.

Right.

What you tend to find though, when you're in those brackets is, There's less sophistication, there's less managerial professionalism. Sometimes the mom and pops that own these places haven't raised rents in 40 years, and you have tenants paying $280, but also not getting the services they might want in those properties.

Right.

So there are a lot of opportunities nationally, um, as well as here in LA to just say, look, like, let's go in and let's, let's create a better environment for the people here. Um, ultimately have the rents kind of reflect that value proposition. And then ultimately recapitalize on those projects that can help the investors who back them.

Mm-hmm. Um, you said LA, I'm, I'm surprised. Are, are you still doing stuff in LA? I mean, I, I wouldn't if I were you.

Mm-hmm.

You know, but like it pencils out.

I, so my last deals that I syndicated into in LA were in, I think this last one was in 2018.

Okay.

Now these are, you know, again, this is about as affordable as you can find in areas that are up and coming. And ultimately we came around the bend of COVID with the rental restrictions, with all sorts of different local propositions and just kind of a decline in a lot of the submarkets from people in this sort of housing bracket leaving where there's actually a good amount of distress right now in the multifamily sector in LA. So we made a decision in 2020 that we would actually be better off targeting out of state, even if we live here.

Mm-hmm.

And accept, you know, both the risks and the rewards of doing that. Because frankly, the, the, the value proposition was better because we can actually go in and do the management we need to do. We can actually collect the rents that we need to collect to make sure that we don't go into a default situation that would otherwise give a worse outcome for those tenants and for the investors that are, that are backing the project. And so to that regard, we actually built our, like, a flagship fund in Cleveland, Ohio. Probably can't get a better price-to-rent type of market, ultimately buying small multifamily that were under the radar of private equity and the institutional buyers, but bigger than probably what the locals can afford and finding a nice niche where we could convert a lot of the local housing stock into Section 8 and subsidized housing, to the point that we're probably one of the biggest owners in the Cleveland market nationally at this point. But ultimately, we see cash flows in excess of 20% for this fund, which is, you know, we're in California, you're lucky to get 5% here.

Yeah.

And it very much overcompensates for the risk we had to take to go into a market And ultimately set up local management, make sure we're actively engaged in that community.

Yeah. And are those single families or are they multifamilies?

All multi.

Okay.

So we, but we focus on small multi, you know, you could really make a big difference here and say, I'm going after 100-unit buildings in Cleveland and you're competing with a more sophisticated buyer profile there that's gonna say maybe these are trading at 7 or 8 cap rates. For anybody who, you know, is trying to understand what a cap rate is, it's essentially the yield that you would get on the property based on what you pay for it. Instead, we are buying assets that are smaller than that average size, maybe, you know, 2 to 15 unit type buildings and buying them at a 15 cap, which means you're getting 15% back after your expenses on your buy price. That's some healthy cash flow.

Yeah.

And, you know, even if you have debt at 6 or 7%, your spread is, is, is enormous.

Yeah.

What was interesting though, you would think that that would come at a price, appreciation. You tend to see more appreciation in the past, like on the coast and that kind of thing. The reality of it is we started buying in 2020. We bought 22 properties in the first year and we saw on average the portfolio has appreciated more than 100%. Every single property since that point, when a lot of the national average has kind of stagnated since. So it really was sort of the best of both worlds.

And do you think the appreciation that you're getting from that was because you were buying substandard, you know, places and then bringing them back up to their glory, their potential?

Yeah, that was definitely part of it, Joe. You know, the forced appreciation of what we did to go into let's say Class C assets and turn them into Class B+. I mean, really pretty, pretty good for that, that market.

Mm-hmm.

To the point that we actually get called directly from the local subsidy offices saying, we have tenants, cuz we know you guys keep a much better housing stock. We're not gonna ever have our inspectors getting turned away cuz we know what you guys do. You know, they know us on a first name basis, but we also found that the investor demand and the, Really the, the dynamics of the market, rents have been going up there. People have moved in kind of into the middle of the country. They're going, they're chasing affordability. They're leaving high, high-priced, you know, generally coastal cities and, and going back into these markets. So where maybe the average rent on our properties was $700 or $750 per unit, now we're at $1,100, $1,150. That's the kind of rent growth you see in LA and SF.

Mm-hmm.

And we've seen it in a highly affordable market. So it really changed the thesis of how we think about things and going, you know, are things getting less expensive or more expensive these days? Do we want to be in a market where they really can't get any cheaper? Does that create a rent, a resilience in the types of approaches that we're taking to elevate the standard of affordable housing? And does it insulate and protect our investors' capital? If we can check those boxes, the upside can take care of itself, especially if we can find good assets at good prices that need some love, where we can go in and, and kind of bring that love to those assets.

Got it.

How are you finding these distressed situations?

You know, it's, it's, it's part— we should sit down and like have a conversation about how to build more of a systematized approach. But in my business, it's called Ocean Ridge Capital. We have 2 sides. There's an on-market side and an off-market side for deal sourcing. The on-market side is a lot of broker relations, outreach, aggressive underwriting, and LOI in a handful of key affordable national markets. And, you know, what we're finding is the multifamily environment, particularly for these on-market properties, is shifting a lot. There were sellers for a long time, the last three years, kind of holding out, saying, "Oh, my property is worth way, way, way more than what you know I would want to pay for it, and probably anybody could prudently underwrite." And that is changing right now a lot, especially in the last few months. But like it's intensifying. Like I think we're actually at like peak multifamily. of distress nationally where a lot of people bought properties in 2020 and 2021. They got 3-year loans, which is a really common product in multifamily, and those loans are up. We're in 2024 and the banks are saying, well, you know, maybe we can put a new one in at 7%.

Mm-hmm.

They go, well, I wasn't able to complete my business plan and 2/3 of this property still needs work and we can't support interest payments on those, and they're having to walk away at the loan balance.

Hmm.

A lot of the equity is being wiped out from their investors. So we're finding at this point probably more opportunity than I even have bandwidth and my team has bandwidth to capital raise and manage for. Now the off-market side gets really interesting because that's where you can score some serious value. You find mom and pop, they kind of don't even have a sense what It is worth, and you're ultimately able to find win-win propositions without paying brokers and all those things. And that we have a lot of opportunity, I think, to dig into, but we're early in our journey into building out those systems. I do think longer term, that's gonna be where our deal, our deal flow comes from. But today there's just a lot of opportunity and it's all coming due and we don't need to go very far to find it.

Are you, are you paying cash for these properties? Are you financing them? And then how long are you holding them for?

Yeah, so I'm a student of Pace Morby in the Sub2 group. I have a natural inclination to find creative finance whenever I can. That's just always how I look at things. That would be either, can the seller extend us financing? Can we find a way to actually buy this asset without putting any cash and then do the value proposition with the seller as a partner. Um, I'm, I'm always looking for those kinds of opportunities. Now that said, in this, this loan-do kind of setup that I described, that's not generally an option. Um, and it is more of a conventional buy. So we're right now talking with a number of different mortgage bankers, uh, the ones that work with the insurance companies, and then also just brokers that are looking at agency loans and things like that. to not just raise on singular deals, but to actually create a sort of a book of capital that we can draw from to take down 10 deals or 15 deals of substantial size. And these are all 50 to 250-unit type of deals. So, you know, it's not like I can go to my bank account and write the, write the cash offer. Um, one day if I'm lucky enough to be in that position, uh, you know, that'll, that'll be amazing.

But Alex, you can do that, can't you?

No.

You want to afford this on the first time?

You'll still go for the, how can I get this zero down and have the—

Always zero down.

Even if you have the money. That's great. Yeah, I'm sure the creative finance has given you so many opportunities that maybe other people passed on because you were able to figure out a situation to work with the seller and Solve their problem. I mean, that's, that's the one thing that's kind of a through line in real estate is you are the problem solver for these people. And if you can solve the problem at the right price, I guess, then you're gonna get the deal.

Yeah. Let's say you get a deal in Ohio or whatever, multifamily, you know, walk us through your process. Are, are you out there looking at the property? You know, do you have like boots on the ground that are doing that for you? What, what's that process look like? Yeah.

I mean, in the Cleveland market, we have a team, boots on the ground, property management, construction management. I have seen 2 of our properties in person. The rest of the portfolio I've never seen in my life other than Google Maps and, you know, pictures from these people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, we've never had a bad deal that way. We send people in that are much smarter than me about assessing condition of assets. We underwrite things very conservatively. And even when, you know, the stuff hits the fan, it's never been too bad because we've underwritten so conservatively that, you know, the worst comes to worst, you have to take this prop— you know, property down to the studs and maybe you're in it more than you, a little more than you expected, but it still, still cash flows and it's still worth it at the end of the day.

Hmm.

If it was a very large asset, let's say, you know, 50+ units, right? I would be out there. I think I wouldn't take that same approach. on a higher stakes purchase. I think you have to be there once or twice, but I, I wouldn't be flying out every weekend. You know, I have a family here, we have our own dynamic. And frankly, if you find the right experts and you're good at delegation, you know, that's, that's gonna be core to your strategy to win.

Mm-hmm.

Going back to, um, you know, these, these balloons that are coming due, is it like, how do you get caught in that situation? Is it people that were newer to syndication or what are you seeing as like the main cause of this? that they weren't able to achieve, you know, what they wanted in those 3 years.

You know, it's almost, um, I'm trying to think of the term for this. It's not like confirmation bias, but it's kind of that, that sort of cognitive dissonance where you just got used to doing something a certain way. Um, like everyone got used to doing these no asset, no income loans in 2007, right? It just became normal business practice. Oh, I gotta, I'm gonna go get 5 more houses. I make 30 grand a year. And it's like, you can't support the payments. And I think in the commercial world, a lot of people, they just are used to doing 3-year loans or adjustable rate loans. And they go, yeah, well, you know, I'm sure the rates will go up a little bit. What's gonna go from 2.5% to 3.5%? You know, a lot of these people didn't realize that this would ever go to 7% or, you know, wherever things went. We always looked— I'm very like skeptical on these things. And I'm, like I said, I'm risk averse. So We've never taken short-term loans, even for stabilization. I'll do like a 10-year loan. You know, people look at me like, why do you want this? But I want it because I don't ever want to have to force sell if it doesn't work on my timeline.

Right.

And just because you found a good asset, you know, it doesn't mean the time was right to take that asset, or it doesn't mean the business plan's going to work exactly as you think. Um, you know, for instance, uh, one of the sellers that we're talking with right now, has a situation where there was a substantial property damage claim that happened. Now, normally you could call insurance and have it fixed, but in this case, insurance only wanted to pay like 50% of the value, and the value was substantial. So then they had to bring in the public adjuster, then they had to fight the insurance company, then they had to take 'em to court.

Mm-hmm.

Before you know it, you've got inhabitable units. You're 2 years into your property. Your balloon's gonna expire.

Mm-hmm.

And what are you gonna do? You still need to get the money from the insurance company just to pay for the damage before you could start your renovation. So like, you could do this if you had a longer loan time, you could do a capital call if you absolutely had to. It's not ideal, but you're not gonna lose everybody's money. Whereas if you're stuck and you can't get that, that, that refinance, or the property's not gonna support it, you are out of options. It, it might be game over at that point. And so I'm seeing a lot of that in the market right now.

Yeah, 3 years seems quick. I mean, even on a single family, I'm not going less than like 5, 7 years on these seller finance balloons. You know?

What about for your flips though? Because those are hard money, right? Isn't that like a—

We're doing cash. Yeah. But as far as hard money, I mean, same sort of thing. We're pretty conservative where, you know, you try to write in like 6 months. Luckily, we were cash on the one that took 18 months.

No kidding.

Well, that was, that was actually, it wasn't cash. It was—

Oh yeah, no, it was sub-to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

So you did a sub-to?

We did, we did a sub-to, no money down.

Okay.

You know, we're dancing in the streets and, uh, and then the tenant hit us in the face with, I don't want to leave. And no, uh, that was the process of getting her out. The contractor went in and did a great job. in a timely manner. Then we put it on the market, got an offer, and then that fell apart.

Oh, geez.

And so then we had to go back in, and the second one was this close to falling apart.

3 escrows later.

That's, that, that's the problem with that one. But, um, yeah, thank God it wasn't totally cash. Yeah, it was, it was hard money there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the interest rate wasn't bad. I think it was like 3.5% or something. That's not bad. Yeah, it was very low. But still, you're paying out that, you know, every month.

Yep.

You know, so that adds up. But we did make money at the end of the day.

Still made money.

The producer thought we weren't going to make any money, I think, but we ended up making money.

Did you sell it as a cash transaction? Or did you seller finance it to them?

Oh, no, no, no, they got a new loan.

Okay.

Yeah.

Conventional.

So you wipe, you wipe out the sub-2 loans?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like this was in Riverside and you were talking about sophistication and stuff. We, we had to educate every real estate agent in the transaction what was going on and, and what to do and how to do it.

Yeah.

You know, to put that into the mix would like throw them over the edge.

Right.

You know, so yeah, we, we, we paid everybody off at the end of the day.

Yep.

Interesting.

And do you guys dabble with wraps ever?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. He's got—

We got a couple.

Yeah.

Just with mobile homes. We had our first introduction into like having a rental and running it ourselves. It ended up being a nightmare. So we were like, let's just be the bank on this one. And it's amazing, like passive income.

Good cash flow. Yeah, for sure.

It's as passive as you can get.

That's awesome. And you got a postcard the other day, I noticed, because I get them all the time. For my properties, you know, do you want to sell your, your note, your home or whatever? Yeah, you got a note one.

Yeah, yeah, I see note ones.

I see land as well. Okay, you know, if you've got any land out there, they want it for pennies on the dollar, but you got a note one.

We get those a lot.

Yeah, you should price it out. Yeah, see where it lands. I know, I'm curious what those things are because they, it, you know, it just feels funny. You have this mortgage. Yeah, and somebody else's name.

Right.

You're paying the spread between the mortgage and whatever the new person's paying your note on.

Yeah.

But how does somebody else value that situation?

Yeah.

Knowing that the bank could call at any time.

I already know what the call's going to be like. They're like, hey, so yeah.

Don't beat you up on this one.

Yeah. So what's going on? Like, really? Like, let me know. Like, what's your motivation?

That's actually where—

yeah.

Yeah.

It's the same.

That's right.

But it's actually really easy because, you know, let's say you're, you're making $500 a month on the note. They're going to offer you $2,000.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Yeah.

That's, that's what, you know, they're gonna say, well, this is what you want, your money now?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

We'll give you 2, you know?

Right. Yeah, it'd be interesting.

Yeah.

Well, well, our notes too are a little bit different because the properties we bought on seller finance, so we wrapped basically the seller finance.

Right. That's what he's saying.

That's so—

That's probably more valuable.

Yeah. There's no real like due-on-sale clause.

That was interesting. Yeah.

I mean, that's funny 'cause even the, the sell— I, I bought a couple properties in Durham, uh, North Carolina last week on seller finance 'cause I still do some, Sub-to seller finance stuff. And they, they had a due-on-sale for the seller, right, of the seller finance note.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I've— I have seen that. Yeah, I have seen that.

Because I was thinking, it was in the back of my mind.

What if—

Yeah, yeah, I think we put that in our contract to the buyers.

We did. Yeah, yeah, I had you do that.

Yes, yes, yes. So if they try to do it again, no, the daisy chain of the sense. Exactly. I mean, hey, as long as everyone's making money out of it.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And I think that the seller, because when we, when we did wrap it, we had to do like insurance and everything. So the original seller I got it from was like, Alex, what are you doing with my property?

Interesting.

Yeah. And I was like, hey, it didn't work. You know, these people wanted to buy it. And I explained it to her. She's like, all right, that's fine.

So yeah, I tend to present it. I've had the question too. And I'll say it's kind of like a rent-to-own.

Yeah.

If they didn't pay, we're taking it.

You know, it's like, exactly.

They're just kind of paying you rent.

Right. Okay. Yeah, but she was—

she's doing good, right? She pays every month on time.

Oh yeah, every— yeah, both of them pay early. I'm like, this is amazing. This is way better than renting.

But, um, well, yeah, because you had a bad experience on a rental. It happens to all of us, you know.

I'm fine.

And yeah, I know, I know it's producer. I do.

I know it's—

I know it's her. You know, we got to get you over that.

Yeah, no, we're over it. No, we're getting We're getting back in the saddle.

Yeah.

Especially since you're thinking about buying out of state, right?

Right.

Yeah.

Well, you have some already.

Oh yeah. We just got one in Alabama.

In Alabama?

Yeah.

What's the setup?

Birmingham. It's—

It's a kid?

No, we're going to do group home. So we're kind of like a PadSplit, but they don't have PadSplit out there. So I'm teaming up with another sub-2 guy and he's going to just rent it out by the room. So he's already got a bunch.

But the key is he's running it.

Yeah. He's running it. So yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he's already got a bunch, like midterm, all this stuff.

And it's going to be focused on VAs, so veterans. Yeah, or veteran housing.

Yeah. So pretty cool.

Feel good.

I don't have to deal with the tenants. That's all I care about.

All right.

Feel good. But in the niches are the riches, right? That's a nice strategy. Affordability meets a group that tends to be marginalized by the country where you can come in and create a dynamic that's better for them.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

And there's yield.

Right.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Yeah.

He kind of started a nonprofit where he's turning a lot of his rentals into veteran housing.

Oh, cool.

And it's, yeah, it's kind of a, it's a really nice thing because it's sort of the same thing that you were saying where they'll go to him and say, hey, he sets it up almost like midterm rentals, like all furnished, super nice. And they're like, you should see some of these other properties that they're trying to rent out to these veterans. And they're just like, kind of slum style.

Yeah.

They're just like, well, at least you got a place to stay.

Yeah.

But if you can elevate that, I think that's amazing.

Yeah.

And isn't he also working with the HUD-VASH program, which is basically Section 8 for veterans?

Yeah.

That's a nice one.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good program.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So a lot of good stuff. I mean, what got you into the affordable housing space originally?

Well, originally it was total self-interest. I wanted to find a bridge. Out of my W-2 job in this high-growth startup environment where I was working. I spent the bulk of my career in food tech, a very, very different industry, basically trying to figure out how to get animals off the plate, create foods that were nutritious, that were good tasting, that ultimately replaced animal meat and dairy. So, I don't know if you guys have ever had an Impossible Burger or any of those kinds of companies, like those sorts of things. I was like the business guy behind the scientific ventures. And it was incredibly impactful and incredibly high risk, right? You know, 1 in 10 startups has any sort of exit, and 9 in 10 tend to not be worth very much at the end of your 10-year cycle or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, around, you know, a time I was talking about having kids and getting serious and, you know, settling down in my life, I said to myself, ultimately, my role, my mission supersedes that of getting animals out of this place. It's actually my primary mission is I need to create freedom and opportunity for my family before I can deliver on these other impactful things that I really care about. And so, that's what led me into this niche. But again, I'm very risk-averse, so I'm not going to target ultra-luxury housing. I mean, Those things fluctuate, you know, like Bitcoin, right? It's just not my deal.

Yeah.

Which led me down the chain in that. And ultimately Section 8 became such a bellwether strategy because we started this in COVID, right? Rent was canceled. You could kind of decide if you wanted to choose your rent or not, or, you know, and we still have properties in LA, a couple we are, you know, trying to basically sell now that we've had for years. Where the tenants are carrying like a $150,000 balance from COVID They're never going to pay it back. Right. It's that's that's that hurts the landlord. Like that's that's that would have been our rents. That would have been our mortgage payments. Not that we're like rolling in these you know cash from these properties or anything. So Section Eight and these different voucher programs like HUD VASH, like what you guys are saying, are these just amazing government programs that essentially guarantee your rent and make sure that you're getting paid on time. And they tend to pay above market. Um, in the Cleveland market, they pay 40 to 50% above market.

Wow.

It's an insane spread.

You can't do that here.

No, it's a little different. Although there are some places, like if you look in LA, like Westmont or Watts, you can get above market down there. Um, but you know, they'll, they'll, they'll take the same fair market and they'll put it in higher priced markets and It, it can be harder to make it work.

Yeah.

So it tends to work well in like a Class C neighborhood, especially if you can work on the asset that you buy and make it a higher quality asset, reduce your maintenance costs, ultimately have a better quality standard. You know, the cash flow can be fantastic. And that ultimately was what helped me with my goal to bridge some of the cash that I needed to go do this on my own. Yeah. Outside of my W-2 job.

Yeah. Are all the deals that you're doing seller financing deals? No?

No. I'm not gonna lie, I got pretty into the seller finance thing for the last 18 months. The yields were so good. These are 3% rates, you know, for sale in fast-growing markets. Like, I took a little bit of a deviation to go buy some of those. Also, because the income from Cleveland is good, but we don't have a lot of debt on those properties. So I didn't have a tax shelter. So I kind of pieced together the strategy where on the one hand, we have a lot of Section 8 rentals that pay a lot of cash. And on the other hand, I have a lot of sub-2 rentals where I put less than 10% down on the property and I can take the full depreciation schedule. I can even accelerate it if I want to.

Mm-hmm.

And that can shelter my cash. If you're trying to make, let's say you need $300K to live in SoCal. That's like $150,000 post-tax. Why don't you just make $150,000 pre-tax and not pay tax on it? So that's kind of what that was. Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah, I do like that. Yeah, you were breaking that down because I was like, I asked the group, I was like, how do I make $50,000 a month? And then he was like, well, do you want to make $100,000 and then pay half of it? Or do you want to make— I was like, an interesting question. I'd rather not pay any taxes. But, um, that's probably later down the line.

Um, you say that, but I mean, there, real estate is, it's, it's, it's a favorable asset in a lot of different ways of piecing together a good tax strategy.

Right.

And even on a flip, you can likely find ways of leveraging things like a 1031 exchange or something else. You know, I don't, I'm not a tax guy, so don't take my advice on this one. I gotcha.

Yeah. Let's stop you there. 'Cause you can't do that on a flip.

Okay. So you know better than me. But there are interesting ways of piecing together a strategy as you build and grow and do that kind of thing.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, because I mean, it's pretty much the last 3 years we figured out how to make it. And now I'm like, how do I keep it? So that's kind of the hole I'm going down. And there's a lot of interesting strategies, like you mentioned. Yeah.

I was just at the Clever Summit this last weekend.

Oh, nice.

It's a really, really interesting group. 25 speakers, and it's like set up by the Clever Investor Organization. But they had 4 modules to it. It was make money, multiply money, protect money, and make money matter. It was about the 4 aspects of your financial journey.

Oh, that's cool.

It's kind of interesting to think about it like that though. Like, well, I make money through flips, maybe is what you could say. Well, you know, I invest, I may— I multiply money, you know, maybe by Doing group homes in Birmingham or whatever, right? And you building equity in homes, that kind of thing. And then ultimately you're talking here about, you know, protecting it, right?

Right.

That's tax. That's, you know, figuring out how to tap into your Roth or your, you know, different ways of having, having, you know, strategies that are advantageous for protection. And then ultimately figure out how to make it matter. What really matters in your life? What kind of impact do you want to have with it?

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Or, um, I know you can use like a charity and like funnel the money. 2 good things.

Totally.

But, um, I know that's one aspect to get around.

Are you going full like Clinton Foundation right now?

I mean, hey, you got to do what the politicians do.

Charity, what charity looks like Is you taking me out to lunch. That's what charity looks like.

I like that.

Yeah, that's good. Charity starts at home.

That's right. You're right.

Yeah.

Okay. I can get into that.

Are you going to announce that you're running for office now?

No.

Oh my God, no.

I'm just following all their, like, however they, the loopholes that they can all fall into while making these laws that are stupid.

No, we're definitely not. We're not doing that.

Stop watching YouTube.

Never, Joe.

Yeah. So he watches YouTube. He comes here and he goes, Joe, what do you think about this? I go, stop watching.

He's like, that's fraud. I'm like, okay, I was just checking because it seems like a good idea.

Yeah, no, that's fraud.

They're like, you can make money out of nothing. I was like, okay, that's like where this is going.

Start a crypto that doesn't exist, right?

Exactly.

You wouldn't be the first.

Yeah, that's what the Paul brothers did.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's plenty to, you know, to look at. Um, speaking of which, uh, so you also said you run a fund, and we were kind of talking about that before, how some of these guys maybe misappropriate funds or anything like that. So how does that work in that world if you're a newer guy and you want to make a fund? And then how do you get people to trust you, I guess, is my question.

Yeah, it's a good question. People invest with people they like, know, and trust. That's always part of that formula. I think You also need to show just deep integrity, deep credibility. I think a sense of urgency. I mean, that's that's at least personal to me. I tend to invest with people who really they they take responsibility, right? And they're like this: whatever happens is my responsibility. I'm not going to point to the economy, or I'm not going to point to the asset didn't perform. It's them, right? And those tend to be the people that you know if you can exhibit those. Characteristics and you truly embody them, I think they tend to have a better shot of raising. You know, there's a nice quote that lives in my mind rent-free, which is closed mouths don't get fed, right? Like, really be intentional about talking about what you're doing. No one's going to invest in you if they don't even know that you're doing it, right? So just being thoughtful about that and understanding, like, if you're starting a fund, You're— it's basically uncomfortable for here on out. So get used to it. Enjoy. It's going to be an uncomfortable ride.

Mm-hmm.

Now that you have that out of the way, like, go embrace the discomfort. Go talk to a bunch of people. Put yourself in that vulnerable shoes. Really listen to what they want. You know, my investors want protection of their cash like it is my baby. First and foremost, do not let anything happen to the cash. Second, they want that to grow. They want that to return capital to them as quick as possible. And they want me to like look at that and have a sense of ethics and a code of ethics where like they're never gonna lose sleep knowing that I'm managing, cuz they know that I'm going to be obsessed, like radically obsessed with protecting and then growing and making sure that, you know, nothing unethical is happening there. I don't think that's the case with everybody. And especially when we get into these frenzied times, 2020 and 2021 was a great example. Um, there are quite a few now fraud cases coming out. I know one in particular that where a large, uh, capital raising platform pulled in a boat of cash that was wired to a sponsor's personal bank account. And he subsequently did not buy the large office building that they were going to buy, he YOLO'd it into First Republic stock. This is a sophisticated sponsor that had the backing of large, sophisticated sovereign wealth funds and banks, and he YOLO'd it into First Republic stock, which went bankrupt. Oh man, he put it all on— that's where the $50 million is now. So that's a— stuff happens, right? And not to scare people out of investing in these things, But to underscore the importance of finding a sponsor, if you're a passive investor that you believe has deep integrity, because the team is much more valuable than the deal. Always, every single time, the team is much more valuable. I would take a 10% IRR, better team deal than I would take a 30% IRR with a shaky team.

Do you think Bernie Madoff was just misunderstood?

Nice.

Well placed.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

Yeah.

Oh my God, he was trusted by everybody. Yeah, I mean, he was the big boy.

Yep.

You know, and look at that, even the big boy can go down.

You know what, you know what gave him up? Did you ever study his— it's the lack of volatility.

Yeah, they, they thought this guy's too good to be true.

Bernie doesn't have volatility. There's no laws that apply to Bernie. He's just his own planet.

Too good to be true. Well, when you're, you're printing out your own statements, that happens.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, hello, too good to be true. The guaranteed returns. Ponzi scheme written all over it.

Yeah, now that you say that, because you know it, but at the time he was—

Oh yeah, yeah, no, exactly. No, he's— yeah, trusted, trusted advisor. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Wow.

Do you see a lot more people that, you know, are going to invest in your fund, uh, kicking the tires, asking more specific questions? Um, you know, how hard is it to get somebody who has, you know, let's say a million dollars to get them to, you know, put into the fund?

There's definitely more apprehension, I think, than there was 4 years ago or 5 years ago raising. Um, People have seen volatility. People have seen some bad actors. So there, I think, are just more logical questions. It's not so much of a FOMO thing anymore. But that's good. Like, it's good that people are asking diligent questions. They shouldn't be going into this because their friends are killing it in real estate and whatever, whatever, right? And they're printing money. Like, those are those are bad times to invest because they confuse people and they. dilute their true north of actually trying to create familial wealth by confusing it with ego and greed, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, so there, there, there is a lot more of a, of a cautiousness, I think. But there's also a lot of money. There's a lot of money in people's bank accounts. There's a lot of money in people's IRAs. And should you show up with the right formula of, you know, liking, knowing, trusting, but also that that deep integrity, ethics, and competence, I think it gives you a better shot of really showing people who you are so they trust you and they ultimately know they're in good hands. People, you know, when the— when, when rates are flipping, we saw that 50 basis point, you know, drop yesterday, right?

Mm-hmm.

What's going to happen to the high-yield savings account? My Wealthfront kicks out 5%. Well, now it's going to be 4.5%. They're going to cut 2 more times potentially this year. Now it's at Mm-hmm. My money's gonna start to not make very much money sitting on the sidelines.

Right.

You're gonna want it in, in high leverage.

Right.

You're gonna want it in something else. You'll see startups start to rip back 'cause money's cheap again. Venture capital, uh, goes out chasing returns. You'll see more syndications. People are going out chasing real estate. So the transaction volume will pick up. That'll ultimately increase the asset prices. The asset prices will go up. People make returns. Yeah, that'll make more money available, and it all cycles back in more of a positive direction.

Yeah, the, uh, points dropping, that was a—

I thought it was going to be a bigger deal than it was, like, because I think it's just a big deal.

Ah, I don't know.

I won a bet.

Well, yeah, you won lunch, so that was a big deal.

I didn't get paid, but I won a bet.

That's right.

Yeah, call up Joffrey's, let's get that reservation.

Yeah, there you go. Well, I think it wasn't enough for people, you know.

Oh no, I think it was.

Yeah?

Yeah, I think it was.

Getting some action now?

Very aggressive. I think it was really good. Okay.

Is the price of our next flip going up?

I'm gonna need a yes.

Uh, oh yes.

Oh, there we go.

The one that we're finishing? Yeah. Oh, definitely.

Perfect timing.

Yeah, definitely.

Yep.

But the price of your future—

I'm hoping the interest rate gets down, you know, maybe the high 5s. So, and if it does, then yes, it's gonna go up. Definitely. That's, that's what it does.

Yeah.

So it's really relevant though when it gets to a certain level. They were saying this a lot at the Clever Summit this weekend, that once rates hit, or once the average mortgage, I guess, is 5.25%, which isn't that far off, I think that's 2 more rate cuts or maybe 3. The national average of renting equals the same cost of homeownership. That will change things. So maybe it did. We didn't feel it as much yesterday.

All right.

It's a little abstract, but once people put this together and they go, wow, I, I don't have to just be renting. I could actually be earning equity for the same amount. I think that's when we start to see things start ripping again.

What about in Dana Point? Can you get it to where the rents equal a mortgage?

It's gonna go.

Yeah, I know.

It's gonna get worse.

Points gonna get worse.

Our rent's pretty low right now.

Come on! Don't talk about it.

Daddy needs a break.

Just kidding. Don't talk about it.

No, that's funny.

You guys are in. That's awesome. When that when that construction is done down there.

Oh God! I feel like it's never gonna be done.

It's quite possible. It'll go on for 45 years.

Well, I feel like. Especially that neighborhood on Strands. When one, you know, millionaire sells their mansion, the next one comes in and it's not to their liking. So they're like, tear it down and start over.

Yep. Mm-hmm.

3-year dream home. Yeah. There's a few, and it's hilarious, like, cuz we, where we are, we can see 'em all being built.

Yeah.

There'll be like a project just, just dead. It's like it's half built.

Yeah.

You know, it's just, just all framed out.

Mm-hmm.

And then nothing going on. And there'll be like a shop vac It's completely open. We're like, the Shop-Vac's been there for 3 months and no one's even come by. Or you'll see a guy come, he's like, just touches the wall, kind of moves a piece of wood from here to there.

Yeah.

Or I don't know what's going on.

There was permitting or something, but there was an oceanfront one we walked by and the entire crew was just sitting on the balcony, like swinging their legs, eating lunch.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

I don't blame them.

Should you guys be working? I don't want to say that from a poor guy.

Maybe you could do adverse possession on it or something.

Yeah, probably.

I have to like finish it myself.

But the taxes on that.

Yeah.

What a place to live.

Yeah, I do live there.

Yeah, and the heck with the taxes. California, they don't start taking it serious until 5 years down the road. All right.

You know, I thought that was the adverse possession thing though. You had to pay the taxes for 5 years.

You do. You don't have to pay them all at once.

It's got a payment plan.

Well, yeah, but one just got listed. It's like $28 million. Taxes on that are—

You can afford it.

It's like too big of a house too. It looks like a hotel.

You can afford it.

Yeah, has like a restaurant in the house.

You can afford it.

Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, it's pretty strange. I mean, I guess you run out of ideas for each room. You're like, oh, just build a Starbucks.

Here's the roastery. Yeah, that's awesome.

Cool.

We're gonna jump into the section where we have— we're gonna play some videos right now. I want to get your reactions. Yeah, so pop on those headphones when you get a sec. These are my YouTube videos that Joe likes to make fun of. I want to get a professional's opinion on these.

All right, okay.

Our first video is, is affordable housing poorly built?

Myth number 3, affordable housing is low quality. What if I told you that affordable housing often meets or exceeds regular housing standards? Many people believe that the myth of affordable housing is poorly built or uses substandard materials. The truth, affordable housing must adhere to the same rigorous building codes and standards as any other housing. In fact, programs like the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit, LIHTC, ensure these homes are constructed with quality, durability, and sustainability in mind. Examples like Villa Verde in New York City showcase how affordable housing can be architecturally stunning and environmentally friendly. So don't let the misconceptions cloud your judgment. Affordable housing is quality housing. If you want to learn more and bust these myths and learn the truth about affordable housing, follow and share this with someone who needs to know.

What do you think?

Only if you speak like that for the rest of the time. I think that's right. Okay, but there's a but. So, you know, he's talking about new affordable housing, and they have had to adhere to code, you know, for centuries, right? Like, I mean, it's not like a luxury home is built to any, you know, different code than an affordable home. What you do tend to see is there's a difference in how people treat them. And I'm talking about homes that exist, maybe a more luxury home from the '50s as opposed to an affordable home from the '50s. You tend to see more neglect in the affordable ones.

Mm-hmm.

Not that there's any mishap in the construction or whatnot, but there might be a lot more wear and tear. Maybe it wasn't properly taken care of and it has more deferred maintenance. And that led to problems over time, right? So you have to really put on a lens when you're looking at these assets, not, not, not as much the new ones, but the, you know, the existing ones and just make sure that you, you do know what you're, you're buying.

Do you, um, do you buy your multifamilies or one story or are they like huge buildings like they were showing on there, you know, like 20 stories up? What, what is it that you're looking at and what is it that you're buying?

I'm buying a lot of garden style. So a couple stories, but not like big New York looking high-rise type things.

Right.

More, you have a nice little patio walkway, some lawn space, little, you know, greenery and maybe a 2 or a 3-story building that goes out a little bit.

Okay.

And part of it has to do with the markets we target too. You know, I'm not buying in these really large dense cities. I actually prefer tertiary markets.

Hmm.

I think they're overlooked. They have a, tend to have a less sophisticated investor base. You know, I'm always looking for an edge, right? And so for me, actually targeting and saying, my, my goal is to be in a tertiary, not, you know, I couldn't afford Dallas and I'm in Lubbock. Like, yeah, I'm looking in Lubbock or I'm looking in, you know, Des Moines, Iowa or something. Because I can find better deals by being very focused on that.

Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Next.

All right. Next we have, is Ohio the landlord's dream state?

How long do evictions take?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Landlord-friendly eviction. Ohio, as, as many people know, is a, quote, red state and Property rights are a big deal there. That said, there's those of you that may know Columbus, there's significant school board influence on things like property taxes and also evictions has some influence. Up until very recently, this last earlier in '24, we actually had no notice required to evict somebody, and now we have a 30-day notice. So that was just implemented. Other than that, it's a, it is a very easy state to be a landlord in. They're, Columbus just passed a significant zone code change within the city limits, increasing density, scaling back on parking requirements. So they're developer-friendly, landlord-friendly, and know that, know they have a need for affordable, the types of assets that we're going after.

That's a good video. You know, he uses a binary term. Is it the best, right? Or is it the, you know, the top? I think Ohio is leaning to top 30% best states to be in for this reason. And you see a lot of investors saying, oh, red states, that's my buy box, right? It's all about this. It's about I want to be able to control my asset. I don't want the government to say somebody who's not paying here can stay, which is unfortunately a problem that we have a lot more scrutiny with in California and, and some of the bluer, uh, particularly coastal locales. Um, I'm finding Ohio— I wouldn't say it's the best. I would say it's, it's, it's, it's, it's better. It's, it's, it's pretty good. But you tend to still have a little bit more overreach than you would expect from its neighbors, like let's say Indiana, which basically is the Wild West for this kind of thing, or Kentucky, which are very, very, very landlord-friendly. I mean, almost to a point that it's maybe even a little excessive. Ohio, And Cleveland in particular, where our holdings are, is— we're seeing a change pro-tenant where it actually seems to be that they're, they're trying to get some different changes made through landlords by restricting our ability to turn units if somebody has stopped paying and go through a significant amount of paperwork, basically. to certify units, to have them fully lead safe, and to implement a bunch of things that they're trying to implement. Um, that's forcing the hand of some landlords there. So the value proposition is maybe not as good as it was, but it's still much, much, much better than most, uh, you know, most coastal places in California and that kind of thing. I think the best place you could possibly— I had to pick the best would be Arkansas.

Oh.

It's just, you know, I think—

No-knock evictions.

Yeah, I think you're— it's almost excessive, right?

Shotgun evictions.

You can visit Bill and Hillary there too.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I forgot.

You can knock them out of their house if they run.

That's right. There you go.

Okay.

Where was he from?

Little Rock.

Oh yeah, Little Rock. Okay, that's right. And then they ran there. I think they're in New York now, but oh yeah, but that's where he was running the Contra, like whatever that that's Reagan. Oh, I thought they were running it through Little Rock when little Billy was coming up through the ranks. No, I think he's tied into that somehow.

Contras?

Yeah.

No, no.

Well, no, though.

Go watch the Reagan movie and it'll bring you up.

Well, okay. Go watch the Tom Cruise movie where he was the pilot. During that, have you seen that one? Yeah, he's a pilot and he's bringing the drugs.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. That was through Little Rock. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, we'll watch him. We'll watch him and we'll see.

No.

Joe loves Tom Cruise as a pilot.

What did he lie about? How much time?

They were flying it over Epstein's Island.

Yeah.

That's what you're thinking.

No, I know. Yeah, for sure.

I'm just joking.

Oh, okay.

What's next?

Of course.

What's next? We got one more video here. Is creative finance overhyped?

Oh, if you use creative financing not only in real estate, what you learn is if you can understand how to solve the money problem for any kind of business. If you want to buy a business, they're going to be businesses that are having trouble because of COVID Why don't I buy a business with nothing down? Why don't I buy, you know, all kinds of other investments that— not multiple streams of income that I buy with creative financing.

If you use creative financing not Do you know what his name is?

No.

Isn't that, uh, Allen?

Yeah.

Paul.

Paul Allen.

I don't know if it's Paul.

No, something like that.

But like, yeah, he's like my age.

Yeah. He basically like taught—

I have his book.

Pace Morby.

Yeah, I have his book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

What do you think about creative financing?

I—

He loves it.

I don't.

I'm just kidding.

We're in the heyday of creative But like, it's a good point. Because if you show up, we're in the problem-solving business, right? We're in the people business. And if people come with one solution over and over, you know, different realtors, I'm going to sell your home, we're going to get a cash offer with me, and it's just not working. And you can differentiate yourself and say, well, it looks like you're— you don't have any equity in your home, but I can still get you paid and make sure you don't get out of pocket. And an investor is going to be super happy because They're going to have a, you know, a better than market, you know, loan on the property. And also they're going to build your credit over time. That's just a nice value proposition. It's just a different value prop, but it does apply to businesses like he said, right?

Oh yeah.

Do you know that 1 in 7 businesses for sale sells in any given year? You imagine that? Like it, like you go home to your block and there's 7 houses and they're all for sale. They wait a year and only one of them has flipped. You'd be like, there's, We are in the pandemic and it's 2008 and Martians just took over. Like, like you, it's just an extreme time, but that's the reality in small businesses. And I think also in a lot of alternative asset classes in real estate.

Yeah.

And so again, like you come in there and you find a way to negotiate with the seller of a business. Hey, you know, finance me over time and I'll, I'll, you know, you're gonna increase your chance of Selling the asset for the price that you want, and you're going to bring more buyers in. You're solving better problems in a way that most people are not.

It's the old silver tsunami. Joe loves that term. It's the older guys that are like, I've always told you I like her more than I like you.

Yeah.

But it's the people who have the businesses and they're just like, Morgan, I'm tired. I want to be done.

Just want to rock.

Yeah, but I don't know how.

On a cruise.

Yeah, exactly. So you're like, okay, well, I'm going to take this over. No money down. I'll pay you. All is well.

Okay.

What do you guys think of it? I mean, like, is this core to how you look at business here?

Oh yeah.

Absolutely. My first property I bought was creative financing. No money down.

No kidding.

Yeah. I'm getting a divorce. She put an ad in the paper. Yeah. Take over my payment. I said, what's that? I called her and she says, well, I— and back then you used to be able to just literally just take over the payment. Yeah, uh, it was an FHA loan. The banks didn't care. Um, and so that's what I did. No money down.

Yeah, that's awesome. The original creative finance deal.

The original creative finance.

It was in a newspaper. I'm like, where does that happen now? Like the Penny Saver. Someone's like, just take over my payments. They have like 15 wholesalers. Now you have to call Yeah, now you gotta annoy them and say, hey, there's no way out for you except this one way. And they're like still like, I don't know, I'd rather just let it foreclose. Okay, that's your option, I guess.

Yeah, and, and a lot of times they're, they're not necessarily getting good advice, you know, and, and that's even from, you know, real estate agents that are not that knowledgeable.

Oh, I had one. This is a good one. I had a guy we were doing— I was hosting the Power Hour with Jen Shelton. So we were calling on, on-market low equity deals. And I'm talking to this agent and he's like, I would never advise anyone to do subject to. I had one person that did it one time and they ended up taking their own life because of subject to. That's what he told me.

Oh my God.

I think there's a detail or possibly two that we're missing. I know.

And I was like, okay, yeah, that's— I'm not going to try to talk you into that after that. He's like, it ruined his life.

Okay.

I don't even know where to start.

Yeah, for sure. I was like, I've not heard that one yet, and I'm not about to try and overcome that objection right now, so you have a good day.

Yeah.

So it worked. It got me off the phone.

I know.

I was like, you guys will not believe the objection I just got right now. It will kill you.

Yeah, that shouldn't be as funny as it is.

No, I mean, maybe it was made up. Maybe there was other Factors like you're mentioning, but I thought it was pretty clever.

I gotta remember that one.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah.

So that's good. How can people get ahold of you? What are you like looking for right now in your business and how can people help you and how can you help them?

So right now I'm really actively engaged with bringing investors into my ecosystem and bringing deals that again elevate the standard of affordable housing. Asset turnarounds. We're seeing really good value, really good, you know, double-digit return type profiles for for properties that we're taking down. So always happy to have those conversations. My website's oceanridgecap.com.

Okay.

If anybody wants to learn more, and I am a consistently infrequent poster on Instagram.

Yeah, I'm liking those.

Yep. At creative capitalist.

Love that name.

So those are, uh, those are probably the 2 best places.

Nice. Will you seller finance that Instagram handle?

I, I'm working on it.

Okay.

Yeah, awesome. Um, very cool. Well, dude, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for breaking it down. I feel like we could sit here and talk shop all day. Um, flew by. So if you guys are interested in learning more about how to, um, you know, join Morgan on, on his journey and you know, be a part of these deals that he's getting right now, definitely reach out to him. And maybe if you're in the multifamily space and you do have deals, you know, he's a buyer for you. So make sure to reach out to him and send him your deals. In the meantime, we will see you guys on Monday at our meetup, Hangar 24, 6 to 9 PM. And then also next Thursday.

Or you could always send us the deals first and then if we don't like 'em, then we could forward 'em on.

Well, multifamily—

Does multifamily get marked up 50 grand?

Yeah, exactly. That is a good, that is a good point. I'd be like, hey, I got this deal. It just went up a little bit.

So no one has seen it.

Yeah. No one's seen it.

No one's seen it.

It's fresh.

It's fresh. That's good. You're right, Joe. See, this is why he's my mentor.

Thanks again for coming.

Appreciate it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you guys for joining us. Uh, we'll be back next week.

Thank you guys.

Bye.

If you want some more advice on real estate investing, reach out to us one-on-one.