Unlocking Wealth: Mastering ADUs with Simon Hibbert

Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast, the New and Experienced Investor Podcast. We are the number one live podcast in Laguna Hills. Joe loves that.

I like that.

I like that. Yeah.

Um, no, but we're a real estate podcast that brings investors from all walks of life together So, um, we're happy— or I'm happy to be back. Um, producer and I went on a little trip, kind of gallivanted around the world for a bit.

And, uh, a little trip?

Yeah, for 3 weeks.

3 weeks.

Yeah, it was pretty fun. It's good times.

We're gonna do 6 next time. I'm just kidding.

Yeah, basically it was long enough to where we came back and our cat had forgotten who we were.

That is true. It was very sad.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm not a cat person, so maybe that's a good thing.

No, no, it's not.

It's very bad.

It's very bad.

If you met our cat, you would be a cat person. Yeah, that's what she does to people.

Okay. Yeah. Um, anyway, I'm one of your hosts. I'm Alex Barnett. I'm the new guy.

And I'm Joe Homs. I'm the experienced guy and glad to be back. Yes, when he left for 3 weeks and then I left a week. Yeah, after that. So I just got back as well. This is our first podcast back, so it's been a month.

Yeah.

Since we've had one.

It feels good. And we have an amazing guest here in studio. This guy, he's done projects all around the world. Super smart guy, architect. We're gonna learn about all things, you know, how to use ADUs to boost your wealth, how to get more cash flow, all the questions you had about ADUs. Bring them here today. Make sure you guys share this. We're live right now, so please share this on your page and get more people to view and jump in, get some questions answered live.

If you have questions, drop them in the chat.

Yeah, so think about them as we go through and then just drop them in the chat and we'll get them answered live. So before we do that, really quick, let's talk about our next meetup at the end of this month on a Monday. Yep.

6 PM. Yep, Hangar 24. And I have a special guest coming who I met last month. Very, very interesting person. He does multifamily, and most of it is out-of-state multifamily. So he's traveling back and forth to wherever he has his projects. But what was very interesting when I started to talk to him about a month ago Was that he was doing this around, you know, 2008. And if you were around then, you know there was a big crash. And he was doing this with a couple of partners, and they were investing in properties, and the world fell apart on him, and his partners left him holding the bag. And obviously the investors weren't too happy when he started losing properties left and right, um, and ended up spending, I think he said, 10 years in jail.

Ooh, that's not good.

10 years in jail, took away his license. Um, but since then he's back. He is licensed again with the SEC.

Okay.

And he's doing the same thing he was doing back then, obviously with the experience of of the downturn. He's doing things differently. And I thought, wow, what a fantastic speaker to have, uh, you know, that's not afraid to tell us about his past and how he got there and what to be careful for. So if you're going to attend a meeting this year, this is probably the one that you need to attend.

Okay.

Okay. Number one, if you're scared in any way, I'm sure he'll set you straight. He's doing stuff out of state as well, which is more difficult than in state, but that's where he finds his deals. And so he's going to talk about all that.

Nice. All my questions are going to be prison related.

Is that all right? No, that's okay.

Okay, good.

Yeah, yeah.

He spent time in— I did ask him, he spent time in a federal prison.

Club Fed.

Exactly.

White collar.

Exactly.

Low, uh, what do they call it? Like low max or whatever? Like not max, but Like low, uh, I don't know, like where the fences aren't up.

You can go out, like come back and go have a drink at the bar nearby.

Just got to be back by 6.

Yeah, I just have to be back by 6.

I think a lot of people went down during that time.

Yes.

And it was like that though, because then, I mean, he's able to get his license again and start a fund.

So yeah. Yeah, minimum security.

I think you're talking about minimum security.

Yeah.

Is that where Martha Stewart went?

Yes. In fact, yeah, they used to hang out at the common fence there and talk and stuff like that.

That's great.

Yeah.

Well, let's bring in a man who doesn't need to go to prison to get the street cred.

Okay.

He is, um, he is an architect. He works on custom homes, ADUs, rehabs, been in the game for 25 years, done projects all around the world. We're so lucky to have him, Simon Hibbert. What's up?

How you doing?

Good, thank you very much. Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining us.

I feel like that's a tough description to follow.

No, no, no.

I don't have any prison credit.

No, we don't want prison credit. We don't want prison credit. Yeah. So go ahead, introduce yourself to everybody. Kind of what got you into real estate? What were you doing before?

And well, first of all, thank you. Thank you for this opportunity to be here. This is amazing. Like I said when I walked in, but. Yeah, Simon Hibbert Design Ethos is the name of the company. And I started right around 2018. I did go through that 2008 crash through my own way. In architecture, we usually are kind of ahead of the game on that stuff. So, around 2006, 2007, we could start feeling it. And we knew it was kind of coming in some ways. And then when it hit, obviously, it hit us too.

Do you have that feeling now?

No. No. And actually, curiously, and maybe this is just blind, you know, naivete, but I haven't felt that way since then. So even, even through the other ups and downs, but—

I felt it back then.

Yeah.

I did. But I don't feel that now.

Yeah. But that doesn't mean, you know, I don't know. I mean, so far, so good, right? Just live every day. So yeah, so we do ADUs, custom homes, like you said, a lot of remodels. Love small architecture, love pocket homes, pocket neighborhoods. And ADUs, SB9, and all of that good jazz. A lot of stuff that, that we can talk about. I got into this because I like to draw. I was going to be a career aviation pilot, you know, working for the airlines, and I slowly worked out of that idea and got into architecture and city planning. Love drawing, love drawing in perspective, love learning how to draw. And I had a lot of really great mentors that still would draw by hand. And, uh, and that was just jazz to me. I just, I couldn't believe it. I wanted to learn how to do that. And so just bit by bit, just ground through it, grind every day, and then got into architecture and, and just love the, the aspects of, you know, residential architecture mostly. Some other stuff we've done, but, um, I like designing homes, like working with people. I like helping people. You know, you get these homeowners and they have a vision. They've been thinking about it for a couple years. They don't know what they want. Or they maybe they know what they want, but they don't know how to you know describe it to you or put it on paper, obviously. And I love bringing it to life for them and really helping them get where they want to be. And it's it's you know they're very thankful, and I'm very thankful to be a part of of their lives. And I get to see you know get to work with the end users because for a lot of years I worked at different companies, and that was wonderful. I had a lot of good experience. But you know your your our clients were home builders. And developers. And so they were, you know, they were making educated guesses, but they were always guessing as to what their end users, the people that were going to buy, what they wanted. But now I get to work with the actual people that are living in the home and, and, and really put— bring to life what— help bring to life what they want. So.

Wow, that's got to be pretty fulfilling.

It's, it's great. Yeah, I mean, I think, um, you know, like they say, if you, if you love what you do, you don't work a day in your life, right? And, and it might sound kind of Cliché, but I do feel that way. Like, I really am thankful for what I do. And I've learned that I love helping people and guiding them through the process. And it can be a quagmire. And people get frustrated, and people get frustrated at cities and the permit process. But yeah, we just, we can get there. We all get there.

Do you know what the safest airline in the world is?

No.

Qantas.

Is that right?

Never had an accident. Wow, Qantas.

Okay, sorry, throw it out there.

Snapple fact.

Okay, let's get into it. Um, I'm looking at a property, multi-family. I won't say where, kind of want you people taking my property from me.

Good call, good call.

Yeah, yeah, Alex would take it. Yeah, I would. Um, it's 5 units. Okay, and I A main house, and then they built 4 other 1-bedroom condos on the property.

Wow. This is like a train leaves Boston at 3 in the morning. What time does it—

Yeah.

Meet the other one?

Yeah.

It's like a math problem.

So is that an SB 9 situation where I could do something to divide that and kind of make them like a condominium and sell those units off individually? Is that possible?

So what I'll caveat all of this with is, you know, we have state regulations and we have city or county regulations. And the states, you know, really set forth a lot of incentives and some rules for the cities and counties to follow, but then they can sort of make some adjustments. The fork in the road is if you're looking at multifamily, if it's zoned multifamily, even if there's just one house on there, but it's zoned multifamily, Mm-hmm. Then you're not going to go down the SB 9 route. You're going to go down an ADU route. And multifamily projects can do one of two things. They can do either 2 detached ADUs on the property, or they can use what's called the 25% rule. And that means you can take— you can build as many ADUs as 25% of the number of units that are already there. So if you've got 5 units, you can build one Whether you do that as a conversion of a, you know, a garage space, or a conversion of like a storage space or some non-living, non-residential space at the moment.

Okay, that's not my goal. My goal is, is it possible to split that up into condominiums to sell them?

Is it like a— it's like an apartment project right now?

No, it's a multifamily.

Okay.

So it's, it's obviously near the beach. I'll tell you where it's at. Near the beach, um, literally 2 blocks away from the beach. And they're having difficulty selling it. And I'm thinking if I could buy it at a certain price and sell these 1-bedroom condos—

Yes.

Which there are some literally across the street, there's a condo complex, right? You know, sell them off individually and then make money that way.

Okay. Yeah. So that's called a condo conversion.

Okay.

Yeah. So I haven't done many of those, but they can be tricky animals because, you know, you've got an existing building, but you're now going to sell them individually. And the tricky part would be what do you need to bring up to code if it's not already there? And probably the most tricky part of that would be parking. So, okay, if it's got a good amount of parking there, yeah, you know, then you're probably halfway there. Okay, you know, um, but the best thing to do would be to reach out to the city and talk to them about, you know, how do I go through a condo conversion for this, for this property?

Okay.

Yeah.

And that would mean getting an attorney involved, drawing up HOA documents?

Yeah, it probably would need that for the HOA part. Yeah, yeah. That's not my area of expertise, but that does sound very Logical. Yeah. But it may involve, like, from my realm, it may involve getting an architect involved in order to help with any sort of basic plans, unless you're making changes to the building. But if you're really just trying to map it, to get that on record. But then probably more importantly, is like what you're talking about, HOA and how that then works.

Okay. So I was thinking about the wrong law then.

No, I mean, well, just a different And there's so many avenues in residential, right? From all the way from tiny homes to single-family to multifamily to towers of mixed use. Right. So that's just— I would call that a condo conversion.

Okay.

I participated in one in San Clemente, but it didn't go all the way through yet. It's kind of still at the beginning stages. So that's why I don't know that much about those.

Okay. Yeah.

Got it.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Where are you seeing people, I guess, utilizing SB 9 to the fullest extent? What's the best play with that?

So SB 9 is an interesting animal because It's almost like they should have written it as SB 9A and SB 9B.

Okay.

And what I mean by that is, under SB 9, you can do a lot split. Let's call that SB 9A. And that means you can take a piece of property, piece of residential property, and split it into 2 pieces. And now each of those 2 are like free and clear lots. So you can do, you know, a single-family house on there and an ADU on there, just as if they were always 2 pieces of property. Or you can do what's called a 2-unit development. And that sounds like a duplex, but it doesn't actually have to be like an attached duplex, like you might think of 2 units stuck next to each other.

Mm-hmm.

And in the, in the 2-unit development, you don't actually split the lot. So you still have one lot, one ownership. And it's almost like building a big ADU. It can still have the same limits in terms of the size of the ADU, but you might be able to do 2 stories. We've done that with— whereas an ADU, you know, typically is limited to like one story because of its height limit. So far in my experience, we've had a couple of projects that have tried to lot split, and they've become— they've been unsuccessful. And the reason they've been unsuccessful is because they're in the right place. They're in a, you know, in an urban environment or, you know, suburban where We all are in Orange County. They've got enough parking, enough access, you know, you name it, the litany list, they're fine. But what ends up happening is the fees involved from all of us cast of characters between architects, civil engineers, structural engineers, geotech, all of us players, it becomes cost prohibitive very quickly.

Hmm.

Because in order to make a new lot, you're essentially making a new map. And that goes through a separate process. And it's a very similar process to if you did a development of 10 or 100 or 500 homes. And for one lot owner, that might be too much. So we've had a lot more success doing the 2-unit development. And it's basically like I say, it's like going through an ADU process or it's more similar to that. But the nice thing is you can still do an ADU. So it's not taking that away. It's not either or. That's funny.

Yeah.

I mean, and it's so typical, I think, I guess, of just California where it's like SB 9 is going to solve all our problems. This is, you know, this is gonna answer all the affordability, the, the housing crisis. Then they add in all the extra regulations, I guess, or that are already set up.

Mm-hmm.

And then that's where you hit the wall and it doesn't make sense at that point. So then people can't really utilize it to the full ex— extent.

I would say, you know, every project we do is case by case. So, you know, you might have a, a blank piece of land. Um, it's hard to find. Nowadays, right? But you might find one and it's got great access. And let's say that there's nothing on it, like there are no homes on it right now, or maybe there's one home and it's located on a part of the lot that doesn't preclude you from splitting it evenly. And it might be a winner because you're already planning on going through that process. And the goal, you know, the achievement of 4 units on what was only going to be 1 unit is well worth it. But if you're approaching it from the standpoint of like, well, okay, I live here, this is my principal house, I'm going to sell off the back half of this lot, it should be a pretty easy thing to do, then you're approaching it sort of from a naive standpoint, and you're going to run into that, that wall or walls. But if you approach it more from a development developer standpoint, and you know, going into it, okay, there's going to be this cost, this cost, this cost, but I can amortize that over the life of this project, then it's going to be a lot more— it's going to be a lot easier to swallow.

That makes sense. Yeah. Because I remember, I mean, recently I've been talking to a lot of buyers, you know, I do wholesaling and stuff and they're like, if you find me a lot this size where I can put an ADU on there, that's kind of what they're looking for right now, at least as a value add.

Yeah. You know, a lot of our clients call and they'll, they'll just say, hey, Simon, Such and such address in this city. You know, what do you think? What can I do here? And it might be a 5-minute call, or I might have to call them back after doing a little bit of investigation. But, you know, they're out looking at lots, right? And they're out looking at pieces of property. And it can, it can, you know, with a 5-minute phone call or a half hour or something like that, you can figure out a lot. You can figure out quite a bit, right? That then they can either say, nope, punt that, move on to the next, or, hey, yeah, let's, you know, let's put a preliminary offer and see where it goes. So, okay.

Yeah. So how much do you think it costs to build an ADU right now in Orange County per square foot?

How many, how many bleep buttons do you have on your podcast? I'm gonna get like a lot of comments on this one.

That's all right.

That's all right. Let's get crazy.

So builders don't want anybody to answer that question, not because they're trying to hide the information, but because there's so many factors that go into it. Right. So it's like, you know, are you building this in Santa Ana? And, and I don't mean to knock anywhere, but I just mean like in terms of, you know, income, general income and general demographics, right? Versus let's say the Newport Coast, right? Obviously there's a difference between those two. Um, I tell clients to start at $300 a square foot and go up from there.

Yeah.

You know, a few years back it was maybe $150, $200, $250. But nowadays I tell them start at $300 for something in the mid-range. Right now, if you're going to get into like Wolf appliances, And you're going to get into, you know, countertops that you're bringing in from Carrara in Italy. Obviously, that's a different ballgame. Right. But for just general planning purposes, $300 to $350 per square foot times the size of your ADU, it'll give you an idea.

Okay. And so $300 a square foot, 1,000 square foot ADU, which is about average, right?

Average. What I see is actually closer probably to 700 square feet.

Yeah, let's round it up to 1,000.

Yeah, just to make math.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Sure.

$300,000. So one bedroom, again, it depends on where you're at. Yeah, you know, you're renting that for $2,500 a month, you know.

More, maybe.

Maybe more. Yeah, let's, let's call it $3,000. Yeah, a month. So where's the cash flow in something like that? Um, you know, $300,000 to build this, if, if you're, you know, getting a loan for the entire amount, it's going to be about $3,000 a month.

Yeah. And I don't— yeah, I don't know how that pencils day one, and maybe it doesn't. So curiously, most— and when I say most, I mean like more than 90% of the ADUs that we design are not for investment purposes just yet. It's growing. But most of the time people call us up, it's for family, grandma, Or adult son, or adult child that may have some disabilities, but they want to be close to home.

Which is where it always has been.

Yeah.

In my past is for granny.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. And I've heard a couple things that you guys may know better on this. But I've heard some realtors will tell me that they can get the same dollar per square foot value for an ADU. as the main house. And others have told me it's about half. And I don't know who makes that determination. So, but that makes a big difference in what you're planning financially.

The appraiser, I guess. Yeah.

And there's no way you get the same amount as the house. It just doesn't make sense. Because, you know, let's say you have a 3-bedroom home and you put an ADU, you're looking at a 4-bedroom home, basically.

Right.

You know, Yeah, it just, it's not gonna, it's not gonna pencil out. There's just the appraiser. And that's the problem. The appraiser is going to come over and how does he appraise it? If there's, you know, not 20 ADUs in the neighborhood where he can use the comparables, he's going to say, this is just another bedroom.

Yeah.

You know, and is there, is the house next door 4 bedrooms? Yeah. Okay, well, how much is that? And then we'll add a little bit more because it's a separate structure. And there's a stove and whatever else is in there. So appraisers have a hard time.

I'm sure they do.

They really do. Yeah, they have a hard time.

You know, it's funny because— what was I gonna say? Of course, now I forgot it. Nah, it'll come back to me in a minute. But what the, the ADU is, you know, if it's detached or attached, it has a different feel, right? And if it's attached to the home, then it could also maybe appraise for more because it feels like an extension out of the home. Whereas if it's detached, I don't know. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a judgment call for sure. Yeah.

Depends how much you like whoever's going to live there, I guess.

Yeah.

You know, if you want them separate, totally separate.

Yeah.

Built-in babysitter.

If, uh, you know, your mother-in-law is going to be coming into the house every minute because it's attached, That's a different story, I guess.

It is true. You know?

Yeah.

Um, so you're, you're building custom ADUs, right? Yes. Right. Okay.

Right.

So how do you, what do you feel about, you know, I'm sure you've seen at, since the ADUs and the small homes have been getting bigger and more popular, people are now doing these prefabs that they can just bring in and drop in. Yeah. Um, what are your thoughts on that?

So my first thought is they look really cool. I mean, no doubt. I mean, for, you know, an architect to see something that looks really contemporary and doing some corner glazing and some, you know, maybe a butterfly roof or a shed roof or something with some really new materials, that looks cool. The practical side is that most of the time, I mean, really most of the time in our suburban OC, it doesn't work. And it doesn't work not because of code, but because— well, one, because of code, but Most, more likely because most cities want the ADU to look like it's meant to be there, like the main house.

Mm-hmm.

And most of our homes are traditional in some way. I mean, they might be like a Spanish colonial derivative or like a New England derivative. I mean, you know, we don't have a lot of historic neighborhoods over here, but when you see a lot of these prefabs, and I'm sure from their marketing teams, they're making them very contemporary because it looks flashy and it looks amazing. It's just going to drop in out of the sky and it doesn't fit. And so, it's going to get rejected. Now, where they make sense is in the outlying areas, like, let's say, out towards Joshua Tree or Big Bear.

Right.

Or somewhere where getting the day-to-day contractors up and down the mountain, that's tough, right? That's a long way for them to go. It's a lot of materials to haul up there. Whereas if you can just take one truckload, And you've got, you know, you've got 10 acres, right? And it's like, it doesn't matter whether it looks like the main house or not, because you can't see the main house from the ADU. That's a whole different story.

Right.

And then it can be a lot more cost-effective.

Yeah.

But we find that, you know, very, very few prefabs are being, you know, built. A lot of them are being discussed. You know, it gets a lot of buzz.

Right.

And it's cool. But we haven't seen them really come to fruition yet. The other thing is, you know, they have to be approved to a certain degree at the state level. And then they have to still go through the city's process to a certain degree. So, you got kind of a combination there. And now you've got another jurisdiction. And so, you know, there's a company that is Boxabl. B-O-X-A-B-L, I think they are.

Yeah, yeah.

They look like they're doing some great stuff. And I know that they're working on state-level approvals. I think they've got some state-level approvals in some other neighboring states. So, you know, keep an eye on what they're doing. They also look like they have some that are kind of more contemporary and some that are not, so that might fit in a little bit better.

I've seen that. Yeah, and then they have a different way of— are they using different materials or something?

I think they unfold. Yeah, yeah, they come in and they unfold.

Yeah.

So that's interesting. And I guess with, you know, the 3D printing and all that kind of stuff, that could, you know, I guess get kind of interesting in your world.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I'll have to change jobs.

Well, I mean, you could, you could, you know, you'll be the one plugging it into the computer and then you print out a house. You're like, there you go.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think from a plan standpoint, they might not be that different, you know, because, you know, it— not to say it doesn't matter what material, but it's, it's a little less important on some things. But, but it certainly seems like the creativity could go through the roof. I mean, curving walls and You know, round shapes and things like that, which you can do now. But I, you know, it's just the cost versus effort to do. You might, might not.

So, so a rusty container is not going to work in the backyard of a home in Lake Forest?

Just don't tell the city. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Yeah. No, it's not.

They're spying on everybody.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's, yeah, it's probably pretty obvious. It's like a crane comes in and drops this like thing you bought from IKEA.

Yeah. Yeah.

I will say a little plug for Lake Forest because I live there. I love the city staff. They're great to work with. And, uh, and they've, they've— I mean, you know, some cities are more challenging than others. You know, Lake Forest is great.

Okay. Have they gone, have they gone to what I would call an online plan check?

No.

Thank God.

It's funny, you know, like everything, there's a, you know, there's two sides, right? Online plan check can be great because you're not printing out all those sheets and you're not spending all that money. I mean, it's hundreds of dollars every time we're printing out and submitting. But at the same time, you know, that interaction, Lake Forest still does give handwritten, not even, you know, sometimes not even typed up, but handwritten comments. And so it's great. I mean, you really feel like you're working with people.

You get information quicker than—

You do.

You don't put it in the machine and they send it someplace and then 3 weeks later you get, yeah, you need to do this. Okay, I've done that. Then you have to submit it back again and wait another 3 weeks. It's like ridiculous.

It's, you know, ironically, you would think it'd be faster.

Right.

Being electronic. It's not.

It's not.

No.

So let me ask you this.

Yeah.

LA just recently built some homes for the unhoused. Let's call them unhoused. Unhoused. Okay. It cost them $600,000 per unit. Can you do it for less?

Yeah. I mean, me personally, yeah, I could swing some hammers.

Uh, do you think that's ridiculous?

Yes. I would want to know, where's the money going? Is it really following a normal process?

I think Elon and Vivek are going to find out here pretty soon.

Right. Or are they having to upgrade public utilities and things in order to accommodate demand? And so therefore, I mean, I can imagine that taking a big chunk right away, things that we don't think about. So it's maybe a lot different than just adding a detached unit in the backyard.

Yeah, I want to know who the builder was. And are they friends with anybody at City Hall?

Yeah.

That's what I want to know.

You know what I was going to say earlier was that the biggest thing that influences cost is size of square footage. So, and maybe that's why we see the average somewhere around 700 square feet. You know, the state will give you up to 1,200. A lot of cities, and I just talked to a city today, you know, they'll cap it at 1,000 for an ADU. And I asked them, you know, do you know why? And she didn't. And that's okay. I need to find out myself. And I'm sure there's a good reason for it. But despite that, usually once you go over 800 square feet, you're subject to a lot more of the codes and a lot more fees.

Hmm.

And so there are actually, Let's say that's a disincentive, or in other words, there's an incentive to stay at $799 or sometimes $749 or less. And so, I mean, if you're, if you've got a $300K budget, you know, maybe it's a 500 square foot ADU or 350 or 550 or 700, as opposed to just trying to max out. Because once you do hit that trigger point, that next critical point, then you're like, well, I better go all the way because I'm going to pay $20,000 in fees for, you know, this connection and this park fee and this, et cetera, to city. So if I'm going to have to pay all that, I better go as big as I can in order to make back up that value. Whereas typical mom-and-pop, you know, or for Granny, you know, maybe it doesn't need to be 2 bedrooms. She doesn't need it, right? So they can save it at 500 or 600 square feet and get a pretty nice unit.

Well, what happens if Granny gets a boyfriend? No, you need 2 bedrooms.

No, she only has Pappy and that's it. No more boyfriends after that. That's it?

Yeah, sorry. That's just no comment from you.

Oh, she's done.

Maybe she gets Pappy there on a cruise ship.

Oh yeah, new Pappy. Yeah, kids, I found a new Pappy. Yeah, like, no. Um, you mentioned when you first started, you, you kind of fell in love with architecture when you were drawing by hand. I'm assuming now that you've, you've brought that into the computer world. Is that, is that kind of like the main platform? Are you using like 3D modeling, 3D rendering?

Absolutely. So, um, uh, we typically do projects in 3 phases. The first phase is still drawn by hand. It's the most creative, it's the fastest, and it's the easiest to change.

Right.

I mean, if they don't like it, then we can change it, right? I mean, we're not, we're not here to win awards. We're here to make it right for them and solve their, their problems and do that by code and by, you know, the best use of their money, etc. The second phase is all on the computer. So nowadays we work in Revit, which is from Autodesk, and it's a 3D program just by default. It's not like drawing a thing and then converting into 3D. You're drawing in 3D From the get-go. And it's phenomenal because then it helps me. It helps me with proportions and getting, um, you know, some technical things right, but also, you know, getting proportions and getting the look and the feel right. And then when it comes to presenting to the client, you know, it's wonderful, right? They can virtually walk through it. We can do video fly-throughs. You can send it off for, you know, super detailed renderings. We do renderings, but sometimes nowadays it's easier to have that. outsourced. And then our third phase is all of the construction documents and everything that goes to the city and structural engineering and Title 24 and all of the technical data. So it kind of breaks it down into a pretty easy process, but still definitely drawn by hand in the beginning.

Does the computer spit out all the renderings that you need for plumbing, all that stuff? I mean, you don't have to say, here, the circuit breaker is going to be over here and It does all that for you.

That's a really good point. So in residential, we get less detailed than in commercial in a lot of ways, or like big mixed-use projects. So there are certainly things like— I'm not— I might be designating where outlets are and where the circuit breaker panel is, for example, but I'm not writing in typically what each of the wire gauges is on the panel. It's not at that level of detail.

Okay.

The computer is helping make things easier, not by what it includes or excludes, but by— if I draw one model, then that takes some time, right? But then once that model is drawn, I can cut sections through that model. I can do views from the top, left, bottom, you know, underneath, you know, all around it in, in moments, right? I won't say seconds because I got to bill my time. Sounds like an attorney. Yeah, but no, but, but that's the beauty of it, is that like I'm building all of that in the first time, and then now I'm cutting views of that in order to show either a client or the city or an investor or something, something of that nature. So that's where the savings comes, is more like on the back end. And then if there are changes, if I got to move a wall over 6 inches, I don't have to go back through all of my other plans And make sure that it also got moved. It just, it just automatically, you know, picks all that up.

Yeah.

So is—

does AI have any influence on you yet? Like, can you sit there and say, okay, this is what I want, 4 bedrooms, uh, the kitchen here? I mean, can you literally talk to it and then it does it for you? Or no, there's, there's more.

You know, I, I think you probably could. I'm not super versed at it yet. I'm kind of learning. Well, I'm definitely learning. Where I'm finding AI helpful so far is if there's questions on a code interpretation, then I can look up some different opinions on that, and that'll kind of guide me a little bit and then find the right answer. I'm not usually using it from a programming standpoint. In other words, like, okay, I want 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, and it's 2,000 square feet, go.

Right.

I guess At this moment, I'm still that AI. Will it get there? I think so.

Okay.

Yeah, because if I understand it correctly, an AI is sort of, let's say, scanning every plan that's— or slowly scanning every plan that's ever been made and finding patterns in it. Eventually, it'll probably a lot sooner than we want, it'll get there. But what AI can't do, I don't know if it ever will, it can't get that sense from the client. And a lot of times what our clients will tell us, they're not lying to us, but they won't be able to articulate it in a way that we need to interpret. And so, it's, you have to kind of understand what are they trying to get at? What are their goals, right? As opposed to just draw and then draw again and then draw again. I mean, that's just a waste of time and money.

Yeah.

Right. So yeah.

Do you have— I don't want to say a lot, but I'm sure you have a few difficult clients that—

No, no, never.

That you—

I don't know what you're talking about.

Are you a difficult client? I think— I don't know. Would you be a difficult client?

I don't think so.

No?

No, I don't think so. Okay. Yeah, she's pretty mad.

She doesn't send food back or anything, even if it's completely wrong.

Really?

Oh, I don't know about that.

I think she, she would rather live in a house that she hates than to tell the guy that, like, she doesn't like it.

I don't know if that's true.

Oh, you're gonna get yourself in trouble. You better stop.

Anyway, this is a different podcast.

You've got, you've got all this work that you've put into it. The kitchen's over here and the client says, I don't like it there. I want you to put it on the other side.

Does that happen?

Yes.

Sure. Not often. I mean, not often because we're amazing. No, but not often, not often because if we're doing our job right in the first phase, and we're asking a lot of questions, that's one thing I really learned is that, you know, you gotta ask a lot of questions. And I'm not always very good at that. You know, a lot of times I'm listening, I'm observing, I'm interpreting, and I'm just kind of like, okay, I get it, right? But maybe I don't. Maybe there's something crucial I'm missing. But if we're doing our job right, and we're asking a lot of questions, then Really, those kinds of major things should be, should definitely be taken care of. But that doesn't mean that it's perfect every time. And it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Because what, what often does happen is like, let's say I go to somebody's house, and whether it's a remodel or an ADU, and they've got an idea of what they want. And they know their house, you know, obviously better than anybody, right? And I'm coming in for the first time. So I'm coming in cold. And they're like, well, what do you think? Should we put the kitchen over there? And I'm like, you know, I gotta look around. Right? Like, I gotta get some context and spend some time and sort of think about it. And so, what can happen is that we'll put the kitchen there on the plans, but then once you see it on the plans and you get all the context and you can just see it and kind of take a step back, you're like, oh, you know, it doesn't make sense there.

Right.

And so, I certainly have times where I will deviate from what they've asked for, you know, give them that option, but also give them another option and say, hey, you know, what if we did this? And, uh, and for the most part, you know, they'll be like, oh yeah, I can see it now. But sometimes they hold fast. You know, I've got a client, really wonderful lady in Costa Mesa, and she gave me a pretty good sketch of what she wanted. I mean, you know, junior architect level, right? And, uh, and I followed it and gave it— gave that to her, and I gave her an alternative of what I thought was better, and she picked hers. So we're like, all right, you know, that's, that's okay. I mean, we can totally make it work, and by code it's fine, and I want her to be happy, right?

Yeah, she's paying.

Yeah.

You gotta make her happy.

Yeah, I mean, they're paying for the plans, but they're paying for advice and guidance, right? More than anything.

I think that's where you're good with AI. I don't think you're gonna lose your job tomorrow or anything like that because you're dealing face-to-face with a consumer. AI can't do that. I mean, I guess they could talk to AI and say, here, do this, do that. Still, you're not getting that feel. You must be like really creative as well. It's like, I'm like totally the— I could not go into somebody's home and say, you need to put the ADU there, we can attach it to this wall, and then you can put this. That's not me. I think I could do that.

I think it's relative. I mean, like what I see is, you know, maybe, maybe I'm more— let's say maybe I can draw better than you can at the moment, right? But like I had to work to get there, right? Like when I started, it was just stick figures. And my parents would laugh at me, and that's okay.

He hasn't forgot.

But now I can draw decently, right? But I look at artists, especially there's a watercolor artist who's my favorite, Thomas Schaller, up in LA, and I don't think I'll ever get there. And so I look at that and I'm like, that's divinity. And then same thing for construction. I can't build. I can draw, but my wife will tell you that I can't build anything. I can build. Okay, well, then we can team up then.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

Let's start a new company.

Yeah, yeah.

Are there certain architects that are like your Michael Jordan, or, you know, like, who do you look up to?

Oh, you know what?

People that we would know?

I'm terrible at that, actually. I don't— I'm not good at naming architects. In fact, I remember starting out in my career and people would talk about, you know, Frank Gehry.

Oh, okay. I was gonna say Frank Lloyd Wright.

Yeah.

Is he a hack, or is he just like, okay?

No, no, no, no. And I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I appreciate you know, their abilities, their creativity. But I've never been one to sort of like, you know, really dive deep and like kind of get into their projects. The only one that I sort of really resonated with a lot was Irving Gill, who's an architect from the early— well, let's say like 1920s, 1930s, maybe. I could be wrong.

Mm-hmm.

But he did a lot of what we would now look at as like progressive Spanish-influenced architecture. So if you see like, A lot of buildings in Oceanside.

Mm-hmm.

And he had buildings up in LA too, but just very clean, very, you know, form following function. And so, and there was a project that I had to do that needed, that needed to emulate his style. And so that's why I learned about him. And then, you know, I could really, at first you look at it and the building looks kind of stark, you know, and to the layperson you might think, well, you know, it's just a couple of arches and a couple of deep-set windows. What's the big deal? But like anything, right, you kind of get into it and you sort of understand where he was coming from. And then you realize in what era he was doing it. And it was far more progressive than anybody else that I knew of. And then you can appreciate his art and architecture. But I'm not good with names. I couldn't, apart from a couple of them, I can't really name them.

I think he's like over 100 and He was like in a bed and they rolled him out and said, I'm voting for Kamala. Oh, no, no, that, that was Jimmy Carter. I'm sorry.

That was the wrong guy.

Yeah, that was Jimmy Carter. I'm sorry.

Jimmy Carter did build some homes though.

He did. Yes.

Homes for Humanity.

Yeah.

Habitat for Humanity.

Yes.

Yeah.

Wrong guy.

Wrong guy.

Right. That was like a commercial break.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, um, you guys ask good questions.

Thank you.

Yeah, you have some videos.

We've been doing it for a while. Yeah, um, yeah, do we have any, uh, comments or anything too?

We do. Um, it's going back. We, we got a few here. So we got Chad in the chat. He said Joe's beard might be better than Alex's.

Oh, how dare you!

I've got color in mine.

I know, I need to gray mine out.

Yeah, I've just been really lazy and I haven't been Been shaving. Like I said, I was gone last week on a cruise for a week.

Yeah, yeah, cruise face.

Yeah, it's like cruise face. Why shave?

Yeah, I know, it looks good.

Chad also said, what beach is the multifamily at, Joe? He's curious if it's a nice beach or not.

It's in San Clemente, right? Literally 2 blocks away from where the pier is.

Lock it up, Chad.

Lock it up.

Lock it up, Chad. It's honestly, this place has been sitting on the market for a while. I've had some investors that were interested in looking at it, but I always thought the play was, you know, do the condo conversion on this and sell off 4 of them and keep the house, you know. And hopefully, hopefully you can sell. I mean, you could probably sell the individual units for about $700,000 each.

Okay.

So, wow.

Something there.

Not too shabby.

Definitely something there.

Who knows? All right, we got creatively— and by the way, congratulations on your new baby.

Yeah.

All right, we got Stephanie in the chat. She says, on condo conversion, how do you resolve metering issues if the property only has 2 meters and resale would involve a total of 6 You're gonna have to add them.

Yeah, the public works is going to make you add them. And one thing to think about is you might have to upsize the connections from the utility. And that's 2 things. One is, you know, that's the cost of, of those, you know, utility lines and such. The other is that when you're dealing with connecting to the public realm, now you're prevailing wage and going through a public— oh, the name escapes me— an encroachment permit. So, you know, because you're basically working with the city on their side of things, you know, you're outside of your property. So, you know, investigate that.

Thank God it's not the Coastal Commission.

Sounds expensive.

Because I was thinking about shooting some rockets up from there too. They'd probably say no.

Yeah, they're not for that.

You know, ironically, I've had a great run With the CCC, you know, we've got a project in San Clemente actually that had to go through Coastal Commission and it went through it just fine. Oh, and in pretty good timing. And then, and then when we had to make some modifications, they were like, yep, that conforms. So I was like, you know, that was pretty good.

You notice how he's like, you know, sucking up to all the permitting people.

Just do some more plugs.

Yeah, he's like, no, they're all great people. Yeah, yeah, them all, from the secretary to the—

that's right.

I love the people at the city, they're so nice.

Right? Yeah.

Do you bring them presents too?

I don't.

You're not allowed to?

No, no, not to the city.

No, no, he just keeps it business and that's fine.

We do gifts.

You don't take them out to lunch?

No, I don't do that.

Really?

No, that's never been my strong, strong side.

Okay.

No, I probably should. I mean, I don't know with city staff necessarily, but, you know, I could do a better job of that with clients too. Yeah, I do, I do okay calling and checking in, but taking them out to lunch, I should probably spend some more money on that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, it's like you only have so much time in the day.

That's a good way to get referrals.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Take somebody out to lunch. Everybody takes me out to lunch every day and I appreciate it. Thank you for lunch today.

Well, you're not out here drawing custom homes and all that stuff. I feel like that might take a Better part of your day.

A lot of hours.

A lot.

That's gonna say X dollars per hour.

He secretly has an AI doing it for him.

I know.

Yeah.

You know, right?

He's like, 3, 2, 17 underscore feet, Spanish style.

I'll be in the water. Come find me.

Go surfing.

That's right.

Yeah. Nice.

All right. Well, we got one more. A hey everyone from Liz.

Nice.

Hey Liz.

And we do have some videos. Should we go to those?

Let's check it out.

Let's go.

Here we go. First one, it says, ADU, what would you do, sell or rent?

After I build the ADU, it costs me $298,000. I get about $3,000 a month from Airbnb. That's after cleaning and all that, and taxes and hours. So I can keep doing that, making $36,000 a year plus for my family, which helps me live mortgage-free. We actually use it every day.

Sounds about right.

Perfect. But we're also thinking about doing a second kit, everything that sells Thoughts?

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, the finance side isn't really what I get into, but what I will say is that We have some folks even in the neighborhood that I'm in, and they're doing just a garage conversion ADU, and they're going to rent it out for more than their mortgage. And it's a 1-car garage conversion. They've got a 3-car garage. They're converting one of those spaces.

Oh.

So you're talking about 200, 220 square feet. And now, now these homeowners bought, you know, a few decades ago, right? Otherwise that wouldn't pencil. But just that, that's pretty amazing. Yeah, yeah, that's nice.

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of— we kind of touched on it earlier where, you know, it was like right on with your numbers, $300,000 a bill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't believe them. And the real estate agents who told them it was $450,000, they're just trying to get a listing. Yeah, you know, because that's not— that doesn't work.

Why would a real estate agent ever lie?

Oh, I don't know.

They take ethics courses, Joe, all the time.

All the time.

I don't think that's true, you know.

Um, okay.

That brings up something interesting in that we're in SoCal and then we're in Orange County of SoCal. And so, you know, I have clients that watch YouTube videos and YouTube clips and stuff, and ADUs are not the same everywhere. And obviously cost isn't the same everywhere, but ADUs certainly aren't the same everywhere. So you have to, you have to ratchet it down to like, okay, you're also in Southern California and you're also in Orange County.

Right.

Keep that in mind.

Yeah, you may get higher rents, but it's going to cost— it'll—

And don't you think you were talking before Santa Ana and the coast? Don't you think if you're going to build an ADU on the coast, it's going to cost you way more than Santa Ana?

Yeah, I do find that, you know. Um, so we, we generally— it doesn't take us more or less effort where it is. So our, our fees tend to stay about the same. Unless somebody's doing something really crazy, you know, like a rotating restaurant on top of the ADU. Oh, you know, that'd be nice.

That would be nice.

Right. But generally the fees are about the same, but definitely build costs are higher. And sometimes that just has to do with the fact that like the finishes, the level of finishes are going to be higher. And then sometimes it's, you know, it's— there's a term for it, but it's like zip code, you know, charge you by your zip code, right? Oh, they can afford it more. I'm going to charge them more. But every client that I work with, whether they're rich or not quite so rich, they all have the same mantra, right? They want to spend their money wisely, whether it's $1 million, $500,000, $250,000, or, you know, or less. So they want to, they want to feel the value more than anything else.

Well, and that's nice. So you can kind of provide them that advice.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you guys have more millionaire clients, you just send them my way. That's fine.

Sounds good.

Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, we're not sure, you know, we're not long on those.

I'm actually getting some feedback from the, um, audience that there's no sound on the videos when they're playing. Oh, we can hear sound, but they're not getting it, and I checked it on YouTube. Yeah, sorry about that.

Just play it and then, um, like unmute all that.

Okay, I'll give it a shot. All right, we got another video, and we're gonna hope the sound works out there for you guys. This says— this one is about, do neighborhoods need to evolve?

Accessory dwelling units are popping up in backyards in San Diego. Or if they'll do it after. I don't know.

Okay. Yeah, I think it's still like missing the sound. So just let me do a little recap. Basically, they, they're doing a news story on, um, San Diego has some ADU laws that they passed on making it easier. this developer decided to put 2 2-story ADUs in the back, and the neighbor's saying basically, I have no more privacy. He's saying, you know, that's gonna have to change and evolve as we're trying to solve the, you know, the housing crisis.

That's tough, right?

Yeah, 2 different perspectives.

Yeah.

I don't know. What are your thoughts?

I mean, one thing the gentleman did say on the video is that you don't buy your neighborhood, you buy your home. I actually disagree with that. you know, with all due respect to him, I— we bought in the neighborhood that we bought because we knew that we could change our home, but we can't change our neighborhood. And we love the neighborhood. So we're like, this is where we want to be. You know, we can modify the home.

Yeah.

Um, I think it's tough. You know, you've got a housing crisis, no doubt. Right. And people need places to live. And for years, you know, ADUs have been around for decades, but they're a relatively new buzz term again. For years, we complained about low-cost apartments, right, going up next to single family. So it's kind of like, you know, we've always complained, and nobody wants somebody that's on the second story looking down into their yard, that's for sure. We've been fortunate enough to work with folks that try to take that into consideration. And there are certain things we can do to take it into consideration. For example, maybe on the side of the home that's going to— or the ADU that's going to face the neighbor, That's where you put some windows that have a high sill, so you're not looking down into their yard. And that the windows and doors that are looking into your own yard are the bigger windows. So, you know, yeah, there's a building that's 4 feet from your property line, but it's facing away from you. There are certain things that we can do to try to address that, you know, or bathrooms with windows that have frosted glass. So you can let the light in, but you can keep the privacy, right? Is that totally reasonable? Um, I do think that people in general are coming to terms with that there are ADUs and there are more— there's more development coming. I think it's very easy to be NIMBY, you know? I mean, it's— we can all do it, right? But it's really easy to forget that we also moved here. So it's— I think it's going to be kind of an ongoing battle, but if we can try to consider others and their privacy issues. And, you know, I have one client who we've done several ADUs for in cities like Fullerton and Garden Grove and stuff. And I said, oh, by the way, you know, we're putting an ADU in the backyard. I said, by the way, you know, you can convert the garage to a junior ADU if you wanted to, because he had a tenant in the main house. He was going to have a tenant in the ADU. And so he's clearly doing this for investment. Purposes only. And so I said, well, you could convert the garage to a junior ADU. That's perfectly legal. And he's like, you know what? I don't want to mess with my neighbors. He doesn't even live there. He goes, I don't want to, you know, have 3 cars plus 4 cars plus 5 cars. There's already a parking issue. So is everybody like that?

No.

But there are things that we can do, right? Even if you go from 1 tenant to now 2, or 2 separate properties or, you know, incomes, that's already a pretty, pretty big Jump. We can, we can be considerate of others.

Yeah, but I think you're right. I mean, if you're going based off of looks, you know, of course they pick the guy that's like, he's like the developer guy and the sport coat, right? So you got to deal with it, folks, right? But you're absolutely right. I mean, you go up to Long Beach, it'll be like a house, apartment buildings, house, apartment buildings, house, apartment. And, and I guess now it seems completely normal, but I guess, you know, so it's kind of the same thing. Um, It's going to be weird at first, and then you just get used to it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we need more housing.

Yeah.

That's for sure. Are ADUs the only solution? No. You know, I mean, definitely there are far less ADUs being built than there are new units every, you know, every year. But what I do like is that if properly done, let's say you have an ADU that's in the backyard, and it's single story, and it's not overlooking the fences. You know, 9 times out of 10 from the street, you're not even going to know. You're not going to notice. Okay, maybe there's one more car. But how many houses do we see now where it's like, you know, the teenagers, then they get their cars, right? So you've already got several cars in one house. Maybe at some point those teenagers are moving out, right, going to college. And so now you're replacing the one car that's left with one car for the ADU.

Sure.

You know, we're not typically finding ADUs with like 5 or 6 people living in them. It's generally one or a couple. Or maybe a couple and a baby, and then they move up, you know, to another to another house. So I think we all need some more consideration. Yeah, yeah.

Quit complaining.

That's what people love to do.

They do.

It's easy.

That's gonna change.

It's easy.

That's all gonna change.

It's gonna change.

Well, I mean, you brought up we need new housing, more housing. That brings up like the regulations, and you know, we're just getting more and more and more of those. Making it harder and harder to build.

That's going to change.

How do you solve that problem?

Well, ironically, it's getting easier to make ADUs.

Right.

So that's great for us.

That's good news.

That is good news.

Yeah. There are some things that are getting harder. Some utilities are getting harder. The state's moving away from gas, natural gas, moving more towards electric. That can be challenging for some things. But less setbacks, less lot coverage issues, taller height limits, those kinds of things. It's getting easier. I think if we can maintain the quality, right? I mean, now, I'm not saying that just because we do custom ADUs versus like prefab, but I think it's obviously, it's always going to be easier to build a stucco box than it is to put some creativity in it and just at least have a couple of sides of that building with some different materials. So it looks, it looks good as well as being functional. That's, that's what I would, I would like to see, whether it's prefab or custom build.

Yeah, I think you're right, because you could really go just like cheap and trashy with it.

I've seen it.

Yeah, that's not the answer.

Sometimes, you know, sometimes we have to do that because that's the budgetary limitation, and it's like it's either that or somebody doesn't have a place to live, right? I mean, and I've seen projects, um, uh, where, you know, they're going to convert an attic into livable space and make it permitted and make it nice And they come to find out that there's somebody that's been living up there illegally for who knows how long.

Raccoon.

That's scary. No cooking facilities, doing takeout every day because people are desperate for housing.

Yeah. We were looking for a place to rent. People will call a studio, it literally is 4 walls and there's a bathroom, but yeah, there's no kitchen. So you're like, there's a hot plate maybe?

Right.

Like a sink studio.

Yeah, you should have like studio. I'd list that place and call it a studio.

Is it by the beach?

Yes, I know that's the part.

That's the closet.

Do you want to live near the beach? This is a studio. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, we had a studio by the beach. We had a full kitchen, full bathroom, and a walk-in closet. Yeah, thank you very much.

The key word there was had. Yeah, longing for—

no, they've, they've moved up.

We upgraded.

Yeah, they've upgraded.

Yeah, doing good things.

Yeah.

Um, I'm sure people have a lot more like ADU questions. What's the best way to get a hold of you?

Um, email probably.

Okay.

Yeah. Um, and I can, you know, I can leave you guys my card if you want to.

Yeah, sure.

But, um, I can say it on here if you want.

Sure.

Yeah, sure.

It's just shdesignethos@gmail.com.

Cool.

Yeah, email's probably the best. Perfect.

But okay, yeah, we'll hopefully send some more investors your way. And I know that's, uh—

That'd be great. I mean, you know, being the architect on a project, we are the quarterback. So, you know, we bring in the consultants, we bring in, um, other people to help on the project. So we are sending work out, you know, far more often than we're getting work in. You know, like, like I say, it's a cast of characters. So if a project comes our way You know, most people don't call a Title 24 company for, you know, to start a project, right? They're like, what's that all about? Or even a structural engineer. So, you know, structural engineers and folks like that, they depend on, on projects coming through us, right? So, so we're giving even a lot more than we're, than we're taking for sure. But yeah, if you got people that want to find out more, happy to, happy to help. Happy to talk.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Well, that, that, that flew by. That was amazing.

It was.

Yeah.

Wow, it's 5 after.

I know. I appreciate you coming down here.

You're welcome.

And I'm glad that you're local. And, you know, maybe we can get you at a meetup sometime.

Yeah, actually, I went earlier. What was it, last month maybe? I'll be there end of this month.

Oh, sweet.

Yeah.

Cool.

So, but yeah, thank you very much again for the opportunity. I'd be happy to come back if you ever want me for something else.

Yeah, love to.

Yeah. Thanks again.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you guys so much. Yeah, we have our meetup at the end of the month, so make sure you are RSVPing to that so you can get all the reminders.

You can RSVP?

Yep.

Oh yeah, that's right. You can through Meetup.

Yep. Yeah.

ocinvestormeetup.com. Take you right there.

Yeah.

So anything else?

Thank you. No, we're good.

Okay, cool. Well, yeah, thank you everybody in the chat. And, you know, if you're, if you caught the last half or, you know, the very end of it, make sure to go back, rewatch the beginning and share it with any new and experienced investors. In your life. We'll be back here next week. Thank you so much.

Bye.

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