'Are You Paying Attention?’ Why Learning Needs to Change with Benoît Hardy-Vallée

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Are you paying attention? Why learning needs to change then, and we dive into the future of learning today with Benoit Hardy-Vallet, who's the Director of Workforce Transformation at Deloitte. And Benoit brings years of experience in human capital consulting, learning strategy, HR transformation, and AI-powered solutions. So how do we make learning stick? Well, if you want to rethink that and how people can learn or how we can learn, well, then this episode is packed with examples and insights. All right, let's meet Benoit.

Okay. Hey, Benoit, did you do a vocal warm-up before coming on the podcast?

Um, no.

So I'm just asking, do you normally do a kind of vocal warm-up?

No, not no, not necessarily.

Okay. Do you want to? Do you want to do a quick one?

Sure.

All right.

Yeah, massaging the gums.

Perfect.

Yeah, massage the temples. Voilà. On est bon.

That part will be edited out, right?

No, this is it. This is okay.

All great.

This is part of the every podcast starts like this. Even even this moment is yeah.

All right.

Benoit, it's so great to have you on TFR. This feels right. We're gonna we're gonna jump in because. We were both presenting at Disrupt HR, and your presentation really stood out. And we're talking about learning, and not just learning, but you had a great analogy in your presentation. So on Disrupt HR, so if you don't mind, can you, for those that didn't see it, and we'll give the links afterwards, but for those that didn't see it, maybe you can give us the analogy of what the, of what, what your story was and learning in the future.

Absolutely. And thanks, Joel, for, for inviting me. Glad we had a chance to have this conversation. So it all started this summer, you know, first day of vacation. I go in the plane. And I guess I was still not fully off work because as the flight attendants start explaining the rules about security and safety, and of course, you have to blow this and then follow the lights and you cannot smoke. I mean, all the things we heard so many times and we know by heart. I somehow realized that, as usual, I was not listening. Nobody else was listening. And then the intuition just came to me like, oh, this is what a lot of corporate L&D feels like, both from the flight attendant, because you're trying to push content on people, and also from the passenger where you're being told something, you nod, but you don't really engage more than that. And I thought, well, I have this, you know, presentation about L&D and learning in HR that's coming. Maybe it could be like a good way to introduce maybe in a bold way the challenge with lots of corporate L&D these days.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And, and that is so true. And I think you had a great sort of aha around that as you were listening to the flight attendant. Do you remember what that aha moment was? I could share with you, but I'll give it to you if you want to share what it is.

No, no, for sure. Well, the, the aha moment was just pursuing this thought and thinking, what if we were, you know, in danger? I bet people would listen. I bet suddenly, and I would follow the instruction, right? Because you need context, you need an objective, you need—

Yes.

A certain situation in which the learning makes sense. And that's, and I think that says a lot about human cognition. Like, we like to apply it to a certain topic. We will engage in motivated learning, right? We will learn once we have a reason to learn. But learning for learning, unless it's something you're truly passionate about, you rarely take the time to do that.

Yeah, because we're— that's a good point because we're not— we may not be curious. And maybe we're coming in with, I've heard this before, or coming in with, I doubt this, or how is this going to be relevant to what I need? So I love the idea of the context. And that absolutely was the aha moment because I've Definitely thought that too, is what happens if we crash? I don't know what—

I don't—

panic will set in. What am I supposed to do with this? How do I blow this up?

Yeah. So you need to see where it's gonna lead. And ideally, not just in case in the future, but more just in time. You need to learn when you apply the learning, which is I would say still a gap in lots of corporate training and program. And I'm not trying to say that, that L&D leaders are not doing a great job. I'm not trying to take a jab at anybody. I just find that sometimes if you boost the contrast, it helps highlight some of the challenges that, that we know in the industry.

Yeah. So, so what are your thoughts of that? Like, if you were to, to say, hey, maybe because We do. We get into doing things the way we've always done it. So, so what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on how we can mix up this, this learning for, for it to feel just in time or to feel maybe more in, in a context?

So I, I think there's a profound question at the heart of it is, are we using learning for performance or compliance? And And I think sometimes we mix one with the other, or we treat one with the same frame of reference that we treat the other. Now, I understand that there are some learning rules, things that we want people to learn or to comply with, even if they don't like it. I'm sure for all kinds of reasons, lots of people don't necessarily want to take diversity training. Oftentimes it's the one that would need it the most. So I can appreciate that sometimes you don't need it, or sorry, you don't want it, but you might need it. And you cannot just give free rein to people to decide. But the way you deliver it, again, it counts. If you are slamming content on top of people, people might consume the content. It doesn't mean that they learn. And for many years we moved away from the classroom because it was deemed inefficient and costly, and probably for good reason. But the, the response to that was creating e-learning for everybody, which again is one way to learn. And there is value in watching maybe short clips, small videos at certain time, but long training session or having a long list of those trainings. It's not how we learn, right? We learn with reinforcement. Learning helps you change your behavior. Rarely a video helps you change your behavior.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I've delivered enough learning that I know when the client asks, can we have some videos that they can look on their own time? And then you can look and you can see Nobody's watching these videos. And fair enough. It's— we're all busy. Some, you know, you can't even think about— you were talking about going for a walk on the lake. Sometimes you might even think, I don't have time to go for a walk on the lake, even though, you know, it's gonna feel good. You're gonna feel better for it. It's a 5-minute walk from your house. But same thing about, I can't watch a 10-minute video. I don't have 10 minutes.

No, because a lot of that learning is out of the flow, so to speak, right?

Yes.

Because you work, you work, you work, then you have to stop your work, engage in another activity whose outcome is important. I don't doubt that, but it feels like you have to do non-work for the sake of it, which again, and in certain professions or jobs, it's complicated. If you're a cashier, what, you're supposed to take some time off? Are you going to get paid for those extra hours, right? So, there's a whole psychology of how much time you are willing to spend learning outside of work. And if it's just to consume content, again, it won't reinforce behavior. I mean, most of the things that we learn is via contact with others, engaging in practice, getting feedback. And you look at so many professions, how, you know, if you Exclude knowledge workers. But how do firemen and women, policemen and women, military people who work at a bakery— how do you learn? You do something, you get feedback, and then sometimes, you know, you need the theory behind it, which is useful. As a baker, you need to understand a bit about chemistry. You don't need a doctorate in chemistry, but understanding how certain factors like heat or humidity will affect your bread. And you're motivated to learn that because you want to have a good bread cooking Being ready. And I think we sometimes we forget how learning should be tied to action and to practice.

Oh, Benoit, if it wasn't for my botched plastic surgery, there'd be a tear here because that is absolutely— I totally agree with you without a doubt. I mean, I never liked school. I did not enjoy school. And so whenever I'm delivering learning, I always, always wanted to be experiential.

Yeah.

Make it fun. But most importantly, what I noticed is that people love to learn about themselves. How can I bring out the best in myself in these situations? So to the baker, how can I bring out the best in myself to want to bake the best bread? What is the behavior maybe that I need to do to do that? Am I someone who needs to try and fail? Am I someone who needs to really take time in reading the recipe and going slowly? Do I need to go really fast? Everyone has different styles as to how they want to approach that. But learning about themselves, I think, is so important. That happens, as you said, when you get some feedback, because it's things you may not observe about yourself, about what you were doing, that is so important.

Yeah. All form of learning is a form of behavioral change. Right? And, and, you know, in a way, I was the opposite because I, I did enjoy school. Like, I went to university. I got a BA, MA, postdoc, everything because it was, you know—

Show off.

No, no, no. No. But I mean, I, I used to love learning this way because I was motivated. I wanted to get a degree and I wanted to publish, right? So it was something I needed to learn for me, not just for— well, especially after a certain level, you're not just sitting and listening what it is what the professor is telling you. You are engaging in research activities. And then this is how I learn, right? And we were talking before, so in the past I, I once had a small podcast and I found it so valuable because I was learning through conversation. And when I think about my job or jobs, every time I learn on the job because I had colleagues who were spending time with me, or I work on a project, on a proposal, and then you get feedback, sometimes by the client, sometimes by your colleagues. This is how you develop your skills. So I think we conflate sometimes the acquisition of skills with Training, right? Or, or pushing content on, on people.

Yes.

Yes.

Absolutely. I think, I think those are really great observations. And, and there you go. We're, we're 2, we have 2, we had 2 different types of learning styles where you are, you're hung— you're hungry to open that book and learn more. And I, I just like, I, I need to try and fail basically.

Yeah.

Give me the gist and then I just need to try and fail. As it goes forward. So, thinking, let's just brainstorm a little bit then here. So, going back to your original analogy of being on that airplane, you know, what could be— let's have some fun with this— what could be some possible ways they could change the way they deliver the safety training so that it sticks?

So, I don't necessarily have a solution, but I have a follow-up anecdote that happened to me actually last week. Last time I was on a train and coming back from a presentation, and the, and the, the instruction, the safety instruction in the train are a bit simpler, and they don't do that for the whole train. They only go see people who are sitting near some specific windows or exit, and they say, you, sir, ma'am, do you mind? But actually, the way it was delivered to me The gentleman who was manning the room came to me and said, "Hey, you know, since you are sitting there, if anything happened, just make sure you try to break the window. This is where the hammer is. I'll try to do it first, but if I can, you can do that. Are you okay with that?" I said yes, and then that was it. And see, I remember every single word because it was simple. It was just specific to one thing, and it was. personalized. He went talking to me.

Yes.

It wasn't like a broad or broadcast to a whole room where nobody feels any sense of accountability. And he, again, he, he was nice and pleasant and he was talking to me. So of course I listened and it was short. So all the ingredients were there for, and I didn't feel like, oh, again, right? It just felt like Okay, just FYI, if anything happened, this is the process. And now I know the process.

Yes.

So if we follow up— sorry, the analogy. Sorry, I love these anecdotes.

No, no, but that's, but that's, that's a, that's a great example. And I've been on that train getting that talk. And, and I noticed that, you know, points, they point to the little hammer, and you look up, you actually see where it is.

Yeah. And I think to me that, that speaks to how good learning happens now. You break it down, you personalize it, you keep it, you know, it's a bit like in pharmaceutical drug development, right? What's the minimal effective dose?

Right.

What's the single, what's the minimal amount of learning that will be enough to give me what I need to operate? And in certain cases, maybe people don't need to learn, maybe just a certification or a pledge not to do XYZ is Mm-hmm. And I would say that with technology, if you look at the WalkMe or all the other digital adoption platforms, we now have technology that can support us in the action at the moment of use rather than having the need to ingest all that knowledge in advance. If you are in a CRM, you don't remember how to move an opportunity from stage A to stage B, There's a little popup, and it's going to tell you. It could show you a video, like, all different ways of configuring it. But the logic is that the tool is help— is there to help you perform your task rather than comply with a rule.

You, you have, you have, yeah, there's, there's 2 thoughts there. One is, well, one is you gotta sort of practice it. And the second part is, what's the—

I love this—

what's the minimum that you need? Because So often, you know, we put in the titles of our learning mastering something. You can't really master something in a day.

Yeah.

Because you can't really change your behavior today. You spent so many years creating that behavior. It's not really going to change in a day. But can you master maybe one skill or one technique or one thing that's just going to, you know, 10%, just going to improve that 10%? In what you're doing, just move it forward a little bit.

And again, in the logic of mastering something, it means that you've been practicing. One of my best learning experiences was actually here at my current company at Deloitte University. We spent 2 days, there was not a single slide. Okay, there was a title slide, but that was it. There was no content poured on us that we had to watch and then ask questions at the end. It was a series of exercises. We were doing things throughout. At no time was I left alone being asked to, I don't know, you know, just keep reading the content and keep working on it.

Yes.

No, we were actively engaged and nobody had the time to start multitasking and check your email or think about something else because you were either working in 2 or as a team or presenting.

Yes.

And this is how we learn, right? We do things, we get feedback from all different sources, and hopefully we get better. So you're not a master after a day or two, but you start mastering and it feels good, right? I mean, everybody remember Daniel Pink, autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I think learning should, or L&D department should be helping with that mastery.

Absolutely.

There's no—

I agree. Again, you can't sit there looking at slides. People want to learn about themselves and they learn about themselves when they're experiencing it, when they're brainstorming, when they're doing activities, not when they're sitting there reading slides after slide after slide. And then the person says, any questions afterwards? So yeah, that's not good. You know, I'm thinking about the flight safety and I'm thinking, do we still need to know how to put a seatbelt on? Like, can that be— can we eliminate that part of our safety instruction?

And that's a good question, right? If I look just from my perspective as a learner, I'd be like, yeah, what are the odds, and is it going to make any difference? Now, I understand that from an airplane perspective, well, you don't want to be in a situation where you don't tell people in the rare occasion where it happens, what they should be doing. Maybe there are other ways of communicating it than a dry broadcast message. I know a couple of years ago, some companies started to do like funny or interesting videos that you would actually want to watch. And they, you know, they engage you. I mean, for people who travel a lot, I guess the novelty wears off. But at least there was a reflection that Okay, we understand it's not exactly, you know, the funniest thing in the world, but we need you to pay attention. Yes, I would think also that, again, I think the next time there's a bump when you are on a flight or any kind of trouble happen, maybe you just reinforce the, you know, the instruction because then people would pay attention. I mean, you don't wait for people to have an actual crash, of course, no. But could you use these opportunities almost tongue-in-cheek, right? And telling people, see, see how it's shaking now? Maybe you should listen.

Maybe.

Yeah. I mean, again, this is when they, when they used to just have the one screen on an airplane, they would never show any airplane movies, right? Because it's all about keeping your mind off the, off your fear of flying. So it's a tough one with the safe, with the safety about, yeah, saying, you know, if you were in a crash, not that it's gonna happen, So it is a tough one.

Exactly. But if you look at other, other cases where safety training is baked into the way people work, right? If you think about mining and utilities, and then increasingly now with VR, you can create technically something that is out of the flow because they are not working, right? They are immersed in this environment and they are learning about potential dangers. And so you have a situation that looks dangerous, but that it is not because it's, it's only virtual. But there's a lot of learning because it's mimicking the real world. And this is something that they will apply very shortly because first you learn how to operate the machine in VR, then you learn in real life. So that helps reinforce that learning. It's closer to action. Either visually or via simulation or via coaching. So I think the key is just finding all these different ways by which you can bring more reality in learning, or then assume that what you're doing is not really training. It's more of a kind of communication. And if it's not engaging, then people won't pay attention.

What a great summary, because absolutely, that— I think that sums it up. You know, bring it, bring it into, bring it into action. It's, it's about communication, communication communication that engages people. And let's forget about the word about mastering completely unless it's going to be something that's going to be a longer process with some coaching, with some feedback, and different ways of delivering that training to make it into context.

Yeah.

Benoit, I've got— before we find out a little bit more about where to find out about you and we sign off, I always like to ask one, you know, deep or meaningful question. Are you ready for it?

Of course, of course, anytime.

All right.

Well, I love that you said that you were, you know, such a good student. You were, you've followed the path all the way to your doctorate. So if you weren't going to, and you ended up into the consultant world, and maybe you did something before, I don't know. But if you were not going to go down this consultant path, you know, what was little Benoit? What did little Benoit think he was going to grow up to become?

So, so many things which I guess converge in a little bit of the work that I'm doing now. I started in life being fascinated by science. I was reading everything because I love to understand how the world works. And I have little tolerance for rumors, superstition, or any form of magical thinking. I was always the Debbie Downer that was saying, are you sure? I think there's a simpler way of explaining things, right? So So this is really core to my identity, right? Find the mechanism, find the law of nature, the phenomenon that explains something behind the phenomenon. And then when I get, I guess, a bit older, I mean, close to teenager, then I was fascinated by literature, right? Completely in a whole other world. I discovered poetry and philosophy and all that. Then I ended up studying philosophy. So this is where I did my BA and PhD, which was partly treacherous because there's a wording, a worded expression, and part science because you are analyzing. And then one day, as I like to say, philosophy makes you really good at having deep thoughts about unemployment. So I had to switch and figure out what am I going to do with my life? Is there a life outside university? And this is how I fell into consulting. So I don't think I knew consulting, what consulting was before I started Googling, what do I do with a PhD in philosophy? I had a vague understanding, but being young, I thought I would be in science or a scientific-ish field. And I like to think that I try to bring as much rigor as I can to the work that I do.

Well, I love the balance that you have of the, yeah, the science and the literature and the philosophy. That, you know, a lot of consultants would go the path of just studying business and very little life experience, and then all of a sudden getting their MBA and becoming a consultant. But, but sort of limited. Like, I love that you have this varied perspective that you can offer in the work that you do, and you continue obviously to be pushing yourself, presenting, speaking, and, and growing and continuing to, to be curious, which is lovely. So Benoit, where can, you know, maybe people want to learn more about Benoit? Where can we, where can we connect with you or find out more about you?

The easiest way is on LinkedIn. I tend to share everything that I do there. I'm not really active on any other platform. And I used to have a podcast called Abrupt Future. You can still find the recording online.

Abrupt Future. Okay. And it's Benoit Hardy-Valley.

Yes. H-A-R-D-Y hyphen V-A-D-U-L-L-E-E.

Perfect.

Benoit, thank you so much for being a guest on TFR, This Feels Right. This was very insightful. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. My pleasure.

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