'Feedback the Good' Give feedback that inspires action, not resistance with Joel Silverstone

Welcome to TFR This Feels Right podcast. Every episode, we're sharing impactful communication skills you need, or you didn't even know that you needed them until you've listened to this episode. I'm Joel Silverstone, your host, and I'm excited to have you on this journey with us. I'm also the founder of TFR This Feels Right, where for over 25 years, we've been helping leaders, and teams from top organizations build and elevate their communication skills in presentations, team building, and difficult conversations. And if you want to learn more, head on over to thisfeelsright.ca. All right, before we get to our episode, we kindly ask you to do us a favor. If you could leave a review, a rating, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode of impactful communication skills that feel right. Let's get to our show.

Listener, this is the episode. I'm really excited about this episode. I think you will be too, based on the fact that so many organizations and so many people I speak to when I talk about the word feedback and everyone always rolls their eyes and goes, oh yeah, we need to talk about that. In fact, the irony is those words, we need to talk, Creates that kind of feeling that we're going to talk about here, which is feedback, the good feedback, the good. How can we make feedback much more actionable and less about resistance? When I think about feedback, I think about Jaws. You know, there's only a couple of things that I'm afraid of in life. One of them is sharks and the other one is the dentist. But let's talk about Sharks. Let's talk about Jaws. The funny thing about Jaws is we don't actually see the shark until about an hour and 21 minutes into the film. All that's happening before is this buildup, this anticipation. And I think we've all been there when we can relate to that. When we think about feedback, we think about the anticipation. We hear that music going. We hear the "We need to talk." Do you have five minutes? Can I give you some feedback on?

And our mind starts.

Racing as though the shark is approaching us. Another reason that feedback has this emotional reaction is growing up. If you're like me, never got called into the principal's office because we got an A. In fact, I can remember even the principal even throwing his keys at me and said, "You run the school." He was so upset with me. But that's the thing about feedback is that somehow we associated with being reprimanded or we're going to be lectured. And that it's going to become personal, just like that principal was with me throwing his keys at me. What about if we were to think about feedback as something that could actually help people and we could reframe that conversation? Because that's the intention behind it. But often, sometimes it's our own frustration that relate it or it's not even that we're relating to it. It's our own awkwardness and we get into the case of sugarcoating. So, one of the things that gets us there, and this is going to sound really familiar, is something called the sandwich model. And as one leader shared with me, another way to put the sandwich model is, I need to give negative feedback. But how do I make it sound positive? And that's the sandwich model, which is— I always think of this as like an empty calorie sandwich, which is that it's sort of got that Wonder white bread. And then, you got the sort of the meat in the middle or the filling in the middle. And then, again, that white bread at the bottom of And the idea behind the sandwich model is that, which is you start with that positive and then you get to the meat of it. You get to the heart of it, what the real issue is. And then you try to end it on that nice positive. But it's really, it's an empty calorie. It doesn't work because if you've ever had any kind of training around coaching or giving feedback, it's often talking about this sandwich model. And here's the question. Has this really worked for anyone? Because often what happens in that sandwich model is The leader might say, hey, great work. But what I really want to talk to you about is your presentation skills and how you lack confidence in them. And I noticed that with the client, they really were losing interest and you looked really like you were stumbling along and you didn't seem prepared. And like a list, a grocery list that comes out of it. And then it'll often end with that positive and, okay, so, you know, keep up the good work and Let's talk about the 12 things that you need to work on. Really not a good feeling. So, that needs to change. So, that's why the sandwich model is not effective. And also probably why only 26% of employees strongly agree that feedback was actually helpful when it came from their manager. Because if you're on the receiving end of that sandwich model, did you hear any kind of positive? The positive was good work. What did that mean? That was like empty. Nobody ever heard that. It was like a yes, but. You only hear the but part of that. So, let's reframe that positive. So, instead of saying, I'm going to give you an empty calorie positive like, you know, like, hey, you rock, or hey, great work. But more around, if it's around presentation skills, you could start with a more collaborative statement. Such as, I know presenting is something you want to get stronger at, and it's part of some of the goals that you had mentioned towards your career or leadership path. So I want to give you a couple of ideas to strengthen the content that you're very knowledgeable about and how we can make that a stronger message on how it's being received, and you're going to feel more confident and comfortable. Would you be open to talking about a couple of things? I'd also like to get your perspective on that. Or you can even, even at the end, you can also say, and I'm going to share some ideas with you. How does that sound? And I'd also like to get your perspective on that. So already it's a collaborative statement. And if you think of yourself delivering a statement like that, which is, I know how important this is to you and this is something you're going on your path. And I know that you are very comfortable with the knowledge part of that, or you know the content really well. Let's talk about how you can strengthen the delivery of the message or how you're going to deliver the message. So it's really talking about the issue and not the person. So there's a couple things going on there. And most importantly, it's step 1, which is a mindset in giving feedback that is— and this is one of my favorite sayings— which is soft on the person, hard on the problem. I'm gonna say it again, soft on the person, hard on the problem. So it's not making the other person the problem or the focus, but looking at the problem together. So we could both agree that being better at presentations is going to improve your leadership capabilities, your career, give you more confidence in meetings. We're really looking at the issue and not the person. So now you've started with an intention and not criticism. You've taken out your own awkwardness about Knowing that you got to deliver this tough message. Well, it's no longer a tough message because the intention is now around their growth. So for them, it's actually being helpful. One more thing about positive feedback. When we give positive feedback and when it's praise and when it's recognition that is specific, it's not just a, hey, you rock, or high five, but it's really a specific Hey, when you presented those ideas and you really took your time in underlining the importance and what was the importance of each bullet that you were saying, and you had an anecdote to back it up, I saw the client leaning in and that's why they started asking you questions because you piqued their curiosity when you gave that specific feedback. So, recognition is 92% of the time people will repeat that action. When you give specific feedback and recognition, again, specific, 92% of the time people will repeat that action because people want to know what is it they did well. Not that just they rocked. Okay. But what is the skill or the effect of the behavior that they had so that they know that they can repeat that? Now, if you were listening closely to the example I just gave, you may have noticed an I message. Not an iMessage you send on your phone, but a message where I'm using the I. And that is the idea of the second part of what we want to do, which is observe the issue and not the person by using an I statement. So lots of times we might say, without even realizing it, hey, you're always late, or you don't seem confident in your presentations, or you're You're always getting the template wrong. First off, they're all exaggerations. There's nothing specific about that. So obviously someone's going to get defensive when they do that. But the other part that people are going to get defensive is if you're on the receiving end, all you're hearing is you, you, you, you. It sounds really personal. So we want to stop making it sound like we're talking about the person and stop making it sound personal. And that's why it feels like criticism. So switching to, I observe, I see, I noticed, and then being really specific again. So not just you're being specific about, just like you're being specific about the positive, you also wanna be specific about the change that you wanna see. So for example, I noticed on slide 12 when you were talking about scalability, you got really quiet. I'm wondering what was going on for you at that moment, or what were your thoughts at that moment? As opposed to, hey, you really lack confidence in the presentation and you got very quiet numerous times. That's just going to create defensiveness and panic. So when we're using that I message and we're being very specific, we're creating an environment where it's a dialogue, where the other person starts to feel safe And start to be able to share what's going on in their world. Not, I'm gonna tell you what to do and you're just gonna do it. Again, so that's why we feel like we're being called into the principal's office. But we're asking questions. What was going on for you in that presentation on slide 12? When you're talking about scalability, you got really quiet. That's the part of the relationship. And this is the part where— this is the part we often— I've noticed where people fall off. Is this the part where you need to listen? Listen without making assumptions, and listen without trying to solve the problem right there. So if you have invited someone to share their thoughts, so you don't listen closely because there is a clue and a cue. And what I often when I say clue, I always think of the clue clue clue bird. So have that in the back of your mind. Listen for that clue bird. And just like, as you know, my background's in film and TV. So just like in a script for a TV show that, you know, whether the, the character, the words are written down, it's part of the character's arc. It's part of the character's journey. And if you're watching that on film or TV, you know, you need to listen to what the character is saying because there's often a clue or cue to maybe the behavior or the secret that's going on for them. So same thing, have that same mindset that when someone is speaking, you want to hear to the end of the sentence of what they're saying, or else you're going to miss what's going on the next page. And now we're getting to the part of where we have that, the exchange, where we want them to agree to those next steps. And we don't want to sugarcoat it. And sugarcoated often is where at the end of the feedback, you might just go, okay, so we're—

you got this, right?

We're good, right? And they're like, yeah. But it, and it's those, yeah, those empty yeah calories again.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, to what? Yeah. That we just want to get out of this. We need to get the other person to actually verbalize or write it down to what it is that they want to own. If you want to create a behavior change, people have to, they're— People are smart. They need, they want to take ownership on this. Give them the opportunity to own the change that they want to make versus telling them. You've had enough, a long enough discussion that they have an idea. And the idea also of feedback is it's not a full coaching session where we're really going to dive into this. Feedback is about 1 or 2 things that someone can start to do differently and build on that. So for example, there's that dialogue that's been going on about the needing to be improving on your presentation skills. And funny enough, I've seen too often a manager suggest that their employee work on their presentation skills by doing some e-learning. How effective would that be? And often it's because it shows that the manager's not really invested in their growth and they've kind of washed their hands of this person and just go, well, there's no point. They're just not confident. They're just not going to be able to do it. And that's kind of how it feels for the other person on the receiving end. So if you need to do that, like we say, we need for the other person to verbalize what it is that they're going to do and not speak about all the points. So it might sound something like, it sounds like, you know, with presentation skills that you lose your train of thought because sometimes there's many points that you want to get across. So based on what we spoke in the past few minutes, what would you say are 1 or 2 things that you want to put into practice or try before your next presentation? And Silence. Don't answer.

Pause.

And they might say something like, well, I'd love to be able to practice with you before I go, because now they feel safe with you as opposed to feeling judged or assessed. Or they might say, I'm going to put some bullet points on a Post-it note by my laptop if I'm doing a virtual presentation so I can remember what are the bullets that I want to remember. I might remember to slow down. I might remember to breathe. Whatever it is that they're going to say, That's the one or two things that we want to work on. And then we say, great. Let's do those next steps. Repeat what you just heard and create a check-in, a follow-up. Let's check in for this in a week from now. Let's put it in our calendars because if it's in the calendar, it's going to happen. So this idea is mindset, starting with intention, not criticism. 2, observing the issue, not the person, using I statements. 3, the relationship skills of listening to understand and not assuming. And then 4, finally, the exchange to agree to action and not sugarcoat. Now, one of the things as we sort of wrap this up is how not to take it personally. I love this acronym that's called Q-TIP, Quit Taking It Personally. But it's up to us for that person giving that feedback to take the accountability and think a little bit deeper around the issue and think about the sense of purpose for them. What could be a motivator for them? So, for example, someone was sharing the other day they had to give feedback to a colleague or a peer in another department. And they found that other person was often quite negative. And so when that happens, already you're thinking, this is going to be a tough conversation. And so what they would do— we'll call this person KJ— what KJ would often do is they would say, how's your day going? They would kind of sugarcoat and beat around the bush before getting into it because they knew the other person was always going to say stuff like, I don't like it. They were just always negative about working collaboratively on projects. So instead, why not jump in and use this rule from the world of improv, which is start at the middle and start with a yes, and mindset? Why not start with a more collaborative type of statement? Because one of the reasons that they're being so negative, the other person to KJ, is that they have high expectations. And so when we want to speak to those high expectations, what motivates them? What's that sense of purpose? So a collaborative statement might sound something like, You know, we'll call this other person AJ. Look, AJ, we both want a great looking product. So let's discuss the steps to get there and how we could both contribute towards that. And so that's a collaborative statement. We're no longer sugarcoating. We're no longer talking about our weekend, our day. We're telling the other person that we're confident in our abilities, but we're also confident in this relationship. People will get defensive, not about what you say, but people get defensive about why are you saying that. Is there an ulterior motive? Why are you sugarcoating? Why are you waffling around that? So already, so you get that person's spidey sense going. But if you start at the middle of the story, why we're here and what we both want to accomplish, speaking to that type of person that has high expectations, is a great way to get that conversation going. So when that happens, this is gonna be more motivational to the next time that we say, we need to talk. Because now that JAWS model, that shark model, that anticipation is no longer extinct. Because now there's momentum. We know there's value in these conversations. It's not just gonna be about being called into the principal's office. And so again, from the world of improv, it's a yes and mindset and start in the middle of the story. I look forward. This brings to an end our feedback podcast, Feedback: The Good. I would love to hear your examples and how you've tried some of these models and/or ideas. And so, do reach out to me on LinkedIn or again, check us out at thisfeelsright.ca. All right, enjoy. Feedback, the good.

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