Connecting with Gen Z at Work with Erin Patchell

Welcome to TFR This Feels Right podcast. Every episode, we're sharing impactful communication skills you need, or you didn't even know that you needed them until you've listened to this episode. I'm Joel Silverstone, your host, and I'm excited to have you on this journey with us. I'm also the founder of TFR This Feels Right, where for over 25 years, we've been helping leaders, and teams from top organizations build and elevate their communication skills in presentations, team building, and difficult conversations. And if you want to learn more, head on over to thisfeelsright.ca. All right, before we get to our episode, we kindly ask you to do us a favor. If you could leave a review, a rating, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode of impactful communication skills that feel right. Let's get to our show. In today's episode, Connect with Gen Z at Work, I'm joined by Aaron Patchell, founder of Positivist Group, and Aaron's insights into how this generation shaped by autonomy, social media, and evolving norms, how they think about work, belonging, and feedback. So if you're a leader or teammate looking to better understand Gen Z, stick around for practical insights on fostering connection and engagement. All right, let's learn a little bit more about our guest, Aaron Patchell, who is a seasoned social entrepreneur with 2 businesses, Positives Group and Cludi. Aaron is a business strategist, a leadership coach, and host of the podcast Weirdos in the Workplace. All right, let's meet Aaron and connecting with Gen Z at work.

Here we are at This Feels Right Podcast. Erin, so good to see you again. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. How are you feeling today?

I'm wonderful today. It's Friday. It's a beautiful day. How are you, Joel?

I'm feeling good. I wouldn't say it's a beautiful day. It's rainy. And we're in different— we're in different areas. But absolutely, I'm hoping for sunny skies this weekend. So we're talking about a topic that I'm really curious about, because this is something I know nothing about. And I'm looking forward to your expertise on this. around— we don't want to label it, but we'll call it Gen Z, or, or Gen Zed as a Canadian, where basically it's this new workforce that is coming in. And how do leaders and other people within the organization, maybe who are from different generations or different perspective, or maybe different values, beliefs, how do they communicate with this new generation and maybe help them find their sense of belonging, uh, as they're coming into it? So I guess my first question is to you then, Erin, is what— no, how would you say this generation, like, what's their challenge coming into the workforce? What's their challenge?

Yeah. Well, I will— I'll preface this by saying, or preface this by saying that I feel uniquely qualified to talk about this in a few different reasons. One is that I myself have gone through numerous identity crises over my lifetime. And the second is that I have— I I am the owner of management consultancy Positivist Group, and we do this work helping leadership communicate with all generations and building inclusion in businesses. And the third reason, of course, is that I'm the mother of 3 teenagers who are all Gen Zs, and I have a deep personal experience, you know, with this. And I know that you're also a parent of a couple of Gen Zs as well, I believe, Joel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is good. This is going to help me as a parent understand what's going on there and how to better communicate with them.

There's a lot of parallels, honestly. There are. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, we're working with theories here. We don't have, you know, there's not, not like, you know, complete evidence or proof of what's going on in the world. It's really complex world that we live in right now. As you know, the way that I like to think about this is, you know, before, just before the conversation, you were describing to me kind of the world that you lived in, a, you know, a generation.

That's okay. We can say it.

He's a boomer. Sorry, guys. Well, as a boomer, I was like dancing around the world. But no, but as a baby boomer, as a very young baby boomer, you know, you grew up in a world where when you were a young person, there weren't that many opportunities available. You kind of knew what you were probably going to do unless for work and in your life you had a pathway or you had a map or guide, right? Based on usually what your parents did as well, what your community, what kind of community you were involved in, what socioeconomic level you were in, etc., etc. And so maybe you can just describe that for us for a minute, Joel.

Yeah, sure. Well, it was really simple. You were— there was 2 choices. It was like either you went to the factory and you went to ask, and you went to find the boss and said, boss, can I have a job? And didn't matter if it was like a multi-corporate company, somehow the boss was always there and you were hired on the spot. Or you went to university college and you studied to be a doctor or lawyer. Those were like kind of the 2 paths that you were you were kind of told is what you're going to do.

Right. Yeah. So there's, there's a, you know, a map for you to follow. You know, you know, you're growing up, you probably have certain strengths. There's maybe, you know, maybe you're— I came from a family of entrepreneurs, for example, right? So for me to become an entrepreneur, that was a, that was sort of a map that I could follow. Even though I was told my whole life as an elder millennial, I believe we call them geriatric millennials now.

Okay.

Wow.

All right.

Right? Like, as a geriatric millennial, I was told I can be whatever I want to be when I grow up, right? But that wasn't really true. We hadn't really fully embodied that as a culture. We were— the culture was starting to tend to trend towards, you know, self-determination and autonomy. And really that idea of like, you can be anything you want to be when you grow up, while it feels empowering, it actually for a lot of people can be very disempowering, especially if you don't have the kind of opportunities that, you know, people who are, you know, disenfranchised, marginalized, especially coming from socioeconomic disadvantaged backgrounds, that is just not open for those people. However, if you fast forward to today, you know, some of that is still true, right? People from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds still don't have the same opportunities that everyone else does, and that probably will always be true. However, there is, I think due to social media, due to this, you know, we have the gig economy, you know, we have free constantly. Everyone is a freelancer. Even if you've got a full-time job, you, you know, you have social media, you can be a social media influencer, you can, you know, play video games for a living, literally. So we have this idea that you literally can be anything you want to be when you grow up, you know.

Mm-hmm.

If you want to be a lawyer who's also a tax accountant, who's also, you know, a wedding officiant, who's also a whatever, you, you can, you can be that. You can be Barbie, you know, right? Barbie with her 500 different jobs.

Well, it seems like if you— it seems like if you want to be a lawyer, you're also going to be a TikTok influencer. I think that's where the— that's where this generation seems to be going. I don't think they— I don't know if they see themselves as having 3 jobs, but I think somehow they see themselves as having a profession, but having this, like you said, like this side gig.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like, I think at one point, my daughter said she wanted to be a veterinarian, a lawyer, a business owner, and the wife of an NHL player. This was several years ago. You know, she's 17 now.

So she probably is, she probably will check off all those boxes.

Right? Well, you never know. Like, that's certainly— I don't know if that's possible. But you know what, She can do anything she wants.

Well, so that's— so is that the challenge for this generation then, where they are sensing that they're— where we might think, oh, you have to follow this path, you have to follow that path to do it. And this generation is thinking like, no, I can do whatever I want. I can be the wife of an NHLer. I can be a lawyer. I can be a veterinarian. I can absolutely accomplish all those things.

I think that there's a sense that it's possible. You know, so it kind of creates, it's almost like a mass hallucination is what I've started to call it, of this idea that if we can be all things to all people, or we can do whatever we want to do, you know, that's A, that's setting yourself up for a major failure when you realize there are actually constraints in life. And B, it's creating like this really, I don't want to say self-centered, but autonomous, this idea of like self-determination, like pure self-determination, which is a beautiful idea. Right? That I am totally in control of myself and I can do anything I want to do. But it's also creating sort of this like disembodied kind of idea where we don't have— the roots don't go very deep.

Right.

So the roots don't go very deep anymore. And we see that in the relationships. And, you know, there's lots of people who talk about this. Like CDC came out, I think it was last year, talking about the loneliness epidemic for exactly this reason. The roots aren't going deep enough really to to, to drink in the nutrition that they need to grow, right? If we want to keep going with that tree metaphor.

Sure, why not?

Why not? So, you know, we see people who are more lonely than ever, apparently. Now, I have a very— like, obviously I have my own biased view because I see a lot of healthy relationships with my kids and their friends and things like that. But overall, I think that You know, I believe in science, you know, and I believe in data. And so even though I think I have a fairly biased viewpoint of, I see healthy young people, you know, I do, I do believe that what we're being told is accurate, you know, that, and I hear this from others as well. In fact, one of my, my comp— one of my companies, yes, one of my companies, the startup Cluedi, which is a platform that is helping to build disability inclusion in retail businesses, smaller brick-and-mortar businesses. We went through a process with Invest Ottawa a few months ago to help, you know, support the business. And one of the other companies that was in the same cohort with us, this is exactly what they were trying to do. They're building an entire business around helping young people feel less lonely. It's a real problem, and I believe it's a real problem.

So how— so if I'm my generation and you're your generation and someone comes to work for our company in that, you know, in this sort of, I don't know what you want to say, I guess, where they're not used to relationships, where maybe there is a bit more self-involvement and, or maybe this hallucination that they could do anything they want. So how do we, if we're running this company or whether a manager, how do we, because we have different values, obviously, and we have different perceptions. So how do we communicate with this generation that's maybe not seeing things the way we're seeing things?

I, I don't know if it's value. See, this is where I struggle. It's— I, I feel like the—

Well, I'll tell you why it's value. I'll tell you why it's values, because what I see is I see a lot of leaders, you know, who are always mystified, like, you know, like the classic example is, I need this by the end of the day tomorrow. And to that generation, sometimes the end of the day means Sometime before midnight.

And so that's norms. Yeah.

Well, that's— well, but that's also sort of the values of like, you know, work hard and you grew up working, you work 9 to 5. And this generation maybe is more about, you know, working at their own hours. And they'll get it done when they'll get it done. They're not always going to feel that, you know, our— my generation is always about you have to work hard. If you're gonna get the job in the factory, you're gonna get the job, or you're gonna go to university.

It's—

I mean, it's about all about hard work. It's not about You, you think you can do it.

Right. So like, to me, it is a bit more about norms and the fact that they didn't grow up with these norms, you know. And so the norms didn't translate into behavior because they don't have any practice. They don't have a, like, a template to follow, right? So the template for you and even for myself was, you know, we get things when we have a deadline, we get it in. You know, it wouldn't even cross my mind when I was in high school. If I missed a deadline, it was gone forever, you know?

Right.

But now in high school, if they miss a deadline, they're told just get it in when you can, right? So their template has changed. The norms that they've grown up with have changed. Their values, though, you know what? I think their values are similar. They care about what other people think. They care. I mean, obviously, this isn't— I'm painting a huge broad stroke here. But, you know, I don't know that human values have changed that much.

Okay. So I like the idea of norms. Let's go to the norms. So if it's the norms, then how do we— we've got different norms than their norms because they said, like, they— we've been given this structure. You grew up with entrepreneurial parents. You kind of had some guidelines as to what that meant. And you're a great example about school. Absolutely. So how do we, how do we communicate? Because like, that's the thing, like I see a lot of people who are sort of, you know, our generation or my generation, your generation, loop it together, who are just frustrated on how to communicate or how to motivate them.

Yeah.

Without, without sort of offending them or losing, losing their engagement.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's about being upfront and honest about who we are as a company. So knowing your culture, right? Knowing your culture, knowing your that your brand matches your culture. So the way that you're being perceived on the outside matches the way you are on the inside. If the organization is having an identity crisis, bringing people in, new generations, new, new team members in who are also having an identity crisis, is just a recipe for disaster. So you, you knowing who you are as an organization and living who you are as an organization is what gives, brings the pattern, like that, that strong pattern that your new employees or any employee frankly needs in order to feel confident in the organization and know where they can fit in, how they can fit in, right? And, and also be themselves, I hope, right? So because we do have this, you're never going to get away from individualization, you're— we're never going to get away from self-determination anymore.

Right.

This is here to stay as long as Social media is here to stay, right? So, you know, giving people as much freedom as you can within that pattern, but having very strong pattern. And I keep saying the word pattern, but you know what I mean is norms, is demonstrated values, is, you know, is policies, all of these things that create structure in an organization. And the way you communicate around that and reinforce that pattern is so, so important. And doing it with respect, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, because, uh, I don't know about you, but like with my kids, I'm their parent, but I'm also like— this is the— this is a different generation because we also listen to the same music. Like, so like we're also kind of their friend.

Yeah.

Um, where our parents, we didn't listen to the same music. It was like their, their music, you know, our music was— so there was sort of this disconnect. But now we're— we You know, I'm still out doing things with my kids. My parents didn't do anything with me.

Right.

Yeah, yeah. It's a different— it's a totally different world right now, eh? Like, it's a totally different—

eh?

Can't tell I'm Canadian. It's, it's, it's a totally different culture that we live in. And I think it's okay. You know, every other— not every other country in the world, but in so many countries in the world, we have like multi-generational households, people living together in communities. I shouldn't— don't think it should be that weird that we're building a community with our children. I don't think it's that weird. I think that there still needs to be discipline and respect and, you know, norms, but we can also have a great community within that. There's nothing, right, that says we can't. Why not?

So, so it definitely sounds like from a business standpoint, having, having that, I guess, that a clear onboarding process then as to what our our procedures are, our expect— I guess our expectations, really.

Yeah, I think the onboarding process helps. In organizations that are hybrid or virtual, it becomes a lot harder. You tend to have a lot less one-on-one time or, or personal time with people. So being a lot more intentional in those organizations to build that time in is really important.

I think you nailed it too. It's that one-on-one time, which is so important because that generation requires They're used to a lot of feedback. And not just feedback like, you need to work on this, but feedback like, I see you.

I hear you.

I saw you do that. I heard you do that. Just recognition.

Yeah, recognition is important. I think we all appreciate recognition.

Yeah, we're just not used to it. That's why.

Yeah, maybe not. Yeah, well, it actually took me a long time, like probably a lot of people, to accept recognition when it was received with a gracious thank you and not cringe and try to avoid it somehow or put it back onto the other person. Um, but yeah, this, this generation tends to receive recognition well. That's true.

Do they expect it?

I mean, that's probably a very individual question, I would think. I don't know. I don't know. Someone smarter than me would probably know whether, whether they expect it. Uh, I would, I would, you know, if, if we want to throw out a hypothesis, you know, we think about social media and how quick you know, the recognition is on social media. So I mean, I would expect that has influence on our kids too, for sure.

It seems like it. Like, you know, and sort of when I find, when I am sort of going into organizations and I'm working with that generation, that it's important to notice the things that they are doing well. And to, you know, again, not just say you rock, but give them specific, you rock because you did this. But it seems to, and if I didn't, and if I sort of walked in with sort of more formative feedback right off the bat, they're open to it. But as long as it's specific, Again.

Well, and in order to get specific like that, you have to know where they were comparative to where they are now, right? So in order to do that, you have to know your people. So if you know that someone's improved in something, and you can say, hey, that's awesome, you've improved, you can only know that if you know where they— where their benchmark was, or where their baseline was, right?

Yeah.

It's just like throwaway, oh, that was a great blah, blah, blah. But You know, people don't respond well to that. Nobody does, you know. But if you say, hey, I noticed you made no mistakes in that content, or you did the content like that content was perfect, you know, wow, I'm so impressed, you know, because, because last week there was like all this feedback and then it was, you know, whatever, whatever it is, you know, you, you got, I don't know, you got an 8.5 on your assignment and last week you got a 7 on the same thing, you know.

Yeah.

There's an improvement. There's a marked improvement. You can be specific about it. But yeah, if you don't know your people, you can just— all you can do, or if you don't know your kids, that sometimes happens. All you can do is give throwaway, kind of like, oh, that was great. Great job. Well done.

Very nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. You're right. Throwaways don't work on anyone. Okay. This has been really interesting. Before I sort of ask you my sort of big question, I just want to get like a good grasp on So it sounds like this is a generation that sort of doesn't have those guidelines. Is that correct? And then giving them a sense where they belong and expectations is going to be really important. And the communication one-on-one is pivotal to them to feeling like where they belong.

Yeah. And just even to add to that, I would say leaning into that idea that they are autonomous people, that they have their own minds, learning coaching skills, You know, being really of utmost importance because with coaching skills, you're asking them questions that help them think about things. Right. So this is why I think coaching is so powerful, especially for this generation, because they do believe that they are autonomous individual human beings. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great point. I love that. All right, Erin, let's, let's switch gears here and talk about Erin now.

My favorite subject.

So here's the, here's the big question. I'm always curious, you know, if you weren't being this entrepreneur running 2 companies, coaching, working with so many different organizations, what, what would you, what would you want to be doing? Or what, or if you could, if we could wave a magic wand, what, what other path would you have taken?

Wave a magic wand. I think I would be like, honestly, I'd probably be a nomad. I'd be a world traveler. I would just have like, I don't know, like a backpack on the road like that. To me, that's such a romantic notion. And it's something I never was able to do because I had kids when I was 20 years old. So I think being a nomad and just, you know, be— having your home in your heart is just such a lovely idea.

And so are you traveling the world, or you're just— you're— are you spending place time in certain places? Like, how do you— what is this nomad lifestyle? Or it's just— it's just spontaneous?

Totally spontaneous.

Totally spontaneous. And that's, and that's that, you know, I know you shared with me before, like some of the things you did early on in your life, like working with animals and starting a clown business when you were a kid, a teen, is again, that's, that's spontaneity.

Yeah, absolutely. There is, I think there's, I just love joyful moments, right? So finding opportunities, finding joyful moments in the world, I think that, you know, something that inspires you, I think is a beautiful thing. Yeah.

And scene.

Nice.

All right, Erin, where can we find out more about you and your organizations?

Absolutely. Um, for coaching and consulting services, uh, we work with purpose-driven businesses, so you can go to positivist.ca, P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T.ca. And the disability inclusion membership platform for brick-and-mortar businesses, with— it's currently AODA compliant, so building AODA compliance, that's accessibility For Ontarians with Disabilities Act. That is cludee.com, C-L-U-D-E-E dot com. And that one we are launching live in October, early October, and expanding across Canada at the same time. So that is a work in progress and very exciting.

Well, again, bringing joy. Congratulations. All right. Thank you so much, Erin. This was a great discussion about generations and how to communicate with them.

Love it.

Thanks so much.

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